(19 Mar 2023, 10:00 pm)RobinHood Freedom of information request on 'Whatdotheyknow' suggests that DCC do pay Arriva a significant amount of money towards Service 57/57A.

Arriva say the contract has ended, yet this local cllr is suggesting Arriva decision? Sounds like both blaming each other.

(19 Mar 2023, 11:05 pm)Storx Believe they're both technically right.

As far as I'm aware the 57 Durham to Kelloe and 57A throughout was commercial (it's all it was until a few year ago) until they won the 58 and extended the 57 through to Hartlepool.

Seems Arriva registered to cancel the 57 outright and 57A from Trimdon to Hartlepool but appears Durham pulled the plug for the 57 extension at the same time (now the 59).

(20 Mar 2023, 6:18 pm)RobinHood I think Arriva were commercial between Durham and Kelloe originally on 57 and Durham to Trimdon on 57A.

Kelloe to Hartlepool and Trimdon to Hartlepool (formally a 33!) are the contacted elements.

I think you are right though, Arriva originally registered a Durham to Trimdon, but looks like DCC have asked them to do something different whilst they procure the connection. All very last minute!

(20 Mar 2023, 7:26 pm)Storx Aye wasn't sure on the Hartlepool to Trimdon bit. It all seems a bit of a mess to me, the 57A surely would be the better service to be linked to Durham than what is since the vast majority of the 57(58) has the 22 serving it anyway or a frequent service to connect to another service in Wingate.

Instead we've got the Trimdon's with no link to Durham and people are living in cloud cuckoo land if they expect people to change onto a 2 hour service with no doubt no guaranteed connection.

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(21 Mar 2023, 12:47 am)Jimmi The timetables I've posted do seem to stress that the connections *should* work, in theory although I do have that bit of doubt about it working in practice... in particular when connecting between the 59 and the 58 at Kelloe when heading towards Durham, one thought is, what happens if the 59 were to be delayed? There's only a 4 min connection at Kelloe to the 58, if Arriva won't wait for the 59, then passengers are going to be booted off in Kelloe with an hour to wait until the next bus.


This is the notes on the timetable:

Durham bound:
When connecting at Kelloe, incoming 59 to wait at Aged Miners until Arriva 58 arrives, so 58 is aware of connection having been made

Hartlepool bound:
59 to await incoming 58 UNLESS Arriva tracker shows cancelled or severely delayed.

Timetables from Trimdon Times Facebook, amongst posts suggesting it's all about Tory Bus Cuts and petitions in relation to these changes.

(21 Mar 2023, 12:47 am)Jimmi The timetables I've posted do seem to stress that the connections *should* work, in theory although I do have that bit of doubt about it working in practice... in particular when connecting between the 59 and the 58 at Kelloe when heading towards Durham, one thought is, what happens if the 59 were to be delayed? There's only a 4 min connection at Kelloe to the 58, if Arriva won't wait for the 59, then passengers are going to be booted off in Kelloe with an hour to wait until the next bus.


This is the notes on the timetable:

Durham bound:
When connecting at Kelloe, incoming 59 to wait at Aged Miners until Arriva 58 arrives, so 58 is aware of connection having been made

Hartlepool bound:
59 to await incoming 58 UNLESS Arriva tracker shows cancelled or severely delayed.

Timetables from Trimdon Times Facebook, amongst posts suggesting it's all about Tory Bus Cuts and petitions in relation to these changes.

(21 Mar 2023, 9:54 am)Andreos1 Stagecoach did some council runs for Oxford Council that involved guaranteed connections. 
Tried it once and it was a disaster to be honest. 

Paid for my single on the first bus, clarified the connection would be waiting for me in Bampton and the driver confirmed.

Got to Bampton, could see the connection waiting. My driver indicated the waiting bus could move on and there was nobody to make the change. 

Obviously I reminded the driver I was wanting that connection - cue flashing lights and beeping horns. 
Fortunately the second driver saw this and stopped the bus. 

Absolute shambles. 

Think they were less than hourly frequencies too. 

My bus was continuing to Witney, so a connection could have been made from there, but that wasn't the point. I wanted some new mileage and had paid for that particular journey.

(21 Mar 2023, 12:27 pm)Jimmi I've certainly seen some timetables from across the country where there's an indication in the timetable that the bus will wait, usually for around 10 minutes after departure in event of the delay of a connecting/bus rail service (the Wednesday only 572 from Ravenstonedale to Barnard Castle has this in the timetable for a connection from the rail service at Kirkby Stephen).

Dalesbus and Moorsbus have similar mentions in place but I've had connection issues on both, whilst it falls under marketing and ticketing for Moorsbus, the 128 isn't really involved in this so sure enough once when the M5 from Stokesley was delayed, the connection was missed (was literally approaching the 128 from behind and it pulled away from the stop at Helmsley on time).  I almost fell foul to a similar occurrence on Dalesbus in the past where I was travelling from Ingleton on the 881 (Kirkby Lonsdale Coach Hire) where we would change to the 831 (Arriva Yorkshire) at Settle to reunite with the 830 (ANE) at Hawes to head home, only the driver on the 831 pulled away from Settle just as the 881 was approaching, fortunately in this instance at least, the driver came back to the stop otherwise we were either going to have to walk back to the station at Settle and use multiple trains at great cost to ourselves or stay on the 881 to Malham then get a selection of other Dalesbus services to eventually end up in Leeds where we'd still have to pay for trains to get home.

This 58/59 connection arrangement is not customer friendly in the slightest, all well and good putting that connections will be made but if it goes wrong in any form, it's going to be a major issue for passengers, missed connection at Kelloe to the 58 (1 hour wait for next bus unless you walk to Coxhoe), should the 59 decide not to wait at Kelloe for a 58 from Durham (2 hour wait for next 59). Many have already expressed their displeasure in this arrangement, including the likelihood that they've already faced cancellations with the current 57/57A so if a 58 which connects with a 59 should be cancelled, then its 2 hours wait for next 58/59 combo. There is also the question as to what would constitute a "severe delay" how long do we expect the 59 to hang around before departing?

Honestly, although it would take longer, if you live in the Trimdons at least, you'd argubly be better off connecting to/from the X12 & X21/X22 at Sedgefield, 58 & X21/X22 at Wingate/Station Town or change at Peterlee, these would take longer but have a more regular service although has the downsides of longer journey times and no through ticketing arrangements (can see the latter being a problem too).

(21 Mar 2023, 4:54 pm)BusLoverMum Hopefully it will work better than the Sunday 58 which arriva assured passengers of the old GNE 59 would connect with the 64 for the Arnison Centre then, on its first run, arrived in Durham just as the 64 was leaving.

That's the same company not coordinating connections so I can't see arriva waiting around for another bus company if it throws their timetables out or even if nobody remembered to remind someone...

(21 Mar 2023, 12:27 pm)Jimmi I've certainly seen some timetables from across the country where there's an indication in the timetable that the bus will wait, usually for around 10 minutes after departure in event of the delay of a connecting/bus rail service (the Wednesday only 572 from Ravenstonedale to Barnard Castle has this in the timetable for a connection from the rail service at Kirkby Stephen).

Dalesbus and Moorsbus have similar mentions in place but I've had connection issues on both, whilst it falls under marketing and ticketing for Moorsbus, the 128 isn't really involved in this so sure enough once when the M5 from Stokesley was delayed, the connection was missed (was literally approaching the 128 from behind and it pulled away from the stop at Helmsley on time).  I almost fell foul to a similar occurrence on Dalesbus in the past where I was travelling from Ingleton on the 881 (Kirkby Lonsdale Coach Hire) where we would change to the 831 (Arriva Yorkshire) at Settle to reunite with the 830 (ANE) at Hawes to head home, only the driver on the 831 pulled away from Settle just as the 881 was approaching, fortunately in this instance at least, the driver came back to the stop otherwise we were either going to have to walk back to the station at Settle and use multiple trains at great cost to ourselves or stay on the 881 to Malham then get a selection of other Dalesbus services to eventually end up in Leeds where we'd still have to pay for trains to get home.

This 58/59 connection arrangement is not customer friendly in the slightest, all well and good putting that connections will be made but if it goes wrong in any form, it's going to be a major issue for passengers, missed connection at Kelloe to the 58 (1 hour wait for next bus unless you walk to Coxhoe), should the 59 decide not to wait at Kelloe for a 58 from Durham (2 hour wait for next 59). Many have already expressed their displeasure in this arrangement, including the likelihood that they've already faced cancellations with the current 57/57A so if a 58 which connects with a 59 should be cancelled, then its 2 hours wait for next 58/59 combo. There is also the question as to what would constitute a "severe delay" how long do we expect the 59 to hang around before departing?

Honestly, although it would take longer, if you live in the Trimdons at least, you'd argubly be better off connecting to/from the X12 & X21/X22 at Sedgefield, 58 & X21/X22 at Wingate/Station Town or change at Peterlee, these would take longer but have a more regular service although has the downsides of longer journey times and no through ticketing arrangements (can see the latter being a problem too).

(21 Mar 2023, 10:43 pm)logidoodah Stagecoach Cumbria and Stagecoach North East depots have a 'guaranteed' connection on the 685 on all day... 
I have no experience whether this particular one works. Anyone tried this connection?

(22 Mar 2023, 7:39 am)RobinHood In all honestly, things like this are just the start.

BRG ending, £2 fare ending, ENCTS agreements likely now reflecting actual demand?

I can see another load of bus cuts across the region (and the country).

Authorities will jump in last minute with these odd and pointless connecting services to try and fill the gaps. I wouldn't be surprised if this is a short term fix with a longer term view being planned to start from end of June.

(22 Mar 2023, 8:20 am)wibblejunior A long time ago I believe there were dedicated timetables advertising connections between the X35 from Hartlepool and the X9 into Newcastle at Peterlee Bus Station. Not sure how many people actually used that connection though.

(23 Mar 2023, 9:24 am)Ianthegoon I remember going down to Hartlepool for the day, planning to use that connection on the way back.  However, I managed to finish early, so changed my plans, stayed on the X35 to Park Lane and swapped onto a service through the Tyne Tunnel before doing an SPD on the 80 from North Shields to Wallsend!  Think the Peterlee connection would have worked, though.

(23 Mar 2023, 10:07 am)Andreos1 Glutton for punishment! Even the most hardened gricer would struggle with that!

(23 Mar 2023, 10:23 am)Ianthegoon Yeah, I found that out the hard way!  I wasn't at all familiar with the North Tyneside network at the time, but I'd wanted to go through the Tyne Tunnel, ended up at North Shields looking for a route towards Newcastle that wasn't the standard Coast Road stuff, saw this thing called an 80 that went to Wallsend, so I hopped on it.  I did make it through to Wallsend, arriving some time later .....

(22 Mar 2023, 8:20 am)wibblejunior A long time ago I believe there were dedicated timetables advertising connections between the X35 from Hartlepool and the X9 into Newcastle at Peterlee Bus Station. Not sure how many people actually used that connection though.