(14 Jul 2019, 5:35 pm)Storx Is it really that bad though? Some right stat twisting going on here and I really don't particually like Arriva but for arguments sake GoNorthEast hasn't invested in the Northumbria region at all from 2013 apart from 6 solos at Hexham.

Least Arriva don't downgrade routes ie Indigo at Percy Main with second hand buses from down south which have never been refurbished.

The big 3 all have big issues if there's a limit of only after 2014 and E6. Stagecoach is by far in the worst position for lack of investment lately and also will be hit hardest since pretty much every bus they run goes through the area.

GoNorthEast aren't particular any better; 1, X1, 10, 56, 57, 58, Q1, Q2, 309, 310 just to name a few flagship routes affected.

I'd disagree with some of your comments. Whilst some routes haven't received brand new buses, they have received refurbished stock instead. It's totally irrational to suggest that every area could receive brand new buses all of the time.

In late 2012 to early 2013, Go North East invested in 13 high-specification double-deck buses for the 10 service. Due to service changes in later years there were not enough branded vehicles to meet PVR, but all of the former Tyne Tees Xpress Volvo B9s were displaced to the 10 group of services in September 2017, with same-specification spares allocated also, reducing the likelihood of anything besides a Volvo B9 being allocated, and to further meet customers' expectations on this route. The former Tyne Tees Xpress buses had internal modifications carried out to better match the specification of the native TEN vehicles (buggy bay added, Next Stop audio-visual systems fitted).

March 2016 saw the introduction of five new Optare Solos to Hexham for their minibus services, and also the upgrade of service AD122 to Optare Solos (from MPD), which were also fitted with Next Stop audio-visual announcement systems.

In late 2017, Go North East introduced high-specification refurbished Mercedes Citaros to the 680 and X84/X85 routes at Hexham, in order to replace Scania L94s. These are all fitted with Wi-Fi, Next Stop audio-visual systems and USB charging points, to upgrade these routes.

In late 2018; in order to eliminate the final two MPDs from the fleet, two pre-owned Solos were introduced to the fleet at Hexham, fitted with Wi-Fi to ensure consistency provided on all of the Tynedale Links buses. With Northumberland County Council contracts up for renewal in the next year or two, I would not be surprised to see the renewal of the Hexham minibus fleet, if these contracts were awarded for a further five years.

There has been continued investment into the services in the Tyne Valley, including on non-flagship services, which would otherwise ordinarily be forgotten about. The Volvo B9 buses on the Tyne Valley Ten services are ideal for the route and have no major reliability issues - if new vehicles aren't introduced to the route in the next year or two, I'd expect to see the buses currently allocated refurbished instead.

I'd also question your comment about Arriva not "downgrading" services... Hasn't service 306 recently been downgraded to Volvo B7 vehicles (from brand new Streetlites originally, then refurbished Pulsars)? Wasn't it a similar story with service 35 in Ashington? What about the X12 service which was renowned for having capacity issues in the southern section of the route at peaks - didn't this have all double-decks removed from the service in favour of single-decks? Are the Streetlites still "banned" from operating the premium Sapphire specification service 5 at Stockton, with lower specification vehicles being allocated in lieu?

(14 Jul 2019, 5:35 pm)Storx Is it really that bad though? Some right stat twisting going on here and I really don't particually like Arriva but for arguments sake GoNorthEast hasn't invested in the Northumbria region at all from 2013 apart from 6 solos at Hexham.

Least Arriva don't downgrade routes ie Indigo at Percy Main with second hand buses from down south which have never been refurbished.

The big 3 all have big issues if there's a limit of only after 2014 and E6. Stagecoach is by far in the worst position for lack of investment lately and also will be hit hardest since pretty much every bus they run goes through the area.

GoNorthEast aren't particular any better; 1, X1, 10, 56, 57, 58, Q1, Q2, 309, 310 just to name a few flagship routes affected.

I don't really use any services north of Gateshead so I can't really say much for that region. But I know most of the buses that I travel on with GNE are basically new and an upgrade would literally be the same bus on a newer plate (X21, 21, X9/X10, X66, 45/46/47)

I think what also makes a huge difference is the fact that GNE seems to actually maintain the interiors of their buses, whereas (from my experience at least) Arriva seems to just let the interiors go.

Like in my previous example, Arriva's 15 plate Streetlites that they have on the X1 are in terrible shape inside (at least the ones I've been on), the leather is dirty and ripped and the backs of the seats are all scratched, but if you look at GNE's 15 plate Streetlites, you'd easily be convinced that they were fresh from the factory.

The key thing GNE has going for it is the fact that they upgraded their fleet early on compared to both Arriva and Stagecoach, so there's no need to upgrade the buses themselves as they're still fairly new. Sure, the interiors may need refurbishing at some point, but underneath there's no need to change.

Having read about the LEZ again, it says

This table provides a basic guide as to which vehicles are likely to meet minimum emissions standards based on the date of registration.

Which could actually mean that as long as it's Euro 6 compliant, then it'll be allowed in, but I suppose it depends on how you want to read in to it. If it is the case that it only goes on the emissions, then GNE could upgrade the B9s to be Euro 6 compliant and be perfectly fine. And considering they've just spent a fair amount refurbishing the 309/310, I'd imagine that is the case.

(14 Jul 2019, 6:31 pm)Dan

I'd disagree with some of your comments. Whilst some routes haven't received brand new buses, they have received refurbished stock instead. It's totally irrational to suggest that every area could receive brand new buses all of the time.

In late 2012 to early 2013, Go North East invested in 13 high-specification double-deck buses for the 10 service. Due to service changes in later years there were not enough branded vehicles to meet PVR, but all of the former Tyne Tees Xpress Volvo B9s were displaced to the 10 group of services in September 2017, with same-specification spares allocated also, reducing the likelihood of anything besides a Volvo B9 being allocated, and to further meet customers' expectations on this route. The former Tyne Tees Xpress buses had internal modifications carried out to better match the specification of the native TEN vehicles (buggy bay added, Next Stop audio-visual systems fitted).

March 2016 saw the introduction of five new Optare Solos to Hexham for their minibus services, and also the upgrade of service AD122 to Optare Solos (from MPD), which were also fitted with Next Stop audio-visual announcement systems.

In late 2017, Go North East introduced high-specification refurbished Mercedes Citaros to the 680 and X84/X85 routes at Hexham, in order to replace Scania L94s. These are all fitted with Wi-Fi, Next Stop audio-visual systems and USB charging points, to upgrade these routes.

In late 2018; in order to eliminate the final two MPDs from the fleet, two pre-owned Solos were introduced to the fleet at Hexham, fitted with Wi-Fi to ensure consistency provided on all of the Tynedale Links buses. With Northumberland County Council contracts up for renewal in the next year or two, I would not be surprised to see the renewal of the Hexham minibus fleet, if these contracts were awarded for a further five years.

There has been continued investment into the services in the Tyne Valley, including on non-flagship services, which would otherwise ordinarily be forgotten about. The Volvo B9 buses on the Tyne Valley Ten services are ideal for the route and have no major reliability issues - if new vehicles aren't introduced to the route in the next year or two, I'd expect to see the buses currently allocated refurbished instead.

I'd also question your comment about Arriva not "downgrading" services... Hasn't service 306 recently been downgraded to Volvo B7 vehicles (from brand new Streetlites originally, then refurbished Pulsars)? Wasn't it a similar story with service 35 in Ashington? What about the X12 service which was renowned for having capacity issues in the southern section of the route at peaks - didn't this have all double-decks removed from the service in favour of single-decks? Are the Streetlites still "banned" from operating the premium Sapphire specification service 5 at Stockton, with lower specification vehicles being allocated in lieu?

Don't worry, I totally acknowledge what GoNorthEast do and it wasn't really an attack on the fleet, I wont argue about anything you've said there plus the improvements been made since they took Hexham depot over in general. However, I don't support Arriva at all and think they could improve massively but some on here seem to go on that the whole GoNorthEast is brand new yet Arriva have an ancient fleet yet there's not really that much difference age wise. If anything I'd guess overall the Arriva fleet is slightly newer than GoNorthEast but I could be wrong there they'll be close though. Yes I agree tho that some of Arriva's fleet are in pretty poor shape however and there's a few buses that they really need shot of; MPD's, the cadets, the commanders, the ALX300 etc.

Wasn't the 306 downgraded for capacity reasons tho if I can remember. Admit however the choice of bus wasn't particular great but it's just the same as 21 a few year back with the dual door vikings. I really don't know about the Arriva southern division though so can't comment down there.

(14 Jul 2019, 7:05 pm)Storx

Don't worry, I totally acknowledge what GoNorthEast do and it wasn't really an attack on the fleet, I wont argue about anything you've said there plus the improvements been made since they took Hexham depot over in general. However, I don't support Arriva at all and think they could improve massively but some on here seem to go on that the whole GoNorthEast is brand new yet Arriva have an ancient fleet yet there's not really that much difference age wise. If anything I'd guess overall the Arriva fleet is slightly newer than GoNorthEast but I could be wrong there they'll be close though. Yes I agree tho that some of Arriva's fleet are in pretty poor shape however and there's a few buses that they really need shot of; MPD's, the cadets, the commanders, the ALX300 etc.

Wasn't the 306 downgraded for capacity reasons tho if I can remember. Admit however the choice of bus wasn't particular great but it's just the same as 21 a few year back with the dual door vikings. I really don't know about the Arriva southern division though so can't comment down there.

It's quite difficult to compare the average vehicle age of "the big three", really, as their operations vary so significantly.

If it wasn't for Go North East's sizeable fleet of buses used on school and works services, they'd have a reasonably low average fleet age. It's the scholars fleet which really drag down the average fleet age, although any further acquisition of newer pre-owned buses will help even this back out. They've also lost a small number of contracts, Go North East's MD Martijn Gilbert confirmed recently on Social Media, so this will help somewhat too.

In terms of frontline service work, without looking into it at any sort of detail (although I'm sure someone will), I'd imagine that Arriva and Go North East are roughly the same and Stagecoach to be a little older?

I'd be shocked if the change of vehicle allocation on service 306 was capacity-related, although that may have been a nice line to defend it at some point. I don't think there's any service along the Coast Road corridor that's overcrowded, even those which operate(d) with single-decks, as quite frankly there's too many buses out there to be over-crowded.

I've taken my eye off the ball somewhat with the bus scene in the North East over the last year or so, but my understanding was that the VDL Geminis on service X12 were needed by Arriva Yorkshire, so they were replaced with "MAX" specification VDL Pulsars (from services 52/54), which were in turn replaced by Streetlites (from service 306), with the surplus "MAX" specification ex-London Volvo B7s filling the void on service 306 (released from Ashington following the acquisition of a small batch of E400 from Yorkshire). There was also a direct swap between services 23 and 52/54, if memory serves, with the Streetlites going to Jesmond and Pulsars going to Durham.

Although I've said that I think Stagecoach's fleet is probably a little bit older in terms of those vehicles entering Newcastle City Centre's proposed air quality zone, aren't the MAN Enviro300s 24101 - 24115 receiving modifications to make them meet Euro 6 standard emissions? The trio already at Newcastle have been confirmed, and I'm sure there were some comments about the examples still at Stockton being done too? I don't know for sure, but if this is the case, I'd imagine 24101-12 to join the Newcastle fleet later this year following Stockton's receipt of new Enviro200MMC vehicles for services 36/37/38, in order to oust some of the non-compliant MAN ALX300s?

(14 Jul 2019, 7:28 pm)Dan

It's quite difficult to compare the average vehicle age of "the big three", really, as their operations vary so significantly.

If it wasn't for Go North East's sizeable fleet of buses used on school and works services, they'd have a reasonably low average fleet age. It's the scholars fleet which really drag down the average fleet age, although any further acquisition of newer pre-owned buses will help even this back out. They've also lost a small number of contracts, Go North East's MD Martijn Gilbert confirmed recently on Social Media, so this will help somewhat too.

In terms of frontline service work, without looking into it at any sort of detail (although I'm sure someone will), I'd imagine that Arriva and Go North East are roughly the same and Stagecoach to be a little older?

I'd be shocked if the change of vehicle allocation on service 306 was capacity-related, although that may have been a nice line to defend it at some point. I don't think there's any service along the Coast Road corridor that's overcrowded, even those which operate(d) with single-decks, as quite frankly there's too many buses out there to be over-crowded.

I've taken my eye off the ball somewhat with the bus scene in the North East over the last year or so, but my understanding was that the VDL Geminis on service X12 were needed by Arriva Yorkshire, so they were replaced with "MAX" specification VDL Pulsars (from services 52/54), which were in turn replaced by Streetlites (from service 306), with the surplus "MAX" specification ex-London Volvo B7s filling the void on service 306 (released from Ashington following the acquisition of a small batch of E400 from Yorkshire). There was also a direct swap between services 23 and 52/54, if memory serves, with the Streetlites going to Jesmond and Pulsars going to Durham.

Although I've said that I think Stagecoach's fleet is probably a little bit older in terms of those vehicles entering Newcastle City Centre's proposed air quality zone, aren't the MAN Enviro300s 24101 - 24115 receiving modifications to make them meet Euro 6 standard emissions? The trio already at Newcastle have been confirmed, and I'm sure there were some comments about the examples still at Stockton being done too? I don't know for sure, but if this is the case, I'd imagine 24101-12 to join the Newcastle fleet later this year following Stockton's receipt of new Enviro200MMC vehicles for services 36/37/38, in order to oust some of the non-compliant MAN ALX300s?

After a few seconds in Excel, it seems that GNE's fleet is on average a year newer than both Arriva and Stagecoach, that's without taking into account the scholars etc. but I can't be bothered to work it all out properly so it doesn't take into account scholars etc.

GNE: 8.5 years

Arriva: 10 years

Stagecoach: 9.3 years

(14 Jul 2019, 7:28 pm)Dan

It's quite difficult to compare the average vehicle age of "the big three", really, as their operations vary so significantly.

If it wasn't for Go North East's sizeable fleet of buses used on school and works services, they'd have a reasonably low average fleet age. It's the scholars fleet which really drag down the average fleet age, although any further acquisition of newer pre-owned buses will help even this back out. They've also lost a small number of contracts, Go North East's MD Martijn Gilbert confirmed recently on Social Media, so this will help somewhat too.

In terms of frontline service work, without looking into it at any sort of detail (although I'm sure someone will), I'd imagine that Arriva and Go North East are roughly the same and Stagecoach to be a little older?

I'd be shocked if the change of vehicle allocation on service 306 was capacity-related, although that may have been a nice line to defend it at some point. I don't think there's any service along the Coast Road corridor that's overcrowded, even those which operate(d) with single-decks, as quite frankly there's too many buses out there to be over-crowded.

I've taken my eye off the ball somewhat with the bus scene in the North East over the last year or so, but my understanding was that the VDL Geminis on service X12 were needed by Arriva Yorkshire, so they were replaced with "MAX" specification VDL Pulsars (from services 52/54), which were in turn replaced by Streetlites (from service 306), with the surplus "MAX" specification ex-London Volvo B7s filling the void on service 306 (released from Ashington following the acquisition of a small batch of E400 from Yorkshire). There was also a direct swap between services 23 and 52/54, if memory serves, with the Streetlites going to Jesmond and Pulsars going to Durham.

Although I've said that I think Stagecoach's fleet is probably a little bit older in terms of those vehicles entering Newcastle City Centre's proposed air quality zone, aren't the MAN Enviro300s 24101 - 24115 receiving modifications to make them meet Euro 6 standard emissions? The trio already at Newcastle have been confirmed, and I'm sure there were some comments about the examples still at Stockton being done too? I don't know for sure, but if this is the case, I'd imagine 24101-12 to join the Newcastle fleet later this year following Stockton's receipt of new Enviro200MMC vehicles for services 36/37/38, in order to oust some of the non-compliant MAN ALX300s?

(14 Jul 2019, 8:24 pm)Jimmi IIRC, the VDL Gemini's transferred to Yorkshire to in turn upgrade service X15 to have younger buses whilst at the same time it was decided to downgrade to some extents the X12 to pretty much full Pulsar operation as the decker capacity was no longer really required with the loss of student traffic between Uni campuses in Durham and Teesside as it's all in Durham now in return Jesmond got the ex London MAX Volvo B7TLs displaced from Ashington, think even before this there was at least one decker turn on the 306 for some reason.

I believe the X12 still has one or two Double Deckers allocated...

(14 Jul 2019, 6:39 pm)streetdeckfan

I don't really use any services north of Gateshead so I can't really say much for that region. But I know most of the buses that I travel on with GNE are basically new and an upgrade would literally be the same bus on a newer plate (X21, 21, X9/X10, X66, 45/46/47)

I think what also makes a huge difference is the fact that GNE seems to actually maintain the interiors of their buses, whereas (from my experience at least) Arriva seems to just let the interiors go.

Like in my previous example, Arriva's 15 plate Streetlites that they have on the X1 are in terrible shape inside (at least the ones I've been on), the leather is dirty and ripped and the backs of the seats are all scratched, but if you look at GNE's 15 plate Streetlites, you'd easily be convinced that they were fresh from the factory.

The key thing GNE has going for it is the fact that they upgraded their fleet early on compared to both Arriva and Stagecoach, so there's no need to upgrade the buses themselves as they're still fairly new. Sure, the interiors may need refurbishing at some point, but underneath there's no need to change.

Having read about the LEZ again, it says

This table provides a basic guide as to which vehicles are likely to meet minimum emissions standards based on the date of registration.

Which could actually mean that as long as it's Euro 6 compliant, then it'll be allowed in, but I suppose it depends on how you want to read in to it. If it is the case that it only goes on the emissions, then GNE could upgrade the B9s to be Euro 6 compliant and be perfectly fine. And considering they've just spent a fair amount refurbishing the 309/310, I'd imagine that is the case.

At least some of the difference in internal condition between GNE's and ANE's streetlites can be attributed to the communities they serve. Look around a bus in Rowlands Gill or Shildon and there's a whole different profile of passenger. There's a lot of antisocial behaviour on buses in the darlo area and some parts of Co Durham by a lot of people who don't give a fig how their behaviour affects others. And if we're going to compare similar routes, the X21 gets every bit as sticky and litter strewn as the 6, if not worse.

(14 Jul 2019, 9:10 pm)BusLoverMum

At least some of the difference in internal condition between GNE's and ANE's streetlites can be attributed to the communities they serve. Look around a bus in Rowlands Gill or Shildon and there's a whole different profile of passenger. There's a lot of antisocial behaviour on buses in the darlo area and some parts of Co Durham by a lot of people who don't give a fig how their behaviour affects others. And if we're going to compare similar routes, the X21 gets every bit as sticky and litter strewn as the 6, if not worse.

I lived up there most of my life before moving down to Durham and witnessed some pretty bad things on the buses. Granted, most of it was on the scholars services, but the one thing that always stands out is one time someone ripped down the bulb from one of the lights upstairs and just walked off the bus with it. It was one of the old florescent tubes so if that'd smashed it wouldn't have been a pretty sight. There was regularly people smoking (and not just cigarettes). I've actually seen a lot less anti social behaviour on buses since I moved down here.

As for the X21 vs the 6, from my experience the 6 is usually a lot cleaner than the X21, probably because the fare on the X21 is cheaper for under 18s.

Speaking of Under 18 tickets, are drivers just scared to challenge people who are clearly over 18 and ask for a child ticket, or do they just not care? Because I've seen people I know older than me get an Under 18 ticket without any trouble

(14 Jul 2019, 10:02 pm)streetdeckfan Speaking of Under 18 tickets, are drivers just scared to challenge people who are clearly over 18 and ask for a child ticket, or do they just not care? Because I've seen people I know & older than me get an Under 18 ticket without any trouble

(14 Jul 2019, 10:23 pm)Jimmi From what I can see at least it seems more hassle than it's worth most of the time, only time I've seen it happen recently was on a Arriva 5 service from Bishop Auckland to Darlington one night when a load of teenagers got on and driver asked for ages of every single one of them, he refused to offer one a child/teen ticket whatever on the basis that this one had cigarettes on him, seemingly hadn't been thought he might be underage smoking, the result was a load of tension between the driver and the teenager plus his friends which made for a very uncomfortable journey for everybody, turned out he was the correct age for said ticket.

See, with me being the type of person who likes to cause trouble. I would go out of my way to ask for proof they're entitled to a child ticket if they looked slightly too old.

(14 Jul 2019, 10:29 pm)streetdeckfan

See, with me being the type of person who likes to cause trouble. I would go out of my way to ask for proof they're entitled to a child ticket if they looked slightly too old.

(14 Jul 2019, 10:46 pm)Jamie M What if they have a condition that affects how old they look? What if they just generally look older than they are?

It's a can of worms, and the end of the day, why would drivers run the risk of publically embarrassing a passenger over a ticket they've said they're entitled to -- which is all that's required?

Once more, fake ID isn't exactly hard to come by. Young people on a night out in town find it easy enough to grab something that says they're entitled to be overage - the opposite is definitely possible. Why ask questions which you won't get the truth from in these situations anyway?

All of this is time consuming and neither beneficial for driver nor passengers to deal with, which is why there's revenue protection officers performing checks on random trips. They're there to wiggle out the passengers who are evading full fares, and I hope that we can see more of them on our buses at stranger times, not just peak times.

Ideally from a business side of things a pass would help cut down the number of people, however, having up until last year being able to buy valid U19 fares, can vouch for the convenience and lack of worry with not needing ID. It brought away the anxiety and downbeat "show your ID and prove who you are" situation, which can easily cast a bad image of buses to a young mind.

It's a tough one, and always will be.

I just couldn't bring myself to pretend to be under 19. When I was at college, I was given an 18 and Under day ticket instead of a Student day ticket so when I got to the interchange I asked to get it swapped for the right ticket

(14 Jul 2019, 10:53 pm)streetdeckfan

I just couldn't bring myself to pretend to be under 19. When I was at college, I was given an 18 and Under day ticket instead of a Student day ticket so when I got to the interchange I asked to get it swapped for the right ticket

(14 Jul 2019, 11:00 pm)Jamie M It relies on honesty, but even with oyster systems you can pass minor's passes between people who aren't entitled to them. By the time the driver has realised it was a kid's passed being scanned, the person has already sat down.

All you can do is reduce the need for doing it (cheaper simpler tickets) and then add repercussions for doing evading full fares. Revenue protections issuing more fixed fines and spot checks etc.

Maybe if they had more inspectors going on the buses people might be more honest. I haven't seen one for a few years now.

Well, I saw one during the Arriva strikes, but that was only because he was showing one of the Yorkshire drivers the routes. He ended up catching someone using someone else's concessionary pass even though the tickets were free, and then ended up getting punched when he confronted the passenger about it.

(14 Jul 2019, 11:08 pm)streetdeckfan

Maybe if they had more inspectors going on the buses people might be more honest. I haven't seen one for a few years now.

Well, I saw one during the Arriva strikes, but that was only because he was showing one of the Yorkshire drivers the routes. He ended up catching someone using someone else's concessionary pass even though the tickets were free, and then ended up getting punched when he confronted the passenger about it.

(15 Jul 2019, 6:56 pm)Michael I rarely see them on GNE, however i see them on Stagecoach quite alot.

I used the 20 service to Durham on Sunday, around mid-day, and two inspectors boarded in Dragonville to undertake a revenue protection check.

(15 Jul 2019, 7:12 pm)Dan

I used the 20 service to Durham on Sunday, around mid-day, and two inspectors boarded in Dragonville to undertake a revenue protection check.

We need them on the X21, I'm always hearing people upstairs bragging to their friends that they still get on with a £1 ticket.

On another note, I've always wondered what happens to the people who put their ticket straight in the bin when an inspector gets on, do they have to pay for another ticket, or do they just ask the driver if the passenger paid?