(04 Nov 2014, 7:21 pm)Dan I don't think the original questions have ever really been answered and this thread has more so been a thread where we have all discussed single/return fares deemed to be expensive or anomalies in pricing structures. There have - to my memory - been a couple of 'positive' posts regarding fares, suggesting that something has been really good value for money, but these have been few and far between.

As an A-Level Business Studies student, I have been taught that 'value' depends on the person and their financial circumstances. If I did not possess discount cards to entitle me to cheaper travel on buses, as a student who is not earning an income, I would find adult fares very expensive indeed. However, I'd guess that most members of this forum are actually employed, and that they would deem adult fares better value for money than me, in a lot of cases.

I think that the bus operators in our region all set high prices for their single fares and it has been suggested in the past that this is linked to the reimbursement for Concessionary Travel passes. I would also suggest that single tickets are very irregularly purchased though - not because they're expensive, but because most people who go somewhere tend to return at some point that day. As I said above, 'value' will depend on the person, so it would be difficult to suggest one way or another whether return tickets are value for money, but it's been discussed in the past that day tickets which offer travel between the same destinations aren't a lot more expensive than return tickets. I personally think that Go North East's day and weekly saver tickets - especially Route Savers - are great value for money. Competition doesn't always influence these prices as some routes have (or had - some now do) competition at all yet there are still great deals to be had. A recent example I can think of is the "919 WeeklySaver" (the new GNE service which operates between South Shields, Jarrow and Cobalt Business Park): this was priced at roughly £4 more than the cost of using the Tyne Tunnel tolls alone, before even considering fuel costs.

I think travelling on buses hits the unemployed the hardest - though I seem to recall a fairly recent government scheme being in place to assist those on Job Seekers' Allowance to be entitled to cheaper bus fares providing they're going to/from the Job Centre or to/from an interview? I think I first saw details about it on a Stagecoach bus, so not sure whether it was a universal thing or not, or even if it's still around...

(04 Nov 2014, 7:55 pm)aureolin See, I think GNE's weekly/monthly tickets are better structured than other operators, but I think all operators have increased too far too fast.

You're right about value Dan, but when fares are rising almost double inflation, the average cost of a weekly shop is rising, fuel bills rising, the value soon becomes lost, as the said person's financial status changes. The only thing that is going down, in real terms, is take home pay. If we look at the Measuring Worth website, between 2003-2013, for example. RPI has increased over the period by 37.94%, and real wages have dropped 3.21%. That's a huge gap, and unless something gives, we're going to have a huge problem on our hands.

Unfortunately Government policy has gone from supporting people back to work, to persecuting people until they're forced to work for no pay. In Tyne and Wear, you could previously get a Network TravelTicket if in receipt of JSA. A lifeline to job seekers you'd argue.

(04 Nov 2014, 6:49 pm)Dan As a general statement: I rarely check the bus operators' Social Media pages in comparison to other members of this forum, but I have seen more customers querying fares for Go North East than the other 'big two', and perhaps this is why this thread is primarily dominated by Go North East pricing anomalies. Having the largest network perhaps accounts for more pricing anomalies too, though I suspect Arriva's fares would be more regularly discussed if it was simply down to this. I honestly do think that if the purpose behind this thread was to uncover the reason behind the anomalies we have discussed, then someone volunteers to e-mail the company in question. We may or may not get justification, but I certainly believe that the Customer Service teams would pass the details onto the relevant department within the company for review...

(05 Nov 2014, 7:45 am)Drifter60 I think GNE singles can be decently priced.. For example £4.70 Stanley-Sunderland, is good I'd say compared to Arriva's £5.40 from Haswell-Sunderland on the previous service 24.
Day tickets can often to be cheaper on to north East. My only day ticket option with Arriva is a £7+ all zone ticket. Compared to the Buzzfares GNE offer. However Arriva's fare along Stockton road undercut go North East Mill Inn-Sunderland is £2.10 vs £2.70. 60p cheaper with Arriva- obviously this is almost certainly to attract custom along New Seaham-Sunderland area due to GNE's frequent services along this route.

That said GNE's simplified structure can be very confusing. 50p difference between TEN service depending if you travel 10A/10B. And Stanley-Sunderland, Same single but different return its daft really.

(05 Nov 2014, 7:50 am)Tom You don't have to purchase a £7 day ticket - they also have triple tickets. 

(05 Nov 2014, 9:16 am)AdamY As well as financial circumstance, value can also depend on location.

I live in Rowlands Gill, work in Stanley, shop in Blaydon and Metrocentre, and socialise with friends in Chopwell and Hamsterley. Occasionally, I may pop into Newcastle or Gateshead but the places I mainly travel to are within a six-mile radius of where I live.

I've already highlighted elsewhere how difficult it is getting to Stanley from Rowlands Gill, by public transport, before 8 o'clock in the morning. I need a car (or some other mode of personal transport) for this purpose. But lets pretend that particular obstacle had been overcome and a bus was provided between Rowlands Gill and Stanley which met my needs. Would I switch my mode of transportation? The answer - no. The reason why is to do with value.

To travel within a six-mile radius of my house requires purchasing a three-zone Buzzfare at a weekly cost of £31.50 (with Key Card) or £104.49 a month. In comparison, £50 worth of petrol lasts me just over two weeks. Now, one might argue that when taking into account the cost of the car, insurance road-tax etc., that the bus offers better value for money. However, because I need to the car to get to work and back, using the car represents an overall saving for me. If I had a wife and kids, some of the costs of owning a car might be mitigated against the cost of additional fares associated when using public transport. Ultimately, it may be cheaper to use public transport, but once you factor in the premium one is prepared to pay for comfort and convenience, the allure of public transport becomes less and less.

Going back to my example, I accept that boundaries have to be placed somewhere and that I am unlucky in this respect but, in my view, using the bus does not represent value for money. However, if I needed to travel to, say, Middlesbrough on daily basis, I would happily pay those same prices as I think it represents exceptional value for money.

(05 Nov 2014, 10:20 am)eezypeazy Which is precisely why it's so difficult to shift motorists out of their cars and back on to buses - it's a mix of price, the level of bus services, and the value (utility) of cheap, modern cars. No matter how cheap the bus fare, or how frequent the service, it can rarely compete with the convenience of having your own set of wheels outside your front door.

What tips it over in the favour of public transport is other factors: eg., it costs £12 to park for a day at the Centre for Life in Newcastle if you're catching a train. Or London-style congestion charging - that's now £11.50 a day, you've got to be desperate to take a car into central London!

(05 Nov 2014, 11:50 am)Andreos1 @AdamY

The lack of public transport on an evening, the lack of public transport on a Sunday, the lack of direct buses and the lure of free parking at the Metrocentre or in Newcastle (away from city centre or within the city centre after 5pm) - is the reason I take the car.

(05 Nov 2014, 12:13 pm)eezypeazy Newcastle and Metrocentre are well served from 0530 - 2330 every day! Even if you have to change once!

It's the utility of the car (and rising affluence) that makes the car more attractive.

(05 Nov 2014, 12:46 pm)AdamY How do you address this without, of course, abolishing free parking and introducing congestion charges here, there and everywhere?    

(05 Nov 2014, 1:03 pm)eezypeazy You've hit the nail on the head there - the simple way to discourage motoring is to make it expensive; the easiest way to encourage modal shift is to make public transport relatively cheaper.

But also, let's not forget that it's not just about pricing, In my opinion, we're just at the start of the digital boom - these days, people shop on line, and visit retail centres for a leisure time experience. We're seeing a structural change in retail that is starting to impact on the uses to which we put our town and city centres -eg., rising numbers of smaller supermarkets rather than mega, out-of town stores; growing numbers of 'service' businesses (eg., barbers, fingernail bars, etc - ie, things you can't do on-line!) in shopping centres.

If motoring costs continue to become cheaper, and footfall in towns and shopping centres continues to fall as a result of the changing marketplace, then it's only going to be external factors - such as congestion charging - that can change the balance.

We live in interesting times!

(05 Nov 2014, 1:03 pm)eezypeazy If motoring costs continue to become cheaper, and footfall in towns and shopping centres continues to fall as a result of the changing marketplace, then it's only going to be external factors - such as congestion charging - that can change the balance.

We live in interesting times!

(05 Nov 2014, 12:13 pm)eezypeazy Newcastle and Metrocentre are well served from 0530 - 2330 every day! Even if you have to change once!

It's the utility of the car (and rising affluence) that makes the car more attractive.

(05 Nov 2014, 1:54 pm)Chris Congestion charging is an interesting one, on balance (as a motorist) I'd be in favour of it.  For the most part I use my car for work.  Cost and convenience (and lazyness I guess) are the principle reasons for this.  I don't need my car for work, and there is no reason I can't get the bus.  I just need a 'stick' to change my habits.

A random musing - back in the 6 weeks holiday I had cause to go from sunny Winlaton to the QE Hospital.  The 69 was called for.  And it was excruciating.  Painful even.  Knocking on 50 minutes sat on a cadet as it winds its way across Gateshead at 20mph, stopping every couple of stops to wait time.  Never again.

Going home was a different kettle of fish altogether.  X1 non stop to Gateshead, straight onto an X66 to MetroCentre, then stepped straight onto a 49 to Winlaton.  The scrum dashing from the X66 to the waiting 49 suggested regulars do this too.  Seamless, although I appreciate I hit lucky with timings.  Best of all it took less time than the 'direct but around the world' 69.

The point, if there is one, is that I for one would rather change buses if it means my overall journey time is quicker.

On pricing, it did take my breath away a bit when the driver of the 69 relieved me of the best part of £5 for a purple buzzfare.  But on the way back, I felt it was good value using it 3 times.  For me, it's part psychological.  £4.85 (?) for a buzzfare is, in my mind, £5.  I've cracked a note to pay for the fare, and I can't do much (e.g buy a paper) with the change.  To all intents and purposes, I've just spent a fiver.  Weird, I know.

(06 Nov 2014, 12:36 pm)Chris The changing buses part didn't bother me in the slightest.  In fact, I was pleasantly surprised by the whole thing.  Granted, I did hit lucky with times (I never checked them before I left), but if I had to make the journey again or on a regular basis I would certainly go that way.  It was noticeable how slow the 69 was trundling along, whereas on the way back I was constantly moving (at a fair rate of knots on the Centrelink section too).  Maybe I'm just impatient, I just like to be moving.

(06 Nov 2014, 2:27 pm)Dan I'm very much the same, and have never really understood the hate against high frequency streamlined services connecting major hubs opposed to direct round the world services.

I frequently have to make journeys to Houghton-le-Spring from the Stadium of Light Metro station - I have the 35 which takes me right there, but this takes slightly longer, so I'd rather jump off the 35 and jump onto the 20 instead.

(06 Nov 2014, 5:00 pm)Andreos1 Not sure hate is the right word.

I have already pointed out my issue with the streamlined direct services and it being partly based on the impact caused by the 2006 changes.

If a customer has a bus, which is affordable and takes them to the heart of a city/town and that is axed and then replaced by a journey that involves at least one change (sometimes two) and at the same time, you are asked to pay twice the price for the privilege...

Those changes, don't just impact on the customers pocket though.
It can be (and has meant), people are forced to change plans, arrangements, social lives, shifts or routines - based what can be a longer, more circuitous trip, involving hanging around at interchange points, which quite often aren't designed for that.
Before anyone suggests it, Nexus, DCC or whoever else shouldn't be left with the bill to improve the facilities based on an operators commercial choices either.

The point Chris makes about hitting lucky with the X1, X66 and 49 was interesting.
I imagine his opinion would be totally different should the journey be done regularly, facing delays or missed connections during the rush hour in the morning or afternoon.

You may like changing buses; however people with kids, shopping, bags, laptops etc don't always appreciate it - particularly when (which is the point of this thread) they pay what can be, quite a lot of money to do so.
More than they would do on a direct service...