(17 May 2023, 9:48 am)streetdeckfan It'll be the same fiasco when they eventually pull the temporary reduced fare offer as when they pulled the temporary benefits increase during the illness.

Extending the deadline is only going to make dealing the problem that much worse, the more time people live with the offer, the more they'll be reliant on it.

(17 May 2023, 9:51 am)Adrian Plus if it is lifted in Nov 2024, it won't be Dec 2022's ridiculously high fares it goes back to. It'll be Dec 2024, which I assume they'll have added on two years of high inflation.

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(17 May 2023, 9:51 am)Adrian Plus if it is lifted in Nov 2024, it won't be Dec 2022's ridiculously high fares it goes back to. It'll be Dec 2024, which I assume they'll have added on two years of high inflation.

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(17 May 2023, 10:22 am)DeltaMan Like it or not, fares or subsidy required for fares should actually be far far higher than current or even 2022 levels.

Operators were NOT allowed to raise fares while they were receiving CBSSG despite rising costs and zero ability to grow passengers due to covid restrictions. I believe BRG only allowes for inflationary fare increases.

So there is a black hole now (hence recent service cuts and there will be a bigger one in 2024. You can't partnership or franchise your way our of that

(17 May 2023, 10:22 am)DeltaMan Like it or not, fares or subsidy required for fares should actually be far far higher than current or even 2022 levels.

Operators were NOT allowed to raise fares while they were receiving CBSSG despite rising costs and zero ability to grow passengers due to covid restrictions. I believe BRG only allowes for inflationary fare increases.

So there is a black hole now (hence recent service cuts and there will be a bigger one in 2024. You can't partnership or franchise your way our of that

(17 May 2023, 11:13 am)Adrian It's not about 'liking it or not'; it's about doing what is right to actively encourage customers to use buses. Skyrocketing fares will never do that, whether you try and convince yourself it's the answer or not.

As Andreos1 suggested in his post, you've still got the problem of the network not working for customer convenience, instead opting to best suit the operators.

The black hole is not there because of CBSSG and the rules around that. It's there because for the best part of three decades, private companies have failed in a deregulated market to grow bus use.

(17 May 2023, 12:11 pm)DeltaMan I never said I wanted higher fares. I pointed out where fares should be to cover costs. I am just being honest with myself knowing that to fix the problem of fares there needs to be honesty about how much it costs to run a bus service an how it should be paid for. 

Bottom line is that costs are up to 130% of pre pandemic levels and usage from an effective standing start after lockdown 1 is 85- 90%. That figure doesn't change whoever runs the buses.

(17 May 2023, 12:41 pm)Adrian I never said that you said you wanted higher fares, but you're suggesting it's the solution.

Buses, like other infrastructure, should be better subsidised by the Government. Good quality public transport benefits us all, but with the amount of money we pay into the networks, it should be elected bodies that control them.

All eyes are on Manchester at the moment, but I can see others quickly following suit.

(17 May 2023, 4:15 pm)Storx I still don't think buses are the problem it's everything else. People simply don't want to sit on buses going around every nook and cranny

To pick an example Sunderland to Durham to Bishop, 3 major corridors without any form of real express routing. This should be a rail link and would be in pretty much every other European country.

No-one and I mean no-one wants to sit on the 20 or even the X20 between Sunderland and Durham as it simply takes too long so pricing is irrelevant here so use a car. Once you have a car why bother paying extra for public transport at all you've already paid the expensive parts insurance etc.

Unless they invest in rail or metros then buses will always fail. Manchester is not a fair comparison as Metrolink is a strong rapid transport network and if it isn't served by that then there's likely a northern service nearby. It's very different to up here.

(18 May 2023, 7:36 am)Rob44 You see i don't agree. I think most passengers will put up with a long route.... its when that route takes EVEN LONGER when they decide to lop routes togeter.  Take the Q£ - when ive been waiting for this bus to the rigg it used to be packed heading towards Gosforth high street but now it goes via Jesmond its definitely not picking up as many passenger, but if it had went that way in the beginning then no one would complain as its the route its always taken.  Same with "new" buses. GNE x-lines - you get used to it, then ex London or 03 plate decker's appear on it and your going to think well this is carp!!  But if those ex London and )£ plate decker's were on from the start you wouldn't complain as you would have nothing to compare them against.

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(18 May 2023, 9:13 am)Rob44 all that's well and good but i got dogs abuse on here for suggesting GNE should curtail buses at Gates M and punter either use metro or have a single bust every 10 minute to Newcastle for the Conssesonay bus passes. Also I wouldn't fancy jumping on the 44 at the one stop in hazlerigg. just sit down then have to get up, get off and stand a bus stop akin to all the forces of nature waiting for the " 10 minute frequency service" to arrive, know that in reality the gap will be longer, 3 will turn up at once and at peak time they probably all be full ( see GNE21).

(18 May 2023, 9:44 am)Storx The thing is they wouldn't be full though as they wouldn't go any further than Great Park where you'd have a proper interchange. That would be a tram/metro btw through Gosforth. One core bus route would never work.

It happens pretty much everywhere, even in London.

Just to pick Ealing Broadway, https://content.tfl.gov.uk/bus-route-maps/ealing-broadway-a4-290423.pdf

You can see it working there with all the 'E' services which are the 'Ealing Broadway' Local Services. Most of them are every 10 minutes or so aswell using Double Deckers and Ealing Broadway is one of hell bloody busy Tube Station.

It'll freak people out up here as they're not used to it but long term it's much much better than now. Not to mention you'd actually have less vehicles / drivers so less cancellations and since they stay away from the traffic less delays.

Washington Galleries to Newcastle via Concord and Heworth is the one which should be built though and would work imo, it pretty much does it anyway bar it connects to the X1 instead which is undesirable. Then you can start having debates about scrapping the likes of the 25 and having a more frequent bus to Washington Galleries from Barley Mow etc and connecting to the new tram/train. I'd prefer that personally if I lived there as an hourly bus service is useless.

(18 May 2023, 10:42 am)streetdeckfan For me personally, I would only switch to a metro/train/etc. if I was continuing on for a significant distance, or if I needed to change anyway.

I'm not wasting my time faffing about getting off the bus, walking to the metro, waiting for it to turn up, travelling 2 stops, finding my way back out and walking back to where I could have ended up on the bus! 

(18 May 2023, 10:37 am)Rob44 TBH i dont disagee. But in reality where is the money going to come from and how are you going to get all the operators to agree to reducing they " money making" services and start runing shuttle buses?

And also you've got this up to so extenet already with the metro. Regent centre was mentioned.... why dont arriva cutail buses there and punter use the merto. same as X10 to town, stops at heworth turn it there.  21 turn it at Gateshead. Buses from winlation/ ryton, tunr them at blaydon and use the train to central.

(18 May 2023, 10:42 am)streetdeckfan For me personally, I would only switch to a metro/train/etc. if I was continuing on for a significant distance, or if I needed to change anyway.

I'm not wasting my time faffing about getting off the bus, walking to the metro, waiting for it to turn up, travelling 2 stops, finding my way back out and walking back to where I could have ended up on the bus!

(18 May 2023, 11:57 am)Andreos1 But that's exactly what the majority have now. 2 or 3 buses just to get to a location down the road.
Often heading in the wrong direction to get to the destination.

Birtley to Team Valley being one glaringly obvious example.

(18 May 2023, 10:37 am)Rob44 TBH i dont disagee. But in reality where is the money going to come from and how are you going to get all the operators to agree to reducing they " money making" services and start runing shuttle buses?

(18 May 2023, 12:20 pm)Storx The X10 in an ideal world wouldn't exist at all if they bothered to sort out the Durham Coast Line, it basically duplicates it.

For the Regent Centre lack of integration is the biggest killer, there's a lack of ticketing between the two currently. There's also the big problem with fares. In the current system the bus won't make money from the 4 passengers from the Great Park to Regent Centre or whatever but if it was a full integrated system then you'd balance it out and look at it as a bigger picture including the Metro part of it. A bus with 4 passengers from the Great Park to the Regent Centre is a less of a loss than a bus with 6 passengers from the Great Park to Newcastle which no doubt happens. I'm not 100% sure but I have a feeling the Q3 through Jesmond isn't fully commercial but I might be wrong.

It kind of already exists in some areas though but it's not that noticeable, Jarrow is the big one with the 9 etc terminating there with a change and South Shields and Sunderland with most customers having to change there to get to Newcastle other than the X24/X34 which fills the gaps. The 4 at Heworth is another one.

Gateshead is too close to the destination though imo, any changes really need to be further out otherwise it kind of defeats the point. A Chester Le Street - Birtley - Low Fell - Gateshead - Newcastle is probably the second biggest corridor crying out for rapid transport tbf after the West End with the likes of the 725, 34, 71, 25, 28, 82, 8, 78 all connecting to it at some point.


That happens already though for most people, pick someone say travelling from Rickleton to Newcastle, they'd have to travel to Washington Galleries then change to the X1, there's nothing attractive about that; if they had the option to change to a Metro then it would change the picture big time. Alternatively you go for the model from Consett to Newcastle where you have to travel around every estate on the way and it takes two weeks. Neither are attractive to most people hence the high car usage in both areas pretty much.