Menu
 
North East Buses Other Forms of Transport Railways Blyth & Tyne Line

Blyth & Tyne Line

Blyth & Tyne Line

 Print Thread
 
  • 2 Vote(s) - 1.5 Average
 
Pages (6) Previous 1 … 4 5 6
L469 YVK



3,549
23 Feb 2024, 2:49 pm #101
Reply
Reply
As for Bedlington Station......if Arriva re-routed the X21 back via Hartford Road (40 mins instead of 45 via Nedderton), would only be 8 minutes slower than the train.

Also, could there be scope for the X9 route to do the X10 route between Shankhouse & Newcastle? Again, could make it competitive from Bebside.

Only issue with both of the above is which secondary services could pick up the slack
L469 YVK
23 Feb 2024, 2:49 pm #101

As for Bedlington Station......if Arriva re-routed the X21 back via Hartford Road (40 mins instead of 45 via Nedderton), would only be 8 minutes slower than the train.

Also, could there be scope for the X9 route to do the X10 route between Shankhouse & Newcastle? Again, could make it competitive from Bebside.

Only issue with both of the above is which secondary services could pick up the slack

Reply
Reply
mb134



4,147
23 Feb 2024, 3:02 pm #102
Reply
Reply
(23 Feb 2024, 2:49 pm)L469 YVK Also, could there be scope for the X9 route to do the X10 route between Shankhouse & Newcastle? Again, could make it competitive from Bebside.

Once it's finished I imagine the X9 will go through the new Arcot Manor/Foxton Mill (/whatever else the developers want to name their bits) estate which is going to be absolutely massive. The stops there are already very popular, so I can see that being a very busy section of route and I don't see any benefit in removing the service from it.
mb134
23 Feb 2024, 3:02 pm #102

(23 Feb 2024, 2:49 pm)L469 YVK Also, could there be scope for the X9 route to do the X10 route between Shankhouse & Newcastle? Again, could make it competitive from Bebside.

Once it's finished I imagine the X9 will go through the new Arcot Manor/Foxton Mill (/whatever else the developers want to name their bits) estate which is going to be absolutely massive. The stops there are already very popular, so I can see that being a very busy section of route and I don't see any benefit in removing the service from it.

Reply
Reply
Storx



4,575
23 Feb 2024, 6:42 pm #103
Reply
Reply
(23 Feb 2024, 2:49 pm)L469 YVK As for Bedlington Station......if Arriva re-routed the X21 back via Hartford Road (40 mins instead of 45 via Nedderton), would only be 8 minutes slower than the train.

Also, could there be scope for the X9 route to do the X10 route between Shankhouse & Newcastle? Again, could make it competitive from Bebside.

Only issue with both of the above is which secondary services could pick up the slack

Personally I'd be looking at getting arid of the X9 or X10 completely between Blyth and Cramlington, if things really did go Pete Tong.

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/55.12792...?entry=ttu - You could easily merge things together like that if need be.

With then the X9 running the X11 route into Blyth. You could even make the case of having short X10's aswell just running between Cramlington and Horton Drive so Cramlington isn't punished since there's no reason why demand will decrease there. With that new route there, your prioritising the areas which are furthest away from Bebside rather than those closest to it. Bebside station being served by the 1 or 2 to give links from the station to Blyth.

You'd also have the bonus of this new route giving pretty much all of Blyth a link to Newsham station for those who want it.

God help me for mentioning this corridor, you could even make the case for the fast Blyth to Newcastle bus to go via Whitley Bay instead, it's only actually a mile longer and the A193 comes in the direction furthest away from both train stations, Blyth to Cramlington is overbussed imo and if you lose a chunk of the Newcastle traffic there's a debate it's all needed.
Edited 23 Feb 2024, 7:12 pm by Storx.
Storx
23 Feb 2024, 6:42 pm #103

(23 Feb 2024, 2:49 pm)L469 YVK As for Bedlington Station......if Arriva re-routed the X21 back via Hartford Road (40 mins instead of 45 via Nedderton), would only be 8 minutes slower than the train.

Also, could there be scope for the X9 route to do the X10 route between Shankhouse & Newcastle? Again, could make it competitive from Bebside.

Only issue with both of the above is which secondary services could pick up the slack

Personally I'd be looking at getting arid of the X9 or X10 completely between Blyth and Cramlington, if things really did go Pete Tong.

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/55.12792...?entry=ttu - You could easily merge things together like that if need be.

With then the X9 running the X11 route into Blyth. You could even make the case of having short X10's aswell just running between Cramlington and Horton Drive so Cramlington isn't punished since there's no reason why demand will decrease there. With that new route there, your prioritising the areas which are furthest away from Bebside rather than those closest to it. Bebside station being served by the 1 or 2 to give links from the station to Blyth.

You'd also have the bonus of this new route giving pretty much all of Blyth a link to Newsham station for those who want it.

God help me for mentioning this corridor, you could even make the case for the fast Blyth to Newcastle bus to go via Whitley Bay instead, it's only actually a mile longer and the A193 comes in the direction furthest away from both train stations, Blyth to Cramlington is overbussed imo and if you lose a chunk of the Newcastle traffic there's a debate it's all needed.

Reply
Reply
L469 YVK



3,549
24 Feb 2024, 10:13 am #104
Reply
Reply
(23 Feb 2024, 6:42 pm)Storx God help me for mentioning this corridor, you could even make the case for the fast Blyth to Newcastle bus to go via Whitley Bay instead, it's only actually a mile longer and the A193 comes in the direction furthest away from both train stations, Blyth to Cramlington is overbussed imo and if you lose a chunk of the Newcastle traffic there's a debate it's all needed.
I think looking at the forthcoming timetables on Traveline, it might become a reality soon as I don't think more time can be added to the 308 & 309 without further increasing PVR. But that's another debate.
L469 YVK
24 Feb 2024, 10:13 am #104

(23 Feb 2024, 6:42 pm)Storx God help me for mentioning this corridor, you could even make the case for the fast Blyth to Newcastle bus to go via Whitley Bay instead, it's only actually a mile longer and the A193 comes in the direction furthest away from both train stations, Blyth to Cramlington is overbussed imo and if you lose a chunk of the Newcastle traffic there's a debate it's all needed.
I think looking at the forthcoming timetables on Traveline, it might become a reality soon as I don't think more time can be added to the 308 & 309 without further increasing PVR. But that's another debate.

Reply
Reply
Storx



4,575
24 Feb 2024, 11:13 am #105
Reply
Reply
(24 Feb 2024, 10:13 am)L469 YVK I think looking at the forthcoming timetables on Traveline, it might become a reality soon as I don't think more time can be added to the 308 & 309 without further increasing PVR. But that's another debate.

Aye I know this is the total wrong place for this debate - sorry but imo I'd always think the idea of an express bus say maybe Newcastle <> Silverlink - Cobalt - Rake Lane - Whitley Bay - Seaton Sluice - Blyth wouldn't be the worst idea. At the same time terminate all the 308/309 buses short at Whitley Bay, it's absolutely overbussed between Blyth and Whitley Bay and whatever time I see the buses during the day including peaks, the buses are mostly completely dead.

The resources saved by curtailing the 6 buses short would no doubt cover the express anyway. This would help the X7/X8 aswell since it's completely overbussed between South Beach and Blyth aswell. Not to mention they could avoid the chaos around the Spanish City depending where they're terminated.

There's more buses between Blyth and Seaton Sluice (8) than there is between Newcastle and Low Fell (7) now, it's absolutely bonkers.
Edited 24 Feb 2024, 11:16 am by Storx.
Storx
24 Feb 2024, 11:13 am #105

(24 Feb 2024, 10:13 am)L469 YVK I think looking at the forthcoming timetables on Traveline, it might become a reality soon as I don't think more time can be added to the 308 & 309 without further increasing PVR. But that's another debate.

Aye I know this is the total wrong place for this debate - sorry but imo I'd always think the idea of an express bus say maybe Newcastle <> Silverlink - Cobalt - Rake Lane - Whitley Bay - Seaton Sluice - Blyth wouldn't be the worst idea. At the same time terminate all the 308/309 buses short at Whitley Bay, it's absolutely overbussed between Blyth and Whitley Bay and whatever time I see the buses during the day including peaks, the buses are mostly completely dead.

The resources saved by curtailing the 6 buses short would no doubt cover the express anyway. This would help the X7/X8 aswell since it's completely overbussed between South Beach and Blyth aswell. Not to mention they could avoid the chaos around the Spanish City depending where they're terminated.

There's more buses between Blyth and Seaton Sluice (8) than there is between Newcastle and Low Fell (7) now, it's absolutely bonkers.

Reply
Reply
mb134



4,147
24 Feb 2024, 11:56 am #106
Reply
Reply
(23 Feb 2024, 6:42 pm)Storx Personally I'd be looking at getting arid of the X9 or X10 completely between Blyth and Cramlington, if things really did go Pete Tong.

I'm struggling to see how a train that doesn't link Blyth with Cramlington would impact travel between the two largest towns in Northumberland?
mb134
24 Feb 2024, 11:56 am #106

(23 Feb 2024, 6:42 pm)Storx Personally I'd be looking at getting arid of the X9 or X10 completely between Blyth and Cramlington, if things really did go Pete Tong.

I'm struggling to see how a train that doesn't link Blyth with Cramlington would impact travel between the two largest towns in Northumberland?

Reply
Reply
Storx



4,575
24 Feb 2024, 12:11 pm #107
Reply
Reply
(24 Feb 2024, 11:56 am)mb134 I'm struggling to see how a train that doesn't link Blyth with Cramlington would impact travel between the two largest towns in Northumberland?

I'd personally make the argument if you merged the X9 and X10 routes so it was something like: https://www.google.com/maps/dir/55.08589...?entry=ttu, what I posted before.

You're not really reducing the number of buses, most people only had 2 buses then, and they still only have 2 buses after. Yes there's less buses between Blyth Town Centre and Cramlington Manor Walks direct, but how many buses is there really needed? I'd imagine most people are getting on inbetween. It might help the X8 aswell since that and the X9 (current X11) would be the 'express' route between the two instead. The time savings on the X9 could then be used as layover on the X7/X8/X9 to try and get a grip on the mess of those services.

Heck you could even make the case for that new route being 3 BPH throughout and actually increase the number of buses for most people, it's probably a feasible move and would be PVR neutral if I'm right. Bebside and the 10 houses there have a train station now.
Edited 24 Feb 2024, 12:29 pm by Storx.
Storx
24 Feb 2024, 12:11 pm #107

(24 Feb 2024, 11:56 am)mb134 I'm struggling to see how a train that doesn't link Blyth with Cramlington would impact travel between the two largest towns in Northumberland?

I'd personally make the argument if you merged the X9 and X10 routes so it was something like: https://www.google.com/maps/dir/55.08589...?entry=ttu, what I posted before.

You're not really reducing the number of buses, most people only had 2 buses then, and they still only have 2 buses after. Yes there's less buses between Blyth Town Centre and Cramlington Manor Walks direct, but how many buses is there really needed? I'd imagine most people are getting on inbetween. It might help the X8 aswell since that and the X9 (current X11) would be the 'express' route between the two instead. The time savings on the X9 could then be used as layover on the X7/X8/X9 to try and get a grip on the mess of those services.

Heck you could even make the case for that new route being 3 BPH throughout and actually increase the number of buses for most people, it's probably a feasible move and would be PVR neutral if I'm right. Bebside and the 10 houses there have a train station now.

Reply
Reply
mb134



4,147
24 Feb 2024, 12:52 pm #108
Reply
Reply
(24 Feb 2024, 12:11 pm)Storx I'd personally make the argument if you merged the X9 and X10 routes so it was something like: https://www.google.com/maps/dir/55.08589...?entry=ttu, what I posted before.

You'd actually increase the number of buses from Blyth to Cramlington. If there's a big drop from Newcastle to Blyth then you wouldn't need 4 BPH doing the Cramlington to Newcastle section, and 3 BPH would be more than enough, run that throughout you've reduced the number of buses on the whole route but in fact you're actually increasing the frequency to 3 BPH from 2 BPH for most people, there's few negatives really bar the small section of Newsham Road being unserved and it's a slightly longer journey time for some to Blyth (but who the hell wants to go there anyway).

Personally if I lived on those routes, especially in the Cowpen area, I'd be happy with that change as it's positive yet reducing the PVR imo, I wouldn't give a damn about going around some fields near Bedlington or Boghouses, even if the train didn't exist tbh.

You could then turn the X8/X9 (current X11) into the direct Blyth to Cramlington services instead which might help those two services rather than the X8 kind of just existing as it does now.

Using current timings between points on your route, I get the following as times on your combined X9/10:
Blyth to Cowpen 7 mins
Cowpen to Newsham Road 13 mins
Newsham Road to Laverock 10 mins

Since it then also goes via Horton Drive on your route, that's another additional 5 mins between Newsham and Cramlington Shops vs the current X10. 

Total time from Blyth Bus Station to Cramlington Shops of 47 minutes. 

The X10 currently does it in 28 minutes, even the X9 manages it in 39 minutes. How is slowing the journey down by between 8-19 minutes better for anyone?
Edited 24 Feb 2024, 12:53 pm by mb134.
mb134
24 Feb 2024, 12:52 pm #108

(24 Feb 2024, 12:11 pm)Storx I'd personally make the argument if you merged the X9 and X10 routes so it was something like: https://www.google.com/maps/dir/55.08589...?entry=ttu, what I posted before.

You'd actually increase the number of buses from Blyth to Cramlington. If there's a big drop from Newcastle to Blyth then you wouldn't need 4 BPH doing the Cramlington to Newcastle section, and 3 BPH would be more than enough, run that throughout you've reduced the number of buses on the whole route but in fact you're actually increasing the frequency to 3 BPH from 2 BPH for most people, there's few negatives really bar the small section of Newsham Road being unserved and it's a slightly longer journey time for some to Blyth (but who the hell wants to go there anyway).

Personally if I lived on those routes, especially in the Cowpen area, I'd be happy with that change as it's positive yet reducing the PVR imo, I wouldn't give a damn about going around some fields near Bedlington or Boghouses, even if the train didn't exist tbh.

You could then turn the X8/X9 (current X11) into the direct Blyth to Cramlington services instead which might help those two services rather than the X8 kind of just existing as it does now.

Using current timings between points on your route, I get the following as times on your combined X9/10:
Blyth to Cowpen 7 mins
Cowpen to Newsham Road 13 mins
Newsham Road to Laverock 10 mins

Since it then also goes via Horton Drive on your route, that's another additional 5 mins between Newsham and Cramlington Shops vs the current X10. 

Total time from Blyth Bus Station to Cramlington Shops of 47 minutes. 

The X10 currently does it in 28 minutes, even the X9 manages it in 39 minutes. How is slowing the journey down by between 8-19 minutes better for anyone?

Reply
Reply
Storx



4,575
24 Feb 2024, 1:26 pm #109
Reply
Reply
(24 Feb 2024, 12:52 pm)mb134 Using current timings between points on your route, I get the following as times on your combined X9/10:
Blyth to Cowpen 7 mins
Cowpen to Newsham Road 13 mins
Newsham Road to Laverock 10 mins

Since it then also goes via Horton Drive on your route, that's another additional 5 mins between Newsham and Cramlington Shops vs the current X10. 

Total time from Blyth Bus Station to Cramlington Shops of 47 minutes. 

The X10 currently does it in 28 minutes, even the X9 manages it in 39 minutes. How is slowing the journey down by between 8-19 minutes better for anyone?

You'd still have direct alternatives between Blyth Town Centre and Cramlington though? You'd just have to use the X8 and X11 (now X9) instead. 

The X8 only takes 23 minutes between the two, it's by far the fastest of the routes and runs pretty direct and also serves the station - why not use this as a benefit? It's the weakest of the expresses anyway. 

In reality I'd expect that'd be the route that'd get the bullet anyway, why not use it as an advantage rather than it just kinda 'existing' like now. 

You'd also have note the benefit the other way, remember those in the West side of Cramlington or High Pit are currently stuck on the X9 route and have to go on a magical mystery tour around Blyth to get there.
Edited 24 Feb 2024, 1:29 pm by Storx.
Storx
24 Feb 2024, 1:26 pm #109

(24 Feb 2024, 12:52 pm)mb134 Using current timings between points on your route, I get the following as times on your combined X9/10:
Blyth to Cowpen 7 mins
Cowpen to Newsham Road 13 mins
Newsham Road to Laverock 10 mins

Since it then also goes via Horton Drive on your route, that's another additional 5 mins between Newsham and Cramlington Shops vs the current X10. 

Total time from Blyth Bus Station to Cramlington Shops of 47 minutes. 

The X10 currently does it in 28 minutes, even the X9 manages it in 39 minutes. How is slowing the journey down by between 8-19 minutes better for anyone?

You'd still have direct alternatives between Blyth Town Centre and Cramlington though? You'd just have to use the X8 and X11 (now X9) instead. 

The X8 only takes 23 minutes between the two, it's by far the fastest of the routes and runs pretty direct and also serves the station - why not use this as a benefit? It's the weakest of the expresses anyway. 

In reality I'd expect that'd be the route that'd get the bullet anyway, why not use it as an advantage rather than it just kinda 'existing' like now. 

You'd also have note the benefit the other way, remember those in the West side of Cramlington or High Pit are currently stuck on the X9 route and have to go on a magical mystery tour around Blyth to get there.

Reply
Reply
Andreos1



14,211
27 Feb 2024, 8:23 am #110
Reply
Reply
https://www.northumberlandgazette.co.uk/...ium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR3rnLGFc_u-aUuSMR1N9IE85HIjaUCFK20MazE5H1WW3O9v-AFRZyE9Ito#Echobox=1708960266-1

434 'branded' ahead of the line re-opening.
'Illegitimis non carborundum'
Andreos1
27 Feb 2024, 8:23 am #110

https://www.northumberlandgazette.co.uk/...ium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR3rnLGFc_u-aUuSMR1N9IE85HIjaUCFK20MazE5H1WW3O9v-AFRZyE9Ito#Echobox=1708960266-1

434 'branded' ahead of the line re-opening.

'Illegitimis non carborundum'

Reply
Reply
Storx



4,575
27 Feb 2024, 11:25 am #111
Reply
Reply
(27 Feb 2024, 8:23 am)Andreos1 https://www.northumberlandgazette.co.uk/...ium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR3rnLGFc_u-aUuSMR1N9IE85HIjaUCFK20MazE5H1WW3O9v-AFRZyE9Ito#Echobox=1708960266-1

434 'branded' ahead of the line re-opening.

Must be a new record that the branded bus is on the wrong route, 1 day after making a big announcement about it. A route where the bus is totally inappropiate for ironically.
Storx
27 Feb 2024, 11:25 am #111

(27 Feb 2024, 8:23 am)Andreos1 https://www.northumberlandgazette.co.uk/...ium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR3rnLGFc_u-aUuSMR1N9IE85HIjaUCFK20MazE5H1WW3O9v-AFRZyE9Ito#Echobox=1708960266-1

434 'branded' ahead of the line re-opening.

Must be a new record that the branded bus is on the wrong route, 1 day after making a big announcement about it. A route where the bus is totally inappropiate for ironically.

Reply
Reply
citaro5284



3,233
06 Mar 2024, 7:17 pm #112
Reply
Reply
Geoff has been for a ride already

https://youtu.be/y0VY6Q8C4l0?si=O9U4e990WzImofFF
citaro5284
06 Mar 2024, 7:17 pm #112

Geoff has been for a ride already

https://youtu.be/y0VY6Q8C4l0?si=O9U4e990WzImofFF

Reply
Reply
mb134



4,147
06 Mar 2024, 8:07 pm #113
Reply
Reply
(06 Mar 2024, 7:17 pm)citaro5284 Geoff has been for a ride already

https://youtu.be/y0VY6Q8C4l0?si=O9U4e990WzImofFF

Happy to be proven wrong, but from that video Newsham doesn't look like it'll be ready by summer (they must think so too, otherwise they'd have probably committed to a month by now). Makes you wonder how other stations, such as Bedlington and Bebside, which aren't getting whole new roads built around them are delayed even further.
mb134
06 Mar 2024, 8:07 pm #113

(06 Mar 2024, 7:17 pm)citaro5284 Geoff has been for a ride already

https://youtu.be/y0VY6Q8C4l0?si=O9U4e990WzImofFF

Happy to be proven wrong, but from that video Newsham doesn't look like it'll be ready by summer (they must think so too, otherwise they'd have probably committed to a month by now). Makes you wonder how other stations, such as Bedlington and Bebside, which aren't getting whole new roads built around them are delayed even further.

Reply
Reply
Storx



4,575
06 Mar 2024, 9:38 pm #114
Reply
Reply
(06 Mar 2024, 7:17 pm)citaro5284 Geoff has been for a ride already

https://youtu.be/y0VY6Q8C4l0?si=O9U4e990WzImofFF

Fares confirmed there pretty much since it's part of the Metro zones.

Northumberland Park - Zone B
Bebside / Newsham / Seaton Delaval - Zone C
Ashington / Bedlington / Bebside - Zone D

Be interesting to see if Arriva react as the Metro Season Tickets are substantially cheaper than their products, £1,090 vs £793.60 for Blyth and Seaton Delaval, for example. Ashington / Bedlington being unknown yet as there's no pricing for the new Zone D.
Edited 06 Mar 2024, 9:39 pm by Storx.
Storx
06 Mar 2024, 9:38 pm #114

(06 Mar 2024, 7:17 pm)citaro5284 Geoff has been for a ride already

https://youtu.be/y0VY6Q8C4l0?si=O9U4e990WzImofFF

Fares confirmed there pretty much since it's part of the Metro zones.

Northumberland Park - Zone B
Bebside / Newsham / Seaton Delaval - Zone C
Ashington / Bedlington / Bebside - Zone D

Be interesting to see if Arriva react as the Metro Season Tickets are substantially cheaper than their products, £1,090 vs £793.60 for Blyth and Seaton Delaval, for example. Ashington / Bedlington being unknown yet as there's no pricing for the new Zone D.

Reply
Reply
citaro5284



3,233
08 Mar 2024, 3:36 pm #115
Reply
Reply
Rail Fares for Northumberland Line announced

https://www.northumberland.gov.uk/News/2...xI9__B2_20&mibextid=xfxF2i
citaro5284
08 Mar 2024, 3:36 pm #115

Rail Fares for Northumberland Line announced

https://www.northumberland.gov.uk/News/2...xI9__B2_20&mibextid=xfxF2i

Reply
Reply
Unber43



3,550
08 Mar 2024, 10:29 pm #116
Reply
Reply
How are they meant to make any money from charging £3, I doubt they even needed 158s, two one car 153s would have done it imo
Unber43
08 Mar 2024, 10:29 pm #116

How are they meant to make any money from charging £3, I doubt they even needed 158s, two one car 153s would have done it imo

Reply
Reply
Storx



4,575
08 Mar 2024, 10:56 pm #117
Reply
Reply
(08 Mar 2024, 10:29 pm)Unber43 How are they meant to make any money from charging £3, I doubt they even needed 158s, two one car 153s would have done it imo

The Class 158's are for technical reasons not capacity.
Storx
08 Mar 2024, 10:56 pm #117

(08 Mar 2024, 10:29 pm)Unber43 How are they meant to make any money from charging £3, I doubt they even needed 158s, two one car 153s would have done it imo

The Class 158's are for technical reasons not capacity.

Reply
Reply
54APhotography



893
09 Mar 2024, 4:52 pm #118
Reply
Reply
To be fair I think the focus is out a little, Newbiggin would be a better terminus, but the blinkered thinking has put a dumb end at Ashington.
54APhotography
09 Mar 2024, 4:52 pm #118

To be fair I think the focus is out a little, Newbiggin would be a better terminus, but the blinkered thinking has put a dumb end at Ashington.

Reply
Reply
MurdnunoC



3,974
10 Mar 2024, 7:10 am #119
Reply
Reply
(09 Mar 2024, 4:52 pm)54APhotography To be fair I think the focus is out a little, Newbiggin would be a better terminus, but the blinkered thinking has put a dumb end at Ashington.

Or even Lynemouth to encourage house-building and growth around that area too. Lots of brownfield sites to potentially use which the line currently runs either adjacent or through.
MurdnunoC
10 Mar 2024, 7:10 am #119

(09 Mar 2024, 4:52 pm)54APhotography To be fair I think the focus is out a little, Newbiggin would be a better terminus, but the blinkered thinking has put a dumb end at Ashington.

Or even Lynemouth to encourage house-building and growth around that area too. Lots of brownfield sites to potentially use which the line currently runs either adjacent or through.

Reply
Reply
Pages (6) Previous 1 … 4 5 6
 Print Thread
 
  • 2 Vote(s) - 1.5 Average