North East Buses

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(22 Nov 2014, 11:04 am)Dan wrote [ -> ]See attached
.

wonder how many other methods these are using instead of face to face only....

(22 Nov 2014, 11:08 am)citaro5284 wrote [ -> ]wonder how many other methods these are using instead of face to face only....

Aye - makes you wonder, eh?

Must note that this session is for just two hours, and is being held on a Saturday, allowing little opportunity for commuters to have a say...

At least Go North East's upcoming consultation is being held all day on a weekday to allow more of a variety of customers to have a say!

It's pointless even turning up, if to only run it for two hours.

It falls into the same trap as GNE's really, as its assuming that everyone who wants to provide feedback, is going to be available on this single occasion.

It may tick a box on someone's objectives, but it certainly isn't doing a service to customers.

To put a positive angle on it, this may be a learning process for them.

Of course, GNE have not organised it, so it will be fine!

Apparently GNE are still in a learning process for their consultations - so, with this being a similar (all be it shorter) event, you would think the same applied...

(22 Nov 2014, 2:06 pm)Andreos1 wrote [ -> ]Apparently GNE are still in a learning process for their consultations - so, with this being a similar (all be it shorter) event, you would think the same applied...

I'd personally say that GNE lead the way as far as consultation goes, in this industry, in the North East. That doesn't mean it's faultless, but other operators and bodies appear to be taking some of GNE's ideas forward themselves.

I think any organisation can always learn and improve, when it comes to consultation, but it should be a continuous improvement exercise.

Maybe passengers should have a greater say in how consultations are ran? Obviously not in the decision making exercise, as at present it's commercial, but certainly in the way their responses are collected.

The issue being, that operators seemingly (in my opinion), make decisions based on a small proportion of the population and assume direct proportion applies to the return.

I know, you know and most other people know that you won't get the same answers from two sets of 5 people, two sets of 50 or two sets of 5000.

Yet as passengers, our services change, because 5% (as in the case of the 1/24) of the population think it should.

Three or four methods have been used and after a period, the method is adapted or changed - with what looks like, not many more responses than the previous method.

Rather than use one method and hope for the best, incurring the associated costs - to then repeat this as the changes haven't worked out, go for several methods in one go.
The initial costs may be higher, but surely the increased sample will lead to changes that are suited to an increased population, rather than assume direct proportion will apply - realise it doesn't and go back to the beginning.

When Nexus did their initial bus strategy consultation in 2009, they went to community centres, booked space in libraries, set up websites and managed to engage a quite staggering amount of people.
They listened, acknowledged and took on board what people wanted.

edit:
An excellent read.
It talks about sample sizes, how bigger samples give better results, direct proportion and much more.
http://home.ubalt.edu/ntsbarsh/business-...urveys.htm
If operators are insistent on going down the route of consultations, maybe they will take on board the comments of this academic - leaving passengers with a network that works and isn't constantly being meddled with.

I reckon circa 600 people need to be spoken to (using a 4% margin error and the reported population of Sunderland, 275,000). In the Stockton example, 83,000 residents equal a similar sample size.

Is it possible to get 600 people spoken to in an 8 hour day at Park Lane or 2 hours in Stockton?
http://www.surveysystem.com/sscalc.htm#one

Change the margin error to 1%, all of a sudden the sample size needs to be in the thousands!

This Stockton event is (I think) the 4th one, they happen every 6 months and are attended by Arriva, Stagecoach, Go North East and (usually) Leven Valley.

Maybe the documents attached below will aid people to understand what this is - a public meeting chaired by a retired Councillor (who is also an Alderman of Stockton Council and a regular user of Public Transport) with representatives of the major operators (Arriva and Stagecoach's Depot Managers are presently the regulars on that front - been nobody from Go North East for the last year or so and Leven Valley were surprisingly absent from the last meeting) plus Chester-le-Track and First Rail along with council officers from the Transport and Environment departments.

This is the 3rd such forum this year and it has been going for the last 4 or so years. The agenda is below - typically see a 30-45 minute presentation of what is going on in terms of service changes and infrastructure improvements designed to assist improvements to public transport. The rest of the meeting is a 'Question Time' format which sees members of the public able to ask questions of the operators and council officers about details related to public transport. Since the first meeting of 2013, this has been amended to enable people who cannot attend on the day but have previously attended to submit a question in writing before the day to gain an answer which they can then read in the minutes (the minutes for the July meeting are below).

Overall, it is a successful format and long may it continue - after all, the last meeting appears to have assisted the changes to Stagecoach's Stockton network from the following day Wink

[attachment=6126]
[attachment=6127]

It seems a really good forum actually. Structured and organised, with minutes being published. It's a shame no one else (to my knowledge!) do this.

In attendance today are:

Arriva: Richard McGowan (Commercial Manager for Arriva North East South), Paul De Santis (Commercial Manager, Arriva North East)
Stagecoach: David Sharp (Commercial team), Tony Shaw (Senior Duty Manager Stagecoach on Teesside), Chris Walker (Duty Manager Stagecoach on Teesside)
Chester-le-Track: Alex Nelson
Compass Royston: Andrew Carter
SBC: Chris Renahan (Transport & Enviroment Manager),

Not a single representation from Go North East - so any complains about the X7/X9/X10 are to be unanswered (again)

There will be a Public Transport Forum meeting on Saturday 31st October which will take place at the ARC (Arts Centre) between 10am-12pm.
[Image: 1793e6672e679d75e88d075f86d2b897.jpg]

[Image: 1793e6672e679d75e88d075f86d2b897.jpg]

The next meeting has been set for Saturday 6th February 2016.

The minutes of the October meeting are attached.

[attachment=7503]

Thanks for sharing Kuyoyo

The next meeting is tomorrow, Saturday 11th June. A new venue of Stockton Baptist Temple, The Square (just off Church Road), plus anyone on Twitter can check @connect_tv, @arrivanortheast or @StagecoachNE for live updates in regards to what is happening during the Question Time section.

Minutes from the February meeting
[attachment=7934]

If anyone wants to see what was asked at the Forum, go on Twitter and use the hashtag #stocktonptforum to see the questions and the answers.

As for the event, the new venue wasn't the best place. I actually left after 45 minutes after the topic of conversation was centred on the culling of the 87 and parts of Hartburn being left with either no service or a twice-weekly service.

(11 Jun 2016, 11:26 am)Kuyoyo wrote [ -> ]If anyone wants to see what was asked at the Forum, go on Twitter and use the hashtag #stocktonptforum to see the questions and the answers.

As for the event, the new venue wasn't the best place. I actually left after 45 minutes after the topic of conversation was centred on the culling of the 87 and parts of Hartburn being left with either no service or a twice-weekly service.

What were the main points around the discussion? Difficult to follow it from twitter, other than that it's not deemed to be commercially viable.

Out of interest - what are the age and gender demographics of the forum, from the meetings you've attended?

(11 Jun 2016, 11:35 am)Adrian wrote [ -> ]What were the main points around the discussion? Difficult to follow it from twitter, other than that it's not deemed to be commercially viable.

Out of interest - what are the age and gender demographics of the forum, from the meetings you've attended?

Basically, the 87 is being withdrawn between Hartburn and Stockton. This leaves Darlington Road between its junction with Green Lane and its junction with Birkdale Road (where the X66/X67 turns) and the stretch of road pass Ropner Park without a bus service while Green Lane and Hartburn village shops will have the twice-a-week 88.

As for age, about 90% of those in attendance were people who qualified for ENCTS OAP pass. I was the youngest person there.

(23 Nov 2014, 10:14 am)Adrian wrote [ -> ]It seems a really good forum actually. Structured and organised, with minutes being published. It's a shame no one else (to my knowledge!) do this.

Exactly. Just noticed this thread and seen the negative comments. At least Stockton Council bother organizing one which is more than the other Tees Valley districts do. And always gets a good attendance. Having said that they can't do much constructive regarding the bus services as they just say they've got no money.

Today's was a bit of a farce however, with the operators sat in one room and the public in another, and the Stockton Council bloke attempting to type questions onto Twitter in less than so many digits. Seemed a bit of a cop out for the operators who weren't put on the spot as at previous forums.

(11 Jun 2016, 12:38 pm)Cock Robin wrote [ -> ]Exactly. Just noticed this thread and seen the negative comments. At least Stockton Council bother organizing one which is more than the other Tees Valley districts do. And always gets a good attendance. Having said that they can't do much constructive regarding the bus services as they just say they've got no money.

Today's was a bit of a farce however, with the operators sat in one room and the public in another, and the Stockton Council bloke attempting to type questions onto Twitter in less than so many digits. Seemed a bit of a cop out for the operators who weren't put on the spot as at previous forums.

That seems a bit of a strange 'layout', if you like? I've not known many public meetings where the 'top table' are segregated from the public. I hope it reverts for the next meeting.

I agree. I was sceptical when I'd first heard of the forum (see above), but it does appear to be a good setup. I can't see why more councils aren't doing it, especially when they have the operator buy-in at Stockton.

My only criticism is the age demographic that Tony mentioned for today's meeting. I'd hope that it's a one off, and that most meetings are representative of public transport users. Not just by age, but by gender as well.

I don't think there's any issue with gender, plenty of women there. Think that was the idea of the Twitter to try to get the younger element in, but they said it was an experiment, and looks like however successful it was the idea was to have alternate meetings at least of the traditional format.

(11 Jun 2016, 12:45 pm)Adrian wrote [ -> ]That seems a bit of a strange 'layout', if you like? I've not known many public meetings where the 'top table' are segregated from the public. I hope it reverts for the next meeting.

I agree. I was sceptical when I'd first heard of the forum (see above), but it does appear to be a good setup. I can't see why more councils aren't doing it, especially when they have the operator buy-in at Stockton.

My only criticism is the age demographic that Tony mentioned for today's meeting. I'd hope that it's a one off, and that most meetings are representative of public transport users. Not just by age, but by gender as well.

That was part of today's experiment to try an online forum if you will. The chairman and two of the three representatives from the Council department responsible for transport were in the main room. The third member of the council, along with the representatives from Stagecoach and Arriva, were in a separate room answering pre-submitted written questions and those coming in via Twiiter whether asked in the room or from anywhere.

The age demographic is regularly the same - I am usually the youngest in the room.

Probably the most suitable place to post this, without creating a new thread.

Tees Valley CA have agreed to join up with the Urban Transport Group (formally PTEG).
NECA are already members.

Rather than create a new thread, I thought it worthwhile adding to this existing one

https://teesvalley-ca.gov.uk/consultations/

Details of the TVCA draft strategic transport plan and dates of consultation events.

https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teess...t-17520167

Will operators listen and do anything about it though?

(11 Jan 2020, 5:02 pm)Andreos1 wrote [ -> ]https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teess...t-17520167

Will operators listen and do anything about it though?

It's not new though. You ask anyone and you will always get the same answers. High frequency, low fares etc.

What they don't tell you though, the people who answer the surveys probably use the bus very infrequently and still expect a 10 minute service just incase they need it a week on Tuesday.

Unfortunately a business model like that wouldn't exist very long. Large parts of Teesside have very frequent services.

The TVCA need to focus on reducing congestion, making towns less car friendly and only then will the bus actually be a reasonable option for those who can afford to run a car.

Material increases in passengers will be default create higher frequency as bus operators take advantage of the demand. It's not rocket science, just basic business.

Imagine if the TVCA actually pump primed bus improvement, using some of Ben Houchens war chest? That would break the 'chicken and egg' cycle.

Labour are unrealistic as well. Moving buses back to local authority ownership won't improve things. The same number of cars will still be on the road - the same congestion will still be there.

(25 Jan 2020, 5:10 pm)RobinHood wrote [ -> ]It's not new though. You ask anyone and you will always get the same answers. High frequency, low fares etc.

What they don't tell you though, the people who answer the surveys probably use the bus very infrequently and still expect a 10 minute service just incase they need it a week on Tuesday.

Unfortunately a business model like that wouldn't exist very long. Large parts of Teesside have very frequent services.

The TVCA need to focus on reducing congestion, making towns less car friendly and only then will the bus actually be a reasonable option for those who can afford to run a car.

Material increases in passengers will be default create higher frequency as bus operators take advantage of the demand. It's not rocket science, just basic business.

Imagine if the TVCA actually pump primed bus improvement, using some of Ben Houchens war chest? That would break the 'chicken and egg' cycle.

Labour are unrealistic as well. Moving buses back to local authority ownership won't improve things. The same number of cars will still be on the road - the same congestion will still be there.

Buses have to be attractive, affordable, frequent and reliable.
Making a town centre 'less car friendly' doesn't determine whether or not people will use the bus. Particularly when it's a lot easier to do shopping online.
There's no natural order which determines a modal shift, based on a town centre being 'less car friendly'.

Town centres across the UK are slowly dying. Alienating car owners isn't going to save them.

(27 Jan 2020, 9:41 am)Andreos1 wrote [ -> ]Buses have to be attractive, affordable, frequent and reliable.
Making a town centre 'less car friendly' doesn't determine whether or not people will use the bus. Particularly when it's a lot easier to do shopping online.
There's no natural order which determines a modal shift, based on a town centre being 'less car friendly'.

Town centres across the UK are slowly dying. Alienating car owners isn't going to save them.

You are correct, they are dying - but offering free parking isn't going to change that.

It will simply move a proportion of existing bus passengers, who already go to the town, to the car (of which there probably are a fair few who luckily have a choice). In turn, makes the bus service less viable and the resulting frequency hit or ultimate withdrawal affects many, many more people.

Alienating car owners is the way forward in my view (and I own a car). Climate change will ensure that and hopefully towns and cities will follow York's plans. Buses, trains, trams etc are much more sustainable, they just need room to grow. Only then, will they be attractive, affordable, frequent and reliable (simply because demand exists at a level to sustain it all and congestion is reduced by removing cars from city and town centres).

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