North East Buses

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https://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/1...arlington/

Darlington ops haven't had much of a mention (jimmi aside).

They said to attract more passengers bus fares needed to be significantly cheaper than taxis or driving.

Nail on head

1498 broke down today next to the stone bridge near houghall college heading from Durham , must of been on the 56 or X12, causing one lane blocked causing tailback, should of pushed a bus length then it would of been in the bus stop lay-by

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(14 Feb 2020, 4:18 pm)Rob44 wrote [ -> ]They said to attract more passengers bus fares needed to be significantly cheaper than taxis or driving.

Nail on head

Passengers keep getting told that fares are attractive and value for money.
Passengers keep telling operators they're not.
Passenger numbers keep on dropping

Passengers keep getting told that to get anywhere, they need to adapt to suit the whims of the operator.
Passengers keep telling the operators they want a bus that suits them, not the whims of the operator.
Passenger numbers keep on dropping.

Something has to give. Surely?

At what point do operators turn around and acknowledge that a lot of what they're doing (not everything - some of it is good), isn't benefiting passengers and that is one of the reasons numbers are dropping?

At what point do they then do something about it and make changes which benefit passengers and doesn't contain the sort of spin Downing St would be proud of?

Self congratulary back patting can only go so far.

(14 Feb 2020, 5:35 pm)Andreos1 wrote [ -> ]Passengers keep getting told that fares are attractive and value for money.
Passengers keep telling operators they're not.
Passenger numbers keep on dropping

Passengers keep getting told that to get anywhere, they need to adapt to suit the whims of the operator.
Passengers keep telling the operators they want a bus that suits them, not the whims of the operator.
Passenger numbers keep on dropping.

Something has to give. Surely?

At what point do operators turn around and acknowledge that a lot of what they're doing (not everything - some of it is good), isn't benefiting passengers and that is one of the reasons numbers are dropping?

At what point do they then do something about it and make changes which benefit passengers and doesn't contain the sort of spin Downing St would be proud of?

Self congratulary back patting can only go so far.

I was one of Arriva's best customers up till a few years ago when they cut evening buses which I needed to get home from work. I bought a weekly ticket , £28 or thereabouts, and I contacted Arriva to tell them I'd have to make alternative travel arrangements if they made the cuts to the service. They actually said to me that they hadn't thought that people in my situation would not make the journey in by bus earlier in the day if they couldnt get home by bus!

I suggested having a slightly shorter route, having just a couple of journeys, using smaller buses on a night...but nothing. It was a case of if the council stop the subsidy, the buses are gone. End of story.

So I had to make other arrangements and although I have days out on the bus now and again, Arriva have basically lost out on all those £28 weekly tickets ever since. Other people must have been in similar situations too, but I'm a bus enthusiast who'd like to use them as much as possible: how do they or the industry genuinely think they will attract new passengers, when they struggle to hold onto the ones they've got?

Sadly one thing we are stuck with where bus travel is concerned is that it just isn't financially viable to operate services just for a few passengers. It's a nice idea but then of the costings involved, drivers hours alone, wouldn't come anywhere near the odd few fares realised. Then we need to look at the safety implications of operating such services. Running vehicles into danger zones just isn't sensible in my eyes, one smashed window can cost a small fortune to replace, a life, I don't want to sound macabre, irreplaceable!

A Shame, and don't please,take this the wrong way those who wish / need to travel on an evening but these are the cold, hard facts we are stuck; a sad indictment of how times have had to change.

(14 Feb 2020, 11:15 am)Storx wrote [ -> ]I weirdly have to totally disagree with this from north of the Tyne in N Tyneside and SE Northumberland point of view. GNE is by far by a country mile the worst. Summary of it from around here's point view.

Arriva
306 extension to Whitley Bay
*Pointless, could just go to Tynemouth to improve reliability. Marden could be served by extended 51A Mon-Sat.

New Blyth peak expresses
* Should these not be running all day? X8 needs split in Cramlington on that note, takes far too long to Newcastle for people in Bebside & Cowpen.

Experimented with later buses on X10/X11 (didn't work)
* Could've easily created a 43E out of this to make it viable but just came up with excuses when I contacted them. They later did the same with the 308

Not many new buses recently bar the few for X21/X22 but nothing downgraded.
* No new buses since, Blyth fleet needs replacing soon and Jesmond is a joke!

No big cuts to services in past 5

Stagecoach (Not really their area).
Extended 22 and 1 to Cobalt
* Fair enough
Seaside bus in North Tyneside
* Fair enough

GoNorthEast
Extended the 1 to Metro Centre via the world but cut Kibblesworth in the process.
* Only ran during evenings

Extended 11 to Newcastle (didn't work).
* Was an oddball as was the 57, better just having a streamlined 1 & 1A service.

Cut 309/10 to every 20 minutes.
* Makes sense particularly outside of peaks and won't be long before Arriva follow suit. GNE still run the 309 slightly more frequently to and from Cobalt during peaks as well as X39.

Cut 9 from Sunderland to South Shields (5) which then got cut altogether.
* Fair enough

Scrapped across town links with 58.
* Most prefer Haymarket and as mentioned before, new 311 coordinates better with 309 & 310 as well as extra capacity.

No new buses but Cobalt's refurbished.
* And to a high standard compared to the makeshift replacements the 308 got in exchange for the Hybrids.

Indigo / Little Coasters downgraded buses.
40/41/42/42A is about to get butchered - again.
11/19/40/41/42/42A only day time services since they've lost the night subsidies.
* Fair enough

309 last bus getting earlier and earlier.
* 2145 extended to Blyth in 2016
* Mon-Sat 1925 extended to Blyth in 2016
* New 1905 journey on Saturdays formed in 2016
* 2245 now runs on Sundays too
* Improved 20 min service between Newcastle and Battle Hill during evenings
* 2255 Blyth to New York re-introduced Mon-Sat and 2155 Sun & BH
* Extra evening running time & layover to improve reliability

No mentionable improvements to services at all. Literally I can't think of one enhancement to timetables.

I guess it just depends on where you live on what people think. The Northumbria Arriva has always been more proactive that the Durham / Tees division though. I could imagine people in certain parts of Sunderland not having glowing reviews or either GNE or Stagecoach depending on the area.

Here's my take on Arriva in Northumberland since 1990:

Berwick - Depot and bus station closed. Local services in the town given up.
Wooler - Depot closed entire operation given up.
Alnwick - Depot closed. Town services significantly reduced.
Morpeth - Depot closed. Town services significantly reduced.
Rothbury - Depot and bus station closed. Services reduced.
Whitley Bay -Depot and bus station closed. Town services significantly reduced.
Newcastle Gallogate - Depot, offices and works all closed.
Hexham - Operation passed to GNE. Haltwhistle and Allendale outstations closed.

Investment in a new depot at Ashington. But customer facilities at the replacement bus station are rather lacking.

Blyth still has the same depot and bus station.

Feel free to draw your conclusions.

Charles

L483YVK wroteArriva
306 extension to Whitley Bay
*Pointless, could just go to Tynemouth to improve reliability. Marden could be served by extended 51A Mon-Sat.
** It's still an enhancement, more places example from Blyth / Cramlington who want to travel through have an option on day tickets.

New Blyth peak expresses
* Should these not be running all day? X8 needs split in Cramlington on that note, takes far too long to Newcastle for people in Bebside & Cowpen.
** Maybe but it's still an improvement them existing they didn't exist before hand.

Experimented with later buses on X10/X11 (didn't work)
* Could've easily created a 43E out of this to make it viable but just came up with excuses when I contacted them. They later did the same with the 308
** It was more the inward journey that was the problem, it carried fresh air.

Not many new buses recently bar the few for X21/X22 but nothing downgraded.
* No new buses since, Blyth fleet needs replacing soon and Jesmond is a joke!
** They maybe old but GNE's Percy Main's depot aren't particularly much newer on the main which does North Tyneside.

No big cuts to services in past 5

Stagecoach (Not really their area).
Extended 22 and 1 to Cobalt
* Fair enough
Seaside bus in North Tyneside
* Fair enough

GoNorthEast
Extended the 1 to Metro Centre via the world but cut Kibblesworth in the process.
* Only ran during evenings
** My mistake there.

Extended 11 to Newcastle (didn't work).
* Was an oddball as was the 57, better just having a streamlined 1 & 1A service.

Cut 309/10 to every 20 minutes.
* Makes sense particularly outside of peaks and won't be long before Arriva follow suit. GNE still run the 309 slightly more frequently to and from Cobalt during peaks as well as X39.
** It's a cut to North Tyneside / SE Northumberland. Someone in South Beach or Verne Road doesn't care about the X39 not to mention the buses they lost to actually for these services in the past (The Centurion). Monkseaton doesn't have a bus to Newcastle at all now but that's out the 5 year window I said. Looking back earlier it's even worse.

Cut 9 from Sunderland to South Shields (5) which then got cut altogether.
* Fair enough

Scrapped across town links with 58.
* Most prefer Haymarket and as mentioned before, new 311 coordinates better with 309 & 310 as well as extra capacity.
** Haymarket true, it's still a link lost.

No new buses but Cobalt's refurbished.
* And to a high standard compared to the makeshift replacements the 308 got in exchange for the Hybrids.

Indigo / Little Coasters downgraded buses.
40/41/42/42A is about to get butchered - again.
11/19/40/41/42/42A only day time services since they've lost the night subsidies.
* Fair enough

309 last bus getting earlier and earlier.
* 2145 extended to Blyth in 2016
* Mon-Sat 1925 extended to Blyth in 2016
* New 1905 journey on Saturdays formed in 2016
* 2245 now runs on Sundays too
* Improved 20 min service between Newcastle and Battle Hill during evenings
* 2255 Blyth to New York re-introduced Mon-Sat and 2155 Sun & BH
* Extra evening running time & layover to improve reliability

Commented above with ** remember these are from a North Tyneside / SE Northumberland perspective so having 25 buses or 4 buses going along the Coast Road won't affect them. I wasn't attacking GNE there it's just genuinely what's happened in the area whereas you've got a major bias towards GNE.

GNE might be good in Consett, Hexham and Gateshead but in Sunderland and North Tyneside they've been butchering away at services for awhile now with little improvements on the main.

(14 Feb 2020, 8:29 pm)Storx wrote [ -> ]Commented above with ** remember these are from a North Tyneside / SE Northumberland perspective so having 25 buses or 4 buses going along the Coast Road won't affect them. I wasn't attacking GNE there it's just genuinely what's happened in the area whereas you've got a major bias towards GNE.

GNE might be good in Consett, Hexham and Gateshead but in Sunderland and North Tyneside they've been butchering away at services for awhile now with little improvements on the main.

I get your point. Yes the vehicles aren't exactly new on the likes of the Coaster but if you look at Arriva, you have 59 & 61 plate VDL Geminis running Blyth's "goldmine" routes (X10/ X11/308) plus any other ex London / Yorkshire cast-offs that pop up from time.

GNE have 8 & 9 year old B9TLs on the X1 (due to be replaced) and 7 year old B9TLs on the TVT (due to be refurbished) but in their defence, these are heavy duty vehicles and more durable than the likes of the VDL Gemini (would also say E400s too but they have come on massively over the years)

The Coaster is a very funny route as although it needs capacity from time to time (Metro off, Mouth of Tyne, Nice Weatheretc), it doesn't need it all the time and at least GNE are investing in these service with engine modifications. The Coaster also now has to compete with a very attractive 22 service betwen Churchill / Rosehill and Newcastle.

In terms of the 309 & 310, whilst a 15 minute frequency was 'nice', a 20 minute frequency is still relatively frequent and although GNE may lose out on some discretionary travellers, at least they'll only have the cost of running 21 vehicles (Cobalts & 57) on the road (rather than 25) when things are a tad on the quiet side.

(14 Feb 2020, 8:43 pm)L469 YVK wrote [ -> ]I get your point. Yes the vehicles aren't exactly new on the likes of the Coaster but if you look at Arriva, you have 59 & 61 plate VDL Geminis running Blyth's "goldmine" routes (X10/ X11/308) plus any other ex London / Yorkshire cast-offs that pop up from time.

The thing is people don't really mind as they were bought for the route. Interior wise they haven't really changed and haven't really shown their age so from a passenger perspective it's not really a negative. Not to mention the Max refurbishment which made them worse imo but that's another story.

The problems come when you buy new buses for the X10 then those buses go onto the 43. Then 5 years and those buses go onto the 43 again. The x10 customers are happy. The 43 feel second rate.

(14 Feb 2020, 8:43 pm)L469 YVK wrote [ -> ]GNE have 8 & 9 year old B9TLs on the X1 (due to be replaced) and 7 year old B9TLs on the TVT (due to be refurbished) but in their defence, these are heavy duty vehicles and more durable than the likes of the VDL Gemini (would also say E400s too but they have come on massively over the years)

Do they really need new buses or would a refurbishment do? There's nothing wrong with either of them imo and they've still got a good 7 - 8 year in them. Give them a mid life refurb stick some USB ports in. It's as good as new and a fraction of the price.

(14 Feb 2020, 8:43 pm)L469 YVK wrote [ -> ]The Coaster is a very funny route as although it needs capacity from time to time (Metro off, Mouth of Tyne, Nice Weatheretc), it doesn't need it all the time and at least GNE are investing in these service with engine modifications. The Coaster also now has to compete with a very attractive 22 service betwen Churchill / Rosehill and Newcastle.

In terms of the 309 & 310, whilst a 15 minute frequency was 'nice', a 20 minute frequency is still relatively frequent and although GNE may lose out on some discretionary travellers, at least they'll only have the cost of running 21 vehicles (Cobalts & 57) on the road (rather than 25) when things are a tad on the quiet side.

From a passenger point of view there's nothing wrong with the Coaster or Cobalts. The problem is in North Tyneside in particular is that's it. The rest of the network is a shambles, either subsidised and ran by GCT at night or just doesn't exist. GNE was always the dominant player in NT but it's debateable now.

For example you've lost everything from Monkseaton. Used to be buses to Newcastle plus the circulars (the routes with the first low floor buses in the North East). Buses from Blyth to Sunderland. Buses from Cramlington to Sunderland. The 17 is a shadow of it's former self (current 11). Anything through the tunnel. Every single service update for the area is a cut someway or another.

To be fair from GNE here you can blame Nexus as much as them for giving their routes to other companies who have a tendancy to run bread vans around. The next few years I can only see getting worse now GCT have the 11, 19, 41, 42 and 42A at nights and Sundays and their 'excellent' service. Could see the lot of them scrapped entirely as GCT will wreck the credibility GNE have for them and people who need to work Sundays and evenings will just avoid them.

(14 Feb 2020, 5:56 pm)tvd wrote [ -> ]I was one of Arriva's best customers up till a few years ago when they cut evening buses which I needed to get home from work. I bought a weekly ticket , £28 or thereabouts, and I contacted Arriva to tell them I'd have to make alternative travel arrangements if they made the cuts to the service. They actually said to me that they hadn't thought that people in my situation would not make the journey in by bus earlier in the day if they couldnt get home by bus!

I suggested having a slightly shorter route, having just a couple of journeys, using smaller buses on a night...but nothing. It was a case of if the council stop the subsidy, the buses are gone. End of story.

So I had to make other arrangements and although I have days out on the bus now and again, Arriva have basically lost out on all those £28 weekly tickets ever since. Other people must have been in similar situations too, but I'm a bus enthusiast who'd like to use them as much as possible: how do they or the industry genuinely think they will attract new passengers, when they struggle to hold onto the ones they've got?

If a few £28 tickets don't make up for the loss of other revenue, it is a no go, though. It likely costs mNy times more than £28 to run a bus for half an hour.

Reading all that's been posted I can't help, among other things, and opinions, harking back to my younger years, when, from what I remember, we enjoyed a bus service par excellent. A network of depots (United) covered my area, an area stretching from Scarborough in the south up to say Stockton then out across to Richmond. Each depot had it's dedicated fleet of vehicles to cope with the requirements of its services led by a manager and maintainance team with of course the drivers, and yes I remember conductors, who operated a damm fine service which invariably ran to time; there was always "spare" drivers and the luxury of spare vehicles, not that they were needed very often. I could go on.
One particular part of this operation/network stands out in my mind, it was close to home. A "spiders web" of buses operated services across from Loftus (depot) to Redcar (depot), up to Lingdale and down to Saltburn. We had East Cleveland covered with a half hourly service that ran through from 6am to 11pm, connected, in the proper definition of the word and with just a little imagination, provided further opportunities to travel to Middlesbrough and Whitby, it worked and was effective
Then of course we had the end of United didn't we? The slow (and painful) transition through Tees and District and to Arriva with its cost cutting measures headed under the banner of making things more efficient. I fail to see just how when what we had worked so well. I'll leave it there for now, if anyone would care to share, add to what I say then please feel free. Thank you.

(13 Feb 2020, 10:34 am)scanialover wrote [ -> ]A question? Has service 63 always operated the same route, Redcar to Middlesbrough? My recollection, and certainly photos that I've seen, tell me that this route has been operated by double deck vehicles and if I'm correct here, how did they manage the low bridge between Ormesby and Stewart's Park (Martin)?

And talking of service 63 why not offer the option of faster 'X' journeies? Two trips out of 6 per hour that already operate might just increase profitability?

The route has changed at the Redcar end but they've always gone under that bridge. Think some at least of the current deckers can get under but they tend to play safe and avoid it. A E400 did a 63 once when Redcar had them.

One of dumbest moves in the transition from United to Arriva was the closure of the depots at Loftus and Whitby; something I feel has happened, cause problems in other parts of the north east. Tees and District held on to Loftus depot and Whitby as, I think, some form of out-station for the vehicles required on services in that area. It worked. Along comes Arriva. Loftus, thus Whitby are on the hit list and all services, vehicles and staff (that wanted to) moved to Dormanstown; staff and drivers remained at Whitby with a compound on the outskirts of the town where the vehicles, essentially a part of the main Dormanstown fleet, stabled. To my knowledge only limited maintenance, cleaning is undertaken there with vehicles working through to the main depot at Dormanstown. Does it work? In Arriva's eyes it must, the cost of the operation will have been slashed at the expense of what was previous; Arriva always work to the tightest of margins at the expense of everything else. Why pay for an expensive depot facility when a piece of land and a shed will suffice and then why worry about the passengers? Which nicely brings me on to breakdowns, especially in the case of the long distance routes that work into the Whitby area, in summer carrying large numbers of passengers, many of them tourists and first time service users? We've read elsewhere about the vehicles used on these and those long delays whilst engineers attend and replacement buses sort. Does it work ? Short answer is no.

(14 Feb 2020, 3:18 pm)Dyllan7817 wrote [ -> ]Is it true that redcar tesma Avenue 4705 is at Belmont

Could be there for a mot doubt they transfer them out of redcar as staff would need training

Who knows what's happening when people just dummies.

(15 Feb 2020, 12:41 pm)Ryland wrote [ -> ]Could be there for a mot doubt they transfer them out of redcar as staff would need training

Or DiagTest, next door?

4516 apparently has gone to Yorkshire Tiger.

(15 Feb 2020, 8:06 pm)S830OFT wrote [ -> ]4516 apparently has gone to Yorkshire Tiger.

Yes it has as it's been seen operating out of Waterloo depot on 262

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What’s happening to the X93 during the summertime this year??

Be the same as last year I expect. The exception to this looking as though services will operate as X93 / X94 working alternate routes in Scarborough, as detailed previously. Other than that Arriva will do nothing to promote, capitalise on the service and it'll be the same fleet operating these unless of course the BTL9's do get transferred away.

Thanks. I don’t know why Go East Yorkshire don’t compete with them on this service out of Scarborough.

(16 Feb 2020, 10:41 pm)micketh wrote [ -> ]Thanks. I don’t know why Go East Yorkshire don’t compete with them on this service out of Scarborough.

Arriva North East: 1499 / NK12 FLL by Lee Calder, on Flickr

Arriva 1499 / NK12 FLL by kieron mathews, on Flickr

Here’s 1499 with a much improved version of the NHS livery on the first photo compared to the previous version on the second photo

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(16 Feb 2020, 11:35 pm)TEN 6083 wrote [ -> ]Arriva North East: 1499 / NK12 FLL by Lee Calder, on Flickr

Arriva 1499 / NK12 FLL by kieron mathews, on Flickr

Here’s 1499 with a much improved version of the NHS livery on the first photo compared to the previous version on the second photo

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That looks infinitely better! The only thing I would say is that the height of the blue is different on the front to the rest!

(16 Feb 2020, 10:41 pm)micketh wrote [ -> ]Thanks. I don’t know why Go East Yorkshire don’t compete with them on this service out of Scarborough.

Transdev would be a better bet than East Yorkshire. Just extend some of the Scarborough runs on their Coastliner services. Not sure it would be possible though with driver hours and the length of the route.

(15 Feb 2020, 10:00 am)Cock Robin wrote [ -> ]The route has changed at the Redcar end but they've always gone under that bridge. Think some at least of the current deckers can get under but they tend to play safe and avoid it. A E400 did a 63 once when Redcar had them.

If a 57 plate E400 (14"6) can get through I'm sure any other decker can get through as the B9s, newer E400s, Gemini 1s & DB300s are 13"11, MMCs are 13"10 & ALX 400s 14"3. Anyway how tall is this bridge.

Talking about other operators taking over, competing on service X93 we aren't taking into account the mileages involved are we? The X93 as operated by Arriva already works the longest mileage on their portfolio and is technically "split" at Guisborough/Whitby to comply with the tachograph regulations. Then just who is going to attend for breakdowns and such like should a Transdev operated vehicle fail. It's a good idea but full of logistical headaches.

The mileage is an issue I agree. It’s just that it must make pots of money during the summer especially... otherwise, let’s be frank on the attitude of Arriva, they wouldn’t bother with it given all the logistical issues it would seem.

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Andreos1

Rob44

cbma06

Andreos1

tvd

scanialover

L469 YVK

Charles41

Storx

L469 YVK

Storx

BusLoverMum

scanialover

Cock Robin

scanialover

Ryland

scanialover

Dan

S830OFT

Stephen James Peter Johns

micketh

scanialover

micketh

scanialover

TEN 6083

streetdeckfan

Storx

GNE6312

scanialover

micketh