North East Buses

(11 Sep 2021, 7:13 pm)Storx wrote [ -> ]I think you misread that. I meant them stopping at a bus station near Pilgrim Street basically around Worswick Street or Stack to serve the city centre then going around it rather than through the centre.

Meant the centre as the following:
Market Street
Blackett Street
Clayton Street
Grainger Street
Newgate Street

There's way too many buses on all of them and it's where the public are rather than down Mosley Street or Percy Street where there's fewer people around so the pollution isn't as harmful.

Apart from Woodhouse (think it's the name) there's no buses anywhere near the centre in Leeds where people are and it's the same in most cities.

I think the point is, as you've said above, people want to be in the places you are suggesting "there's no reason" buses need to go near.  Buses exist to take people where they want/need to be...

(11 Sep 2021, 11:11 am)Storx wrote [ -> ]In fairness, the North East is the poorest region in the North East. Having a tax which mostly affects poor people who can't afford anything more expensive is extremely unfair. It's alright in somewhere like London as it has an expansive public transport whereas up here it's not

Most the highest emissions in Newcastle were in spots where cars can't even drive down anyway or there's very few of them like Percy Street so they're not the cause of the high emissions mostly in Newcastle.

https://www.newcastle.gov.uk/sites/defau...R_2020.pdf - Data here. For example the highest in Newcastle (excluding one on the Coast Road (DT81)) is DT65 which is Blackett Street / Old Eldon Sq and there's only one thing which can be blamed there and it's why they're getting the charge.

I have sympathy for low earners that would be penalised by the AQMA scheme including private cars, but likewise this could penalise public transport users, when fares inevitably go up post-pandemic and we're reminded that it's due to X investment in vehicles, in order to meet the AQMA rules. 

Cars alone aren't the cause of congestion, but they do play a big part in it. Our roads and City Centres just aren't designed for the volumes of traffic they're now taking, and there needs to be a point where you try and flatten the trend.

Your observation about Blackett Street is a good one, and certainly there's been plenty of times I've seen congestion caused by a bus parked up with its back end hanging out, but just because there's very few cars on Percy Street and none at all on Blackett Street, doesn't mean that buses aren't getting stuck in traffic congestion elsewhere, causing them to run late and inevitably start grouping at stops. Of course, overprovision is also a big factor in this and I agree what Andreos1 has said. I'd like to see operators design networks that don't involve *everything* passing through or terminating in the City Centre. Its excessive, unnecessary and quite frankly part of the problem. It's also something that is intended to be tackled by BSIPs, so hopefully an opportunity to sort that out.

Buses and the Metro aren't perfect, there's barriers to people using them and there's a lot more work to do to encourage people to switch. Drivers need to see it as a realistic (and inexpensive) option to park just outside of the City Centre, then complete their journey by bus or Metro. It works well in Durham, because the P&R cost compared to parking makes it a no-brainer. 

Pollution and air quality remains a very real problem that needs tackling, and IMO not one that you can do selectively. Otherwise we end up in a position where we keep shrugging our shoulders and hoping that it'll deal with itself further down the line.

(11 Sep 2021, 10:13 pm)Adrian wrote [ -> ]I have sympathy for low earners that would be penalised by the AQMA scheme including private cars, but likewise this could penalise public transport users, when fares inevitably go up post-pandemic and we're reminded that it's due to X investment in vehicles, in order to meet the AQMA rules. 

Cars alone aren't the cause of congestion, but they do play a big part in it. Our roads and City Centres just aren't designed for the volumes of traffic they're now taking, and there needs to be a point where you try and flatten the trend.

Your observation about Blackett Street is a good one, and certainly there's been plenty of times I've seen congestion caused by a bus parked up with its back end hanging out, but just because there's very few cars on Percy Street and none at all on Blackett Street, doesn't mean that buses aren't getting stuck in traffic congestion elsewhere, causing them to run late and inevitably start grouping at stops. Of course, overprovision is also a big factor in this and I agree what Andreos1 has said. I'd like to see operators design networks that don't involve *everything* passing through or terminating in the City Centre. Its excessive, unnecessary and quite frankly part of the problem. It's also something that is intended to be tackled by BSIPs, so hopefully an opportunity to sort that out.

Buses and the Metro aren't perfect, there's barriers to people using them and there's a lot more work to do to encourage people to switch. Drivers need to see it as a realistic (and inexpensive) option to park just outside of the City Centre, then complete their journey by bus or Metro. It works well in Durham, because the P&R cost compared to parking makes it a no-brainer. 

Pollution and air quality remains a very real problem that needs tackling, and IMO not one that you can do selectively. Otherwise we end up in a position where we keep shrugging our shoulders and hoping that it'll deal with itself further down the line.

You make some good points there in fairness especially about buses grouping together because of traffic elsewhere.

Maybe one idea though could be to introduce an ULEZ though like London which is only inside of the A167(M), the current borders at the top left and then St James Boulevard on the West side. At least then for those who are genuinely poor and it's all they've got, who maybe live in let's say Byker could still get to work somewhere where buses barely serve by allowing them to still use the Tyne and Redheugh Bridges which are arguably strategic routes aswell. Obviously you could go down the Friars Goose Crossing either but that's just fantasy land in the current climate (mind Sunderland managed to build a new bridge so it's not impossible). I do agree about that journeys into the city should be promoted to use other methods though. 

I'd probably then be tempted to go further and extend the LEZ to cover Gosforth High Street, Gateshead Town Centre, The Coast Road, Killingworth Road / Matthew Bank and Low Fell. There's not really any reason why once Newcastle is done why heavy HGV's should be going through there and most other vehicles will already be done anyway unless they plan to not serve Newcastle which is a problem for taxis and work vehicles. Believe all the buses serving them are done already, could be wrong though. (GNE's 69?)

(11 Sep 2021, 11:31 am)Storx wrote [ -> ]Aye your right, the Market Street ones are close second. Mind it would help if we didn't have buses crossing the Tyne Bridge / Redheugh Bridge travelling to a bus stations at the North of the city surprisingly through the centre.

Before 1986 this was not such a problem as the cross Tyne routes didn't, as they terminated at Gateshead Interchange and everyone was forced to use the Metro to get into Newcastle City Centre.

(12 Sep 2021, 8:02 am)IRHardy wrote [ -> ]Before 1986 this was not such a problem as the cross Tyne routes didn't, as they terminated at Gateshead Interchange and everyone was forced to use the Metro to get into Newcastle City Centre.

Correct, if only we still had one local authority covering the entire region, and only the one transport body.

For anyone who hasn’t watched ‘Metro - the way ahead’ it’s really interesting to see how revolutionary Metro was for the area along with all the associated changes to the bus network at the time. Such a shame we lost the regulation and integration we once had.

Buses set to get top priority on three of Newcastle's busiest roads under plan to cut pollution

https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/nor...e=linkCopy&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar

3 major roads set to change for buses

(27 Sep 2021, 9:34 am)Train8261 wrote [ -> ]Buses set to get top priority on three of Newcastle's busiest roads under plan to cut pollution

https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/nor...e=linkCopy&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar

3 major roads set to change for buses

Excellent news, looking forward to seeing the detail.

(27 Sep 2021, 9:34 am)Train8261 wrote [ -> ]Buses set to get top priority on three of Newcastle's busiest roads under plan to cut pollution

https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/nor...e=linkCopy&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar

3 major roads set to change for buses

Way to increase pollution...have a virtually unchanged number of cars queuing in one lane with an empty bus lane.  For the extent to which bus lanes speed up bus journeys, I would be amazed if they tempted more than a handful of people out of their cars.  And to have a meaningful or even break even impact on pollution, surely they would need to tempt out enough people to warrant markedly more buses to run...for which there are neither the vehicles, nor the drivers. So said vehicles would just be fuller and even less appealing. Having buses slightly more quickly still take you to where you dont exactly want to go, at a time that still isn't really that convenient, possibly to then need to change to another bus to complete the journey, isn't going to change behaviour. "Deterring motorists" just deters them to an alternative route, or to an alternative destination if they have a choice.

(27 Sep 2021, 9:33 pm)stagecoachbusdepot wrote [ -> ]Way to increase pollution...have a virtually unchanged number of cars queuing in one lane with an empty bus lane.  For the extent to which bus lanes speed up bus journeys, I would be amazed if they tempted more than a handful of people out of their cars.  And to have a meaningful or even break even impact on pollution, surely they would need to tempt out enough people to warrant markedly more buses to run...for which there are neither the vehicles, nor the drivers.  So said vehicles would just be fuller and even less appealing.  Having buses slightly more quickly still take you to where you dont exactly want to go, at a time that still isn't really that convenient, possibly to then need to change to another bus to complete the journey, isn't going to change behaviour.  "Deterring motorists" just deters them to an alternative route, or to an alternative destination if they have a choice. 

This.

Made similar points in the past. 
Except, more bus lanes and priority measures.
Not buses operating to the places people want to travel to and from.

The majority of bus users living on those three main corridors are riding into the city centre for work or leisure, because it’s cheaper and easier than taking their car into town - or more likely because they don’t owner a car, (Newcastle has a higher percentage of non-car owners than other areas).

You’re never going to persuade all of people shown in the image linked below who are sat in their private metal boxes to switch to public transport. They are contributing to congestion and pollution and delaying public transport further.

https://twitter.com/nelivetraffic/status...75050?s=21

Car is no longer king in cities and it’s about time public transport was prioritised. If you don’t try to improve public transport & make it a more attractive option then you risk losing current patronage, when the aim is to increase it.

(28 Sep 2021, 9:15 am)ne14ne1 wrote [ -> ]The majority of bus users living on those three main corridors are riding into the city centre for work or leisure, because it’s cheaper and easier than taking their car into town - or more likely because they don’t owner a car, (Newcastle has a higher percentage of non-car owners than other areas).

You’re never going to persuade all of people shown in the image linked below who are sat in their private metal boxes to switch to public transport. They are contributing to congestion and pollution and delaying public transport further.

https://twitter.com/nelivetraffic/status...75050?s=21

Car is no longer king in cities and it’s about time public transport was prioritised. If you don’t try to improve public transport & make it a more attractive option then you risk losing current patronage, when the aim is to increase it.

Massive assumption there considering the Coast Road is the main road to head North, South and West from the likes of Byker aswell. How do you know these people aren't travelling to Team Valley, The Airport or elsewhere in the North East.

You can have 1 million buses going to Newcastle every 30 seconds along the Coast Road it's no use when you can't get a bus to Team Valley without a 15 minute walk.

Considering there's a traffic jam over the Tyne Bridge every morning Southbound suggests that the traffic infact isn't going nowhere near Newcastle especially when the traffic is heading towards the Central Motorway and not Haymarket / St Mary's Place where the majority of City Centre traffic would head towards.

There's a perfectly fine Metro system from the majority of areas on the Coast with proper interworking there's no reason why they should be on a bus along the Coast Road in the first place.

(28 Sep 2021, 10:37 am)Storx wrote [ -> ]Massive assumption there considering the Coast Road is the main road to head North, South and West from the likes of Byker aswell. How do you know these people aren't travelling to Team Valley, The Airport or elsewhere in the North East.

You can have 1 million buses going to Newcastle every 30 seconds along the Coast Road it's no use when you can't get a bus to Team Valley without a 15 minute walk.

Considering there's a traffic jam over the Tyne Bridge every morning Southbound suggests that the traffic infact isn't going nowhere near Newcastle especially when the traffic is heading towards the Central Motorway and not Haymarket / St Mary's Place where the majority of City Centre traffic would head towards.

There's a perfectly fine Metro system from the majority of areas on the Coast with proper interworking there's no reason why they should be on a bus along the Coast Road in the first place.

Note I was talking about bus users on those three corridors. I didn’t claim general traffic was all heading to the city centre.

Newcastle City Council is rightly prioritising buses so that bus passengers within the City of Newcastle (& no doubt beyond too) can have a quicker more reliable journey into the city centre where they are either heading to alight or connect to onwards travel.

In the wider region hundreds of millions has been spent in recent years on the Silverlink junction, Testos junction, A1 Team Valley to Metrocentre and now A1 Metrocentre to Great Park and A1 Team Valley to Coal House(?).
I don’t see why spending a little on bus priorities on three key bus commuter corridors within the city isn’t being welcomed, especially here on a bus enthusiast forum.

To say there shouldn’t be bus services on the Coast Rd is rather odd. Communities in Sandyford, North Heaton, High Heaton, Cochrane Park, Station Rd, Battle Hill, Norham Rd, Billy Mill, Preston Village etc aren’t all within walking distance to Metro stations, and therefore need buses along the Coast Rd. The same applies to communities along the West Rd and Great North Rd corridors.

(28 Sep 2021, 12:28 pm)ne14ne1 wrote [ -> ]Note I was talking about bus users on those three corridors. I didn’t claim general traffic was all heading to the city centre.

Newcastle City Council is rightly prioritising buses so that bus passengers within the City of Newcastle (& no doubt beyond too) can have a quicker more reliable journey into the city centre where they are either heading to alight or connect to onwards travel.

In the wider region hundreds of millions has been spent in recent years on the Silverlink junction, Testos junction, A1 Team Valley to Metrocentre and now A1 Metrocentre to Great Park and A1 Team Valley to Coal House(?).
I don’t see why spending a little on bus priorities on three key bus commuter corridors within the city isn’t being welcomed, especially here on a bus enthusiast forum.

To say there shouldn’t be bus services on the Coast Rd is rather odd. Communities in Sandyford, North Heaton, High Heaton, Cochrane Park, Station Rd, Battle Hill, Norham Rd, Billy Mill, Preston Village etc aren’t all within walking distance to Metro stations, and therefore need buses along the Coast Rd. The same applies to communities along the West Rd and Great North Rd corridors.

Those road improvements (which actually delivered improved infrastructure and reduced journey times for all road users) weren't done at the detriment of others.  If the bus priority measures meant an extra lane added which buses could whizz along with those who have to use them, I'd have no issue with it.  The reality though will doubtless be some hairbrained half arsed attempt like the Felling bypass, which turns an already congested pollution hotspot into even more of one.  A key issue is that these the bus priority measures are stated as being done to discourage cars.  It is madness since, as you acknowledge, a proportion of those cars wont be heading to the City Centre so wouldn't switch anyway.  Also makes something of a mockery of the Big Bus Conversation...if they really want to know what would make people get out of the car, maybe they shouldn't assume they already know the answer (I'd wager more will have said convenient links, direct services etc than bus priority measures).

(28 Sep 2021, 12:28 pm)ne14ne1 wrote [ -> ]Note I was talking about bus users on those three corridors. I didn’t claim general traffic was all heading to the city centre.

Newcastle City Council is rightly prioritising buses so that bus passengers within the City of Newcastle (& no doubt beyond too) can have a quicker more reliable journey into the city centre where they are either heading to alight or connect to onwards travel.

In the wider region hundreds of millions has been spent in recent years on the Silverlink junction, Testos junction, A1 Team Valley to Metrocentre and now A1 Metrocentre to Great Park and A1 Team Valley to Coal House(?).
I don’t see why spending a little on bus priorities on three key bus commuter corridors within the city isn’t being welcomed, especially here on a bus enthusiast forum.

To say there shouldn’t be bus services on the Coast Rd is rather odd. Communities in Sandyford, North Heaton, High Heaton, Cochrane Park, Station Rd, Battle Hill, Norham Rd, Billy Mill, Preston Village etc aren’t all within walking distance to Metro stations, and therefore need buses along the Coast Rd. The same applies to communities along the West Rd and Great North Rd corridors.

The thing is though as someone else has said the Coast Road isn't a commuter road into town. Bus priority measures isn't the way to fix the issues.

If you really want to fix the issues then shut the Corner House junction and then shut the Osbourne Avenue junction at the same time. You've pretty much solved the traffic problem for buses. It's not like your creating much of a diversion, Heaton Road users from the South wanting to head East can use Cardington Terrace. Users from Heaton Road to the North can easily use Cragside / Benton Road. Maybe still have a bus gate for Corner House to allow the 38 to still run from Newton Road to the Coast Road West.

For Osbourne Terrace you can easily go around Rosebery Crescent and Churchill Gardens, it's pretty much grade separated anyway.

If you done that with some form of new subway / bridge for pedestrians you've solved the traffic issues and the buses can flow freely but a set of pedestrian lights on very long sequences shouldn't cause too much trouble.

You have to be careful as you think making it quicker for buses is a good idea but cars don't have a set route. So you'll end up is with cars rat running no doubt by Chillingham Road which will end impacting the 62/63 or more cars travelling along Byker Bridge and there's no bus lane Eastbound delaying buses there instead.

(28 Sep 2021, 5:41 pm)stagecoachbusdepot wrote [ -> ]Those road improvements (which actually delivered improved infrastructure and reduced journey times for all road users) weren't done at the detriment of others.  If the bus priority measures meant an extra lane added which buses could whizz along with those who have to use them, I'd have no issue with it.  The reality though will doubtless be some hairbrained half arsed attempt like the Felling bypass, which turns an already congested pollution hotspot into even more of one.  A key issue is that these the bus priority measures are stated as being done to discourage cars.  It is madness since, as you acknowledge, a proportion of those cars wont be heading to the City Centre so wouldn't switch anyway.  Also makes something of a mockery of the Big Bus Conversation... if they really want to know what would make people get out of the car, maybe they shouldn't assume they already know the answer (I'd wager more will have said convenient links, direct services etc than bus priority measures). 

I think this hits the nail on the head. 

Operators seem to think that everyone wants to go to town centres and are happy changing buses along the way. 
I'm pretty sure that isn't the case at all. 

I'm also pretty sure there wouldn't be the need for bus lanes, if buses took people where they needed to be. 
They're in their car for a reason. Except nobody seems to have the nous to find out why that is the case nor find out what they can do to encourage car drivers to make the switch. 

Operators maintaining the status quo, whilst adding a few tables, sockets or wifi and bleating about priority measures or doing their utmost to force car drivers on to buses - isn't going to solve the problem.

I've mentioned it before and I'll mention it again. Team Valley. There's a very poor service down there and operators don't seem willing to do much about it.
Telling punters about alternative weekday peak services is a start. But it seems to be the easy option. Almost a quick fix. Except I don't think it's going to fix anything, cos there will still be queues of cars clogging up Kingsway and there will be the same old delays to the 93/94.

---

(28 Sep 2021, 12:28 pm)ne14ne1 wrote [ -> ]Note I was talking about bus users on those three corridors. I didn’t claim general traffic was all heading to the city centre.

Newcastle City Council is rightly prioritising buses so that bus passengers within the City of Newcastle (& no doubt beyond too) can have a quicker more reliable journey into the city centre where they are either heading to alight or connect to onwards travel.

In the wider region hundreds of millions has been spent in recent years on the Silverlink junction, Testos junction, A1 Team Valley to Metrocentre and now A1 Metrocentre to Great Park and A1 Team Valley to Coal House(?). 
I don’t see why spending a little on bus priorities on three key bus commuter corridors within the city isn’t being welcomed, especially here on a bus enthusiast forum.

To say there shouldn’t be bus services on the Coast Rd is rather odd. Communities in Sandyford, North Heaton, High Heaton, Cochrane Park, Station Rd, Battle Hill, Norham Rd, Billy Mill, Preston Village etc aren’t all within walking distance to Metro stations, and therefore need buses along the Coast Rd. The same applies to communities along the West Rd and Great North Rd corridors.

What are bus services like in those areas?
I think the fact that they're pretty naff will explain why the roads are chocker blocker and why they're having to spend a fortune improving them. 
If services were decent, if there was a North/south connection through Silverlink or Testos and people could use public transport to complete their journeys, maybe the works wouldn't need to have happened.

It's the same elsewhere too.
Millions being spent at Wolviston on the A19 and widening it. Talks of a new Tees crossing. But absolutely nothing about improving connectivity or looking at improving public transport in the area.
Just the same old links and connections, that don't take people to places they need or want to be in an effective or cost effective manner.
We just see a pretty naff railway network and buses that go from town centre to town centre, with a couple of estates served along the way.
Ingleby Barwick - Billingham: car that is direct and benefits from the widened road or 2/3 buses in each direction?

(29 Sep 2021, 3:33 pm)Andreos1 wrote [ -> ]I've mentioned it before and I'll mention it again. Team Valley. There's a very poor service down there and operators don't seem willing to do much about it.
Telling punters about alternative weekday peak services is a start. But it seems to be the easy option. Almost a quick fix. Except I don't think it's going to fix anything, cos there will still be queues of cars clogging up Kingsway and there will be the same old delays to the 93/94.

The thing is, where do you stop on services to Team Valley? When I went to college there about 10 years ago, I was completely fine getting the X34 from the Nook or going to Shields to get the Metro then swapping to the 94 to Kingsway. Do we give people a direct bus from Harton Nook? I had classmates from Burnopfield, Ryton, Whiteleas, Washington, East Herrington, I know a few people who work on the Valley too from random areas of the North East too, none of them had direct buses. Yet when I see the workers services they're only ever carrying half a dozen people so where do you run a service from? I honestly don't know how you would route buses to these places where people work that would actually tempt people who think travelling to Gateshead and changing was too much hassle for them. Most of them seem to travel around most of an area to get enough passengers to justify, and in doing so it turns people away because it's quicker for someone in Sunderland to get the Metro or X24 to Gateshead and switching onto a 94 rather than travelling slowly across most of the Sunderland area on the 939 before heading to the Valley.

I know there's other examples too where I know people locally work such as Quorum, Cobalt or Doxford Park. Apparently there used to be a South Shields GNE depot operated bus that went from Shields around some estates onto the A19 at Lindisfarne Roundabout straight to Doxy, would that type of service be justifiable in the current climate? I don't think so.

I'm hoping this new enhanced bus partnership means services like this could be brought back and maybe entice people out of their cars? I doubt it though, and commercial operators are certainly not going to introduce services like this any time soon. People like my mate who works at the Valley and lives in Harton would rather sit in traffic in his car than go anywhere near a bus. Moving to electric cars at least will reduce localised pollution but congestion is only going to get worse for everyone.

(29 Sep 2021, 4:57 pm)deanmachine wrote [ -> ]The thing is, where do you stop on services to Team Valley? When I went to college there about 10 years ago, I was completely fine getting the X34 from the Nook or going to Shields to get the Metro then swapping to the 94 to Kingsway. Do we give people a direct bus from Harton Nook? I had classmates from Burnopfield, Ryton, Whiteleas, Washington, East Herrington, I know a few people who work on the Valley too from random areas of the North East too, none of them had direct buses. Yet when I see the workers services they're only ever carrying half a dozen people so where do you run a service from? I honestly don't know how you would route buses to these places where people work that would actually tempt people who think travelling to Gateshead and changing was too much hassle for them. Most of them seem to travel around most of an area to get enough passengers to justify, and in doing so it turns people away because it's quicker for someone in Sunderland to get the Metro or X24 to Gateshead and switching onto a 94 rather than travelling slowly across most of the Sunderland area on the 939 before heading to the Valley.

I know there's other examples too where I know people locally work such as Quorum, Cobalt or Doxford Park. Apparently there used to be a South Shields GNE depot operated bus that went from Shields around some estates onto the A19 at Lindisfarne Roundabout straight to Doxy, would that type of service be justifiable in the current climate? I don't think so.

I'm hoping this new enhanced bus partnership means services like this could be brought back and maybe entice people out of their cars? I doubt it though, and commercial operators are certainly not going to introduce services like this any time soon. People like my mate who works at the Valley and lives in Harton would rather sit in traffic in his car than go anywhere near a bus. Moving to electric cars at least will reduce localised pollution but congestion is only going to get worse for everyone.

I'm not sure it's about sending a bus from here there and everywhere. It's about finding a market and giving them something which will be attractive.

As an example, we see operators complain about traffic through Birtley, argue for a bus lane approaching the Angel and have offered peak time diversions to the X21 to avoid the motorway - but have done pretty sweet FA in regards to offering a viable alternative for those many, many drivers or cars not going to Low Fell, Gateshead or Newcastle. 

Yes, there is the option of a 21 or X21 to Low Fell (potentially an 82 from one of the estates in to Birtley prior) and a 93 from there, but is that going to be attractive? Are people really going to make the switch from the warm, comfortable car to a combination of buses which heads in a different direction and then do the same back at the end of their day?

Instead, we continue to see buses stuck at key pinch points, heading nowhere near where the bulk of the traffic is going and we see millions of pounds spent on road widening schemes. 

I want people to make the modal switch. But I genuinely can't see that happening on mass, unless the network adapts and changes, taking its focus away from sending half the fleet in and out of the town with a load of bus lanes being built along the way.

(29 Sep 2021, 4:57 pm)deanmachine wrote [ -> ]The thing is, where do you stop on services to Team Valley? When I went to college there about 10 years ago, I was completely fine getting the X34 from the Nook or going to Shields to get the Metro then swapping to the 94 to Kingsway. Do we give people a direct bus from Harton Nook? I had classmates from Burnopfield, Ryton, Whiteleas, Washington, East Herrington, I know a few people who work on the Valley too from random areas of the North East too, none of them had direct buses. Yet when I see the workers services they're only ever carrying half a dozen people so where do you run a service from? I honestly don't know how you would route buses to these places where people work that would actually tempt people who think travelling to Gateshead and changing was too much hassle for them. Most of them seem to travel around most of an area to get enough passengers to justify, and in doing so it turns people away because it's quicker for someone in Sunderland to get the Metro or X24 to Gateshead and switching onto a 94 rather than travelling slowly across most of the Sunderland area on the 939 before heading to the Valley.

I know there's other examples too where I know people locally work such as Quorum, Cobalt or Doxford Park. Apparently there used to be a South Shields GNE depot operated bus that went from Shields around some estates onto the A19 at Lindisfarne Roundabout straight to Doxy, would that type of service be justifiable in the current climate? I don't think so.

I'm hoping this new enhanced bus partnership means services like this could be brought back and maybe entice people out of their cars? I doubt it though, and commercial operators are certainly not going to introduce services like this any time soon. People like my mate who works at the Valley and lives in Harton would rather sit in traffic in his car than go anywhere near a bus. Moving to electric cars at least will reduce localised pollution but congestion is only going to get worse for everyone.

Agree with all of this and especially the last point.  Congestion is going to be made much worse by reducing car lanes (increasing congestion) to create bus priority measures, without fundamental changes to the way operators work (which is not going to happen when profit is king and providing a public service is secondary).  Martijn has been clear in a recent briefing that the future for buses is on high usage, mass transit - so run from X to Y and if you happen to live in Z or A to W, tough/walk/change potentially multiple times or modes of transport.  Improving journey times might result in marginal gains by tempting more people who live on or close to the X to Y route that is sufficiently profitable for the operator to service, but will do nothing for the majority - those people making the myriad other journeys which will continue to be made in the car, just crammed into one lane instead of two.  The danger is the extent to which this stupid approach of making the bus more attractive relative to the car only really by deliberately worsening car journey times is pushed, risks breaking the entire transport system (so-called public, as well as private).

(29 Sep 2021, 9:57 pm)stagecoachbusdepot wrote [ -> ]Agree with all of this and especially the last point.  Congestion is going to be made much worse by reducing car lanes (increasing congestion) to create bus priority measures, without fundamental changes to the way operators work (which is not going to happen when profit is king and providing a public service is secondary).  Martijn has been clear in a recent briefing that the future for buses is on high usage, mass transit - so run from X to Y and if you happen to live in Z or A to W, tough/walk/change potentially multiple times or modes of transport.  Improving journey times might result in marginal gains by tempting more people who live on or close to the X to Y route that is sufficiently profitable for the operator to service, but will do nothing for the majority - those people making the myriad other journeys which will continue to be made in the car, just crammed into one lane instead of two.  The danger is the extent to which this stupid approach of making the bus more attractive relative to the car only really by deliberately worsening car journey times is pushed, risks breaking the entire transport system (so-called public, as well as private).

Going back to the days of One North East, it was always a massive problem getting any sort of cohesive strategy agreed between Newcastle and Gateshead councils, nothing has changed. The whole area has to be involved in effective route 'cleansing' , it is pointless doing bits and bobs, the cycle network is clear evidence of that. Nobody seems capable of looking at the infrastructure of the region as one, for decades the trend has become set for commuting much longer distances than were the norm say, 60 years ago. Every time a new road was opened it was hailed as a congestion busting enterprise, within a year it was a car park, the western bypass was a prime example. With the regime banging on about carbon zero all councils should be looking at how to tackle the future..

(29 Sep 2021, 9:57 pm)stagecoachbusdepot wrote [ -> ]Agree with all of this and especially the last point.  Congestion is going to be made much worse by reducing car lanes (increasing congestion) to create bus priority measures, without fundamental changes to the way operators work (which is not going to happen when profit is king and providing a public service is secondary).  Martijn has been clear in a recent briefing that the future for buses is on high usage, mass transit - so run from X to Y and if you happen to live in Z or A to W, tough/walk/change potentially multiple times or modes of transport.  Improving journey times might result in marginal gains by tempting more people who live on or close to the X to Y route that is sufficiently profitable for the operator to service, but will do nothing for the majority - those people making the myriad other journeys which will continue to be made in the car, just crammed into one lane instead of two.  The danger is the extent to which this stupid approach of making the bus more attractive relative to the car only really by deliberately worsening car journey times is pushed, risks breaking the entire transport system (so-called public, as well as private).

Would love to see this briefing and see the justification in pushing ahead with this model.

What was that saying about doing the same thing over and over, expecting to get different results?

I remember years ago, I used to play Sim City 2000. Loved that game, but when the cities roads became gridlocked with cars - it became frustrating. I could have done a few different things, but the outcome which worked the best, was improving the public transport network and giving the population an alternative.

The fun police works over at the RVI in Newcastle ( thanks for clapping btw ) With me starting work later in the day I was giving her a lift during covid lockdown when the road were almost deserted. Now we are getting back to normal i drop her off at gateshead metro and she either gets the metro or the bus over to town. She did this before they changed Askew road and closed hill street and says now the buses get her to toon much quicker than they did so there one person who thinks the changes are a good thing. As a car driver you would expect me to disagree but I also don't think its as bad as all the " karens" on FB are making out. when it was busy over the last 2 weekend it would have just been as bad as the olden days as it was the amount of traffic trying to get across the tyne bridge. I was on the bus when the queues were forming and got to toon no bother.

(30 Sep 2021, 10:46 am)Rob44 wrote [ -> ]The fun police works over at the RVI in Newcastle ( thanks for clapping btw )  With me starting work later in the day I was giving her a lift during covid lockdown when the road were almost deserted. Now we are getting back to normal i drop her off at gateshead metro and she either gets the metro or the bus over to town. She did this before they changed Askew road and closed hill street and says now the buses get her to toon much quicker than they did so there one person who thinks the changes are a good thing. As a car driver you would expect me to disagree but I also don't think its as bad as all the " karens" on FB are making out. when it was busy over the last 2 weekend it would have just been as bad as the olden days as it was the amount of traffic trying to get across the tyne bridge. I was on the bus when the queues were forming and got to toon no bother.

I'm in two minds about the new layout, I personally prefer the actual layout, to me it's much more logical than it used to be (although I never really understood the anger at the previous layout either).

We had to go into Newcastle a couple weeks back, and I think it took us about 40 minutes to get along Gateshead Highway to the Tyne Bridge on the upper deck. The main issue seemed to be people coming up the sliproad and forcing their way up, so we were sat like lemons in the left lane whilst the right lane was moving. Once we got past it just flowed like normal.

GNE seem to be well on their way to getting ready for the CAZ.  How are Stagecoach & Arriva doing?

(05 Oct 2021, 8:57 am)ne14ne1 wrote [ -> ]GNE seem to be well on their way to getting ready for the CAZ.  How are Stagecoach & Arriva doing?

It would be interesting to compile a list of services for each of the major operators and their current CAZ compliance status based on intended vehicle allocation.


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Stagecoach are putting ALX300 through MOT's ready for the swap with Stockton E30D.

Can't vouch for Arriva

(05 Oct 2021, 9:01 am)54APhotography wrote [ -> ]Stagecoach are putting ALX300 through MOT's ready for the swap with Stockton E30D.

Can't vouch for Arriva

Why do they need to put ALX300s through MOT? Surely it’d just be a swap of existing fleet, without impacting on MOT requirements?


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(05 Oct 2021, 8:57 am)ne14ne1 wrote [ -> ]GNE seem to be well on their way to getting ready for the CAZ.  How are Stagecoach & Arriva doing?

Apart from a few spares at Jesmond (B7's). Arriva is done already* and has been for awhile fleet wise.

*On paper at least since the Ashington B7's like wandering onto the express work (should be 35) and Blyth's Pulsar's from Redcar for the 1/2 which won't have the mods (might get them) keep ending up on the Blyth expresses.

(05 Oct 2021, 9:41 am)Storx wrote [ -> ]Apart from a few spares at Jesmond (B7's). Arriva is done already* and has been for awhile fleet wise.

*On paper at least since the Ashington B7's like wandering onto the express work (should be 35) and Blyth's Pulsar's from Redcar for the 1/2 which won't have the mods (might get them) keep ending up on the Blyth expresses.

None of Jesmond's Solos are Euro 6 to my knowledge (based on our fleet list, which I appreciate hasn't been updated for over a year!) This means that the 46/46A, 51 and 55 don't yet comply with the Clean Air Zone.

There's also the 685 which, presumably on paper at least, does not yet comply - as the OmniCitys are only Euro 3 (appreciating that they're actually withdrawn and SCRT-fitted Pulsars usually fill the void).

(05 Oct 2021, 9:53 am)Dan wrote [ -> ]None of Jesmond's Solos are Euro 6 to my knowledge (based on our fleet list, which I appreciate hasn't been updated for over a year!) This means that the 46/46A, 51 and 55 don't yet comply with the Clean Air Zone.

There's also the 685 which, presumably on paper at least, does not yet comply - as the OmniCitys are only Euro 3 (appreciating that they're actually withdrawn and SCRT-fitted Pulsars usually fill the void).

Yeah could be true, I just knew Arriva bid for the 51 as part of the North Tyneside green fund so assumed some of them got done as part of it - https://my.northtyneside.gov.uk/sites/de...port_0.pdf

Mind nevermind whether things are Euro 6 at Jesmond it'd be interesting to know what's supposed to be allocated to what as it's a right mess lately; Pulsars on the 55, Streetlites on the 306, Solos and Enviro's on the 52/53/54; Pulsars on the 306 and so on and it's been the same for weeks now.

(05 Oct 2021, 10:04 am)Storx wrote [ -> ]Yeah could be true, I just knew Arriva bid for the 51 as part of the North Tyneside green fund so assumed some of them got done as part of it - https://my.northtyneside.gov.uk/sites/de...port_0.pdf

Mind nevermind whether things are Euro 6 at Jesmond it'd be interesting to know what's supposed to be allocated to what as it's a right mess lately; Pulsars on the 55, Streetlites on the 306, Solos and Enviro's on the 52/53/54; Pulsars on the 306 and so on and it's been the same for weeks now.

I think part of the problem with Arriva's fleet is that they have too many Solo's for their present operation. And so you end up with the situation at Jesmond where there's a mixture of everything on all services because they need to try and allocate the Solo's to the boards with the fewest passengers. We've seen Blyth essentially remove it's mini-bus fleet by nabbing Pulsars which have been made spare elsewhere due to Covid reductions, but the likes of Durham and Newcastle have too many smaller vehicles which are then having to be used on services which need higher capacity.

Hopefully when it gets to the point in a few years time where a vast wave of the fleet is due for replacement, that a smaller amount of minibuses are purchased to fulfil the needs primarily at Darlington and then the odd few services elsewhere (95 at Whitby, 46/51/55/553 at Jesmond, 57/57A at Ashington and 58 at Blyth). And then the rest of the Solo's replaced by larger vehicles so that they don't have to be allocated to frontline services such as the 52/53/54 for example and can be taken out of Durham's fleet allowing the 56/57/57A/58 and 49/49A to be operated with more appropriately sized vehicles.