North East Buses

Saw Solo 2837 NIS on late Friday afternoon sporting the beginnings of a new livery. Under streetlights, it looked a bit like Nexus grey, with no sign of any Quorum logos.. Presumably a work-in-progress.

(08 Nov 2020, 12:01 am)N391OTY wrote [ -> ]Saw Solo 2837 NIS on late Friday afternoon sporting the beginnings of a new livery. Under streetlights, it looked a bit like Nexus grey, with no sign of any Quorum logos.. Presumably a work-in-progress.

Due to be rebranded for Quorum who have rebranded themselves with a new grey & green logo, so the bus is getting done too.

(08 Nov 2020, 1:10 pm)tyresmoke wrote [ -> ]Due to be rebranded for Quorum who have rebranded themselves with a new grey & green logo, so the bus is getting done too.

Ironic that they can get buses repainted for Quorum's re-brand quicker than their own re-brand!

Thats Arriva for ya

Now with vinyls:

Arriva North East Optare Solo YJ08 XBT seen here on the 53 to Cramlington in new Quorum Livery by Micheal Parker, on Flickr

(08 Nov 2020, 1:31 pm)Dan wrote [ -> ]Ironic that they can get buses repainted for Quorum's re-brand quicker than their own re-brand!

Now now Dan, if one of GNE's commercial partners who is subsidising one of their services stumped up and asked for a repaint following a takeover and rebrand you know that bus would be in Saltmeadows quicker than you can say Voltra!

(14 Nov 2020, 3:12 pm)Ambassador wrote [ -> ]Now now Dan, if one of GNE's commercial partners who is subsidising one of their services stumped up and asked for a repaint following a takeover and rebrand you know that bus would be in Saltmeadows quicker than you can say Voltra!

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Well said it will be part of the contact so would have to be repainted at no cost to ARRIVA

(14 Nov 2020, 7:31 pm)CC98507 wrote [ -> ]

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Well said it will be part of the contact so would have to be repainted at no cost to ARRIVA

Quite. I’m sure Dan will acknowledge this once his blinkers are removed.

A very disappointing pot shot though. That Go Ahead corporate kool aid must be lovely

(14 Nov 2020, 10:47 pm)Ambassador wrote [ -> ]Quite. I’m sure Dan will acknowledge this once his blinkers are removed.

A very disappointing pot shot though. That Go Ahead corporate kool aid must be lovely

It was a tongue in cheek remark, obviously, but all jokes aside, nobody can deny that Arriva is taking an exceptionally long time to roll out their new brand (especially compared to Stagecoach, for example, who seemingly manage to repaint 2-3 buses per week).


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Looks quite nice that, simple but does what it needs to. Well apart from it doesn't say where it goes so you wouldn't know what the Shuttle is unless someone tells you.

(15 Nov 2020, 10:19 am)Dan wrote [ -> ]It was a tongue in cheek remark, obviously, but all jokes aside, nobody can deny that Arriva is taking an exceptionally long time to roll out their new brand (especially compared to Stagecoach, for example, who seemingly manage to repaint 2-3 buses per week).

tbf. they need to finish the 2010 rebrand nevermind the even newer one. Far to many buses running in the 1999 livery, some which I doubt have ever been repainted.

(15 Nov 2020, 10:19 am)Dan wrote [ -> ]It was a tongue in cheek remark, obviously, but all jokes aside, nobody can deny that Arriva is taking an exceptionally long time to roll out their new brand (especially compared to Stagecoach, for example, who seemingly manage to repaint 2-3 buses per week).


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Which one are we talking about here?!

(15 Nov 2020, 10:19 am)Dan wrote [ -> ]It was a tongue in cheek remark, obviously, but all jokes aside, nobody can deny that Arriva is taking an exceptionally long time to roll out their new brand (especially compared to Stagecoach, for example, who seemingly manage to repaint 2-3 buses per week).


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Nick Knox definitely didn't seem to care about the state of the operation over the last few years of his reign. Hopefully the new guy pushes it on but I'm not hopeful, get the impression that the mindset in upper management is broken beyond repair at this point.

It's not even just an issue on the surface anymore. We've seen the withdrawal of 7453/4 (12 years old), where if they'd actually been given mechanical attention before they left Ashington for Durham they'd likely have been in far better condition now and wouldn't be getting replaced by 51/02 plate Volvo B7s. The amount of Jesmond buses I saw over the summer either broken down or looking in a horrific state is too many to mention. A lack of investment in new vehicles for a few years is okay as long as you actually maintain and look after what you have, but it seems like depot/regional management have their priorities in all the wrong places. 

You've then got, for example, Ashington running 57-plate and 09-plate deckers on long distance, high speed, express work - they seem to be looked after well enough but they really shouldn't have to rely on those buses to do some of the most demanding work in the region.

All of the Scanias seem just about on their last legs, but there seems to be no plans for a replacement there. There's been no trial of any suitable replacement (i.e a 6 cylinder E200 or a B8RLE), and the 67-plate Streetlites at Darlo are in absolutely no way adequate for what the Scanias are working on currently. You've then got a handful of 2001/2 deckers still in day to day service, with only 7484/8/91 appearing to be reliable enough for it, which will need replacing soon (unless Arriva want 20 years out of them...). Really, all of the B7 deckers are approaching end of life and there's absolutely no sign of what might be coming to replace them. 

Rant over. Apologies for going a little off topic folks.

(15 Nov 2020, 9:22 pm)mb134 wrote [ -> ]Nick Knox definitely didn't seem to care about the state of the operation over the last few years of his reign. Hopefully the new guy pushes it on but I'm not hopeful, get the impression that the mindset in upper management is broken beyond repair at this point.

It's not even just an issue on the surface anymore. We've seen the withdrawal of 7453/4 (12 years old), where if they'd actually been given mechanical attention before they left Ashington for Durham they'd likely have been in far better condition now and wouldn't be getting replaced by 51/02 plate Volvo B7s. The amount of Jesmond buses I saw over the summer either broken down or looking in a horrific state is too many to mention. A lack of investment in new vehicles for a few years is okay as long as you actually maintain and look after what you have, but it seems like depot/regional management have their priorities in all the wrong places. 

You've then got, for example, Ashington running 57-plate and 09-plate deckers on long distance, high speed, express work - they seem to be looked after well enough but they really shouldn't have to rely on those buses to do some of the most demanding work in the region.

All of the Scanias seem just about on their last legs, but there seems to be no plans for a replacement there. There's been no trial of any suitable replacement (i.e a 6 cylinder E200 or a B8RLE), and the 67-plate Streetlites at Darlo are in absolutely no way adequate for what the Scanias are working on currently. You've then got a handful of 2001/2 deckers still in day to day service, with only 7484/8/91 appearing to be reliable enough for it, which will need replacing soon (unless Arriva want 20 years out of them...). Really, all of the B7 deckers are approaching end of life and there's absolutely no sign of what might be coming to replace them. 

Rant over. Apologies for going a little off topic folks.

But how much longer can Arriva continue like this?

They need to be look at GNE's XLines network for an example of how to run interurban express routes.

(15 Nov 2020, 9:53 pm)L469 YVK wrote [ -> ]But how much longer can Arriva continue like this?

They need to be look at GNE's XLines network for an example of how to run interurban express routes.

That isn't really the point I was trying to make. I think MAX as a brand was fine, but now standard spec has caught up to that and honestly I think it's about enough for most people (NSAs, USB charging, WiFI). 

The point I was making is more that they still aren't getting that presentation and maintenance standards matter. It doesn't need to be something similar to GNE, I think Stagecoach and First (generally, there are a few exceptions) have good approaches - to be honest so do Arriva, its just the NE that don't seem to know what a repaint is.

They also need to get out of the mindset that anything can run on any route forever. As an example, they were spoilt somewhat by the M-FTY Olympians on the Alnwick routes, 7374/5 were performing on those until pretty much the end (and even for the last bit they were on the X20/1/2). E400s just aren't going to do that to the same level, though it must be said that Ashington have done well with their lot to keep them going for as long as they have. E400s are solid, and their longevity if looked after has been better than most predicted, but they simply don't have the guts to do 15 years on high mileage express work. Then you have the B7s, again I think they've aged well and have exceeded expectations (they had a hard job replacing the Olympian), but they also aren't really designed for the sort of stuff Arriva are asking for them when they are approaching end of life. Then you look at a 4 cylinder Streetdeck (if they ever went that route) which would be crippled after a few years on express work - we saw what happened to the on paper more robust B5s on the TTX. 

It doesn't need to be drastic wholesale changes, it just needs to be a change of approach. It's simple things: repaints every few years, vehicles moved away from overly demanding work before they start to become problematic, putting customer experience first. I've said before that I think they do some things well, such as high quality refurbs (those 2001/2 B7s still feel fresh inside, which is astounding for near enough 20 years old bearing in mind where they've been used) and service levels on routes where other companies in similar situations may cut frequencies etc. 

I think the most frustrating thing was that in 2014(ish) they were probably the best NE operator in terms of fleet presentation, getting vehicles suitable to the routes (B9s for the X93) and overall approach. It started to slip from about 2016/7 then with the introduction of the new set of liveries it just seemed that management at all levels lost any interest.

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(15 Nov 2020, 9:22 pm) wrote [ -> ]You've then got, for example, Ashington running 57-plate and 09-plate deckers on long distance, high speed, express work 

Tbh, the E400s are solid as mentioned and can easily do high speeds. Also people need to look at the speed limiters on the streetdecks (50mph as most modern wrights I think was mentioned in a GNE thread) whereas Enviros get an easy 60/62. Tbh ADL have always had solid builds but alot of operators have been deterred from using them due to Brian souter (SC CEO) having shares and not wanting to give money to stagecoach (the old GNE MD done this apparently hence the lack of ADL) . Personally I think the ADLs are good where they are with arriva atm and when they do get replaced hopefully they're is more ADLs on the cards.

(15 Nov 2020, 10:22 pm)mb134 wrote [ -> ]That isn't really the point I was trying to make. I think MAX as a brand was fine, but now standard spec has caught up to that and honestly I think it's about enough for most people (NSAs, USB charging, WiFI). 

The point I was making is more that they still aren't getting that presentation and maintenance standards matter. It doesn't need to be something similar to GNE, I think Stagecoach and First (generally, there are a few exceptions) have good approaches - to be honest so do Arriva, its just the NE that don't seem to know what a repaint is.

They also need to get out of the mindset that anything can run on any route forever. As an example, they were spoilt somewhat by the M-FTY Olympians on the Alnwick routes, 7374/5 were performing on those until pretty much the end (and even for the last bit they were on the X20/1/2). E400s just aren't going to do that to the same level, though it must be said that Ashington have done well with their lot to keep them going for as long as they have. E400s are solid, and their longevity if looked after has been better than most predicted, but they simply don't have the guts to do 15 years on high mileage express work. Then you have the B7s, again I think they've aged well and have exceeded expectations (they had a hard job replacing the Olympian), but they also aren't really designed for the sort of stuff Arriva are asking for them when they are approaching end of life. Then you look at a 4 cylinder Streetdeck (if they ever went that route) which would be crippled after a few years on express work - we saw what happened to the on paper more robust B5s on the TTX. 

It doesn't need to be drastic wholesale changes, it just needs to be a change of approach. It's simple things: repaints every few years, vehicles moved away from overly demanding work before they start to become problematic, putting customer experience first. I've said before that I think they do some things well, such as high quality refurbs (those 2001/2 B7s still feel fresh inside, which is astounding for near enough 20 years old bearing in mind where they've been used) and service levels on routes where other companies in similar situations may cut frequencies etc. 

I think the most frustrating thing was that in 2014(ish) they were probably the best NE operator in terms of fleet presentation, getting vehicles suitable to the routes (B9s for the X93) and overall approach. It started to slip from about 2016/7 then with the introduction of the new set of liveries it just seemed that management at all levels lost any interest.

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Jesmond has always been quite poor though even back in 2014 it's always the depot which seems to show the most lack of care especially when it comes to branding.

Tbf thought we've been here all before it's like a never ending cycle with Arriva as it was a very similar picture back in 2008. Europeans doing the X1(X12), the Cityzens at Blyth doing the express work, the Prismas working to Whitby, the Primas on the Express work when they were finished.

That said though I do agree with what you said but I can't see much investment til 2024 personally maybe bar a few buses to top things through next like Operation Overdrive back in 2005 which (if they had sense) should be the 685, X26/27, X66 and the Alnwick expresses other than that I think the DW Geminis in London will be all we'll be getting for awhile they're more than adequate for the 35, Jesmond locals and the Blyth spares etc. Some of their other fleets are in a pretty similar state Merseyside in particular, I know they've done more of the new livery but they have a by far more share of the 1999 livery still around and very aging fleet.

I know you mentioned Stagecoach there but they're not in a much stronger position that Arriva really especially up here. The ALX300's, Darts and they've just cancelled the whole of the next years order so god knows how they're planning to get arid of them and they're worse than the Omnicities at Arriva.

Mind I wouldn't be complimentry about First they're in big trouble, got no money and they've got fleets all over the place which are finished. They're heading one direction and have been for awhile imo how long it takes I'm not sure.

Arriva will be waiting to see how all this covid carry on plays out into next year before they even consider spending a penny on new or upgrading current buses.

Up to now the new depot mooted for 2022 appears to still be on the table, along with the proposed SE Northumberland rail link, both of which will have impacts on future service levels. I predict a reduced service requirement that will see the end of minibus operations. Lets face it, most are already overdue for replacement (Darts) or will be in a few years (Solos). I imagine as usual they will find older stock from down south to replace the B7s.

(18 Nov 2020, 12:10 pm)Driver9*** wrote [ -> ]Arriva will be waiting to see how all this covid carry on plays out into next year before they even consider spending a penny on new or upgrading current buses.

Up to now the new depot mooted for 2022 appears to still be on the table, along with the proposed SE Northumberland rail link, both of which will have impacts on future service levels. I predict a reduced service requirement that will see the end of minibus operations. Lets face it, most are already overdue for replacement (Darts) or will be in a few years (Solos). I imagine as usual they will find older stock from down south to replace the B7s.

Someone else suggested this in another thread. I don't necessarily think the re-opening of the line is guaranteed to have a negative effect on the bus network. 

If you look at all of the railway lines which feed in to and out of Newcastle, there is (or appears to be) a solid, reliable bus network of services which complements the rail network.

Hexham - Newcastle.
Prudhoe - Newcastle. 
Blaydon/Metrocentre - Newcastle. 
Middlesbrough - Newcastle. 
Sunderland - Newcastle. 
Durham - Newcastle.
Chester le Street - Newcastle.
Morpeth/Cramlington - Newcastle.
Plus the metro. 

To an extent, Alnmouth/Alnwick and Berwick to Newcastle.

I don't see why it would be different in SE Northumberland.

(18 Nov 2020, 4:08 pm)Andreos1 wrote [ -> ]Someone else suggested this in another thread. I don't necessarily think the re-opening of the line is guaranteed to have a negative effect on the bus network. 

If you look at all of the railway lines which feed in to and out of Newcastle, there is (or appears to be) a solid, reliable bus network of services which complements the rail network.

Hexham - Newcastle.
Prudhoe - Newcastle. 
Blaydon/Metrocentre - Newcastle. 
Middlesbrough - Newcastle. 
Sunderland - Newcastle. 
Durham - Newcastle.
Chester le Street - Newcastle.
Morpeth/Cramlington - Newcastle.
Plus the metro. 

To an extent, Alnmouth/Alnwick and Berwick to Newcastle.

I don't see why it would be different in SE Northumberland.

It's a very different railway line to most of those to be fair though. It's more comparable to the Metro and the routes it's covering are every 30 minute / 20 minutes at best with nothing really left especially for the 1, 19, X7, X8, X9, X10, X11, X21 which will be hit hard from Blyth / Bedlington Station / Ashington / Seaton Delaval / New Hartley end. You've also got the big problem that they're extremely unreliable at rush fault (for no fault of their own) because of numerous bottlenecks; Sandy Lane, Blyth (Cowpen Road), Laverick Hall, Gosforth High Street, South Gosforth, Blue House Roundabout just to name a few.

People will be more happy to use a train which takes 30 minutes from Ashington to Newcastle rather than a bus that might take 55 minutes but it might take longer. You've also got a good connection at Northumberland Park to connect with the Metro so there's more places to go outside and supposedly the new railway line will be under Nexus fares which will allow easier integration with the Metro pricing plus there's going to be free parking at most the stations so people further afield could use them (288 spaces at Seaton Delaval for example, 500 or so at Ashington etc).

The rest of the services you listed above aren't really the same as it's difficult to connect to the Metro so unless your going to Newcastle Centre they're not the best or they're really unfrequent compared to alternative bus(es).

Apart from the 2, 57, 308 and X22 I can see everything else being hit hard.

Oh and the Durham to Newcastle trains will be more popular than the alternative buses, Sunderland to Newcastle is Metro (rather than train) and I wouldn't be surprised that the trains between Hexham and Newcastle will be more popular (it's more people doing intermediate journeys using buses).

(18 Nov 2020, 7:48 pm)Storx wrote [ -> ]It's a very different railway line to most of those to be fair though. It's more comparable to the Metro and the routes it's covering are every 30 minute / 20 minutes at best with nothing really left especially for the 1, 19, X7, X8, X9, X10, X11, X21 which will be hit hard from Blyth / Bedlington Station / Ashington / Seaton Delaval / New Hartley end. You've also got the big problem that they're extremely unreliable at rush fault (for no fault of their own) because of numerous bottlenecks; Sandy Lane, Blyth (Cowpen Road), Laverick Hall, Gosforth High Street, South Gosforth, Blue House Roundabout just to name a few.

People will be more happy to use a train which takes 30 minutes from Ashington to Newcastle rather than a bus that might take 55 minutes but it might take longer. You've also got a good connection at Northumberland Park to connect with the Metro so there's more places to go outside and supposedly the new railway line will be under Nexus fares which will allow easier integration with the Metro pricing plus there's going to be free parking at most the stations so people further afield could use them (288 spaces at Seaton Delaval for example, 500 or so at Ashington etc).

The rest of the services you listed above aren't really the same as it's difficult to connect to the Metro so unless your going to Newcastle Centre they're not the best or they're really unfrequent compared to alternative bus(es).

Apart from the 2, 57, 308 and X22 I can see everything else being hit hard.

Specifically looking at the Ashington/Bedlington end, I honestly don't see a huge shift away. 

If we go place by place along the X21 route, just to give an example:
Newbiggin - If people are using public transport to Newcastle, I don't see them paying twice.
 
Ashington - X20 is 40ish minutes. The station is bang in the middle of Ashington, majority of housing will be a decent walk/bus trip away - by which point its likely just as quick to get an X21/22 (or X20, particularly if living more towards North Seaton).

Stakeford - Will anyone bus to Bedlington Station to catch a train? Likely not, again bus is probably the way. 

Bedlington Station - To Newcastle, yep train is quicker. But if going up to Bedlington, Cramlington Industrial Estate, Gosforth then the bus is definitely/likely (in the case of Gosforth) the better option. Also if anyone misses a train, the bus stop is literally seconds away and they'll be on the A1 before the next train even rocks up (assuming the train is half hourly). 

Bedlington - Literally do not see the point in anyone going down to Bedlington Station to get on a train that'll take the same amount of time as the bus would have. To be honest the process of going down to get the train will make it far longer than getting on a bus and being in town in 30 minutes.

I really don't see many people using the line that are already bus users, it's really targeting people who drive into Newcastle. I think it'll be busy to start with but the novelty will quickly wear off, and that it was a mistake making it a conventional rail line rather than extending the Metro.

(15 Nov 2020, 10:19 am)Dan wrote [ -> ]It was a tongue in cheek remark, obviously, but all jokes aside, nobody can deny that Arriva is taking an exceptionally long time to roll out their new brand (especially compared to Stagecoach, for example, who seemingly manage to repaint 2-3 buses per week).


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As long as the Arriva management have got there new livery stationary etc... sitting on there desks [emoji38]


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(18 Nov 2020, 8:01 pm)mb134 wrote [ -> ]Specifically looking at the Ashington/Bedlington end, I honestly don't see a huge shift away. 

If we go place by place along the X21 route, just to give an example:
Newbiggin - If people are using public transport to Newcastle, I don't see them paying twice.
 
Ashington - X20 is 40ish minutes. The station is bang in the middle of Ashington, majority of housing will be a decent walk/bus trip away - by which point its likely just as quick to get an X21/22 (or X20, particularly if living more towards North Seaton).

Stakeford - Will anyone bus to Bedlington Station to catch a train? Likely not, again bus is probably the way. 

Bedlington Station - To Newcastle, yep train is quicker. But if going up to Bedlington, Cramlington Industrial Estate, Gosforth then the bus is definitely/likely (in the case of Gosforth) the better option. Also if anyone misses a train, the bus stop is literally seconds away and they'll be on the A1 before the next train even rocks up (assuming the train is half hourly). 

Bedlington - Literally do not see the point in anyone going down to Bedlington Station to get on a train that'll take the same amount of time as the bus would have. To be honest the process of going down to get the train will make it far longer than getting on a bus and being in town in 30 minutes.

I really don't see many people using the line that are already bus users, it's really targeting people who drive into Newcastle. I think it'll be busy to start with but the novelty will quickly wear off, and that it was a mistake making it a conventional rail line rather than extending the Metro.

You not think we might not start and see people driving for a bit then using the train who just don't want to travel all the way into Newcastle for whatever reason, lack of parking etc though. Like Newbiggin if you get the bus it takes 75 minutes at rush hour (at best), could easily drive to Bebside in 10 minutes then a 20 minute train journey with little delays (traffic etc) could be very attractive to some.  

Bedlington though could easily just be served by the X22 though, I do think there is space for one express though on the lines of Newcastle -> Bedlington -> Guide Post -> Stakeford -> Ashington -> Newbiggin which fills the trains gaps.

Hopefully though we see better integration of tickets etc though and routes which suit the railway line rather than having a bus vs train which doesn't really benefit anyone ie you can get a ticket from Newbiggin to Ashington, then use the train after, the same with Stakeford etc and split the fares etc, surely it's better for everyone rather than having half empty trains and half empty buses doing similar routes.

https://haveyoursay.northumberland.gov.u...online.pdf - Plans for those interested btw.

(18 Nov 2020, 8:01 pm)mb134 wrote [ -> ]Specifically looking at the Ashington/Bedlington end, I honestly don't see a huge shift away. 

If we go place by place along the X21 route, just to give an example:
Newbiggin - If people are using public transport to Newcastle, I don't see them paying twice.
 
Ashington - X20 is 40ish minutes. The station is bang in the middle of Ashington, majority of housing will be a decent walk/bus trip away - by which point its likely just as quick to get an X21/22 (or X20, particularly if living more towards North Seaton).

Stakeford - Will anyone bus to Bedlington Station to catch a train? Likely not, again bus is probably the way. 

Bedlington Station - To Newcastle, yep train is quicker. But if going up to Bedlington, Cramlington Industrial Estate, Gosforth then the bus is definitely/likely (in the case of Gosforth) the better option. Also if anyone misses a train, the bus stop is literally seconds away and they'll be on the A1 before the next train even rocks up (assuming the train is half hourly). 

Bedlington - Literally do not see the point in anyone going down to Bedlington Station to get on a train that'll take the same amount of time as the bus would have. To be honest the process of going down to get the train will make it far longer than getting on a bus and being in town in 30 minutes.

I really don't see many people using the line that are already bus users, it's really targeting people who drive into Newcastle. I think it'll be busy to start with but the novelty will quickly wear off, and that it was a mistake making it a conventional rail line rather than extending the Metro.

Those points are relevant I think. 

There will also be the people boarding and travelling between stations, where the train just won't be an option. Just like on the other lines which feed in and out of the town.
For the longer trips, then I can see them taking the train over the bus.

But as you say, someone in Newbiggin could sit on the same bus all the way to the town, rather than get off in Ashington and pay additional costs, hope for a decent connection and then use the train.
Some may, I can't see the majority doing it.