North East Buses

Is there any words on the Max brand being took of the buses as seeing currently the only ones Blyth now have max is the X10/X11 from what I've seen. Is this brand staying or being took off

(23 Feb 2021, 7:56 pm)MichealAaron wrote [ -> ]Is there any words on the Max brand being took of the buses as seeing currently the only ones Blyth now have max is the X10/X11 from what I've seen. Is this brand staying or being took off

In sure the max brand is defunct for quite awhile now, just DB (Arriva ) can’t be bothered to paint buses up to date from years ago.


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Don't give me wrong here but just my opinion. But the brand on the side of the max brand buses X7/X8 makes little to no sense https://flic.kr/p/2kDGtwr. Quick links into Newcastle. Yea the X7/X8 shouldn't be branded max as they are not quick into town. Just my opinion

(23 Feb 2021, 7:56 pm)MichealAaron wrote [ -> ]Is there any words on the Max brand being took of the buses as seeing currently the only ones Blyth now have max is the X10/X11 from what I've seen. Is this brand staying or being took off

The only reason they redone the X7/X8 ones is because they interwork with the X9 now so you'd have X7/X8 on the X9. Not that it makes much difference anyway because Blyth don't do allocations (which doesn't bother me tbh - prefer buses on time).

The only thing the MAX brand does is MAX out the buses til they sound, ride and look like garbage. I don't mind a pulsar, but the difference between one used on local routes and on the X12/X66 is very noticeable, and not in a good way for the MAX brand.

Lets not forget too that Arriva have had a new livery since 2017 and yet most of the buses are still carrying the 2009 livery.

Max is indeed a defunct brand. I think they've been hanging onto the concept of having Max routes since the brand was discontinued in 2017, so have preferred to keep buses in the livery instead of repainting them.

The 308 was marketed as a Max route long after the refurbished B5LHs left.

The B5LH vehicles were given MAX livery before they went to Yorkshire, this one is seen in St Mary’s Place Newcastle on 31-10-2017.

I don't necessarily think the MAX brand was a bad one, but I do think they ran into the opposite problem that GNE had.
While GNE tried to shoehorn a brand onto every route, Arriva tried to shoehorn every route into one of two brands, Sapphire and MAX, both of which suffered as a result.

(25 Feb 2021, 9:52 am)streetdeckfan wrote [ -> ]I don't necessarily think the MAX brand was a bad one, but I do think they ran into the opposite problem that GNE had.
While GNE tried to shoehorn a brand onto every route, Arriva tried to shoehorn every route into one of two brands, Sapphire and MAX, both of which suffered as a result.

Agreed - I think the 306/308 were prime examples. It almost felt like depots would throw their toys out the pram if they didn't get at least one of each brand. 

Realistically, the only MAX routes should have been:
X7/8/9/10/11 at Blyth
X12 at Durham/Stockton
X14/5/8/20 at Ashington
X16 at Jesmond (why this isn't Ashington ran baffles me)
X66/67 at Darlington
X93 at Redcar/Whitby

Sapphire wise, again I don't see why the Jesmond 43/44/45 were converted really. I can't actually remember when the brand went from feeling reasonably premium, with the launch of the 7 and then X21/22, to very diluted as it happened so quickly. 2014-6 Arriva must have found a good deal with a paint supplier.

(25 Feb 2021, 8:32 am)RMF1254 wrote [ -> ]The B5LH vehicles were given MAX livery before they went to Yorkshire, this one is seen in St Mary’s Place Newcastle on 31-10-2017.

Yeah, but the 308 has been marketed as Max long after these left. I'm fairly sure the last printed timetables for the route were Max branded, with just a tiny new Arriva logo.

(25 Feb 2021, 10:21 am)mb134 wrote [ -> ]Agreed - I think the 306/308 were prime examples. It almost felt like depots would throw their toys out the pram if they didn't get at least one of each brand. 

Realistically, the only MAX routes should have been:
X7/8/9/10/11 at Blyth
X12 at Durham/Stockton
X14/5/8/20 at Ashington
X16 at Jesmond (why this isn't Ashington ran baffles me)
X66/67 at Darlington
X93 at Redcar/Whitby

Sapphire wise, again I don't see why the Jesmond 43/44/45 were converted really. I can't actually remember when the brand went from feeling reasonably premium, with the launch of the 7 and then X21/22, to very diluted as it happened so quickly. 2014-6 Arriva must have found a good deal with a paint supplier.

Yeah, Arriva seem to go all in on something... for about 5 minutes. Then they just stop bothering. A prime example being Sapphire.

It goes back to what I was saying in the GNE thread, if you advertise a service as being premium, you'd better make sure the vehicles you allocate have all the features you say are available. I can't remember the last time I was on an Sapphire bus where the sockets or USB ports worked. I can't remember the last time I got a Sapphire bus where the NSA worked, or even the last time I got a Sapphire bus with a friendly driver, even before the pandemic you were lucky if they cracked a smile!

(25 Feb 2021, 10:56 am)omnicity4659 wrote [ -> ]Yeah, but the 308 has been marketed as Max long after these left. I'm fairly sure the last printed timetables for the route were Max branded, with just a tiny new Arriva logo.

Arriva struggle to market some of their services, at Darlington for example the 1/5/5A are pushed as Sapphire due to having the Sapphire Lites branded for said routes but X1 still has MAX marketing as it has 1590-1594 branded for the service yet they interwork with the 1/5/5A so you end up with a mix of Sapphire and MAX spec vehicles across all these services.

the bus ob 43, 44 and 45 were already Max branded when they came to n though. Arriva are hardly going to remove that branding to make all those bues normal

(25 Feb 2021, 11:06 am)Jimmi wrote [ -> ]Arriva struggle to market some of their services, at Darlington for example the 1/5/5A are pushed as Sapphire due to having the Sapphire Lites branded for said routes but X1 still has MAX marketing as it has 1590-1594 branded for the service yet they interwork with the 1/5/5A so you end up with a mix of Sapphire and MAX spec vehicles across all these services.

The X1 is listed under both Sapphire and MAX on Arriva's website.

Is there anything different spec wise between the Sapphire and MAX Streetlites? I haven't used them for a while but I remember them being basically the same

(25 Feb 2021, 11:13 am)streetdeckfan wrote [ -> ]The X1 is listed under both Sapphire and MAX on Arriva's website.

Is there anything different spec wise between the Sapphire and MAX Streetlites? I haven't used them for a while but I remember them being basically the same

Only real difference between 1590-94 & 1602-14 aside from cosmetics and size are the X1 Lites have plugs whilst the Sapphire ones have USBs

Not noticed the X1 marketing online since website revamp as I avoid the use of Arriva's website like the plague when I can with how un-user friendly it is.

The bigger question is what does max stand for. Some of them have "Quick links into Newcastle" I wouldn't class the X7/X8 quick links into Newcastle

Or they could just do what any sensible operator would do, for simplicity have every single vehicle in the fleet painted the same colour with no silly gimmicks or names attached to it. No faffing on having certain buses allocated to certain routes.

(25 Feb 2021, 12:57 pm)Driver9*** wrote [ -> ]Or they could just do what any sensible operator would do, for simplicity have every single vehicle in the fleet painted the same colour with no silly gimmicks or names attached to it. No faffing on having certain buses allocated to certain routes.

If 'any sensible operator' would do it, then why are basically none of the main operators doing it?

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(25 Feb 2021, 1:44 pm)streetdeckfan wrote [ -> ]If 'any sensible operator' would do it, then why are basically none of the main operators doing it?

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You tell me? Does it honestly increase passenger numbers by having buses painted in jazzy colours and given silly brand names? 99.9% of punters are not interested in the slightest I'd imagine as long as it turns up on time and is comfortable to sit in.

(25 Feb 2021, 2:27 pm)Driver9*** wrote [ -> ]You tell me? Does it honestly increase passenger numbers by having buses painted in jazzy colours and given silly brand names? 99.9% of punters are not interested in the slightest I'd imagine as long as it turns up on time and is comfortable to sit in.

Yes, when done properly, it does. Arriva recorded growth on their Northumbria Sapphire and Max services after every upgrade.

Branding raises awareness to the route existing, a physical object driving past someone is one of the best forms of advertising, ultimately keeping you in a job.

(25 Feb 2021, 4:46 pm)omnicity4659 wrote [ -> ]Yes, when done properly, it does. Arriva recorded growth on their Northumbria Sapphire and Max services after every upgrade.

Branding raises awareness to the route existing, a physical object driving past someone is one of the best forms of advertising, ultimately keeping you in a job.

If Arriva were willing to put the time & money in, the MAX brand could be as good as GoNE's X-Lines.

(25 Feb 2021, 6:20 pm)L469 YVK wrote [ -> ]If Arriva were willing to put the time & money in, the MAX brand could be as good as GoNE's X-Lines.

Same with Sapphire, but Arriva will be Arriva.
They invest all that money in refurbishing vehicles to a very good spec, and then do absolutely nothing with them.

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(25 Feb 2021, 10:21 am)mb134 wrote [ -> ]Sapphire wise, again I don't see why the Jesmond 43/44/45 were converted really. I can't actually remember when the brand went from feeling reasonably premium, with the launch of the 7 and then X21/22, to very diluted as it happened so quickly. 2014-6 Arriva must have found a good deal with a paint supplier.

The only reason that Jesmond's 43/44/45 were converted to become Sapphire routes was that Arriva needed to put the Sapphire ex X21 & X22 E400s (that had been replaced by the new E400MMCs) somewhere.

By making the 43/44/45 Sapphire routes all Arriva needed to do was peel off the X21 & X22 branding and the buses would be ready for use, if the buses needed to de-Sapphiring, that would have taken time and cost money, which Arriva did not think was worth doing.

(25 Feb 2021, 10:21 am)mb134 wrote [ -> ]Sapphire wise, again I don't see why the Jesmond 43/44/45 were converted really. I can't actually remember when the brand went from feeling reasonably premium, with the launch of the 7 and then X21/22, to very diluted as it happened so quickly. 2014-6 Arriva must have found a good deal with a paint supplier.

(25 Feb 2021, 9:10 pm)IRHardy wrote [ -> ]The only reason that Jesmond's 43/44/45 were converted to become Sapphire routes was that Arriva needed to put the Sapphire ex X21 & X22 E400s (that had been replaced by the new E400MMCs) somewhere.

By making the 43/44/45 Sapphire routes all Arriva needed to do was peel off the X21 & X22 branding and the buses would be ready for use, if the buses needed to de-Sapphiring, that would have taken time and cost money, which Arriva did not think was worth doing.

The 43/44/45 upgrade also coincided with complaints from the residents of Gosforth about the poor environmental standard of the Great North Road ALX400's which previously operated on those routes. The arrival of the MMCs and the displacement of the older X21/22 E400's (some of which were a bit worse for wear after use on the X93 in the past) aligned perfectly with the requested removal of those elderly ex-london ALX400's and sticking them on a double-deck route that wouldn't be too taxing, rather than it being a genuine desire to upgrade them to 'Sapphire.' If they hadn't been Sapphire already, I doubt they would have been upgraded for those routes specifically, but the fact that they were would have been a bonus for passengers and possibly helped to improve patronage/public perception considering the previous option were W/X/Y-reg standard spec vehicles.

(25 Feb 2021, 4:46 pm)omnicity4659 wrote [ -> ]Yes, when done properly, it does. Arriva recorded growth on their Northumbria Sapphire and Max services after every upgrade.

Branding raises awareness to the route existing, a physical object driving past someone is one of the best forms of advertising, ultimately keeping you in a job.

I keep myself in a job by turning up to work every day, not because the bus is painted a certain colour.

(26 Feb 2021, 7:36 pm)Driver9*** wrote [ -> ]I keep myself in a job by turning up to work every day, not because the bus is painted a certain colour.

That's part of it. But the experience onboard is also another part of the equation.

A bus running late every morning when it hasn't even hit the A19 & A1 (timetable issue, not driver related) combined with a VDL DB300 Gemini in limp mode or a B7TL that's seen better days isn't going to keep customers using buses. 

To give Arriva credit on timetabling, the 308 was improved with an increased PVR & more running time. But that won't be sustained if Arriva fail to invest.

(26 Feb 2021, 7:36 pm)Driver9*** wrote [ -> ]I keep myself in a job by turning up to work every day, not because the bus is painted a certain colour.

The drivers of the thousands of duties, buses and services that have been permanently withdrawn all turned up for work every day until they were out of a job. Commercial efforts to boost passenger new numbers could save jobs.

(26 Feb 2021, 9:50 pm)James101 wrote [ -> ]The drivers of the thousands of duties, buses and services that have been permanently withdrawn all turned up for work every day until they were out of a job. Commercial efforts to boost passenger new numbers could save jobs.

I've worked for Arriva a long long time and in that time not one driver has ever been made redundant. But if they did offer it because of covid I'd be at the front of the queue to volunteer for it.

(26 Feb 2021, 7:36 pm)Driver9*** wrote [ -> ]I keep myself in a job by turning up to work every day, not because the bus is painted a certain colour.

The drivers of the thousands of duties, buses and services that have been permanently withdrawn all turned up for work every day until they were out of a job. Commercial efforts to boost passenger new numbers could save jobs.

(26 Feb 2021, 10:01 pm)Driver9*** wrote [ -> ]I've worked for Arriva a long long time and in that time not one driver has ever been made redundant. But if they did offer it because of covid I'd be at the front of the queue to volunteer for it.

That may be so, but may be no consolation to drivers whose depots have been closed and their job moved to a location unworkable for their circumstances so they’ve been pushed out. Arriva have closed Bishop, Peterlee, Richmond & Loftus in living memory and in other Op-Cos, say Midlands, Stafford closed a couple of years ago and the remaining operation in Cannock (a former HQ no less) has only just been taken over by D&G who are thinning out services and driver duties permanently at a pace. I hope all bus industry workers enjoy job security but the reality is it’s a diminishing industry. The beacon of hope for hospitality after the pandemic is that it’s clear people are generally gasping to get back out into pubs & restaurants. Recovery for bus travel, now that customers have had a year of getting used to travelling, working and shopping in a different way, is less clear.