(09 Oct 2022, 9:34 am)Unber43 wrote [ -> ]Where are Stagecoach going to take their services when Blacklett Street shuts, because its only going to add to Congestion are they going to end up Granger Street, market Street then New Bridge Street and stopping in between as that is just going to add to Congestion and the queues which are already long enough.
Newcastle City Council don't seem to care. Newgate Street, Grainger Street and the narrowed Pilgrim Street will be a farce
All this was said when the made northumbria.berland street pedestrian and thatbworkednout fine. Buses will find a way!!!!!
The council are being very disingenuous in calling this a bus loop. A true bus loop has the benefits that someone above mentioned - it matters not how far it is to walk across the loop to change from one service to another, since, if it is really necessary, passengers with luggage or children or mobility issues can just stay on the bus a little longer, until the bus has arrived at the stop or street where their connecting service also calls at, as it makes its own way around the loop.
Stagecoach are rightly upset because it surely has to already be the case that of all the major cities with supposedly well served and efficient bus networks, expecting people with luggage or kids or mobility issues to walk from Blackett Street to Haymarket is already quite ridiculous, especially for people who perhaps already do have alternative means of travel, means that are far less environmentally and socially responsible than a good old bus. Adding a few hundred yards to that journey, and envisioning it to be through crowds apparently, all in the name of progress, surely takes the biscuit.
It wouldn't be so bad if the council had a solid track record of creating and managing pedestrianised areas in the city centre that are clean, safe and actually pleasant to walk through or even linger, but, well, they don't, do they?
I'm not entirely au fait with Newcastle council's policies and priorities but it does make me wonder when they're talking about covering some areas with fake grass but then want to dig up the real grass in a green area that is immensely popular and replace it with more concrete. It's just bonkers.
(10 Oct 2022, 12:21 am)Starscream wrote [ -> ]The council are being very disingenuous in calling this a bus loop. A true bus loop has the benefits that someone above mentioned - it matters not how far it is to walk across the loop to change from one service to another, since, if it is really necessary, passengers with luggage or children or mobility issues can just stay on the bus a little longer, until the bus has arrived at the stop or street where their connecting service also calls at, as it makes its own way around the loop.
Stagecoach are rightly upset because it surely has to already be the case that of all the major cities with supposedly well served and efficient bus networks, expecting people with luggage or kids or mobility issues to walk from Blackett Street to Haymarket is already quite ridiculous, especially for people who perhaps already do have alternative means of travel, means that are far less environmentally and socially responsible than a good old bus. Adding a few hundred yards to that journey, and envisioning it to be through crowds apparently, all in the name of progress, surely takes the biscuit.
It wouldn't be so bad if the council had a solid track record of creating and managing pedestrianised areas in the city centre that are clean, safe and actually pleasant to walk through or even linger, but, well, they don't, do they?
Its not really a loop for GNE services anyway as all of them except the Q3 terminate in Newcastle, and some interwork with other service e.g X45/30/31 really it would be great if you could get on from John Dobson Street instead of walking all the way to Eldon Square.
I know passengers when the 50/26 interworked at Sheilds a few of them stayed on the 26 as it turned into the 50.
(10 Oct 2022, 4:52 pm)Unber43 wrote [ -> ] Its not really a loop for GNE services anyway as all of them except the Q3 terminate in Newcastle, and some interwork with other service e.g X45/30/31 really it would be great if you could get on from John Dobson Street instead of walking all the way to Eldon Square.
I know passengers when the 50/26 interworked at Sheilds a few of them stayed on the 26 as it turned into the 50.
But surely that's up to them to manage appropriately and make it more attractive?
When getting to somewhere such as Central Station via the metro from Gateshead is easier and more convenient (for a vast proportion of the population that side of the river) than using a combination of buses and seeing that very little is being done about filling those gaps, then there's serious questions need asking.
(10 Oct 2022, 6:31 pm)Andreos1 wrote [ -> ]But surely that's up to them to manage appropriately and make it more attractive?
When getting to somewhere such as Central Station via the metro from Gateshead is easier and more convenient (for a vast proportion of the population that side of the river) than using a combination of buses and seeing that very little is being done about filling those gaps, then there's serious questions need asking.
What gaps? Gateshead and Heworth Interchanges were built exactly for this sort of trip.
(10 Oct 2022, 7:10 pm)DeltaMan wrote [ -> ]What gaps? Gateshead and Heworth Interchanges were built exactly for this sort of trip.
Aye, but then 1986 happened and then a few years later, the High Level Bridge ended up being one-way...
Hence those gaps. That need exploiting or filling.
(10 Oct 2022, 8:08 pm)Andreos1 wrote [ -> ]Aye, but then 1986 happened and then a few years later, the High Level Bridge ended up being one-way...
Hence those gaps. That need exploiting or filling.
1986 is totally irrelevant (see attached for example of a commercial operator exploiting the infrastructure avaliable)
The High Level Bridge and Neville Street/Bewick Street remodelling are highly relevant though.[
attachment=10253]
(10 Oct 2022, 8:21 pm)DeltaMan wrote [ -> ]1986 is totally irrelevant (see attached for example of a commercial operator exploiting the infrastructure avaliable)
The High Level Bridge and Neville Street/Bewick Street remodelling are highly relevant though.
If course 1986 is relevant.
It's why those metro stations you mention above stopped working as effectively and ultimately why we see a conga of multi-coloured vehicles following each other in to and ont of the town.
(10 Oct 2022, 8:29 pm)Andreos1 wrote [ -> ]If course 1986 is relevant.
It's why those metro stations you mention above stopped working as effectively and ultimately why we see a conga of multi-coloured vehicles following each other in to and ont of the town.
If they've stopped "working". Why are people using them every day to travel to Central Station?
I was one of them for 10 years and can I tell you exactly why it works!
(10 Oct 2022, 8:40 pm)DeltaMan wrote [ -> ]If they've stopped "working". Why are people using them every day to travel to Central Station?
I was one of them for 10 years and can I tell you exactly why it works!
Working or working as effectively?
If it's an integrated travel system, with co-ordinated fares and timetables or the exact opposite, then it's not working as effectively is it?
(10 Oct 2022, 8:47 pm)Andreos1 wrote [ -> ]Working or working as effectively?
If it's an integrated travel system, with co-ordinated fares and timetables or the exact opposite, then it's not working as effectively is it?
No system is perfect. This isn't the Truman Show or Transport Tycoon where everything works to the second.
Indeed, my very worst experience of "integration" have actually been in London where evening services outside zone 1 and 2 (the part the politicians don't or won't see) are hopelessly uncoordinated.
I am not sure what this has to do with Blackett Street other than my original point demonstrating what NCC did at Neville Street and Bewick Street can lead unforeseen outcomes
tbh if they spent some time actually changing some priorities in Newcastle they could change it so every route would serve the Central Station heading South and also North / East instead of stopping miles away outside the Mile Castle but it would involve changing:
- Changing Neville Street so there's an extra lane heading East by using the space currently loading bays and bus stops (there won't be any West buses anymore)
- Reverse The Bigg Market so heads South to North
- Reverse Clayton Street so it heads North to South
- Reverse Newgate Street so it heads East to West.
Once you've made those changes you could route the buses so they do the following routes, the blue services being the Market Street / Tyne Bridge loop services and the red route being the Scotswood Road, West End and Redheugh Bridge routes.
Below are quick diagrams of it.
North / East
![[Image: north-east.png]](https://i.ibb.co/zVKR9W7/north-east.png)
South / West
![[Image: south-west.png]](https://i.ibb.co/fY35cVh/south-west.png)
It would help in the Newgate Street / Market Street area aswell with less conflicting flows which should help the buses flow a bit better. Neville Street / Berwick Street would be a gyrotory hence the looping up for the North services.
I can give you an example of the 29 i was on saturday heading to match
Near enough on time. Outside lane of Tyne bridge till after swan house roundabout. moved to insoide lane and up the slip road. Turned left into waiting traffic at the light. Several cars waiting to emerge from where old OXFORD nightclub was and where the travelodge premier inn is?
Lights changed. First two cars had egded out of junction. Let in by 29 driver. £ car tried his luck and nearly hit by 29. Lights change before 29 could turn right towards cetral library.
29 turned right though lights then stopped at central library. 3 cars that got out in front of him at junction still in front.
Maga bus back end sticking out at bus stop. had to wait for no oncoming traffic to get around it. Stopped and let off passangers.
Stuck behind (THE SAME )3 cars wanting to turn right off john dobson street toward central motorway. when right filter when on theere was a queue of traffice so only one of the 3 cars managed to turn right. REPEAT 2 more times and 29 continues. Stopped at ped x-ing. Stopped at lights at 5 swans.
Got off at st marsy place. Took 20 minutes from leaving central motorway to aloighting.
Sorry this was so long winded but if those 3 cars could have turned left out of the juntion at the OXFORD they would have been straight on the motorway. Insted they stop mine, and all those behind from geting to eldon square on time. Remove that bus only lane and i reckon that will help the congestion alot!
(10 Oct 2022, 9:08 pm)DeltaMan wrote [ -> ]No system is perfect. This isn't the Truman Show or Transport Tycoon where everything works to the second.
Indeed, my very worst experience of "integration" have actually been in London where evening services outside zone 1 and 2 (the part the politicians don't or won't see) are hopelessly uncoordinated.
I am not sure what this has to do with Blackett Street other than my original point demonstrating what NCC did at Neville Street and Bewick Street can lead unforeseen outcomes
I'm not sure anyone ever said it was The Truman Show or Transport Tycoon
However, when an integrated system works better than an un-integrated system and passengers are still forced to use the model that proceeded 1986 because of a total lack of an alternative - then something is seriously wrong.
(11 Oct 2022, 11:24 am)Andreos1 wrote [ -> ]I'm not sure anyone ever said it was The Truman Show or Transport Tycoon
However, when an integrated system works better than an un-integrated system and passengers are still forced to use the model that proceeded 1986 because of a total lack of an alternative - then something is seriously wrong.
So you'd quite merrily chuck up to 500k per SERVICE in order to put extra resource in order for services crossing the Tyne to also serve the Rail Station? I'd love to see the expected ROI of that... Or what would you cut to in order to avoid a "conga line" of even more buses crossing the river? I'd like to know, as those are the things that would dictate such as request.
Or maybe, Gateshead and Heworth Interchange works.....
(11 Oct 2022, 2:45 pm)DeltaMan wrote [ -> ]So you'd quite merrily chuck up to 500k per SERVICE in order to put extra resource in order for services crossing the Tyne to also serve the Rail Station? I'd love to see the expected ROI of that... Or what would you cut to in order to avoid a "conga line" of even more buses crossing the river? I'd like to know, as those are the things that would dictate such as request.
Or maybe, Gateshead and Heworth Interchange works.....
Who has mentioned anything about cutting or spending additional resource?
Youre making lots of assumptions here mind.
It's not about that and never has been about that.
It is about a network of services that haven't filled a gap. A gap created by de-reg, but one that is still filled by the system set up prior to de-reg.
Let's make the network better. Let's improve what we've got, rather than stagnate and put up with the same old.
(11 Oct 2022, 8:02 pm)Andreos1 wrote [ -> ]Who has mentioned anything about cutting or spending additional resource?
Youre making lots of assumptions here mind.
It's not about that and never has been about that.
It is about a network of services that haven't filled a gap. A gap created by de-reg, but one that is still filled by the system set up prior to de-reg.
Let's make the network better. Let's improve what we've got, rather than stagnate and put up with the same old.
They aren't assumptions, they are facts.
If I'm Bobs Buses and run a route making 100k profit a year between Wideopen and Haymarket, why should I spend an extra 500k on extra buses and drivers to extend it to the Central Station? Despite my route being intergrated with the Metro at Regent Centre and Haymarket?
I know exactly would happen. My reliability would go down the toilet for most of my customers due to the mess NCC are making of the roads and I'd lose a load of money to boot as i'd run virtually empty beyond Haymarket as there is no way you would generate extra customers to cover the shortfall..
These are the same issues Stagecoach will face when it comes to Blackett Street and Go Ahead faced when the HLB closed/NCC made a horlicks of Neville Street. You can't just poo poo these important issues just to get a soundbite about de-regulation or gaps that may cost a fortune to fill.
(12 Oct 2022, 12:06 pm)DeltaMan wrote [ -> ]They aren't assumptions, they are facts.
If I'm Bobs Buses and run a route making 100k profit a year between Wideopen and Haymarket, why should I spend an extra 500k on extra buses and drivers to extend it to the Central Station? Despite my route being intergrated with the Metro at Regent Centre and Haymarket?
I know exactly would happen. My reliability would go down the toilet for most of my customers due to the mess NCC are making of the roads and I'd lose a load of money to boot as i'd run virtually empty beyond Haymarket as there is no way you would generate extra customers to cover the shortfall..
These are the same issues Stagecoach will face when it comes to Blackett Street and Go Ahead faced when the HLB closed/NCC made a horlicks of Neville Street. You can't just poo poo these important issues just to get a soundbite about de-regulation or gaps that may cost a fortune to fill.
It's not about a soundbite at all.
It's not about poo-pooing any issues - particularly as the issues we've got, need resolving.
It's about utilising resource to fill a gap that has existed for bus passengers for years and hasn't been filled in a cost effective manner since.
Yes, the metro can work for some. For others, it doesn't.
So how can we go about improving the situation? How can public transport operators make it more attractive? What can be done to ensure that people aren't inconvienced and are encouraged to make that modal switch?
Or as I mentioned previously, a case of sticking with the same old?
Covid was a missed opportunity to re-jig and re-think routes and the associated infrastructure.
Putting right the wrongs and adapting to changing passenger habits.
At what point do we sit down and acknowledge that the network we see, doesn't work for everyone and the constant fire-fighting needs to stop?
They've got no money, NE1 were kicking up a fuss, they'd likely have lost the legal challenge and the new leader is generally reversing most of Forbes policies anway
The cabinet report admits that the change in plans means some funding already secured by the council for the Blackett Street, including from the Levelling Up Fund, will be “placed at risk” of being clawed back and will now have to be redirected to other projects.
A good example of how the public sector works. Rather than letting this large chunk of money that now won't be used here going to a similar large infrastructure project in another northern city, it will now be rapidly allocated to a flurry of lampost painting and playground resurfacing.