I live in East Cleveland. This service has been promised for ages. The idea was to link up the villages with Brotton hospital, Saltburn station and Skelton retail park. It is doing that but it missed out most of the larger villages. Brotton hospital yes but using the bypass instead of the high street. No service to Easington and most of Loftus. No service to Boosbeck , Skelton Green and Skelton high street. A local councilor is suggesting a 'contractual obligation between Arriva and Stagecoach'. Is this possible?
It should go to middlesbrough
It's designed to cater for links that are not provided by the current commercial network - but also designed not to abstract where possible.
Tendering a service to compete with the commercial network is not good use of public money.
Unfortunately though, i cannot see it working commercially and it will be either this or Flex, not both.
(24 Mar 2023, 5:12 pm)RobinHood wrote [ -> ]It's designed to cater for links that are not provided by the current commercial network - but also designed not to abstract where possible.
Tendering a service to compete with the commercial network is not good use of public money.
Unfortunately though, i cannot see it working commercially and it will be either this or Flex, not both.
There's the X3, X4 and 5 that will be shadowed/followed or in front of this 1 and 2 though.
(I didn't count the X93 for the sake of a couple of stops).
It goes without saying that Teesflex can and does duplicate part of the Arriva network and most certainly abstracts from it.
However I agree with your last point.
It ain't big enough for Arriva, Teesflex and the 1/2.
Just a quick point that it was local councillors who campaigned for this but it has been tendered by Tees Valley CA, not Redcar Council.
It will be interesting to see how Stockton depot cope next week with this requiring even more drivers on top of what they are short now…
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From Cllr Cliff Foggo's Facebook:
Bus Service 1 & 2 for East Cleveland.
Due to problems with the registration of the service with the Traffic Commissioners the service cannot start on Monday 27 March as planned.
As soon as we have a definite start date we will announce it.
(22 Mar 2023, 9:27 pm)toward6931 wrote [ -> ]im not suggesting move all the E200s from walkergate, if im right in thinking they have 11 (happy to be corrected if im wrong), the 317 has a PVR of 5 so assuming like you have suggested the total of 7 to include 2 spares, that leaves the 4 ive suggested to cascade, unless ive missed a route at walkergate that also uses E200s.
as for slatyford aswell im not suggesting removing vehicles from dedicated PVRs or that routes spares, but merely excess spares that end up getting used on other routes, ive seen E200s on a whole assortment of random routes the past year that they were totally unsuited to, i was merely suggesting maybe these excess ones get swapped for a bigger vehicle
Walkergate have eight E200s, half of which are now ex Shields E20D.
Slatyford too have eight, all of which need exchanging for Euro 6 vehicles, however that would leave Shields with only five. The 10/11 requires six, although 36961/3 have worked this weeks suggesting perhaps the 10/11 isn't Euro 6 critical now? The 516 certainly has seen more Euro 5 than 6 of late.
(25 Mar 2023, 8:00 pm)Jimmi wrote [ -> ]From Cllr Cliff Foggo's Facebook:
Bus Service 1 & 2 for East Cleveland.
Due to problems with the registration of the service with the Traffic Commissioners the service cannot start on Monday 27 March as planned.
As soon as we have a definite start date we will announce it.
I'm told Arriva have queried with the Traffic Commissioner over the rationale of the short notice of the service and the Traffic Commissioner haven't granted it.
(22 Mar 2023, 10:03 pm)Lollist wrote [ -> ]I dont get why they dont make it go from Stockton to East Cleveland Vilages through Thornaby and nunthorpe and great ayton and all them surely the people would use it?
Because it’s a contract service for Redcar and East Cleveland though the combined authority, Stagecoach just happened to win the contract and since Stockton is the Nearest depot it’s Stockton that will run the service so even if they wanted to which I doubt they couldn’t start it at Stockton because it’s not part of the route the combined authority want.
Something is going to need doing with the majority of the Manviro 200 withdrawn and it thought at least two more due to be withdrawn soon alongside dart 34611 currently seeming to be out of service the last thing Hartlepool will is losing more buses. I not sure why apparently they can’t cope with full size when they managed perfectly between 1996 - 2010 with full size buses but something needs to be done at Hartlepool and soon so hopefully the delay to this new Saltburn service can be enough time to sort something out.
I understand these are tenders but just been looking at the route, I really don't understand why they didn't work with Arriva and extend the X3A and X3 or 28 through instead.
It would literally offer the same routes without duplication and offer more ie links through to Middlesborough and Redcar or Guisborough depending which one they extended through and potentially be hourly
I also don't understand the numbering aswell as it's two different bus routes unless you like sitting around for 20 minutes at Loftus. The Southern 1/2 is a complete waste of time imo and duplicates the X3 for the bigger places. The Northern one duplicates the 5/X3A and offers nothing new. Damn right bizarre.
(25 Mar 2023, 8:19 pm)54APhotography wrote [ -> ]Walkergate have eight E200s, half of which are now ex Shields E20D.
Slatyford too have eight, all of which need exchanging for Euro 6 vehicles, however that would leave Shields with only five. The 10/11 requires six, although 36961/3 have worked this weeks suggesting perhaps the 10/11 isn't Euro 6 critical now? The 516 certainly has seen more Euro 5 than 6 of late.
I was under the impression that 36468-77 had received modifications a couple of years ago to make them Euro 6. They all say 'No Charge' when using the online checker.
(26 Mar 2023, 11:31 am)Storx wrote [ -> ]I understand these are tenders but just been looking at the route, I really don't understand why they didn't work with Arriva and extend the X3A and X3 or 28 through instead.
It would literally offer the same routes without duplication and offer more ie links through to Middlesborough and Redcar or Guisborough depending which one they extended through and potentially be hourly
I also don't understand the numbering aswell as it's two different bus routes unless you like sitting around for 20 minutes at Loftus. The Southern 1/2 is a complete waste of time imo and duplicates the X3 for the bigger places. The Northern one duplicates the 5/X3A and offers nothing new. Damn right bizarre.
The idea is that it serves the estates in Loftus & gives them a link to Brotton Hospital & Skelton Asda, neither of which are served by the 5 or X4. Liverton Village, Moorsholm & Stanghow are currently unserved (if we disregard Flex…), Lingdale gains a link to Asda which the X3 doesn’t offer. The other side gives a link from Skinningrove & Carlin How to the hospital & Asda which again the 5/X4 don’t do.
Yes there is a small bit of overlap in Loftus & Carlin How to Saltburn (X4) or Lingdale to Saltburn (X3) but other than that it’s about opening up new links.
Just not sure I get the idea of paying for this while also paying to duplicate the Flex buses you’re already paying for…!
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(26 Mar 2023, 7:53 pm)tyresmoke wrote [ -> ]The idea is that it serves the estates in Loftus & gives them a link to Brotton Hospital & Skelton Asda, neither of which are served by the 5 or X4. Liverton Village, Moorsholm & Stanghow are currently unserved (if we disregard Flex…), Lingdale gains a link to Asda which the X3 doesn’t offer. The other side gives a link from Skinningrove & Carlin How to the hospital & Asda which again the 5/X4 don’t do.
Yes there is a small bit of overlap in Loftus & Carlin How to Saltburn (X4) or Lingdale to Saltburn (X3) but other than that it’s about opening up new links.
Just not sure I get the idea of paying for this while also paying to duplicate the Flex buses you’re already paying for…!
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I'm not sure that's really the case though. How many buses are needed between Brotton and Loftus for example? You've already got the frequent X4 and 5. Any need for the 1 & 2?
There's going to be people making local trips between Lingdale or Boosbeck and Skelton. Are they additional punters to the ones already using the X3 or will they just spread the load even thinner than it is already?
There's the mention of the connections with the train in Saltburn. Other than with the likes Moorsholm or Liverton Mines, the majority are already connected to the rail network already (even if you exclude Teesflex).
Wouldn't the funds have been better used extending existing services to the hospital and Asda?
It's not as if it would have been any more expensive than tendering out these services (and associated dead mileage) to SNE.
I'm all for improving public transport, but I can't see anything other than a colossal waste of funds here.
I mentioned the other week that the P&R site at Steel House might be offered out to SNE as some sort of sweetener after the Teesflex will it stay/will it go fiasco.
Can't help thinking the same has been done here...
(26 Mar 2023, 9:30 pm)Andreos1 wrote [ -> ]I'm not sure that's really the case though. How many buses are needed between Brotton and Loftus for example? You've already got the frequent X4 and 5. Any need for the 1 & 2?
There's going to be people making local trips between Lingdale or Boosbeck and Skelton. Are they additional punters to the ones already using the X3 or will they just spread the load even thinner than it is already?
There's the mention of the connections with the train in Saltburn. Other than with the likes Moorsholm or Liverton Mines, the majority are already connected to the rail network already (even if you exclude Teesflex).
Wouldn't the funds have been better used extending existing services to the hospital and Asda?
It's not as if it would have been any more expensive than tendering out these services (and associated dead mileage) to SNE.
I'm all for improving public transport, but I can't see anything other than a colossal waste of funds here.
I mentioned the other week that the P&R site at Steel House might be offered out to SNE as some sort of sweetener after the Teesflex will it stay/will it go fiasco.
Can't help thinking the same has been done here...
Yeah agreed totally with this. Personally I'd rather they just worked with Arriva and extended the X3/X3A to form a loop doing basically the 1/2. It offers the exact same thing, the only difference is the whole thing could be hourly rather than every 2 hours using the same resources and people from Lingdale would have to go the long way round to the hospital for the once or twice a year they need that.
Not a big fan of tax payers money being spent on things like connecting an ASDA when most people have alternatives in Guisborough and like you said just takes fares from commercial operators especially when it's been said on here the 5/5A haven't recovered well as it is.
The Saltburn -> Hospital -> ASDA -> Skelton -> Lingdale is bloody confusing aswell. Talking about doubling back on yourself or that's how I believe it goes as it's not clear at all.
(26 Mar 2023, 10:48 pm)Storx wrote [ -> ]Yeah agreed totally with this. Personally I'd rather they just worked with Arriva and extended the X3/X3A to form a loop doing basically the 1/2. It offers the exact same thing, the only difference is the whole thing could be hourly rather than every 2 hours using the same resources and people from Lingdale would have to go the long way round to the hospital for the once or twice a year they need that.
Not a big fan of tax payers money being spent on things like connecting an ASDA when most people have alternatives in Guisborough and like you said just takes fares from commercial operators especially when it's been said on here the 5/5A haven't recovered well as it is.
The Saltburn -> Hospital -> ASDA -> Skelton -> Lingdale is bloody confusing aswell. Talking about doubling back on yourself or that's how I believe it goes as it's not clear at all.
It's the total lack of joined up thinking between TVCA, ANE and to a lesser extent, SNE.
The existing network is there and can be adapted - very easily.
Without even getting Teesflex or this 1 & 2 involved.
If Teesflex (or an equivalent) is needed after the X3/X4/5/28 etc are adapted to meet the needs of the natives and there's no scope for the likes of the Coatham 18, then it's the chance for the Teesflex to step up and fill the gaps.
As it stands, that one bus stop at Asda is going to be as busy as Eldon Square (well not quite, but you get the gist) with a Teesflex Merc two, ANE Temsa and SNE E200 all vying for space.
Whilst Brotton High Street is going to be reminiscent of Stockton High Street in the 1980s and punters in Boosbeck have to toss a coin to see if which bus they fancy down to the Co-op in Skelton.
(27 Mar 2023, 11:35 am)Andreos1 wrote [ -> ]It's the total lack of joined up thinking between TVCA, ANE and to a lesser extent, SNE.
The existing network is there and can be adapted - very easily.
Without even getting Teesflex or this 1 & 2 involved.
If Teesflex (or an equivalent) is needed after the X3/X4/5/28 etc are adapted to meet the needs of the natives and there's no scope for the likes of the Coatham 18, then it's the chance for the Teesflex to step up and fill the gaps.
As it stands, that one bus stop at Asda is going to be as busy as Eldon Square (well not quite, but you get the gist) with a Teesflex Merc two, ANE Temsa and SNE E200 all vying for space.
Whilst Brotton High Street is going to be reminiscent of Stockton High Street in the 1980s and punters in Boosbeck have to toss a coin to see if which bus they fancy down to the Co-op in Skelton.
Yeah agreed and this might be a controversial option if there's other places like Liverton which end up with no bus service then maybe there's just no demand for a bus service there. Surely giving them some taxi credit would be better; it's not as if they're poor communities - they chose to live there.
As far as I'm aware it never had a bus service and hasn't for the last few decades at least. I can't exactly just build some houses somewhere and then kick off when there's no buses - there never was one.
Heck even if it works on a basis they can book a discounted taxi to Guisborough or Skelton for £3 each way and the council subsidises the rest to the taxi firm, it's cheaper than running buses for the sake of it as we know fine well they won't be using said taxis.
Similar for the hospital if you have a hospital appointment you can get access to a discounted fare as who else needs a bus to a hospital during the middle of the day and from anywhere without a local bus service (or it'll connect to a bus that takes you there). It's surely cheaper and better.
It's similar for a lot of rural communities imo.
(26 Mar 2023, 8:53 am)col87 wrote [ -> ]Something is going to need doing with the majority of the Manviro 200 withdrawn and it thought at least two more due to be withdrawn soon alongside dart 34611 currently seeming to be out of service the last thing Hartlepool will is losing more buses. I not sure why apparently they can’t cope with full size when they managed perfectly between 1996 - 2010 with full size buses but something needs to be done at Hartlepool and soon so hopefully the delay to this new Saltburn service can be enough time to sort something out.
im sure in the next year or two there was meant to be a delivery of short wheelbase MMCs to one of the divisions down south, the oldest of their E200s were 2014/2015 examples, they would be ideal for SNE if they can get them, ill see if i can find the article
People can always be critical or suggest different routes, but at least the local councillors have fought to try to improve things.
As for the suggestions of working with Arriva to change current routes - well, it would require more than one service to be changed, and you begin adding to already lengthy journey times which puts off more passengers.
IMO, Arriva have consolidated their services gradually over the years, to the extent of often trying to serve too many places per route. Take a town like Redcar for example, which was perfect for a 'town' service. Something like Dormanstown - Redcar - Redcar East - Marske Estate or New Marske. They used to have a local service, but got rid and diverted longer routes. The X3/X4 have to go via Dormanstown, the 62 goes all over the place. Almost everything has to go to Middlesbrough.
If they don't want to commercially operate local services going round the villages, their current network is about as good as it can get in terms of where they can reasonably serve without journey times and 'going round the houses' becoming ridiculous.
(27 Mar 2023, 5:15 pm)tvd wrote [ -> ]People can always be critical or suggest different routes, but at least the local councillors have fought to try to improve things.
As for the suggestions of working with Arriva to change current routes - well, it would require more than one service to be changed, and you begin adding to already lengthy journey times which puts off more passengers.
IMO, Arriva have consolidated their services gradually over the years, to the extent of often trying to serve too many places per route. Take a town like Redcar for example, which was perfect for a 'town' service. Something like Dormanstown - Redcar - Redcar East - Marske Estate or New Marske. They used to have a local service, but got rid and diverted longer routes. The X3/X4 have to go via Dormanstown, the 62 goes all over the place. Almost everything has to go to Middlesbrough.
If they don't want to commercially operate local services going round the villages, their current network is about as good as it can get in terms of where they can reasonably serve without journey times and 'going round the houses' becoming ridiculous.
The thing is though if you worked with the X3/X3A it wouldn't impact anyone like that. The routes literally end half way around both sides of the loop so it won't really impact journey times similar with the 28 if they chose that as it terminates at Lingdale.
I think all of us would agree that extending the 5 or X4 to go around the blocks would be silly.
Instead what your doing is your taking passengers off already struggling services by the lack of services in an evening and Sunday's and potentially putting other services in the red so your doing the complete opposite of what you intended.
Subsidised services should never duplicate commercial routes and these duplicate them way too much. It's more a tick box exercise by TVCA and the councillers than actually really doing anything to really improve public transport. The evening services in that area are dire, the last bus from Middlesbrough to Lingdale for example is 17:25 that's unacceptable imo and that's where money should be spent instead.
Personally I'd rather the money was spent on something like extending the 29 to Lingdale doing the 28 route in an evening and Sundays and give parts of Guisborough, Lingdale and Boosbeck a bus service and also a link from the James Cook to all. That's useful routes.
Fair comments. It's a shame Arriva won't try anything new or even enhancing a service without funding, and then when an alternative like this one comes along they complain to the traffic commission because of a technicality about the short notice.
Arriva are far and away the best option of bus provision in East Cleveland, but like elsewhere they are always too quick to cut and consolidate rather than give an extra journey or route a try to help serve people better.
It's also worth remembering the point of the new 1 and 2 is to provide connections to the growing Skelton Retail estate, and Saltburn station from places like Loftus and surrounding areas which have been asking for a long time. With all due respect to other route suggestions, the purpose isn't to provide a route to Stockton, Thornaby, Nunthorpe, Coulby Newham or anywhere like that.
Long term, I'd imagine an improved DRT / Tees Flex service would be the best option, but I still hope this new service is a success.
(28 Mar 2023, 8:29 am)tvd wrote [ -> ]Fair comments. It's a shame Arriva won't try anything new or even enhancing a service without funding, and then when an alternative like this one comes along they complain to the traffic commission because of a technicality about the short notice.
Arriva are far and away the best option of bus provision in East Cleveland, but like elsewhere they are always too quick to cut and consolidate rather than give an extra journey or route a try to help serve people better.
It's also worth remembering the point of the new 1 and 2 is to provide connections to the growing Skelton Retail estate, and Saltburn station from places like Loftus and surrounding areas which have been asking for a long time. With all due respect to other route suggestions, the purpose isn't to provide a route to Stockton, Thornaby, Nunthorpe, Coulby Newham or anywhere like that.
Long term, I'd imagine an improved DRT / Tees Flex service would be the best option, but I still hope this new service is a success.
I'd bitten my tongue on this when originally mentioned, but if it is the case that ANE did get it thrown out (aye, temporarily) on a technicality, then it really does sum up the state of the bus industry and how they perceive the customer.
The only reason I can think of is that they're clearly worried their monopoly is coming to an end and this 1 & 2 is going to divert punters and profits elsewhere.
(28 Mar 2023, 8:29 am)tvd wrote [ -> ]Fair comments. It's a shame Arriva won't try anything new or even enhancing a service without funding, and then when an alternative like this one comes along they complain to the traffic commission because of a technicality about the short notice.
Arriva are far and away the best option of bus provision in East Cleveland, but like elsewhere they are always too quick to cut and consolidate rather than give an extra journey or route a try to help serve people better.
It's also worth remembering the point of the new 1 and 2 is to provide connections to the growing Skelton Retail estate, and Saltburn station from places like Loftus and surrounding areas which have been asking for a long time. With all due respect to other route suggestions, the purpose isn't to provide a route to Stockton, Thornaby, Nunthorpe, Coulby Newham or anywhere like that.
Long term, I'd imagine an improved DRT / Tees Flex service would be the best option, but I still hope this new service is a success.
Aye can't disagree about the cuts mind but surely this is the point of the Bus Partnerships which are coming in. If you want money from us to prop up your service then you need to do us a favor aswell.
It's all good taking money from the LA's but surely they should give something in return and small route modifications is that.
It'll be interesting to see what happens down there as like you said Arriva has effectively just blocked a local service when they're supposed to be forming a partnership. Not exactly the best thing to do when your meant to be working together and will no doubt leave a bitter taste for some. Mind for balance it'll be interesting if they actually discussed it with Arriva beforehand or just done the tender straight away without discussion. As that would be as bad in fairness and I can't fault Arriva for blocking it, if that's the case.
(28 Mar 2023, 8:29 am)tvd wrote [ -> ]Fair comments. It's a shame Arriva won't try anything new or even enhancing a service without funding, and then when an alternative like this one comes along they complain to the traffic commission because of a technicality about the short notice.
A technicality that the Traffic Commissioner must agree with in order to have not grant it? Which means, they were right to raise it?
Not disputing it will only delay the service coming in, but you can't register a whole new service with 10 days notice, which is what they did (see dates in the link)
https://www.vehicle-operator-licensing.s...ls/608544/
Has anyone got any idea if this route will ever start? Or has everyone just forgot about it? Recent developments mean Arriva's X3A is stopping in July so NO buses will serve ASDA and the retail park.
(04 Jun 2023, 2:59 pm)Michael Euston wrote [ -> ]Has anyone got any idea if this route will ever start? Or has everyone just forgot about it? Recent developments mean Arriva's X3A is stopping in July so NO buses will serve ASDA and the retail park.
Maybe the fact that the X2 replaces the X3A as far as Marske and then diverts up to New Marske to replace the 62, and nothing but Flex (for now) will replace the rest of the route might give an indication of the usage in that part of the world - after all, these changes are partly in response to the reduction in ENCTS payments but also, as with the various changes by GNE and indeed Stagecoach in the last few years, to bring the company into a better footing for this present post-Covid world. Let's not forget Arriva Durham County haven't had any major network changes since before the pandemic (the East Cleveland revisions in 2020 were of course introduced post-Lockdown 1 but had already been lined up for introduction in April before Lockdown happened). The 1/2 are effectively still waiting on clearance from the Traffic Commissioner to start.
(05 Jun 2023, 12:20 pm)Kuyoyo wrote [ -> ] Maybe the fact that the X2 replaces the X3A as far as Marske and then diverts up to New Marske to replace the 62, and nothing but Flex (for now) will replace the rest of the route might give an indication of the usage in that part of the world - after all, these changes are partly in response to the reduction in ENCTS payments but also, as with the various changes by GNE and indeed Stagecoach in the last few years, to bring the company into a better footing for this present post-Covid world. Let's not forget Arriva Durham County haven't had any major network changes since before the pandemic (the East Cleveland revisions in 2020 were of course introduced post-Lockdown 1 but had already been lined up for introduction in April before Lockdown happened). The 1/2 are effectively still waiting on clearance from the Traffic Commissioner to start.
I don't think it's anything more than being unable to replace life expired (or soon to be) vehicles whilst reducing overheads at the expense of revenue.
How else can a thriving, growing community such as Saltburn, with it's schools (that doesn't have scholars provision), beaches etc end up losing out?
Unless of course, the network isn't meeting the needs of the population or the people travelling for work or pleasure?
Throw in the over-flowing car-parks and expanding offer in Skelton and it's pretty obvious there's clearly something amiss.
(05 Jun 2023, 12:41 pm)YeahAndreos1 wrote [ -> ]I don't think it's anything more than being unable to replace life expired (or soon to be) vehicles whilst reducing overheads at the expense of revenue.
How else can a thriving, growing community such as Saltburn, with it's schools (that doesn't have scholars provision), beaches etc end up losing out?
Unless of course, the network isn't meeting the needs of the population or the people travelling for work or pleasure?
Throw in the over-flowing car-parks and expanding offer in Skelton and it's pretty obvious there's clearly something amiss.
Yeah, bus will rarely compete with the private car. Doesn't matter how good the offer is, the convenience of the car will always win.
Would take many years/generational shift to change that perception (or political mindset to prevent cars from getting close to these key areas, which in itself would be political suicide).
Sure, with millions to throw at huge frequency increases and new services to try and change that perception, success may be found eventually, but I don't think any commercial public transport operator has that kind of warchest to revert to in the hope it may be successful eventually.