North East Buses

Believe Blyth and Ashington drivers and engineers have voted overwhelmingly in favour of strike action in their dispute over pay. 
Likelydates will be early to mid April

Some would say the strike has already started the amount of cancellations which have been happening recently.

(19 Mar 2024, 8:40 pm)Bazza wrote [ -> ]Believe Blyth and Ashington drivers and engineers have voted overwhelmingly in favour of strike action in their dispute over pay. 
Likelydates will be early to mid April

Arriva Yorkshire voted the worst operation in the country, Arriva Durham County has been a mess for years, and now Arriva Northumbria overwhelmingly voting to strike. 

It makes you wonder about the credentials of those in charge of Arriva North East & Yorkshire.

(19 Mar 2024, 10:06 pm)mb134 wrote [ -> ]Arriva Yorkshire voted the worst operation in the country, Arriva Durham County has been a mess for years, and now Arriva Northumbria overwhelmingly voting to strike. 

It makes you wonder about the credentials of those in charge of Arriva North East & Yorkshire.

I know who I want to blame for it because the problems of Arriva Yorkshire, Durham and North East seem to very similar to problems which are currently rotting away at GoNorthEast and also the same bloke who had a horrific strike in Manchester aswell.

Rot like that doesn't just go away over night.

(20 Mar 2024, 7:44 am)RobinHood wrote [ -> ]Or maybe the Unite officer leading the negs with Arriva is pushing them out the door, exactly the same as he did with GNE, same person, same agenda. This is politics, and Arriva are the next pawn.

There is a mix of new and inexperienced Arriva internal Unite reps, being led by Mark Sanderson at Unite. He is not willing to negotiate, simply demanding a number and balloting immediately for IA when the business didn't offer it on day one.

Drivers are happy to go out, as Unite will continue to pay them, so very little to lose in hope of a better offer.

I know there will be variable opinions on this, many in favour, but Unite did this with GNE, demanding pay parity with NW, but not terms. A negotiation isn't a negotiation with Unite, and what did they end up with after it all?

The starting pay at Arriva Northumbria, especially that for license holders (£11.19), is massively below what both GNE (£14.27) and Stagecoach (£14.30) are offering. That's not on the union, that's on incompetent management and not understanding the labour market they're hiring in. 

You then have few experienced drivers joining, the new recruits you do have leaving quickly, and the rest of the drivers becoming increasingly annoyed at the abuse they're receiving because management aren't doing their jobs properly - so they leave too.

I don't think the behaviour of the Union has been great, but Arriva management and the decisions they've made for a few years has caused morale to constantly drop and abuse from passengers to constantly rise. I don't blame the drivers for wanting a break from that one bit, especially when the company is making no attempt to fix the underlying issues.

(20 Mar 2024, 12:02 am)Storx wrote [ -> ]I know who I want to blame for it because the problems of Arriva Yorkshire, Durham and North East seem to very similar to problems which are currently rotting away at GoNorthEast and also the same bloke who had a horrific strike in Manchester aswell.

Rot like that doesn't just go away over night.

There's only a certain way of treating rot like that, and that is to remove it completely

(20 Mar 2024, 7:54 am)mb134 wrote [ -> ]The starting pay at Arriva Northumbria, especially that for license holders (£11.19), is massively below what both GNE (£14.27) and Stagecoach (£14.30) are offering. That's not on the union, that's on incompetent management and not understanding the labour market they're hiring in. 

You then have few experienced drivers joining, the new recruits you do have leaving quickly, and the rest of the drivers becoming increasingly annoyed at the abuse they're receiving because management aren't doing their jobs properly - so they leave too.

I don't think the behaviour of the Union has been great, but Arriva management and the decisions they've made for a few years has caused morale to constantly drop and abuse from passengers to constantly rise. I don't blame the drivers for wanting a break from that one bit, especially when the company is making no attempt to fix the underlying issues.

Living wage goes up to £11.44 imminently so that £11.19 will surely have to?  Even worse when it takes 2 year to get to top rate, rather than the 1 year quoted by both GNE & SCNE. 

Or is the reality different and the information on the website is out of date?

(20 Mar 2024, 12:25 pm)V514DFT wrote [ -> ]There's only a certain way of treating rot like that, and that is to remove it completely

Aye totally agreed, hard to do though when the whole company is full of it. Can't just go sacking people, without paying them off and I wouldn't be surprised if some would be over the moon with that anyway.

(20 Mar 2024, 12:31 pm)Chris 1 wrote [ -> ]Living wage goes up to £11.44 imminently so that £11.19 will surely have to?  Even worse when it takes 2 year to get to top rate, rather than the 1 year quoted by both GNE & SCNE. 

Or is the reality different and the information on the website is out of date?

Apologies, it's £11.46 after training at the moment (£11.19 during training, which you'd assume would legally have to increase). It's around a £5.5k difference over the course of a year compared to GNE and Stagecoach - why would anyone with a licence join Arriva?

It'll be interesting to see what happens when the takeover is completed. It's common after a takeover that the people at the top aren't part of the plans. Let's hope they look to bring in new ideas to take the company forward, it has been treading water in the time DB have been looking to sell.

Strike dates set for 7th to 13th and 21st to 27th April.

https://www.unitetheunion.org/news-event...his-spring

Be interesting to see if the:
X14 (Morpeth to Thropton), X15/X18 (North of Alnwick), X16, 434, 57A (Ashington to Cramlington) and 777 run during these strikes with emergency contracts like they did in Hexham in some form of way.

I believe they're all contracted services or subsidised - would give a level of service to most areas of some form, if they can get someone to actually run them.

Anyone know what the union are asking for? I’ve seen driver comments on Facebook alluding to 10%.

(23 Mar 2024, 2:54 pm)Chris 1 wrote [ -> ]Anyone know what the union are asking for? I’ve seen driver comments on Facebook alluding to 10%.

10% is completely unreasonable. Inflation was 4% in December 2023 so anything above that is a good deal on paper. 

Just because the union was a waste of space for years and accepting poor deals doesn't give them the right imo now to suddenly want double inflation deals. 

(I'm not saying 4% is fair either)

(23 Mar 2024, 3:07 pm)Storx wrote [ -> ]10% is completely unreasonable. Inflation was 4% in December 2023 so anything above that is a good deal on paper. 

Just because the union was a waste of space for years and accepting poor deals doesn't give them the right imo now to suddenly want double inflation deals. 

(I'm not saying 4% is fair either)

I was a few Hobgoblins deep so entirely possible I misunderstood the post. 4% makes them the lowest paid out of the big 3 on current year deals.

(23 Mar 2024, 5:01 pm)Chris 1 wrote [ -> ]I was a few Hobgoblins deep so entirely possible I misunderstood the post. 4% makes them the lowest paid out of the big 3 on current year deals.

To be honest it wouldn't surprise me one bit if it was 10% tbh but it's.more Unites failings that really

(23 Mar 2024, 2:54 pm)Chris 1 wrote [ -> ]Anyone know what the union are asking for? I’ve seen driver comments on Facebook alluding to 10%.

Heard on the grapevine that it would be around 6% that the drivers would want (or around £15 per hour). Believe they also want the new starter rate to be significantly increased too - ultimately this being so poor is why they're in such a bad state staffing level wise.

(23 Mar 2024, 6:39 pm)mb134 wrote [ -> ]Heard on the grapevine that it would be around 6% that the drivers would want (or around £15 per hour). Believe they also want the new starter rate to be significantly increased too - ultimately this being so poor is why they're in such a bad state staffing level wise.

That seems totally fair to me if I had to be honest and pretty much should be where it is nowadays imo.

(23 Mar 2024, 7:11 pm)Storx wrote [ -> ]That seems totally fair to me if I had to be honest and pretty much should be where it is nowadays imo.

Yeah, I think essentially they want to be paid similarly to Stagecoach and GNE. Stagecoach go up to £15.01 from May, so I don't think it's unreasonable. 

In terms of the new starter rate, theres a ridiculously high amount of drivers starting then leaving before they get anywhere near the 2 year point where they'd earn top rate. The money simply isn't good enough to retain them, given the demands of the job and increasing antisocial behaviour.

(23 Mar 2024, 7:35 pm)mb134 wrote [ -> ]Yeah, I think essentially they want to be paid similarly to Stagecoach and GNE. Stagecoach go up to £15.01 from May, so I don't think it's unreasonable. 

In terms of the new starter rate, theres a ridiculously high amount of drivers starting then leaving before they get anywhere near the 2 year point where they'd earn top rate. The money simply isn't good enough to retain them, given the demands of the job and increasing antisocial behaviour.

Yeah pretty much, and I'd argue is the pretty going rate really. Wonder if the minibus rota will be scrapped aswell, if it hasn't already - as that's just a farce imo. They're doing the same job.

It'll be interesting to see what happens with the rest of Arriva North East as if I'm right they're paid even less than Arriva Northumbria. Just checked Darlington and their top rate is £13.52 according to the job details - https://www.arrivabusjobs.co.uk/job-desc...1710118861.

Totally unacceptable imo and if they did get their £15.00 an hour, that's 11% before talking about the time difference from December.

The pay rate is the headline, but it is far from the ultimate benchmark.

The consideration of paid breaks (still exist for large proportion of drivers in Durham County for example), plus the black and white rules around paid time (some operators only pay actual platform time, others pay shift time etc).

Only when you build that picture up, do you truly understand the value of the role.

For example, a lower rate paid right through can actually work out better value than a high rate, only paid when you are physically sat in the cab. Both duties might be 10 hours, with 8.5. hours driving time. Driver on £13.50 paid through gets £135. Driver on £15 only paid for platform time gets £127.50. Exactly the same length of time spent essentially at work. Don't be seduced by the rate.

That doesn't for one minute suggest that 4% is or isn't a fair deal, but a simple comparison of pay rates is not a barometer.

(23 Mar 2024, 8:43 pm)RobinHood wrote [ -> ]The pay rate is the headline, but it is far from the ultimate benchmark.

The consideration of paid breaks (still exist for large proportion of drivers in Durham County for example), plus the black and white rules around paid time (some operators only pay actual platform time, others pay shift time etc).

Only when you build that picture up, do you truly understand the value of the role.

For example, a lower rate paid right through can actually work out better value than a high rate, only paid when you are physically sat in the cab. Both duties might be 10 hours, with 8.5. hours driving time. Driver on £13.50 paid through gets £135. Driver on £15 only paid for platform time gets £127.50. Exactly the same length of time spent essentially at work. Don't be seduced by the rate.

That doesn't for one minute suggest that 4% is or isn't a fair deal, but a simple comparison of pay rates is not a barometer.

Yeah valid points, must admit I thought paid driver breaks were long gone across the whole of Arriva North East, if I had to be honest. So wasn't really something I thought about.

(23 Mar 2024, 8:43 pm)RobinHood wrote [ -> ]The pay rate is the headline, but it is far from the ultimate benchmark.

The consideration of paid breaks (still exist for large proportion of drivers in Durham County for example), plus the black and white rules around paid time (some operators only pay actual platform time, others pay shift time etc).

Only when you build that picture up, do you truly understand the value of the role.

For example, a lower rate paid right through can actually work out better value than a high rate, only paid when you are physically sat in the cab. Both duties might be 10 hours, with 8.5. hours driving time. Driver on £13.50 paid through gets £135. Driver on £15 only paid for platform time gets £127.50. Exactly the same length of time spent essentially at work. Don't be seduced by the rate.

That doesn't for one minute suggest that 4% is or isn't a fair deal, but a simple comparison of pay rates is not a barometer.

Thank you for the insight. I’m salary based with flexi time personally, so unpaid elements of a shift aren’t things I really need to think about.

Out of interest, are Arriva trying to alter any terms and conditions?

From a new starter perspective, taking salary alone would I be right in thinking that GNE and ANE are broadly similar in terms of how drivers are paid? So GNE in effect sign on to sign off minus 30 mins and ANE sign on to sign off minus 45 mins?

Blyth/Ashington and GNE both quote 39 hours. Assuming 4% that would make Northumbria £14.72 vs GNE @ £14.84 come June. But GNE I’m on top rate quicker.

(23 Mar 2024, 8:50 pm)Storx wrote [ -> ]Yeah valid points, must admit I thought paid driver breaks were long gone across the whole of Arriva North East, if I had to be honest. So wasn't really something I thought about.

They are in Northumbria, but not completely in Durham County. Northumbria have a maximum 45 minutes sign off.

(20 Mar 2024, 1:35 pm)mb134 wrote [ -> ]Apologies, it's £11.46 after training at the moment (£11.19 during training, which you'd assume would legally have to increase). It's around a £5.5k difference over the course of a year compared to GNE and Stagecoach - why would anyone with a licence join Arriva?

It's £11.19 if you start on the minibus rota at Ashington, even if you're already a licence holder. How on earth Arriva hope to recruit experienced drivers when the starting rate is miles behind GNE and Stagecoach is baffling.....

(23 Mar 2024, 3:07 pm)Storx wrote [ -> ]10% is completely unreasonable. Inflation was 4% in December 2023 so anything above that is a good deal on paper. 

Just because the union was a waste of space for years and accepting poor deals doesn't give them the right imo now to suddenly want double inflation deals. 

(I'm not saying 4% is fair either)

I'm not sure it matters whether you (or anyone else) think 10% is unreasonable. It's a matter for the Union members to decide, and they've overwhelmingly decided that the offer on the table is unreasonable.

% isn't always a great measure. 10% for a bus driver is not a lot compared to 10% for a chief executive.

It's a bit unfair for you to suggest the Union is a 'waste of space'. I'm assuming you realise that it's members collectively who decide whether to accept, reject or go out on strike over an offer. The employed officers simply work to instruction from the members and reps.

Unite are also a much different organisation now, under their current leadership. They'll not be messed about and they're not afraid to use their huge hardship fund.

(23 Mar 2024, 8:43 pm)RobinHood wrote [ -> ]The pay rate is the headline, but it is far from the ultimate benchmark.

The consideration of paid breaks (still exist for large proportion of drivers in Durham County for example), plus the black and white rules around paid time (some operators only pay actual platform time, others pay shift time etc).

Only when you build that picture up, do you truly understand the value of the role.

For example, a lower rate paid right through can actually work out better value than a high rate, only paid when you are physically sat in the cab. Both duties might be 10 hours, with 8.5. hours driving time. Driver on £13.50 paid through gets £135. Driver on £15 only paid for platform time gets £127.50. Exactly the same length of time spent essentially at work. Don't be seduced by the rate.

That doesn't for one minute suggest that 4% is or isn't a fair deal, but a simple comparison of pay rates is not a barometer.

I think your example highlights a real issue in the industry, and whilst I'm not for one minute suggesting it's unique to buses, but for too long businesses done their utmost to drive down pay and conditions.

This, added with overcomplicated scheduling practices, has left us at the point where we're resorting to meaningless measures to decide someone's rate of pay.

I'm still not sure that 'platform time' is entirely legal, as it's encouraging individuals to do work in their own time. We previously had cited examples of changeovers not being paid time. There's almost a legal precedence supporting this, too: the Sports Direct minimum wage case.

We really need to get out of this idea that a pay increase has to be paid for to the workers' detriment. There clearly needs to be some workplace reforms in most of the large operators, but it needs to be done sensibly and not seen as a cost-cutting exercise.

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Suspended whilst Unite take a revised offer back to their members, as per the Arriva North East facebook page.

(02 Apr 2024, 2:28 pm)Chris 1 wrote [ -> ]Suspended whilst Unite take a revised offer back to their members, as per the Arriva North East facebook page.

Guessing it must be a reletively positive offer, which might be accepted, since they've suspended the strike action.

I know we all have our feeling about Arriva, and rightly so, but it's nice it appears they actually want to avoid the strike, unlike other companies in the North East and also rail services which were more interested in playing high school politics.

(02 Apr 2024, 8:00 pm)Storx wrote [ -> ]Guessing it must be a reletively positive offer, which might be accepted, since they've suspended the strike action.

In my experience on the TU side, you'd only suspend strike action if you feel it's an offer that you could recommend to your members.

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(02 Apr 2024, 8:14 pm)Adrian wrote [ -> ]In my experience on the TU side, you'd only suspend strike action if you feel it's an offer that you could recommend to your members.

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Thanks for confirming, I thought that would be the case, but wasn't 100% sure.