North East Buses

I was reading the manifesto of Kim McGuiness and one the things buried in there is a review of bus stops in the region to make them accessible to disabled people - A very noble aim.

Is this realistic though? There a load I can think of which are just a piece of hard standing and the geography means that is all that can be done. And then you have unmarked stops.

Are we inadvertently going to see the closure of some bus stops - which will actually reduce mobility?

A new independent organisation setup which has a set of objectives ran by people with experience of running buses with absolutely no intervention from certain councillors or anyone currently at the top of Nexus.

They're not fit for purpose.

For the bus stops no doubt they'll just build more in the middle of nowhere like the millions wasted for the 2 bus stops on the A1 in Northumberland.

(04 May 2024, 7:06 am)DeltaMan wrote [ -> ]I was reading the manifesto of Kim McGuiness and one the things buried in there is a review of bus stops in the region to make them accessible to disabled people - A very noble aim.

Is this realistic though? There a load I can think of which are just a piece of hard standing and the geography means that is all that can be done. And then you have unmarked stops.

Are we inadvertently going to see the closure of some bus stops - which will actually reduce mobility?

I do believe most places can be made accessible quite easily, its negotiating badly parked cars that is the biggest obstacle to me for accessibility. Getting close to the kerb to drop the step down as close as possible, making the kerb stick out around parked cars is another solution, you can also make the path higher at the stops quite easily too. A lot of the work has already been done for this in Sunderland recently.

The biggest thing for me is getting more electric buses on the roads in more places, and hopefully the funding isn't centred in just Newcastle.

Build a network that fits the needs of 2024 and beyond. Recruit people with new ideas of how to do that.

A personal wish, remove all the Streetlites on the roads. I hate travelling on them

I can decided whether Kim should just tinker with what we've got or satrt with a clean slate? Maybe 4rd November 2024 new routes, new numbers, new bus ( or new paint old bus) and long enough to let everyone know what's happening via leaflet drop and signs on buses and advertising.

Biggest thing for me is eceywehere haveing a bus every 30 minutes peak time at lease. if not more

Does anyone know what her bus brand will be called as I know "Angel Network" is her plans name but if she were to call the bus brand that surely the word Angel would have no meaning to the people of Northumberland...

(04 May 2024, 8:33 pm)d9817362 wrote [ -> ]Does anyone know what her bus brand will be called as I know "Angel Network" is her plans name but if she were to call the bus brand that surely the word Angel would have no meaning to the people of Northumberland...

I hope it is just a name for the project and not for the final product.

Same, it would seem quite an irrelevant name for some parts of the region. I think just a general NE Buses or North East Buses would do.

Honestly, I can imagine it’s just going to be a cut and paste version of Manchester’s Bee Network, at least in urban areas, which is going to make it complicated with how rural a large part of the Mayoral zone is.

(04 May 2024, 9:25 pm)deanmachine wrote [ -> ]Honestly, I can imagine it’s just going to be a cut and paste version of Manchester’s Bee Network, at least in urban areas, which is going to make it complicated with how rural a large part of the Mayoral zone is.

It won't work either considering there's absolutely no depot serving most of South West / South Durham. The whole network in Bishop Auckland, Sedgefield, Newton Aycliffe and Barnard Castle would effectively be depotless (other than the 6, 56 and X21) since they work from Darlington and Stockton and both depots are beyond the touch of them.

Northumberland isn't much better either since the independents all have work beyond tenders so they won't be too open to give up their depots either and Hexham is now an outstation of a depot miles away and not connected in any sensible way either.

Hopefully in the new system I imagine the independents will be the backbone of the rural operations. Lets face it, they are in a far better position to deliver services than the big operators in those areas.

(04 May 2024, 9:36 pm)Storx wrote [ -> ]It won't work either considering there's absolutely no depot serving most of South West / South Durham. The whole network in Bishop Auckland, Sedgefield, Newton Aycliffe and Barnard Castle would effectively be depotless (other than the 6, 56 and X21) since they work from Darlington and Stockton and both depots are beyond the touch of them.

Northumberland isn't much better either since the independents all have work beyond tenders so they won't be too open to give up their depots either and Hexham is now an outstation of a depot miles away and not connected in any sensible way either.

I think that's a very good point about depots. I think it will be very interesting to see how they could make franchising work for rural areas in the North East. 

The only one I can think of north of Ashington is Borders Buses in Berwick, and there work is mainly cross border, and you'd assume out of scope of the Mayor. 

No doubt there will be yards owned by the council that could be used as outstations. Transport for Cornwall use council land to park buses overnight. But buses need fuel and heavy maintenance, so it needs to be thought out.

(05 May 2024, 5:01 am)DeltaMan wrote [ -> ]I think that's a very good point about depots. I think it will be very interesting to see how they could make franchising work for rural areas in the North East. 

The only one I can think of north of Ashington is Borders Buses in Berwick, and there work is mainly cross border, and you'd assume out of scope of the Mayor. 

No doubt there will be yards owned by the council that could be used as outstations. Transport for Cornwall use council land to park buses overnight. But buses need fuel and heavy maintenance, so it needs to be thought out.

Yeah totally agreed, only other one I can think of is the Travelsure yard at Belford, but unsure what state that will be in since it's currently abandoned. To be fair even some of the more urban areas could be problematic. Like picking somewhere like North Tyneside, if they had a small tranch of routes, who is realistically going to be bidding for them other than the likes of GCT. There's no independents in the area who can pick up numerous routes and GNE / Arriva / Stagecoach are all out of it as they won't have a depot to run the work from unless they kept one of their depots outside the tendering. Doing that though will then mess up the big tenders instead though.

East Durham being another one with similar problems, if GNE don't have Deptford and Arriva don't have Belmont then who realistically is going to be bidding for that?

I hope they actually think about this stuff rather than going in like a bull in a china shop which wouldn't surprise me up here.

The Bee Network wasn’t introduced in one big overnight full swoop. It was done gradually, area by area. The same thing will happen here, so there will be more than enough time to iron out what will happen in the more rural locations and plenty of notice.

(05 May 2024, 12:17 pm)markydh wrote [ -> ]The Bee Network wasn’t introduced in one big overnight full swoop. It was done gradually, area by area. The same thing will happen here, so there will be more than enough time to iron out what will happen in the more rural locations and plenty of notice.

It's a completely different network though, franchising in an urban area is simple as there's numerous depots overlapping each other so choice can be made. In comparison to here there's 2 depots in the whole of Co. Durham, to pick one area. There's numerous routes like the 1, 5, 7, 8, X75, X76 which are fully operated from depots outside the area and are arguably some of the most important routes in the area aswell.

Unless you're planning to build new depots then there's absolutely no where you can tender those from using the Bee Network model. Similar problems start with the X12 and X21 aswell, so unless your planning to double the size of Belmont or build multiple new depots then something needs to change otherwise there won't be any competitive tendering using the current depots as Arriva will be the only people who can operate them and will just charge whatever they want, otherwise you're going to have to let them run them commercially which then defeats the point of it if half the network in SE Durham isn't franchised.

We don’t know which model they are going to use yet. They might use a route by route system like London where you tender for each route. If that was to happen here then you may well get independents tendering for the route s they operate now. It will interesting to see what happens.

(05 May 2024, 12:52 pm)RMF1254 wrote [ -> ]We don’t know which model they are going to use yet. They might use a route by route system like London where you tender for each route. If that was to happen here then you may well get independents tendering for the route s they operate now. It will interesting to see what happens.

Aye, not sure that would be a good system though mind as you'd just end up with them taking the piss. Like only realistically Ashington could run the routes to Berwick, Darlington could only run the X75/X76 and so on.

Who knows tbh. It'll be a bit of a complex one to fix without giving Arriva and GNE a nice pay off for their shareholders though as they're the two that win from the above.

We’ll have to be positive about it though as it looks like it will happen now.

(05 May 2024, 12:52 pm)RMF1254 wrote [ -> ]We don’t know which model they are going to use yet. They might use a route by route system like London where you tender for each route. If that was to happen here then you may well get independents tendering for the route s they operate now. It will interesting to see what happens.

Or outsiders coming in. 

That would really shake it up.

(05 May 2024, 3:07 pm)Andreos1 wrote [ -> ]Or outsiders coming in. 

That would really shake it up.

That's the interesting part for me. Metroline came from absolutely nowhere to pretty much dominate the final phase of Bee Network contracts

Our region will be a much smaller scale but lower operating costs and far more potential for proft, I imagine lots are looking on with interest

Who knows maybe we will end up with First Bus or Metroline in the North East. That would be a sight.

(05 May 2024, 12:40 pm)Storx wrote [ -> ]It's a completely different network though, franchising in an urban area is simple as there's numerous depots overlapping each other so choice can be made. In comparison to here there's 2 depots in the whole of Co. Durham, to pick one area. There's numerous routes like the 1, 5, 7, 8, X75, X76 which are fully operated from depots outside the area and are arguably some of the most important routes in the area aswell.

Unless you're planning to build new depots then there's absolutely no where you can tender those from using the Bee Network model. Similar problems start with the X12 and X21 aswell, so unless your planning to double the size of Belmont or build multiple new depots then something needs to change otherwise there won't be any competitive tendering using the current depots as Arriva will be the only people who can operate them and will just charge whatever they want, otherwise you're going to have to let them run them commercially which then defeats the point of it if half the network in SE Durham isn't franchised.

In that case, cross-boundary routes may be exempted from franchising, especially those worked from depots outside Kim's area.

I don't reckon Ben will be keen on bus franchising.  I don't believe he even pledged it.

(04 May 2024, 8:33 pm)d9817362 wrote [ -> ]Does anyone know what her bus brand will be called as I know "Angel Network" is her plans name but if she were to call the bus brand that surely the word Angel would have no meaning to the people of Northumberland...

Interestingly, GNE don't seem to own the trademark for Angel, I would have presumed they would given it's their 'flagship' route!

I would be in favour of route by route

It means we can still have a say and complain to an extent.

We also have a risk that GCT could say run 50 routes ???

We could also see ideas like the "superloop" introduced

We could also see later buses in rural areas.

We could also see depots close or merge or make super depots. Personally I would close Blyth and Ashington depot and build a bigger depot say at Moor Farm Roundabout /Cramlington area.

This would then mean buses a shift and change last buses terminus points but realistic a good central point for say Arriva to operate from.
15mins to Ashington
10 mins to blyth
10 mins cramlington
15 mins to Morpeth
20 mins to Newcastle City Centre
5 minutes from Cramlington Hospital (key factor)
Yeah it would be a shakeup but it also means direct routes could be created to serve a specific spot then travel light back to the depot.

Cramlington town Centre to Cramlington Hospital then to Blyth Town Centre

This would give an option to run dead milage from these two areas before going off.

Same as a Morpeth -Ashington - cramlington town centre - cramlington Hospital

Newcastle Northumberland Park Killingworth - Cramlington Hospital

Wallsend Metro Silverlink/Cobalt Northumberland Park Metro (gives a quick direct link between the two metro lines) Killingworth Bus Station then A19 up to to Cramlington Hospital

All these services then mean the services will run with reduced dead milage

Why make cramlington Hospital a hub with different services from North of the Tyne and Northumberland? Easy the Hospital is the key one that everyone gets sent to but Noone knows how to get to it by bus

Eg. RVI is Newcastle City centre really

Freeman quite a few services people recognise

Coast road buses 309 for rake lane QE number of services pass even Sunderland royal quite a few regional services all pass but I couldn't tell you how to get to Cramlington Hospital by bus.

It could also be an advantage and quicker link to get to Northumberland too

Creating the vision is what is needed.

There would also be nothing stopping changing routes especially last buses this bus operates to Cramlington Hospital

(06 May 2024, 7:57 am)DaveFromUpNorth wrote [ -> ]I would be in favour of route by route

It means we can still have a say and complain to an extent.

We also have a risk that GCT could say run 50 routes ???

We could also see ideas like the "superloop" introduced

We could also see later buses in rural areas.

We could also see depots close or merge or make super depots. Personally I would close Blyth and Ashington depot and build a bigger depot say at Moor Farm Roundabout /Cramlington area.

This would then mean buses a shift and change last buses terminus points but realistic a good central point for say Arriva to operate from.
15mins to Ashington
10 mins to blyth
10 mins cramlington
15 mins to Morpeth
20 mins to Newcastle City Centre
5 minutes from Cramlington Hospital (key factor)
Yeah it would be a shakeup but it also means direct routes could be created to serve a specific spot  then travel light back to the depot.

Cramlington town Centre to Cramlington Hospital then to Blyth Town Centre 

This would give an option to run dead milage from these two areas before going off.

Same as a Morpeth -Ashington - cramlington town centre - cramlington Hospital

Newcastle Northumberland Park  Killingworth - Cramlington Hospital

Wallsend Metro Silverlink/Cobalt Northumberland Park Metro (gives a quick direct link between the two metro lines) Killingworth Bus Station then A19 up to to Cramlington Hospital

All these services then mean the services will run with reduced dead milage

Why make cramlington Hospital a hub with different services from North of the Tyne and Northumberland?  Easy the Hospital is the key one that everyone gets sent to but Noone knows how to get to it by bus

Eg. RVI is Newcastle City centre really

Freeman quite a few services people recognise

Coast road buses 309 for rake lane  QE  number of services pass  even Sunderland royal quite a few regional services all pass but I couldn't tell you how to get to Cramlington Hospital by bus.

It could also be an advantage and quicker link to get to Northumberland too

Creating the vision  is what is needed.

There would also be nothing stopping changing routes especially last buses this bus operates to Cramlington Hospital

Disagree about the hospital personally. If I was doing a hub, I'd do it at the West side of Manor Walks with the train station moved and offer connections with the railway instead - maybe try and get Lumo or someone similar to stop and offer connections further afield. Manor Walks is where people actually want to be, not the hospital. You could then offer a decent link between there and the hospital.

The Manchester model would be better than individual routes in the North East though as you'd just be feeding Arriva routes on a plate, least under the Manchester Arriva could be given the boot.

Don't agree with a super depot either, would just increase costs for the tax payer imo we need more depots not less.

Picking out Northumberland / North Tyneside as they're really connected ideally we need

Berwick Area (Mini Depot): Berwick Locals
Alnwick Area (Mini Depot): Alnwick Locals
Ashington (Main Depot) + Belford, Travelsure Depot? (Outstation): 1/2/35/777/X14/X15/X16/X18/X20/X21/X22
Cramlington (New Main Depot): X7/X8/X9/X10/X11/19/43/44/45/57/57A/353
Percy Main (Main Depot): 1/306/307/308/309/317/351/354
North Tyneside Area (Mini Depot): W1/W2/335/342/359
SE Northumberland Area (Mini Depot): 59/434/Morpeth Locals
Blyth Depot: Sold for regeneration

355/47/553 based from a Newcastle depot.

It's the only way your really going to actually have any competition for the routes. Mini depots, being the local independents routes for the likes of GCT, Glen Valley or Border Buses to bid for with the others being bid by the big boys, with maybe someone like Metroline or alternative throwing a bid in.

Obviously those routes assuming no changes

Route wise, I'd look at creating a proper midi bus network from Cramlington based from the new depot so you'd end up with something like, all every 30 minutes all linking at the new hub.

Route 1: Cramlington to North Shields via Killingworth (353)
Route 2: Cramlington to Whitley Bay via Seghill (57A)
Route 3: Cramlington to North Shields via East Cramlington (19)
Route 4: Cramlington to Morpeth via Bedlington (43)
Route 5: Cramlington to Ashington via Bedlington and Bedlington Station (old 19 Route)

The routes are all a mess currently being too long or bolted onto other services such as the 43 and it's causing delays for people wanting to be nowhere the trouble spots.

Problem is Bebside ashington and cramlington and the new line all need an express bus to create competition also

(06 May 2024, 10:16 am)DaveFromUpNorth wrote [ -> ]Problem is Bebside ashington and cramlington  and the new line all need an express bus to create competition also

Aye no arguments tbh, personally I'd leave them mostly alone. The X21/X22 are fine really, maybe a frequency drop if the numbers drop substantially but I wouldn't do that straight away. I'd be tempted to mess around with the Blyth ones and integrate the X7/X8/X63 together maybe something like the below with the X8 terminated short and the X7/X8/X9/X10 all running every 20 minutes to compensate which will boost the service for most even known there's actually less Newcastle buses.

ie.
[attachment=10725]

Combine it with a little local network from Cramlington and there's arguably no lost links, maybe like the below. Whether you want to merge some routes together then that's always an option:
[attachment=10722]

It's much the same as now really but increase frequency up from 2 BPH to 3 BPH for most people and better Killingworth links with Cramlington acting as a super hub, you'd technically have 7 BPH between Cramlington and the Hospital and a link from Killingworth aswell for those heading from the South. Not to mention places like Fern Drive and Backworth getting a much improved service to Newcastle.

Think the big things that need taken into account if we get the opportunity:

- Bus / metro integration for the areas that currently have 'mickey mouse' services paid for by the taxpayer (351 etc) and instead, provide seamless bus / metro integration with contactless payments and early to late service....as long as integration is guaranteed.

- Bus / metro integration for areas and routes facing increasing congestion issues or needless overbussing (i.e 308 & 309 around East North Tyneside, endless Cross River services that just terminate in Newcastle and don't go beyond)

(07 May 2024, 8:03 am)L469 YVK wrote [ -> ]Think the big things that need taken into account if we get the opportunity:

- Bus / metro integration for the areas that currently have 'mickey mouse' services paid for by the taxpayer (351 etc) and instead, provide seamless bus / metro integration with contactless payments and early to late service....as long as integration is guaranteed.

- Bus / metro integration for areas and routes facing increasing congestion issues or needless overbussing (i.e 308 & 309 around East North Tyneside, endless Cross River services that just terminate in Newcastle and don't go beyond)

Disagree with terminating buses short at Gateshead. Bus / metro integration only really works if the vast majority of the journey is on the mass transit. Forcing someone to sit on a bus for 30 minutes to drop them off short by 5 minutes before the end of the journey is just frustrating and isn't good integration.

The only two routes which could be done are the 27 and 57 imo as both have an integration at Heworth and the unique sections have the 58 nearby anyway.

(07 May 2024, 9:26 am)Storx wrote [ -> ]Disagree with terminating buses short at Gateshead. Bus / metro integration only really works if the vast majority of the journey is on the mass transit. Forcing someone to sit on a bus for 30 minutes to drop them off short by 5 minutes before the end of the journey is just frustrating and isn't good integration.

The only two routes which could be done are the 27 and 57 imo as both have an integration at Heworth and the unique sections have the 58 nearby anyway.

You'll be surprised but I think termination buses at gateshead is a good idea ( when metro allows this). 

Take the orbit 51 and 52 circle of gateshead.  As far back as i can remember this terminated at Gateshead. Had the joy of me and the ex crocodile first house in Halow green so used this to get to town, either by bus and bus or bus and metro. ( i was more annoyed that no one , driver or other advtised you could get a through ticket) Never bother me.  Then GNE change it to the q1 q2 when the "saved the buses on the quay side" and it ment direct route to Town.  Then they've changed it back again and have to say ( and i do get either 51 or 52 often) i've never heard anyone moan.

Also take the29, Used to run kibblesworth to gateshead then when changed went to town. Loads got off at gateshead when i used it and waited for a bus to town and never moaned. In fact the biggest moans were there was no coffee shop on that side of the bus station and that they would like the buses to town to go to different area like west road for discovery museum, direct to big market/central station. and northern area of town  Handcock and uni's/.  They also moaned more when it stop at market street rather than Eldon Sq

I think you would have the obvoius moans if most buest from the south and east terminated at Gateshead ( some are on here) but people would get used to it and it would help the buses that continued into town get there.