North East Buses

(25 Jul 2014, 6:45 pm)Marcus wrote [ -> ]Oh, I was just using their tickets as an example of how Arriva haven't seemed to have 'jumped' into the next generation. Some of their Prestiges didn't get a repaint from being new to being withdrawn!

I don't understand. Have they gone from being 'severely outdated' to the next generation within the space of 4 posts?

(25 Jul 2014, 8:14 pm)mb134 wrote [ -> ]What exactly is wrong with Arriva's tickets?

I dunno. I'd say they contain exactly the same info as GNE and Stagecoach's?

(25 Jul 2014, 9:49 pm)aureolin wrote [ -> ]I dunno. I'd say they contain exactly the same info as GNE and Stagecoach's?

Exactly what I was thinking as well, what more can a ticket do?

(25 Jul 2014, 9:48 pm)aureolin wrote [ -> ]I don't understand. Have they gone from being 'severely outdated' to the next generation within the space of 4 posts?

I just feel like Arriva have just not made as many leaps forward as GNE and Stagecoach have.

Those strips just aren't what I'm used to, it seems like those types of tickets have been around for years now (if I recall, GNE used similar ones before transferring to their current type) and just seem outdated by what GNE and SNE use.

(25 Jul 2014, 11:21 pm)Marcus wrote [ -> ]I just feel like Arriva have just not made as many leaps forward as GNE and Stagecoach have.

Those strips just aren't what I'm used to, it seems like those types of tickets have been around for years now (if I recall, GNE used similar ones before transferring to their current type) and just seem outdated by what GNE and SNE use.

GNE never used that style.

(25 Jul 2014, 11:21 pm)Marcus wrote [ -> ]I just feel like Arriva have just not made as many leaps forward as GNE and Stagecoach have.

Would you not count the Live Map as a leap forward? Yes it might not work 100% of the time but when it does it's pretty damn useful

(26 Jul 2014, 7:44 am)mb134 wrote [ -> ]Would you not count the Live Map as a leap forward? Yes it might not work 100% of the time but when it does it's pretty damn useful

I think the perception of Arriva NE is that it always takes time to catch up to everyone else. The investment going in this year will hopefully start to change that... Once all of the Max schemes are up and running and the Sapphire routes get launched the fleet will be unrecognisable from the present fleet!

(26 Jul 2014, 7:53 am)tyresmoke wrote [ -> ]I think the perception of Arriva NE is that it always takes time to catch up to everyone else. The investment going in this year will hopefully start to change that... Once all of the Max schemes are up and running and the Sapphire routes get launched the fleet will be unrecognisable from the present fleet!

I agree with this.

One of the reasons I did have a soft spot for Arriva when first starting out as an enthusiast was the fact that their fleet seemed so old compared to other operators' fleets; although both of the other main operators had vehicles just as elderly, I think it was mainly down to the fact that they'd been repainted, making them look slightly younger.

Of the three operators in the North East, I'm inclined to suggest that Arriva will see the most new arrivals this year - though of course, as Arriva typically favour light-weight vehicles, this should be expected. Nevertheless, the continued flow of investment should gain Arriva a few brownie points with us enthusiasts, and hopefully tie them over for a good few years before the fleet starts to show its age again.

The introduction of their real time technology applications came as something somewhat unusual, given that new technology does seem to be the forté of Go North East opposed to Arriva North East - but it being released first does but competitors at an advantage, as they'll be aware of any issues which Arriva may have had with it, and be able to improve their technology whilst still in development.

(25 Jul 2014, 2:23 pm)aureolin wrote [ -> ]Emailed Go North East earlier, and my query was answered and dealt with in just over 30 minutes. Now that's worth mentioning as exceptional.

In other news, I'm towards the end of the 3rd week since Arriva were going to investigate why the X2 (Durham board) yet again failed to stop at Birtley shops...

If you were travelling towards Durham, the X2 only stops at the Cenotaph then Barley Mow as far as I'm aware anyway

(25 Jul 2014, 11:21 pm)Marcus wrote [ -> ]I just feel like Arriva have just not made as many leaps forward as GNE and Stagecoach have.

Those strips just aren't what I'm used to, it seems like those types of tickets have been around for years now (if I recall, GNE used similar ones before transferring to their current type) and just seem outdated by what GNE and SNE use.

The reason the tickets seem similar is because Arriva now use the new version of the Wayfarer machines that used to be used by other operators. Although they aren't brilliant, they certainly have a few benefits over the ERG model which GNE have (including GPS that works)

(26 Jul 2014, 8:33 am)palatine3833 wrote [ -> ]If you were travelling towards Durham, the X2 only stops at the Cenotaph then Barley Mow as far as I'm aware anyway

http://liners.nexus.org.uk/22952.pdf

It's listed to stop at Birtley on the timetable at the stop. Perhaps one you can chase up...in addition to the POP cards, of course!
Does seem the depot fails to tell drivers one or two things that are crucial to know - one bad experience for a customer can resort to them making alternative arrangements for travel, especially when there is (heavy) competition in the area... It's not great if drivers are unaware of where a service stops, or the ticketing options available on that service.

(26 Jul 2014, 8:35 am)palatine3833 wrote [ -> ]The reason the tickets seem similar is because Arriva now use the new version of the Wayfarer machines that used to be used by other operators. Although they aren't brilliant, they certainly have a few benefits over the ERG model which GNE have (including GPS that works)

Good job other hardware can be used to ensure that all vehicles can be traced! We've already discussed Arriva's system for real time information being less than ideal - Go North East won't have this problem.

Personally not a fan of the Wayfarer machines Arriva use.

(26 Jul 2014, 8:33 am)palatine3833 wrote [ -> ]If you were travelling towards Durham, the X2 only stops at the Cenotaph then Barley Mow as far as I'm aware anyway

By timetable, it should only stop at the War Memorial, and then Barley Mow Shops. My gripe is that certain drivers choose to stop opposite the old Somerfield instead. Further along, they stop just before the railway bridge after the Barley Mow pub, instead of the actual shops opposite Carcraft.

Incredibly disappointed with my recent complaint regarding the last X3 being 6 minutes (or whatever it was) early.

On my initial response back, she confirmed that the bus got to East Boldon, Blacks Corner at 17:36, so it was on time.

I thanked her for her reply and for chasing it up for me, but pointed out that the bus wasn't due to depart that stop until 17:39, so by her own admission, it was 3 minutes early. I also asked her to check what time the vehicle got back to the depot and compare it against the driver's running board in my response to her - knowing that the driver would have arrived much earlier than s/he should have (given that it's not scheduled to arrive at the terminus until 17:50, I waited from 17:44 for a photo, and it didn't arrive after I got there).

I received another e-mail today with an apology for the mistake, and she told me that her colleague has informed her that the bus didn't depart Blacks Corner until 17:38:48 - so it was 12 seconds early. So I think someone's telling porkies somewhere along the line, because apparently, the X3 which is scheduled to take 10 minutes to the location I was at for a photograph, only took 5 minutes (i.e. impossible). The fact that nothing was said about the time the driver got back into the depot says it all for me!

(01 Aug 2014, 11:33 am)Dan wrote [ -> ]Incredibly disappointed with my recent complaint regarding the last X3 being 6 minutes (or whatever it was) early.

On my initial response back, she confirmed that the bus got to East Boldon, Blacks Corner at 17:36, so it was on time.

I thanked her for her reply and for chasing it up for me, but pointed out that the bus wasn't due to depart that stop until 17:39, so by her own admission, it was 3 minutes early. I also asked her to check what time the vehicle got back to the depot and compare it against the driver's running board in my response to her - knowing that the driver would have arrived much earlier than s/he should have (given that it's not scheduled to arrive at the terminus until 17:50, I waited from 17:44 for a photo, and it didn't arrive after I got there).

I received another e-mail today with an apology for the mistake, and she told me that her colleague has informed her that the bus didn't depart Blacks Corner until 17:38:48 - so it was 12 seconds early. So I think someone's telling porkies somewhere along the line, because apparently, the X3 which is scheduled to take 10 minutes to the location I was at for a photograph, only took 5 minutes (i.e. impossible). The fact that nothing was said about the time the driver got back into the depot says it all for me!

Forgive my ignorance but...

Would a bus company, under normal circumstances, release this information to any member of the public?

And...

If the bus arrived back the depot, say, one minute early, would anyone notice?

Would anyone notice if a driver got back to the depot a minute late?

The running board accounts for neither.

(01 Aug 2014, 12:24 pm)AdamY wrote [ -> ]Forgive my ignorance but...

Would a bus company, under normal circumstances, release this information to any member of the public?

And...

If the bus arrived back the depot, say, one minute early, would anyone notice?

Would anyone notice if a driver got back to the depot a minute late?

The running board accounts for neither.

If requested, on the grounds that it could assist determine how early a bus actually was, I'd imagine so?

If, let's say, the bus arrived back into the depot for 17:50 when it was actually due to terminate at Monkwearmouth, it would have clearly been very early... I don't know how much time the driver used to get from Monkwearmouth to Deptford, but if it was around 5 minutes, the driver should have been getting back at 17:55 rather than 17:50 in this example - and this would have been reflected by the fact the driver was operating early whilst in service. This is how it affects customers, and this is when they'd notice.

A criticism I often have is that it should be 100% clear whether your complaint is either being upheld or not. In your case it's certainly not clear Dan, and I know I've not had that clarity until I challenge it a few times.

(01 Aug 2014, 1:42 pm)aureolin wrote [ -> ]A criticism I often have is that it should be 100% clear whether your complaint is either being upheld or not. In your case it's certainly not clear Dan, and I know I've not had that clarity until I challenge it a few times.

I agree. It can be incredibly disappointing when, in my case, you finally muster up the courage to complain about something that's been on your shoulders for a while, then they don't even bother to reply......

(01 Aug 2014, 11:33 am)Dan wrote [ -> ]Incredibly disappointed with my recent complaint regarding the last X3 being 6 minutes (or whatever it was) early.

On my initial response back, she confirmed that the bus got to East Boldon, Blacks Corner at 17:36, so it was on time.

I thanked her for her reply and for chasing it up for me, but pointed out that the bus wasn't due to depart that stop until 17:39, so by her own admission, it was 3 minutes early. I also asked her to check what time the vehicle got back to the depot and compare it against the driver's running board in my response to her - knowing that the driver would have arrived much earlier than s/he should have (given that it's not scheduled to arrive at the terminus until 17:50, I waited from 17:44 for a photo, and it didn't arrive after I got there).

I received another e-mail today with an apology for the mistake, and she told me that her colleague has informed her that the bus didn't depart Blacks Corner until 17:38:48 - so it was 12 seconds early. So I think someone's telling porkies somewhere along the line, because apparently, the X3 which is scheduled to take 10 minutes to the location I was at for a photograph, only took 5 minutes (i.e. impossible). The fact that nothing was said about the time the driver got back into the depot says it all for me!

The fact that it was it's last day in service, I doubt many passengers, drivers, the depot, GNE customer services and GNE management are particularly bothered about it.

(01 Aug 2014, 1:42 pm)aureolin wrote [ -> ]A criticism I often have is that it should be 100% clear whether your complaint is either being upheld or not. In your case it's certainly not clear Dan, and I know I've not had that clarity until I challenge it a few times.

When GPS data and CCTV data is apparently against you, and you're made to feel like you're complaining for no good reason, it's not a good feeling at all.

I know the bus was over 5 minutes early at Tesco otherwise I would have had a photograph, and it simply did not turn up if that was not the case.

(01 Aug 2014, 2:08 pm)Drifter60 wrote [ -> ]The fact that it was it's last day in service, I doubt many passengers, drivers, the depot, GNE customer services and GNE management are particularly bothered about it.

Shouldn't make a difference.

The driver should be spoken to regardless, as now s/he isn't driving on the X3, s/he will be driving on another route.
Is it any less acceptable for the last run on the Fab56 to be operating 5 minutes early than it is on the X3?

(01 Aug 2014, 12:26 pm)Dan wrote [ -> ]If requested, on the grounds that it could assist determine how early a bus actually was, I'd imagine so?

If, let's say, the bus arrived back into the depot for 17:50 when it was actually due to terminate at Monkwearmouth, it would have clearly been very early... I don't know how much time the driver used to get from Monkwearmouth to Deptford, but if it was around 5 minutes, the driver should have been getting back at 17:55 rather than 17:50 in this example - and this would have been reflected by the fact the driver was operating early whilst in service. This is how it affects customers, and this is when they'd notice.

I think I should have made my second point a bit clearer.

Your earlier post implies that someone might be lying about what time the bus arrived back at the depot. If the bus arrived, say, 5-10 minutes early then someone (at the depot) may notice and question the reason why that particular bus and driver has arrived at the depot so soon. However, if a bus arrived back at the depot, say, 1 or 2 minutes early, it may go largely unnoticed, especially if other buses and drivers are due back at the same time. Therefore, if asked, did the bus arrive back at the depot on time, someone might answer 'yes' simply because they thought the bus arrived back as scheduled. Not an ideal answer but certainly not a lie.

(01 Aug 2014, 2:39 pm)AdamY wrote [ -> ]I think I should have made my second point a bit clearer.

Your earlier post implies that someone might be lying about what time the bus arrived back at the depot. If the bus arrived, say, 5-10 minutes early then someone (at the depot) may notice and question the reason why that particular bus and driver has arrived at the depot so soon. However, if a bus arrived back at the depot, say, 1 or 2 minutes early, it may go largely unnoticed, especially if other buses and drivers are due back at the same time. Therefore, if asked, did the bus arrive back at the depot on time, someone might answer 'yes' simply because they thought the bus arrived back as scheduled. Not an ideal answer but certainly not a lie.

I was told, in the original e-mail from Customer Services, that my complaint was passed onto the depot. It was the depot who provided the Customer Services representative with the information that the bus operated on-time. I know fine well that this is not correct. If it was, I would have had my photo, and I wouldn't have lodged the complaint. I arrived at the stop 5 minutes before the bus was due, so it must have been at least 6 minutes early. That, in my eyes, is the lie. Why the depot would lie to this Customer Services representative, I do not know, but I am 100% certain that it did not operate on time.

It was 6+ minutes early at Monkwearmouth, so this would be replicated at the depot too - assuming the running times back to the depot are realistic (which I'm sure they would be). If the driver had his foot down all the way from East Boldon to Monkwearmouth, he could have perhaps managed to get back 2 minutes quicker than the scheduled timings - and he would have made this time up when passing the Greyhound Stadium at full speed, given that the driver certainly shouldn't be speeding through East Boldon. 6 minutes early is just a complete joke though, and he must have passed a timing point early to do that (despite what Customer Services has told me).

With regards to the whole running board/depot thing... My issue was that the Customer Services representative asked me if she could check any other times for me, and I did (when it actually arrived back in the depot versus the time scheduled to on the running board), and she chose not to answer - and instead suggested that she made a mistake and the bus actually left the East Boldon timing point 12 seconds early.

(01 Aug 2014, 2:50 pm)Dan wrote [ -> ]I was told, in the original e-mail from Customer Services, that my complaint was passed onto the depot. It was the depot who provided the Customer Services representative with the information that the bus operated on-time. I know fine well that this is not correct. If it was, I would have had my photo, and I wouldn't have lodged the complaint. I arrived at the stop 5 minutes before the bus was due, so it must have been at least 6 minutes early. That, in my eyes, is the lie. Why the depot would lie to this Customer Services representative, I do not know, but I am 100% certain that it did not operate on time.

It was 6+ minutes early at Monkwearmouth, so this would be replicated at the depot too - assuming the running times back to the depot are realistic (which I'm sure they would be). If the driver had his foot down all the way from East Boldon to Monkwearmouth, he could have perhaps managed to get back 2 minutes quicker than the scheduled timings - and he would have made this time up when passing the Greyhound Stadium at full speed, given that the driver certainly shouldn't be speeding through East Boldon. 6 minutes early is just a complete joke though, and he must have passed a timing point early to do that (despite what Customer Services has told me).

With regards to the whole running board/depot thing... My issue was that the Customer Services representative asked me if she could check any other times for me, and I did (when it actually arrived back in the depot versus the time scheduled to on the running board), and she chose not to answer - and instead suggested that she made a mistake and the bus actually left the East Boldon timing point 12 seconds early.

Did you remain at the stop for a few minutes after the bus was due or did you just walk off when it didnt come? There is also the possibility that it was severely delayed due to general reasons and not due to any traffic issues. It happens.

(01 Aug 2014, 3:23 pm)Robert wrote [ -> ]Did you remain at the stop for a few minutes after the bus was due or did you just walk off when it didnt come? There is also the possibility that it was severely delayed due to general reasons and not due to any traffic issues. It happens.

Yes I did.

A friend got off at Heworth and the driver left there on time. I've used that run quite a lot and although there is sometimes traffic at Testos, it's never bad, and the bus always gets to Monkwearmouth on time.

(01 Aug 2014, 3:26 pm)Dan wrote [ -> ]Yes I did.

A friend got off at Heworth and the driver left there on time. I've used that run quite a lot and although there is sometimes traffic at Testos, it's never bad, and the bus always gets to Monkwearmouth on time.

Ok, just thought that it would be worth asking. Well then...i dont think much can be done about it now (obviously) but the driver needs to be spoken to about it.

(01 Aug 2014, 3:32 pm)Robert wrote [ -> ]Ok, just thought that it would be worth asking. Well then...i dont think much can be done about it now (obviously) but the driver needs to be spoken to about it.

Well hopefully s/he has been spoken to about it, but clearly the CCTV and GPS data for the bus suggests it has operated on time... Nevermind! Just glad it was only a photo I missed out on (although CS obviously think I intended to travel).

(01 Aug 2014, 3:47 pm)Dan wrote [ -> ]Well hopefully s/he has been spoken to about it, but clearly the CCTV and GPS data for the bus suggests it has operated on time... Nevermind! Just glad it was only a photo I missed out on (although CS obviously think I intended to travel).

Request the driver's view CCTV under the DPA. They're saying the bus was on time, and you're saying you were at the stop (I'm not saying you weren't by the way! ), so you would be on that CCTV footage at the date/time you give and have a right to request it as your data. The beauty is that the footage is timestamped.

(26 Jul 2014, 8:02 am)Dan wrote [ -> ]I agree with this.

One of the reasons I did have a soft spot for Arriva when first starting out as an enthusiast was the fact that their fleet seemed so old compared to other operators' fleets; although both of the other main operators had vehicles just as elderly, I think it was mainly down to the fact that they'd been repainted, making them look slightly younger.

Of the three operators in the North East, I'm inclined to suggest that Arriva will see the most new arrivals this year - though of course, as Arriva typically favour light-weight vehicles, this should be expected. Nevertheless, the continued flow of investment should gain Arriva a few brownie points with us enthusiasts, and hopefully tie them over for a good few years before the fleet starts to show its age again.

The introduction of their real time technology applications came as something somewhat unusual, given that new technology does seem to be the forté of Go North East opposed to Arriva North East - but it being released first does but competitors at an advantage, as they'll be aware of any issues which Arriva may have had with it, and be able to improve their technology whilst still in development.

Arriva are in better shape than what they were between 2010 and 2013 but:

- More attention needs to be payed to reliability. If a bus takes 40 minutes, then say so but don't claim it to take less and if an extra bus is needed even if a Prestige, then get it on!

- Setup two local customer service numbers, one for Northumbria services and one for Durham County.

- For key routes, have dedicated service delivery managers.

- Only use wrongly branded buses as a last resort.

(01 Aug 2014, 4:33 pm)DaveyBowyer wrote [ -> ]Arriva are in better shape than what they were between 2010 and 2013 but:

- More attention needs to be payed to reliability. If a bus takes 40 minutes, then say so but don't claim it to take less and if an extra bus is needed even if a Prestige, then get it on!

- Setup two local customer service numbers, one for Northumbria services and one for Durham County.

- For key routes, have dedicated service delivery managers.

- Only use wrongly branded buses as a last resort.

For your second point, I note they've went with an 03xx number now that 08xx is illegal for customer services lines. Although some buses still reference the 08xx number, which is a bit naughty.

I'd rather they had a customer services department based in the region, but I couldn't see the operational sense in having the two. You'll always need a failover (or DR site), but because it should be rare you need to invoke DR, it'd make more sense routing to another customer services centre in the UK. The reason I think it should be a regional department is because you just get a shrug of the shoulders if you mention a certain stop, town, village, etc. They have no local knowledge whatsoever which is disastrous when you're supporting a local service!

(01 Aug 2014, 2:50 pm)Dan wrote [ -> ]I was told, in the original e-mail from Customer Services, that my complaint was passed onto the depot. It was the depot who provided the Customer Services representative with the information that the bus operated on-time. I know fine well that this is not correct. If it was, I would have had my photo, and I wouldn't have lodged the complaint. I arrived at the stop 5 minutes before the bus was due, so it must have been at least 6 minutes early. That, in my eyes, is the lie. Why the depot would lie to this Customer Services representative I do not know, but I am 100% certain that it did not operate on time.

It was 6+ minutes early at Monkwearmouth, so this would be replicated at the depot too - assuming the running times back to the depot are realistic (which I'm sure they would be). If the driver had his foot down all the way from East Boldon to Monkwearmouth, he could have perhaps managed to get back 2 minutes quicker than the scheduled timings - and he would have made this time up when passing the Greyhound Stadium at full speed, given that the driver certainly shouldn't be speeding through East Boldon. 6 minutes early is just a complete joke though, and he must have passed a timing point early to do that (despite what Customer Services has told me).

With regards to the whole running board/depot thing... My issue was that the Customer Services representative asked me if she could check any other times for me, and I did (when it actually arrived back in the depot versus the time scheduled to on the running board), and she chose not to answer - and instead suggested that she made a mistake and the bus actually left the East Boldon timing point 12 seconds early.

It isn't the first and it won't be the last.

Cust Svcs have to rely on the information they have been given from the depot.
If that information seems accurate, then it is the poor customer who is made to look silly.

Look at how many reports of missing buses are on operators fb pages, for a response to come back from the 'bod' stating the bus is/was running and it has been confirmed by the depot.

The operators hold the records and it is upto the passengers to prove those records are inaccurate.

(01 Aug 2014, 4:44 pm)Andreos Constantopolous wrote [ -> ]It isn't the first and it won't be the last.

Cust Svcs have to rely on the information they have been given from the depot.
If that information seems accurate, then it is the poor customer who is made to look silly.

Look at how many reports of missing buses are on operators fb pages, for a response to come back from the 'bod' stating the bus is/was running and it has been confirmed by the depot.

The operators hold the records and it is upto the passengers to prove those records are inaccurate.

Yup - and this is why I hope the Vix tracking solution, that citaro5284 mention not so long ago, is used to it's full potential. If customer services had screens in their office reporting late runnings, bus positions, congestion, etc. Then there'd be absolutely no need for them to go to speak to anyone as it's all in front of them.

I've worked in a network monitoring centre (NMC) office before, and you've got a similar set up, but obviously to manage network devices, traffic, etc. It's so handy though as we could see any alarms and pretty much resolve the issue before anyone noticed there was one.

Example NMC office design: