(24 Nov 2013, 10:18 pm)aureolin If I lived on the 2A or 2C route in Washington, I'd be pretty annoyed about losing the frequency to provide an express service between Sunderland and Newcastle. Baring in mind that Nexus would have already screwed me over with the absence of the Metro. People in either Newcastle or Sunderland wanting to go to each other can use the Metro. There's no need for them to get a bus that takes twice as long.

(24 Nov 2013, 10:20 pm)CatsFast101 Why would, the X2 need to be limited stop? The X1 isn't after Shiney Row, so the X2 could serve all bus stops down Chester Road.

(24 Nov 2013, 10:23 pm)CatsFast101 Well as someone who lived in Seaham for many years, I was annoyed to lose my hourly link to Washington & Newcastle! Not to mentioned cuts to local services also and reduced a Durham bus service. But unfortunately, bus services aren't run to provide passenger with high frequencies.

(24 Nov 2013, 10:11 pm)Dan Further to the points I raised above...
Which vehicles would operate the service?

As you're reducing the frequency of the X1, you've got free B9s.
As you're reducing the frequency of the 2A/2C, you've got free Citaros.
As you're (presumably) cutting the X3/X36, you've got a mixture of free Northern vehicles which add up to the PVR (including 36/36A).

There's no guarantee that the service would immediately justify B9s/Citaros, but then passengers on the Chester Rd corridor would not have the Citaros they have at present if you gave them shoddy old Northerns...

(24 Nov 2013, 10:18 pm)aureolin If I lived on the 2A or 2C route in Washington, I'd be pretty annoyed about losing the frequency to provide an express service between Sunderland and Newcastle. Baring in mind that Nexus would have already screwed me over with the absence of the Metro. People in either Newcastle or Sunderland wanting to go to each other can use the Metro. There's no need for them to get a bus that takes twice as long.

(24 Nov 2013, 10:20 pm)CatsFast101 Why would, the X2 need to be limited stop? The X1 isn't after Shiney Row, so the X2 could serve all bus stops down Chester Road.

(24 Nov 2013, 10:23 pm)CatsFast101 But unfortunately, bus services aren't run to provide passenger with high frequencies.

(24 Nov 2013, 10:27 pm)Adam Malarkey X2 would use the B9's, Citaros could go on the Laser to free up More Solars to replace older Vehicles and then the Northern Mixture could be used on anything as they are Currently and the 36/36A would operate as a Stand Alone Service with no Interworking with the X36 as it would be Axed as a Result of the Above.

(24 Nov 2013, 10:38 pm)Dan Looking at photographs on Flickr, the service appears to have previously been allocated a mixture of single deckers (pink OmniCitys, unbranded "MetroLINK" Solars, "Red Arrows" Mercs...) but also coaches. There was only one example of a double decker being used, which to me suggests that the service did not justify double decker usage back then. Why do you think it would justify the usage of Go North East's best double decker in the fleet now?

(24 Nov 2013, 10:07 pm)Dan First off - the Sunderland to Hastings Hill corridor:
It's a corridor served by "Silver Arrows" 2A/2C, "Lime" 8/78, providing a healthy 10 buses per hour. This clearly shows that there is demand for this level of service along this corridor. The 'revised' 10 buses per hour would not be at such a level because, as an express service, the X2 would only call 'limited stop'.

Secondly - the frequency reduction on "Silver Arrows" services 2A/2C:
In November 2012 (or was it 2011?), these services were increased in frequency. This increase in frequency helped out massively with the reliability of the service, and also provided passengers living on the route with a higher level of service. From Hastings Hill, all passengers would be at a loss, as the X2 would follow the same route as "Lime" service 8, so would not serve Penshaw or any of the stops beyond there.
If the 15 minute frequency was to be re-instated, then surely the reliability of the services would drop once more, and the customers who have "earned" that frequency will also be dropped?

As you can see in my proposal the X2 would follow the 2A/2C Route along Hastings Hill/Penshaw/Shiney Row and would serve the Stops along that Section of the Route to then Maintain the Frequency so that the 2A/2C Passengers don't lose the current Level of Service. And they'd also get the Benefit of a Direct Xpress to Newcastle also as a Result creating a New Link as no doubt there will be Passengers who use the 2A/2C and then swap onto the X1 at The Galleries to Continue there Journey to Work.


I'm yet to see the point of the X2...
To me, if there are any passengers travelling directly from Sunderland to Newcastle, they would use the X3/X36 as they are at present.
For passengers along the Chester Road corridor, a solid ten minute frequency with connections at The Galleries is of very little inconvenience.
It would benefit those who were hunting a cheaper fare from, let's say, the Royal Hospital to Newcastle. They'd be entitled to a 'return'. That would not be of benefit to Go North East, however.


Would this increase the running times? "Lime" services 8/78 interwork remember, so if the running times were increased, the interworking schedule would go tits up, and Go North East would have to think of a new way of operating both services.

(24 Nov 2013, 10:50 pm)Kuyoyo Story of 'Red Arrows' X2 (to the best of my recall), when the branding started back in 2006, it used ex-National Express coaches branded 'Red Arrows' with the original batch of Citaros (5275-83) ordered, originally expected in early 2007 (ie on 56 plates) alongside the OmniCitys. However, when there appeared to be a delay, the OmniCitys destined for Chester-Le-Street for the 21/22 (5262-74) were diverted to Washington to work the X2 (and X1 when it started) until the Citaros were delivered. I believe it stayed the same (with the addition of the X3) until 2009 when the X1 was increased to every 10 minutes.

(24 Nov 2013, 11:09 pm)stagecoachbusdepot Yes this is spot on - so to use Dan's argument that if a service is upgraded to the "best single decker" in the fleet it must make a fair amount of money - the X2 must have been profitable.

(24 Nov 2013, 11:09 pm)stagecoachbusdepot And re: how unfair it would be to cut the 2A/2C to every 15 mins from every 10, it's a tad worse don't you think that in the real world GNE entirely cut the X2 service affecting anyone who lived on Chester Road corridor, in order that they could increase the frequency of the X1. I'd personally prefer to see a bit of passenger choice (e.g. X1 & X2) with both services running less frequently than one route getting a flagship service, at the expense of another being cut in it's entirety.

(24 Nov 2013, 11:15 pm)Adam Malarkey That Answer is pretty simple and it would be down to the Increased Passenger Loadings Between Washington and Newcastle, As we learnt in 2011/12 the X1 wasn't coping whilst using Citaros due to the High Passenger Demand and again even with 6 Deckers it still struggled, so it got more Deckers. So it would make sense to use the B9's over the Citaros to prevent the same thing from happening again and thus making the Service Unreliable.

(24 Nov 2013, 11:11 pm)Dan There's no denying that the X2 may have been profitable (providing it wasn't a coffin dodger bus!) and this is clearly why the X1 and 2A/2C make a large amount of revenue too. Let's not forget the 8 which is line for a Merc upgrade next year also! That doesn't mean to say that there wasn't room for improvement, however.
The X3 used Citaros for a period of time too - how are we to know whether the X2 wouldn't have had them revoked likewise?

(24 Nov 2013, 11:11 pm)Dan Are you like the average passenger who prefers to 'turn up and go' or do you time your buses so that it fits your routine perfectly?
I believe most will be in favour of the former.

(24 Nov 2013, 11:37 pm)stagecoachbusdepot If GNE managed to turn a service that was profitable enough to warrant investment in the best single deckers in the fleet in 2007/08, to one that performed so badly it needed buses revoking within a couple of years, they would have perhaps been doing something wrong? The withdrawal of the X2 had nothing to do with lack of revenue and was simply down to wanting to increase the X1 frequency, which did nothing for X2 passengers.

(24 Nov 2013, 11:43 pm)Dan The X3 shouldn't be considered as the X2's replacement because it is a completely different service which follows a completely different route.
Go North East have done nothing wrong at all - the Sunderland to Washington section has retained Mercs, while the Washington to Newcastle section has been upgraded even further.

(25 Nov 2013, 12:11 am)stagecoachbusdepot Are you deliberately being obtuse? I at no point referred to the X3 being the X2's replacement. I was responding to your question regarding whether the X2 might have been downgraded from Citaros. I suggest you reread the posts.

As for the withdrawal of the X2 being a positive thing, we'll have to agree to disagree as you've chosen to ignore the point that a direct service was severed, meaning inconvenience, increased journey time and potentially more cost for former X2 passengers. Good for some, bad for most.

(24 Nov 2013, 11:19 pm)Dan So what if the loadings aren't high enough between Washington and Sunderland to justify the use of Go North East's best double decker?
You said earlier that the 2A/2C could afford to be dropped in frequency - are you suggesting that the loadings aren't particularly high on these services? If so, why would you allocate a B9 instead?
Surely it makes more sense just to split the services so that the part which is doing better has the B9, while the part which isn't doing as great (but still very good, to justify a Merc) sticks with the lower capacity bus? Y'know, the current network.

(25 Nov 2013, 4:05 pm)Adam Malarkey So Daniel do you think the 56 justifies use of "Go North East's best double decker" Between Concord and Sunderland where Passenger Numbers are lower on that Section of the Route except for Sunderland Home Games?. And I do think that using a B9 is Justifiable when it'll be picking up Passengers from the X1 Between Newcastle and Washington and again with the 2A/2C/4 and 8 Passengers going from Washington to Sunderland and the fact that when the X1 was split 3 Years Ago it Struggled to cope Capacity wise when using a Mixture of Citaros/B9's, Do you not think you'd would be Downgrading that Section of the Route in which it Struggled by using a Citaro on the Proposed X2.

(25 Nov 2013, 4:11 pm)Dan Yes I do, as I feel the passengers on the 56, even if lower on that section of the route, exceed the demand of a single decker quite often.

It would be, yes. That said, the 2A/2C and 8 cannot justify double decker use as the passenger numbers are just not high enough, however much anyone would like to suggest otherwise (excluding the fact deckers cannot be used due to various low bridges). The X2 never justified double decker use either, but the X1 did.

Best option? Keep the services separate, and let the network be the same as it is now. We've brought the resurrection of the X2 service up so many times now, and it is getting quite tedious I must admit.