Go North East: Latest News & Discussion - November 2019
Go North East: Latest News & Discussion - November 2019
(21 Nov 2019, 8:30 pm)GNE6312 Anyone know when and what route this demo will be on and when it is going to be out and how long will it be out for
https://www.flickr.com/photos/emdjt42/49100410856/
(21 Nov 2019, 8:30 pm)GNE6312 Anyone know when and what route this demo will be on and when it is going to be out and how long will it be out for
https://www.flickr.com/photos/emdjt42/49100410856/
(21 Nov 2019, 8:15 pm)JP6004 Government services operate differently to private.
Private companies try be as efficient as possible, government operations like NHS, HMRC and its call centres are so badly managed and far far inefficient. Throwing money at problems wont make them better; an understanding of how to operate a successful business and operate efficient streamlined services is key. Once you start to move the company in that direction, then you can look at starting to invest and improve
I can see if councils or nexus took over, that the continual improvement and step change in service offerings would suffer. Nexus are already suffering financially with possible cuts to metro services in 2021. Imagine if they held the keys to regions buses!
(21 Nov 2019, 8:16 pm)streetdeckfan Considering these subsidies/grants you mention are considerably less than the operating cost of a bus company, they're paying considerably less through their tax contributions than if it were nationalised.
Now granted if it were nationalised the profits would then go back to the government rather than to the shareholders, reducing the affect those subsidies have overall, but then you have to consider the fact that there would be no more income from any passengers under the age of 25 which would drastically reduce turnover.
If you look at most of the routes that have the high spec buses (21, X21, 309/310, X9/X10), what is one thing they all have in common? Competition
If the bus companies were nationalised, do you honestly believe that they would spend the extra to buy high spec buses because I don't! The reason these routes have high spec buses is to try and 'steal' passengers from competing services, and why would they do that when all services are run by the same 'company'?
(21 Nov 2019, 8:15 pm)JP6004 Government services operate differently to private.
Private companies try be as efficient as possible, government operations like NHS, HMRC and its call centres are so badly managed and far far inefficient. Throwing money at problems wont make them better; an understanding of how to operate a successful business and operate efficient streamlined services is key. Once you start to move the company in that direction, then you can look at starting to invest and improve
I can see if councils or nexus took over, that the continual improvement and step change in service offerings would suffer. Nexus are already suffering financially with possible cuts to metro services in 2021. Imagine if they held the keys to regions buses!
(21 Nov 2019, 8:16 pm)streetdeckfan Considering these subsidies/grants you mention are considerably less than the operating cost of a bus company, they're paying considerably less through their tax contributions than if it were nationalised.
Now granted if it were nationalised the profits would then go back to the government rather than to the shareholders, reducing the affect those subsidies have overall, but then you have to consider the fact that there would be no more income from any passengers under the age of 25 which would drastically reduce turnover.
If you look at most of the routes that have the high spec buses (21, X21, 309/310, X9/X10), what is one thing they all have in common? Competition
If the bus companies were nationalised, do you honestly believe that they would spend the extra to buy high spec buses because I don't! The reason these routes have high spec buses is to try and 'steal' passengers from competing services, and why would they do that when all services are run by the same 'company'?
(21 Nov 2019, 8:36 pm)streetdeckfan https://twitter.com/DanGrahamGNE/status/1197613233932316673Will this be out on Saturday? If not this Saturday will it be out next Saturday?
'Arriving at Go North East today was a @VolvoBusUK @Plaxtoncoach, here for a short stay and to be allocated to the high-profile X9/X10 services operating between Newcastle and Middlesbrough. It's a 53-seat step-free access coach, with a dedicated wheelchair bay.
(21 Nov 2019, 8:36 pm)streetdeckfan https://twitter.com/DanGrahamGNE/status/1197613233932316673Will this be out on Saturday? If not this Saturday will it be out next Saturday?
'Arriving at Go North East today was a @VolvoBusUK @Plaxtoncoach, here for a short stay and to be allocated to the high-profile X9/X10 services operating between Newcastle and Middlesbrough. It's a 53-seat step-free access coach, with a dedicated wheelchair bay.
(21 Nov 2019, 8:47 pm)GNE6312 Will this be out on Saturday? If not this Saturday will it be out next Saturday?Apparently early next week it'll be out
(21 Nov 2019, 8:37 pm)deanmachine X9|X10 apparently, bit of a weird one as the capacity could be a bit of an issue. Wondering if they're just seeing if a tri-axle is do-able on the route (B8L or even a double deck coach?).
(21 Nov 2019, 8:37 pm)deanmachine X9|X10 apparently, bit of a weird one as the capacity could be a bit of an issue. Wondering if they're just seeing if a tri-axle is do-able on the route (B8L or even a double deck coach?).
(21 Nov 2019, 8:39 pm)Andreos1 We've had the current system since 1986. It's private and is flawed in so many ways. I'd argue they are far from efficient.
We've seen companies go to the wall, we've seen buyouts and mergers and we've seen dodgy deals where operating areas are carved up to suit.
Im not sure about the relevance or accuracy of the first paragraph you make.
How is this the case? What methods and data have you used to back up the claims?
As for the competing services. Pity the poor folks who don't have competing services eh? Or have seen bus wars, cuts in service or reductions in the level of service, as theres not enough profit.
Did you ever ride the Express services pre-86? Lovely, comfy rides, with coach seating across a range of vehicles. Uprated engines that improved overall performance appeared too.
All with the aim of enticing punters. Attractive fares too. I think we discussed the variences in inflation and the price equivalent fares would be now, taking in to account inflation. Then compared them to the actual fares we see today.
If the aim is to entice punters on to vehicles and the WiFi, apps and gimmicks actually do help in achieving this, then why would a change to the current system, see the removal of those gimmicks?
(01 Sep 2019, 4:02 pm)streetdeckfan I've just done a bit of quick maths in Excel, taking into account the cost of purchasing the bus and spread it out over 15 years, the cost of the driver at £10 per hour, and the cost of fuel at £1.25 per litre. I 'calculated' the X21, 21 and X66 just to give a rough idea of both long and short routes
Obviously the numbers are VERY rough (and I'm making a lot of assumptions), and they don't include the cost of running depots, maintenance, customer service etc, but it's still quite interesting
For the X21, I came up with cost per passenger of around 95p if we assume that there's an average of 50 passengers per journey
For the 21, I got around 50p if we again assume an average of 50 passengers per journey
For the X66, I got around 10p if we assume an average of 35 passengers per journey
(21 Nov 2019, 8:39 pm)Andreos1 We've had the current system since 1986. It's private and is flawed in so many ways. I'd argue they are far from efficient.
We've seen companies go to the wall, we've seen buyouts and mergers and we've seen dodgy deals where operating areas are carved up to suit.
Im not sure about the relevance or accuracy of the first paragraph you make.
How is this the case? What methods and data have you used to back up the claims?
As for the competing services. Pity the poor folks who don't have competing services eh? Or have seen bus wars, cuts in service or reductions in the level of service, as theres not enough profit.
Did you ever ride the Express services pre-86? Lovely, comfy rides, with coach seating across a range of vehicles. Uprated engines that improved overall performance appeared too.
All with the aim of enticing punters. Attractive fares too. I think we discussed the variences in inflation and the price equivalent fares would be now, taking in to account inflation. Then compared them to the actual fares we see today.
If the aim is to entice punters on to vehicles and the WiFi, apps and gimmicks actually do help in achieving this, then why would a change to the current system, see the removal of those gimmicks?
(01 Sep 2019, 4:02 pm)streetdeckfan I've just done a bit of quick maths in Excel, taking into account the cost of purchasing the bus and spread it out over 15 years, the cost of the driver at £10 per hour, and the cost of fuel at £1.25 per litre. I 'calculated' the X21, 21 and X66 just to give a rough idea of both long and short routes
Obviously the numbers are VERY rough (and I'm making a lot of assumptions), and they don't include the cost of running depots, maintenance, customer service etc, but it's still quite interesting
For the X21, I came up with cost per passenger of around 95p if we assume that there's an average of 50 passengers per journey
For the 21, I got around 50p if we again assume an average of 50 passengers per journey
For the X66, I got around 10p if we assume an average of 35 passengers per journey
(21 Nov 2019, 9:19 pm)streetdeckfan And do you really think it would be any better having them nationalised instead? There's only one thing that does dodgy deals more than private companies, and that's the government!
There's no point in looking back at what nationalised services were pre-86 and thinking it'll be like the 'glory days'. That's not how the real world works! Plus, you have to consider back then it wasn't just the bus companies that were nationalised, it was a lot of the automotive manufacturers as well, which meant that a lot of vehicles were being sold at BOM price, or even at a loss.
And the reason those fares were attractive was because they were subsidised. If you remember back to a quick bit of maths I did...
That was me being very conservative with the costs, and not including a lot of the costs that I couldn't find the figures for so I'd imagine the actual costs would be a lot higher. Now, if a lot of passengers are suddenly getting travel for free, that means the cost per paying passenger go up. If they don't want to do that, the money has to come from somewhere, and that will be higher taxes.
Like I said, I don't want to get too political, but if we assume that Labour have actually costed everything out properly (with people who actually know what numbers are), and can do it with little impact on the 'average' person, then great! But I highly doubt they have.
(21 Nov 2019, 9:19 pm)streetdeckfan And do you really think it would be any better having them nationalised instead? There's only one thing that does dodgy deals more than private companies, and that's the government!
There's no point in looking back at what nationalised services were pre-86 and thinking it'll be like the 'glory days'. That's not how the real world works! Plus, you have to consider back then it wasn't just the bus companies that were nationalised, it was a lot of the automotive manufacturers as well, which meant that a lot of vehicles were being sold at BOM price, or even at a loss.
And the reason those fares were attractive was because they were subsidised. If you remember back to a quick bit of maths I did...
That was me being very conservative with the costs, and not including a lot of the costs that I couldn't find the figures for so I'd imagine the actual costs would be a lot higher. Now, if a lot of passengers are suddenly getting travel for free, that means the cost per paying passenger go up. If they don't want to do that, the money has to come from somewhere, and that will be higher taxes.
Like I said, I don't want to get too political, but if we assume that Labour have actually costed everything out properly (with people who actually know what numbers are), and can do it with little impact on the 'average' person, then great! But I highly doubt they have.
(21 Nov 2019, 9:31 pm)Andreos1 I'm not sure anyone said it would be like the glory days. The reflection was in response to your comments regarding the spec that we see currently (that we as taxpayers are part funding anyway).
I'm sure they have done their sums to cost it out. I'm also pretty sure they will have looked at similar schemes which exist across Europe and carried out a cost benefit analysis of it too.
The current system is broken. Its not working. Passenger numbers are falling. Something needs to be done. Let's do something radical and make travelling by bus attractive and affordable.
Or shall we just continue with the status quo and pump a sh!T load of money at private companies, shareholders and bus lanes?
(21 Nov 2019, 9:31 pm)Andreos1 I'm not sure anyone said it would be like the glory days. The reflection was in response to your comments regarding the spec that we see currently (that we as taxpayers are part funding anyway).
I'm sure they have done their sums to cost it out. I'm also pretty sure they will have looked at similar schemes which exist across Europe and carried out a cost benefit analysis of it too.
The current system is broken. Its not working. Passenger numbers are falling. Something needs to be done. Let's do something radical and make travelling by bus attractive and affordable.
Or shall we just continue with the status quo and pump a sh!T load of money at private companies, shareholders and bus lanes?
Does the X9/X10 interwork as 9077 showed up on Bus Times on the X9 so I went to Peterlee to get a photo but it didn’t turn up so I checked it again and it was now on the X10 (still managed to miss it as it seemed to have been replaced by 5283). Just asking if they do and if they change routes at Newcastle or Middlesbrough.
Sent from my iPhone XS using Tapatalk
(21 Nov 2019, 9:48 pm)streetdeckfan I doubt it. The reason this will have been put in the manifesto is to target the 'youth' (of which I am very much the target), young people these days want everything for nothing, and it's just yet another 'free' thing that they are offering.
I agree that the system is broken, but I don't think nationalising it will help. What we need to do is stop pumping this 'sh!t load of money' into the companies, they are perfectly capable of funding it all themselves, but why would they when we offer them money to do it.
If Arriva was owned by a company that wasn't in it just to suck as much money out of it as they could, services in County Durham would be a hell of a lot better.
I believe that we need more competition in the North East, part of the reason services are so bad is because each company has their own area. I don't know how this could be done without having a system like London where each route is tendered out, but I don't think that's the right solution either.
(21 Nov 2019, 9:48 pm)streetdeckfan I doubt it. The reason this will have been put in the manifesto is to target the 'youth' (of which I am very much the target), young people these days want everything for nothing, and it's just yet another 'free' thing that they are offering.
I agree that the system is broken, but I don't think nationalising it will help. What we need to do is stop pumping this 'sh!t load of money' into the companies, they are perfectly capable of funding it all themselves, but why would they when we offer them money to do it.
If Arriva was owned by a company that wasn't in it just to suck as much money out of it as they could, services in County Durham would be a hell of a lot better.
I believe that we need more competition in the North East, part of the reason services are so bad is because each company has their own area. I don't know how this could be done without having a system like London where each route is tendered out, but I don't think that's the right solution either.
(21 Nov 2019, 9:55 pm)TEN 6083 Does the X9/X10 interwork as 9077 showed up on Bus Times on the X9 so I went to Peterlee to get a photo but it didn’t turn up so I checked it again and it was now on the X10 (still managed to miss it as it seemed to have been replaced by 5283). Just asking if they do and if they change routes at Newcastle or Middlesbrough.
Sent from my iPhone XS using Tapatalk
(21 Nov 2019, 9:55 pm)TEN 6083 Does the X9/X10 interwork as 9077 showed up on Bus Times on the X9 so I went to Peterlee to get a photo but it didn’t turn up so I checked it again and it was now on the X10 (still managed to miss it as it seemed to have been replaced by 5283). Just asking if they do and if they change routes at Newcastle or Middlesbrough.
Sent from my iPhone XS using Tapatalk
OK!- On the Labour Manifesto re. Bus Policy in our region, I believe this mainly affects Stagecoach, as they predominantly took over the PTE services formally known as the Newcastle, Sunderland & S. Shields Corporations. Northern at that time successfully operated services feeding into the PTE/Corporation operations with their own services under the Northern, Gateshead, Sunderland District Omnibus (SDO), Tyneside,etc.. brands. Very few GNE routes would be significantly affected negatively by Labour's Bus policy.
Negative effects of the nationalised National Bus Company came from lack of investment from the Conservative administrations, which mirrored their action on rail, due to a hell bent policy of privatisation which poured profits from public services, often monopolies within their operating areas, into the coffers of private shareholders instead of being reinvested back into the communities in which they serve.
(21 Nov 2019, 10:47 pm)Venturego OK!- On the Labour Manifesto re. Bus Policy in our region, I believe this mainly affects Stagecoach, as they predominantly took over the PTE services formally known as the Newcastle, Sunderland & S. Shields Corporations. Northern at that time successfully operated services feeding into the PTE/Corporation operations with their own services under the Northern, Gateshead, Sunderland District Omnibus (SDO), Tyneside,etc.. brands. Very few GNE routes would be significantly affected negatively by Labour's Bus policy.
Negative effects of the nationalised National Bus Company came from lack of investment from the Conservative administrations, which mirrored their action on rail, due to a hell bent policy of privatisation which poured profits from public services, often monopolies within their operating areas, into the coffers of private shareholders instead of being reinvested back into the communities in which they serve.
(21 Nov 2019, 10:47 pm)Venturego OK!- On the Labour Manifesto re. Bus Policy in our region, I believe this mainly affects Stagecoach, as they predominantly took over the PTE services formally known as the Newcastle, Sunderland & S. Shields Corporations. Northern at that time successfully operated services feeding into the PTE/Corporation operations with their own services under the Northern, Gateshead, Sunderland District Omnibus (SDO), Tyneside,etc.. brands. Very few GNE routes would be significantly affected negatively by Labour's Bus policy.
Negative effects of the nationalised National Bus Company came from lack of investment from the Conservative administrations, which mirrored their action on rail, due to a hell bent policy of privatisation which poured profits from public services, often monopolies within their operating areas, into the coffers of private shareholders instead of being reinvested back into the communities in which they serve.
(21 Nov 2019, 8:37 pm)deanmachine X9|X10 apparently, bit of a weird one as the capacity could be a bit of an issue. Wondering if they're just seeing if a tri-axle is do-able on the route (B8L or even a double deck coach?).I remember the early days of the X9, with the B10M coach, and I found that to be a far more appropriate vehicle for that type of journey than the current vehicles used on the route. The problem with using those vehicles again today would be the capacity issues...
(21 Nov 2019, 8:54 pm)Dan It's only going to be allocated off-peak and not on a Saturday, to avoid overcrowding.... which has already been recognised by the higher-ups. So I, too, imagine that this demonstrator is being used to trial a 3-axle coach on the route, with a view to operating something like the Plaxton Panorama in future, perhaps?
(21 Nov 2019, 9:48 pm)streetdeckfan I don't know how this could be done without having a system like London...What, you mean whereby a Local Authority has control over services in their area?
(21 Nov 2019, 8:37 pm)deanmachine X9|X10 apparently, bit of a weird one as the capacity could be a bit of an issue. Wondering if they're just seeing if a tri-axle is do-able on the route (B8L or even a double deck coach?).I remember the early days of the X9, with the B10M coach, and I found that to be a far more appropriate vehicle for that type of journey than the current vehicles used on the route. The problem with using those vehicles again today would be the capacity issues...
(21 Nov 2019, 8:54 pm)Dan It's only going to be allocated off-peak and not on a Saturday, to avoid overcrowding.... which has already been recognised by the higher-ups. So I, too, imagine that this demonstrator is being used to trial a 3-axle coach on the route, with a view to operating something like the Plaxton Panorama in future, perhaps?
(21 Nov 2019, 9:48 pm)streetdeckfan I don't know how this could be done without having a system like London...What, you mean whereby a Local Authority has control over services in their area?
Everyone always mentions pricing and buses for the reason for the reduction in bus use but is it just me who thinks the bus network is just outdated completely.
Most routes have barely changed since the 80's however where people actually want to be have massively and unless you drive some of them are just impossible to get to. Some examples:
Metro Centre - Bar the 6/7 there's absolutely no service from the whole of the West End of Newcastle unless you travel the wrong direction and back on yourself.
Silverlink - No service at all bar the 19/22. 306/308 too far and the A19 roundabout isn't a walk you want to do.
Team Valley - No service bar the Loop
Arnison Centre - No service to the North or West.
Durham Dragonville - No service to North, East or South.
Teeside Park - One bus every 30 minutes, miles from the shops.
Cleveland Retail / Tesco Eston - One bus every 30 minutes.
Yet places like North Shields, Durham City Centre, South Shields, Stockton etc have loads of buses going into them from all over where sadly people don't really want to be nowadays as there's nothing left anymore. It's no wonder bus usage is decreasing.
(21 Nov 2019, 8:39 pm)Andreos1 We've had the current system since 1986. It's private and is flawed in so many ways. I'd argue they are far from efficient.
We've seen companies go to the wall, we've seen buyouts and mergers and we've seen dodgy deals where operating areas are carved up to suit.
Im not sure about the relevance or accuracy of the first paragraph you make.
How is this the case? What methods and data have you used to back up the claims?
As for the competing services. Pity the poor folks who don't have competing services eh? Or have seen bus wars, cuts in service or reductions in the level of service, as theres not enough profit.
Did you ever ride the Express services pre-86? Lovely, comfy rides, with coach seating across a range of vehicles. Uprated engines that improved overall performance appeared too.
All with the aim of enticing punters. Attractive fares too. I think we discussed the variences in inflation and the price equivalent fares would be now, taking in to account inflation. Then compared them to the actual fares we see today.
If the aim is to entice punters on to vehicles and the WiFi, apps and gimmicks actually do help in achieving this, then why would a change to the current system, see the removal of those gimmicks?
I'd love a pair of the rose tinted glasses that everyone looks back through into the pre-deregulation era!
The deregulated era, at 33 years and a month old, has actually lasted longer than the PTE and NBC era (only almost 18 years).
Passenger numbers have been falling since the early 1950s, the PTEs and NBC actually having little, if any, impact on slowing down the decline.
As one who spent 9 years working for a PTE (Greater Manchester 1977-1986) I can say that passenger numbers were falling at a faster rate than they do today, service were continually being reduced even the economies from one-man operation couldn't get the books to balance.
Whilst the deregulated model isn't perfect, and the early years of deregulation were dreadful for passengers, many of todays bus companies are doing a good job in attracting new passengers and retaining current ones given the challenges of the current day.
You've got to remember that pre-1986 there was no Metrocentre, so people shopped locally (for which the bus is an attractive option), many people worked locally (in large factories, coal mines etc), again movements for which the bus is an attractive option; there was no Sunday shopping, or much late night opening; children generally went to their local school, they didn't travel half way across Tyne & Wear to go to school; there weren't difficult to serve out of town shopping centres or business parks (which attract people from a wide geographic area, difficult to transport by bus)
Those who are interested and "pro" re-regulation should read the 600 plus page document that TfGM currently have out to consultation - https://greatermanchester-ca.gov.uk/what-we-do/transport/doing-buses-differently-consultation-on-proposed-franchising-scheme/
their franchised network has no enhanced vehicle standards, no network (service) improvements and is planned to continue losing passengers!! Oh, and above inflation fare increases every year (+1.4%). Nothing to solve congestion or restrict car use either.
(21 Nov 2019, 8:39 pm)Andreos1 We've had the current system since 1986. It's private and is flawed in so many ways. I'd argue they are far from efficient.
We've seen companies go to the wall, we've seen buyouts and mergers and we've seen dodgy deals where operating areas are carved up to suit.
Im not sure about the relevance or accuracy of the first paragraph you make.
How is this the case? What methods and data have you used to back up the claims?
As for the competing services. Pity the poor folks who don't have competing services eh? Or have seen bus wars, cuts in service or reductions in the level of service, as theres not enough profit.
Did you ever ride the Express services pre-86? Lovely, comfy rides, with coach seating across a range of vehicles. Uprated engines that improved overall performance appeared too.
All with the aim of enticing punters. Attractive fares too. I think we discussed the variences in inflation and the price equivalent fares would be now, taking in to account inflation. Then compared them to the actual fares we see today.
If the aim is to entice punters on to vehicles and the WiFi, apps and gimmicks actually do help in achieving this, then why would a change to the current system, see the removal of those gimmicks?
I'd love a pair of the rose tinted glasses that everyone looks back through into the pre-deregulation era!
The deregulated era, at 33 years and a month old, has actually lasted longer than the PTE and NBC era (only almost 18 years).
Passenger numbers have been falling since the early 1950s, the PTEs and NBC actually having little, if any, impact on slowing down the decline.
As one who spent 9 years working for a PTE (Greater Manchester 1977-1986) I can say that passenger numbers were falling at a faster rate than they do today, service were continually being reduced even the economies from one-man operation couldn't get the books to balance.
Whilst the deregulated model isn't perfect, and the early years of deregulation were dreadful for passengers, many of todays bus companies are doing a good job in attracting new passengers and retaining current ones given the challenges of the current day.
You've got to remember that pre-1986 there was no Metrocentre, so people shopped locally (for which the bus is an attractive option), many people worked locally (in large factories, coal mines etc), again movements for which the bus is an attractive option; there was no Sunday shopping, or much late night opening; children generally went to their local school, they didn't travel half way across Tyne & Wear to go to school; there weren't difficult to serve out of town shopping centres or business parks (which attract people from a wide geographic area, difficult to transport by bus)
Those who are interested and "pro" re-regulation should read the 600 plus page document that TfGM currently have out to consultation - https://greatermanchester-ca.gov.uk/what-we-do/transport/doing-buses-differently-consultation-on-proposed-franchising-scheme/
their franchised network has no enhanced vehicle standards, no network (service) improvements and is planned to continue losing passengers!! Oh, and above inflation fare increases every year (+1.4%). Nothing to solve congestion or restrict car use either.
(21 Nov 2019, 11:39 pm)Storx Everyone always mentions pricing and buses for the reason for the reduction in bus use but is it just me who thinks the bus network is just outdated completely.
Most routes have barely changed since the 80's however where people actually want to be have massively and unless you drive some of them are just impossible to get to. Some examples:
Metro Centre - Bar the 6/7 there's absolutely no service from the whole of the West End of Newcastle unless you travel the wrong direction and back on yourself.
Silverlink - No service at all bar the 19/22. 306/308 too far and the A19 roundabout isn't a walk you want to do.
Team Valley - No service bar the Loop
Arnison Centre - No service to the North or West.
Durham Dragonville - No service to North, East or South.
Teeside Park - One bus every 30 minutes, miles from the shops.
Cleveland Retail / Tesco Eston - One bus every 30 minutes.
Yet places like North Shields, Durham City Centre, South Shields, Stockton etc have loads of buses going into them from all over where sadly people don't really want to be nowadays as there's nothing left anymore. It's no wonder bus usage is decreasing.
(21 Nov 2019, 11:39 pm)Storx Everyone always mentions pricing and buses for the reason for the reduction in bus use but is it just me who thinks the bus network is just outdated completely.
Most routes have barely changed since the 80's however where people actually want to be have massively and unless you drive some of them are just impossible to get to. Some examples:
Metro Centre - Bar the 6/7 there's absolutely no service from the whole of the West End of Newcastle unless you travel the wrong direction and back on yourself.
Silverlink - No service at all bar the 19/22. 306/308 too far and the A19 roundabout isn't a walk you want to do.
Team Valley - No service bar the Loop
Arnison Centre - No service to the North or West.
Durham Dragonville - No service to North, East or South.
Teeside Park - One bus every 30 minutes, miles from the shops.
Cleveland Retail / Tesco Eston - One bus every 30 minutes.
Yet places like North Shields, Durham City Centre, South Shields, Stockton etc have loads of buses going into them from all over where sadly people don't really want to be nowadays as there's nothing left anymore. It's no wonder bus usage is decreasing.
(22 Nov 2019, 12:29 am)streetdeckfan I think the trouble is it's hard to have a direct route between all places, hub and spoke is far more efficient than point to point. You can get to most places in the North East with only one change, and to just about anywhere else with 2 changes. I think that's more than adequate!
But the problem with that is like I said further up, Stagecoach, GNE and Arriva all have their areas, and until there is a ticket that you can use in all areas (I know that exists within T&W, but a there's no cross-border tickets) it'll always be more expensive than taking the car.
I also think it's a bit disingenuous to say there are no services for Arnison centre and Dragonville since it's fairly easy to just change buses. Assuming you want to stay within the GNE network:
Arnison Centre - From the north you can catch the 50 from CLS, from everywhere else you can catch the 14 from Durham
Dragonville - You can just change at Durham to the 204/208. If you're coming from South Shields/Sunderland, it's a fairly short walk from Durham City Retail Park, or if you're particularly lazy (like me), you can time the journey right and change to the 208 and go 2 stops.
I think one step towards making the bus network more appealing is to offer actual express services. I don't care how much GNE think it is, the X21 is not an express service. It takes 4 times longer to travel between Bishop Auckland and Newcastle as it does to take the car, and for most people that makes it unusable.
I would gladly lose the direct link to Newcastle from Tindale if GNE would offer an actual express service between Bishop Auckland and Newcastle, calling only at Spennymoor, Durham, Chester le Street, Gateshead and Newcastle. Even if it was only an hourly service, it would probably still cut the journey time enough to make it usable.
I see no reason for the X21 to go via Framwellgate Moor, that area is served more than enough by the 21, it should go express between CLS and Durham, either via the A1 or A167 depending on traffic.
I would have loved to see the new X-lines network be a network of express routes, but the way I see it is they're just rebranding routes to make them seem faster without changing anything meaningful (X45/46/47)
(22 Nov 2019, 12:29 am)streetdeckfan I think the trouble is it's hard to have a direct route between all places, hub and spoke is far more efficient than point to point. You can get to most places in the North East with only one change, and to just about anywhere else with 2 changes. I think that's more than adequate!
But the problem with that is like I said further up, Stagecoach, GNE and Arriva all have their areas, and until there is a ticket that you can use in all areas (I know that exists within T&W, but a there's no cross-border tickets) it'll always be more expensive than taking the car.
I also think it's a bit disingenuous to say there are no services for Arnison centre and Dragonville since it's fairly easy to just change buses. Assuming you want to stay within the GNE network:
Arnison Centre - From the north you can catch the 50 from CLS, from everywhere else you can catch the 14 from Durham
Dragonville - You can just change at Durham to the 204/208. If you're coming from South Shields/Sunderland, it's a fairly short walk from Durham City Retail Park, or if you're particularly lazy (like me), you can time the journey right and change to the 208 and go 2 stops.
I think one step towards making the bus network more appealing is to offer actual express services. I don't care how much GNE think it is, the X21 is not an express service. It takes 4 times longer to travel between Bishop Auckland and Newcastle as it does to take the car, and for most people that makes it unusable.
I would gladly lose the direct link to Newcastle from Tindale if GNE would offer an actual express service between Bishop Auckland and Newcastle, calling only at Spennymoor, Durham, Chester le Street, Gateshead and Newcastle. Even if it was only an hourly service, it would probably still cut the journey time enough to make it usable.
I see no reason for the X21 to go via Framwellgate Moor, that area is served more than enough by the 21, it should go express between CLS and Durham, either via the A1 or A167 depending on traffic.
I would have loved to see the new X-lines network be a network of express routes, but the way I see it is they're just rebranding routes to make them seem faster without changing anything meaningful (X45/46/47)
The X30 is more frequent now but it takes much longer than it used to in the past, the X30 used to be a genuine express serving only Stanley, Sunniside, Lobley Hill, Gateshead and Newcastle and took 30 minutes, not it takes at least 40. Accepting of course there is more traffic now so it gets stuck more often, but observing all stops and going via Whickham makes it anything but express. It's still very convenient and easy if you are just going to Newcastle, but the extra time becomes a pain if you then need to get another bus, rush hour journeys often take 50+ minutes in my experience, albeit as an infrequent user.
