Bus Services Bill
Bus Services Bill
(26 Oct 2018, 8:43 pm)Tamesider I think you slightly misunderstood; I said it was the only route run by either of the two city depots (Hyde Road or Sharston) that has single-deckers specifically allocated. HE is a 100% 'decker. Yes, if only due to congestion issues (and poor service levels on weekend mornings), most services need to be 'decker operated. The one "city" exception is the 38 (Little Hulton-Piccadilly) which would easily get away with 14 seater Mercedes 516s from what I've seen (and heard). Many Stockport and Ashton services are run with single-deckers although again, this can cause problems - albeit less so than in the past as so many people in the districts have deserted buses due to the high fares, declining service levels and more unpredictable delays (compared to inner city roads).
(26 Oct 2018, 8:43 pm)Tamesider I think you slightly misunderstood; I said it was the only route run by either of the two city depots (Hyde Road or Sharston) that has single-deckers specifically allocated. HE is a 100% 'decker. Yes, if only due to congestion issues (and poor service levels on weekend mornings), most services need to be 'decker operated. The one "city" exception is the 38 (Little Hulton-Piccadilly) which would easily get away with 14 seater Mercedes 516s from what I've seen (and heard). Many Stockport and Ashton services are run with single-deckers although again, this can cause problems - albeit less so than in the past as so many people in the districts have deserted buses due to the high fares, declining service levels and more unpredictable delays (compared to inner city roads).
(28 Oct 2018, 9:06 pm)James101 I understood. I wasn't picking examples at random, I lived in Dukinfield for a little bit so had an insight into the area's network. I thought the 168 was a good example of an A-B-C-D route as I don't believe anybody would spend 90 minutes going from Ashton to Chorlton, particularly given this obscure link could easily be made more quickly going via the city centre.
I had a quick look through the current timetables for the areas I used to live in in GM. Generally most routes had a first service around 07:00 at weekends, much earlier during the week. I'm open to correction, but haven't the Ashton and Stockport locals historically been operated by smaller & single deck buses? Currently E200s; previously B10Ms, Solos, Darts, Nationals and even Mercedes 709Ds all the way back to GM Buses? Regarding fares, I'd point out a Stoke-on-Trent multi operator weekly bus ticket comes in at £19.50 (covering a relatively tiny area), the equivalent in West Yorkshire is £23 and in the West Midlands £31.50(!!). A TFGM bus only system one is just £18. TFGM also provides free town centre circulars in Stockport & Bolton, as well a the revamped 'Free Bus' in the city centre - which I think has been marketed bang on the money as it happens. This is all alongside the Metrolink expansions, which though clearly have impacted corresponding bus corridors, overall wherever Metrolink had been introduced there are now more public transport seats per hour.
My point is here, though I feel we've moved away from ENCTS, is that PTE areas are generally fairing much better than non PTE area - and I would add that GM is doing particularly fine. Yes, there have been cuts, but only the most minor when compared to similar areas in terms of car ownership and incomes. Relating this back to the Bus Services Bill, I believe this point illustrates the importance of only introducing re-regulation/QCS under the supervision of at PTE - as asking an individual Tory* council to look after your bus services is rather like asking Bernard Mathews to look look after your turkey.
* - I use Tory as an example as they hold control in Stoke, where I currently live. I've previously lived in Hartlepool, forever controlled by Labour, who were proved even more incompetent as being among the first two councils to remove 100% of bus support way back in 2010. I think the individual leaders of the councils is more relevant than their party alliance when it comes to such matters.
(28 Oct 2018, 9:06 pm)James101 I understood. I wasn't picking examples at random, I lived in Dukinfield for a little bit so had an insight into the area's network. I thought the 168 was a good example of an A-B-C-D route as I don't believe anybody would spend 90 minutes going from Ashton to Chorlton, particularly given this obscure link could easily be made more quickly going via the city centre.
I had a quick look through the current timetables for the areas I used to live in in GM. Generally most routes had a first service around 07:00 at weekends, much earlier during the week. I'm open to correction, but haven't the Ashton and Stockport locals historically been operated by smaller & single deck buses? Currently E200s; previously B10Ms, Solos, Darts, Nationals and even Mercedes 709Ds all the way back to GM Buses? Regarding fares, I'd point out a Stoke-on-Trent multi operator weekly bus ticket comes in at £19.50 (covering a relatively tiny area), the equivalent in West Yorkshire is £23 and in the West Midlands £31.50(!!). A TFGM bus only system one is just £18. TFGM also provides free town centre circulars in Stockport & Bolton, as well a the revamped 'Free Bus' in the city centre - which I think has been marketed bang on the money as it happens. This is all alongside the Metrolink expansions, which though clearly have impacted corresponding bus corridors, overall wherever Metrolink had been introduced there are now more public transport seats per hour.
My point is here, though I feel we've moved away from ENCTS, is that PTE areas are generally fairing much better than non PTE area - and I would add that GM is doing particularly fine. Yes, there have been cuts, but only the most minor when compared to similar areas in terms of car ownership and incomes. Relating this back to the Bus Services Bill, I believe this point illustrates the importance of only introducing re-regulation/QCS under the supervision of at PTE - as asking an individual Tory* council to look after your bus services is rather like asking Bernard Mathews to look look after your turkey.
* - I use Tory as an example as they hold control in Stoke, where I currently live. I've previously lived in Hartlepool, forever controlled by Labour, who were proved even more incompetent as being among the first two councils to remove 100% of bus support way back in 2010. I think the individual leaders of the councils is more relevant than their party alliance when it comes to such matters.
(28 Oct 2018, 10:04 pm)Tamesider I'm surprised at West Midlands charging so much, given that TWM is the dominant operator and I recently researched a possible trip incorporation Wolverhampton, Walsall, West Brom and into B'ham, suggesting a Day ticket would only be about £4.50. metrolink is (at least) a double-edged sword. Being pedantic I would disagree with it meaning more public transport seats per hour, as trams have awful bum perches, not seats. Also, walking time/distance to tram stops is considerably longer than to bus stops and then there is the cost to the tax-payer (Metrolink debt repayments are TFGM's biggest current expenditure). Returning to fares, the main problem is that Day/week tickets in GM are effectively a flat fare. You pay £4.50 if you travel 20, 30 or 40 miles on Stagecoach services, but you still pay £4.50 if you just need to travel 1.5 miles down the road to the Supermarket, Health Centre or minimum wage part-time job. Further, and this is the real proof of the failure of the "free" (haha) market, is that if you live in a low income, low profile suburb or "overspill" estate, you pay £4.50 for these 3 mile round trips, but if you live in a politically correct, middle income area with planned investment (public and private) you pay £3 for a round trip of up to 12 miles into the city centre - and services have been reduced in the low income areas to resource "bus wars" in the trendy areas, which also means your £4.50 may or may not include a seat (probably not in the evening peak), but the £3 in the latter case buys you half a deck to choose from.
The revamped "Free bus" is effectively a disguised cut in service, with reduced links for those arriving on the periphery of the city by bus. Don't forget rail users get free Metrolink travel anyway. The Stockport MetroShuttle is reasonably successful, but would be more of an "integrated" service if it ran in reverse ie. a quick journey up the hill for rail connections, but I think the road layout in Stockport mitigates against this. The Bolton MetroShuttle is less successful, and I think moving the bus station out of the town centre could eventually be its downfall, as the Indoor Market is on its last legs.
Ashton & Stockport locals have been single deckers for most of the time since 1986 (and before in the case of Stockport). However, before de-reg, most services in Tameside were 'deckers, and had to be at peak times! Bus use in Ashton itself has declined sharply since the depot was closed in 1991, though the real money spinners (330, 347 & 409) still stumble on. The rot in Stockport is much more recent, led by service cuts and amalgamations. Reddish Road especially has been virtually halved since 2008 (and more especially 2015).
(28 Oct 2018, 10:04 pm)Tamesider I'm surprised at West Midlands charging so much, given that TWM is the dominant operator and I recently researched a possible trip incorporation Wolverhampton, Walsall, West Brom and into B'ham, suggesting a Day ticket would only be about £4.50. metrolink is (at least) a double-edged sword. Being pedantic I would disagree with it meaning more public transport seats per hour, as trams have awful bum perches, not seats. Also, walking time/distance to tram stops is considerably longer than to bus stops and then there is the cost to the tax-payer (Metrolink debt repayments are TFGM's biggest current expenditure). Returning to fares, the main problem is that Day/week tickets in GM are effectively a flat fare. You pay £4.50 if you travel 20, 30 or 40 miles on Stagecoach services, but you still pay £4.50 if you just need to travel 1.5 miles down the road to the Supermarket, Health Centre or minimum wage part-time job. Further, and this is the real proof of the failure of the "free" (haha) market, is that if you live in a low income, low profile suburb or "overspill" estate, you pay £4.50 for these 3 mile round trips, but if you live in a politically correct, middle income area with planned investment (public and private) you pay £3 for a round trip of up to 12 miles into the city centre - and services have been reduced in the low income areas to resource "bus wars" in the trendy areas, which also means your £4.50 may or may not include a seat (probably not in the evening peak), but the £3 in the latter case buys you half a deck to choose from.
The revamped "Free bus" is effectively a disguised cut in service, with reduced links for those arriving on the periphery of the city by bus. Don't forget rail users get free Metrolink travel anyway. The Stockport MetroShuttle is reasonably successful, but would be more of an "integrated" service if it ran in reverse ie. a quick journey up the hill for rail connections, but I think the road layout in Stockport mitigates against this. The Bolton MetroShuttle is less successful, and I think moving the bus station out of the town centre could eventually be its downfall, as the Indoor Market is on its last legs.
Ashton & Stockport locals have been single deckers for most of the time since 1986 (and before in the case of Stockport). However, before de-reg, most services in Tameside were 'deckers, and had to be at peak times! Bus use in Ashton itself has declined sharply since the depot was closed in 1991, though the real money spinners (330, 347 & 409) still stumble on. The rot in Stockport is much more recent, led by service cuts and amalgamations. Reddish Road especially has been virtually halved since 2008 (and more especially 2015).
(31 Oct 2018, 12:18 am)James101 I'm not convinced Metrolink is a double edge sword in that its costs are roughly equal to its benefits. Financially first, Greater Manchester's council tax averages sit very much in the median of the national tally (Telegraph, 2018) - unless you're referring to something else, I don't see an discernible Metrolink levy imposed on GM residents. What I would assert is GM (and all PTE areas), benefit compared to non PTE areas from cross boundary infrastructure projects and standardised timetable formatting, infrastructure branding, etc. On all the expansions since 'Big Bang', the corresponding bus corridor may have taken a hit, but still maintains a service level of at least every 10 minutes. This provides mode options for those unwilling or unable to walk to the Metrolink stop, potentially further away. There is plenty of evidence (academic papers, readily available online), that passengers are willing to walk almost double the distance to a rail/tram stop over a bus stop.
What you're accurately describing around the effective flat-fare concept and captive markets is the bus market more generally, not a uniquely GM situation, the only potential difference in GM being a £4.50 day ticket will take significantly further than a First Potteries £4.50 day ticket or even a £5.50 Stagecoach Teesside day ticket. What I would pick up on is I'm really not sure of the assertion 'politically correct, middle income areas' are getting cheaper fares for longer journeys? Chorlton is about the same distance from the City as Levenshulme and Reddish about equidistant to the City as Sale. All have about the same service level and cost the same to get to on a Stagecoach bus.
Are the cuts along Reddish road referring to the 7, 329 etc? Yes, there have been cuts here, but even these services still have a 30 minute headway and Reddish still has far reaching links around GM (I give you the 278; making what could be a 5 mile journey last 2.5 hours). What in the grand scheme of things is an inconvenience to bus passengers in GM by way of reduced headways, amalgamated routes or imposed interchange mid journey - in non PTE areas vast geographical areas are having all service provision withdrawn.
Just as aside on Free Bus - I understand the revamp is a PVR cut of 7 vehicle but I believe it's the best possible thing that could have been offered in light of the passenger numbers falling off a cliff since 2CC. My only though on the whole thing would perhaps be where routes 1 & 2 effectively form an inner & outer loop, perhaps a single 'figure of 8' running in both directions could have provided 2 way links between main stations.
(31 Oct 2018, 12:18 am)James101 I'm not convinced Metrolink is a double edge sword in that its costs are roughly equal to its benefits. Financially first, Greater Manchester's council tax averages sit very much in the median of the national tally (Telegraph, 2018) - unless you're referring to something else, I don't see an discernible Metrolink levy imposed on GM residents. What I would assert is GM (and all PTE areas), benefit compared to non PTE areas from cross boundary infrastructure projects and standardised timetable formatting, infrastructure branding, etc. On all the expansions since 'Big Bang', the corresponding bus corridor may have taken a hit, but still maintains a service level of at least every 10 minutes. This provides mode options for those unwilling or unable to walk to the Metrolink stop, potentially further away. There is plenty of evidence (academic papers, readily available online), that passengers are willing to walk almost double the distance to a rail/tram stop over a bus stop.
What you're accurately describing around the effective flat-fare concept and captive markets is the bus market more generally, not a uniquely GM situation, the only potential difference in GM being a £4.50 day ticket will take significantly further than a First Potteries £4.50 day ticket or even a £5.50 Stagecoach Teesside day ticket. What I would pick up on is I'm really not sure of the assertion 'politically correct, middle income areas' are getting cheaper fares for longer journeys? Chorlton is about the same distance from the City as Levenshulme and Reddish about equidistant to the City as Sale. All have about the same service level and cost the same to get to on a Stagecoach bus.
Are the cuts along Reddish road referring to the 7, 329 etc? Yes, there have been cuts here, but even these services still have a 30 minute headway and Reddish still has far reaching links around GM (I give you the 278; making what could be a 5 mile journey last 2.5 hours). What in the grand scheme of things is an inconvenience to bus passengers in GM by way of reduced headways, amalgamated routes or imposed interchange mid journey - in non PTE areas vast geographical areas are having all service provision withdrawn.
Just as aside on Free Bus - I understand the revamp is a PVR cut of 7 vehicle but I believe it's the best possible thing that could have been offered in light of the passenger numbers falling off a cliff since 2CC. My only though on the whole thing would perhaps be where routes 1 & 2 effectively form an inner & outer loop, perhaps a single 'figure of 8' running in both directions could have provided 2 way links between main stations.
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/sy...-2019.xlsm
If anyone wants to have a play about, ENCTS calculator.
Check out @BetterBusesGM’s Tweet: https://twitter.com/BetterBusesGM/status...50849?s=09
Pressure is mounting.
Using the bus for an evening on the tiles for 4 of us. Just under £4 each.
Taxi comes to just over £3 each.
Just days after we see the patter about bus priority measures and all that jazz...
There's an extra car journey tonight because it is cheaper (and quicker) than the bus.
(16 Nov 2018, 4:05 pm)Andreos1 Using the bus for an evening on the tiles for 4 of us. Just under £4 each.
Taxi comes to just over £3 each.
Just days after we see the patter about bus priority measures and all that jazz...
There's an extra car journey tonight because it is cheaper (and quicker) than the bus.
(16 Nov 2018, 4:05 pm)Andreos1 Using the bus for an evening on the tiles for 4 of us. Just under £4 each.
Taxi comes to just over £3 each.
Just days after we see the patter about bus priority measures and all that jazz...
There's an extra car journey tonight because it is cheaper (and quicker) than the bus.
(16 Nov 2018, 4:24 pm)Rob44 Me and the lads I drink with when 3 or more have always done this. Sometimes a quid more but picked up at door and dropped off at pub - and in reverse can stay at the pub well after last bus has left!
(16 Nov 2018, 4:24 pm)Rob44 Me and the lads I drink with when 3 or more have always done this. Sometimes a quid more but picked up at door and dropped off at pub - and in reverse can stay at the pub well after last bus has left!
(16 Nov 2018, 4:05 pm)Andreos1 Using the bus for an evening on the tiles for 4 of us. Just under £4 each.
Taxi comes to just over £3 each.
Just days after we see the patter about bus priority measures and all that jazz...
There's an extra car journey tonight because it is cheaper (and quicker) than the bus.
(16 Nov 2018, 4:05 pm)Andreos1 Using the bus for an evening on the tiles for 4 of us. Just under £4 each.
Taxi comes to just over £3 each.
Just days after we see the patter about bus priority measures and all that jazz...
There's an extra car journey tonight because it is cheaper (and quicker) than the bus.
(16 Nov 2018, 8:29 pm)Tamesider And that's before uber/gett/wambamm really take on the bus industry head on. Flat fare for anything more than 3 miles round trip on Stagecoach Manchester is £4.50 (DaySaver) although they do have a £2 single offer on after 1900. Still £4 each though, and as many services don't "need" the extra patronage, it probably means you don't get a seat for your £2.
(16 Nov 2018, 8:29 pm)Tamesider And that's before uber/gett/wambamm really take on the bus industry head on. Flat fare for anything more than 3 miles round trip on Stagecoach Manchester is £4.50 (DaySaver) although they do have a £2 single offer on after 1900. Still £4 each though, and as many services don't "need" the extra patronage, it probably means you don't get a seat for your £2.
Not sure where this should go (I posted initially on this month's GNE thread)
This was interesting Commons committee on "The Health of The Bus Industry:
Should be available to view for a few days:
https://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Inde...611fb5aecd
Particularly from 17:39 and 18:33 etc...
Witnesses: Martin Dean, Managing Director, Bus Development, Go-Ahead Group plc, Bill Hiron, Chair, and Malcolm Robson, ALBUM, Alex Hornby, CEO, Trandsdev Blazefield, and Steven Salmon, Director of Policy Development, Confederation of Passenger Transport (UK)
(26 Nov 2018, 8:02 pm)Venturego Not sure where this should go (I posted initially on this month's GNE thread)
This was interesting Commons committee on "The Health of The Bus Industry:
Should be available to view for a few days:
https://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Inde...611fb5aecd
Particularly from 17:39 and 18:33 etc...
Witnesses: Martin Dean, Managing Director, Bus Development, Go-Ahead Group plc, Bill Hiron, Chair, and Malcolm Robson, ALBUM, Alex Hornby, CEO, Trandsdev Blazefield, and Steven Salmon, Director of Policy Development, Confederation of Passenger Transport (UK)
(26 Nov 2018, 8:02 pm)Venturego Not sure where this should go (I posted initially on this month's GNE thread)
This was interesting Commons committee on "The Health of The Bus Industry:
Should be available to view for a few days:
https://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Inde...611fb5aecd
Particularly from 17:39 and 18:33 etc...
Witnesses: Martin Dean, Managing Director, Bus Development, Go-Ahead Group plc, Bill Hiron, Chair, and Malcolm Robson, ALBUM, Alex Hornby, CEO, Trandsdev Blazefield, and Steven Salmon, Director of Policy Development, Confederation of Passenger Transport (UK)
With Bus Reform in GM stalled (at least at political level) due mainly to Brexit, CleanAir and Rail chaos (oh! the irony!) all taking precedent, does anyone know the timetable of events for the GBF bids, including Stagecoach's bid to put 105 e-buses into the most politically influential parts of GM (Salford, Trafford and south Manchester)?
Incidentally, Stagecoach Manchester Day/Week fares increase by 6.7% from 2nd January. Single fares are unchanged at the moment but based on the usual formula, I would imagine the company will have made projections based on 10% a increase, with a decision to go ahead based on the aforementioned Bus Reform inertia.
No idea which thread is most appropriate.
This one perhaps?
https://uk.advfn.com/stock-market/london...u/79501258
An interesting move. More to come?
(28 Apr 2019, 7:55 pm)Andreos1 No idea which thread is most appropriate.
This one perhaps?
https://uk.advfn.com/stock-market/london...u/79501258
An interesting move. More to come?
(28 Apr 2019, 7:55 pm)Andreos1 No idea which thread is most appropriate.
This one perhaps?
https://uk.advfn.com/stock-market/london...u/79501258
An interesting move. More to come?
(28 Apr 2019, 8:32 pm)Adrian I think they've ran this scheme for a number of years, haven't they? Certainly quite common in the private sector.
(28 Apr 2019, 8:32 pm)Adrian I think they've ran this scheme for a number of years, haven't they? Certainly quite common in the private sector.
