Go North East: Latest News & Discussion - January 2018
(28/01/2018, 20:32)idiot Wrote: Should drivers be operating a ticket machine (essentially a big mobile phone) when driving!?

You can operate your phone whilst driving, you just need a cradle. The ticket machines are fixed objects. As long as the driving is safe, there is no legal issues, and there certainly shouldn't be any moral ones in that scenario.
(28/01/2018, 19:54)Andreos1 Wrote: I've managed to catch glimpse of more of the new style destinations, since it was rolled out to more depots and I have yet to be convinced it is better than the style it replaces.

Two that jump out (I've seen them fairly recently so are fresh in my mind) are the 4 and 20 series.

The 4 now displays 'HOUGHTON' on its blind. Fairly obvious where it goes when heading south, but for a fairly long route, passengers are fortunate enough to have a handful of calling points on the side of the vehicle.
It is also fortunate that there aren't too many route variations.
Apart from a couple of short runs, the only variation I can think of off the top of my head, is the evening/sunday Fallowfield Way terminators. 

Compare that to the three variants of route that the Purple Streetlite takes (I will come back to the allocated odd-workings they take part in shortly) and the pretty vague linear route map at the rear of the vehicle and I foresee some confusion ahead.

There is no mention of the different routes between Houghton and Durham (it simply says Houghton - Belmont - Durham on the rear of the vehicle).
I've already seen confusion when an X20 turns up (and that's with the scrolling display!).
I didn't think the Doxford diversions were originally worth a mention, although now the single destination is used, will anyone be aware of the diversion?

Then we have the scheduled odd-workings. Vehicles displaying a one line destination, but with no clue for irregular passengers as to which route it takes to get to that end point.
For a convoluted route, again I foresee confusion.

As enthusiasts, I reckon it is often easy to work out where, when and what time bus we need to get.
For those working in the industry, maybe even easier.
For normal passengers, I would state again (I know that I have said it before), that travel and information needs to be easy to find, easy to obtain and easy to understand.
Not everyone can access the internet and not everyone has the ability to read a timetable to check on via points.

Let's find a medium that works for everyone. Please.

I would imagine that the drivers will eventually get sick of all the "Do you go to.....?" questions!
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(28/01/2018, 20:31)Jamie M Wrote: It looks stylish and much bolder. You can see what bus you're going to get on, no pointless via-point clutter that very few people can read. This may be me being naive, but who gets on a bus without knowing where it's heading? Half the time the older folks or less-abled can't even read the display and ask the driver anyway. The number of folk who do not have internet access, are afraid to speak to drivers and have no idea how to get somewhere by bus is probably very small. Nexus and whatnot also give good advice of how to get around. Yes, it needs to be easy to find - but I'd gather a huge percentage find it extremely easy to find the right bus.

Yes - agree with this.

The timetables at the bus stops themselves have the via points listed on them, so passengers don't need to have access to the internet to be able to see where a bus goes on its way to the main destination. 

It reminds me of when I was waiting to board the 16 to Durham a couple of years ago. The person in front of me wanted to go to Annfield Plain. The driver informed her that the bus didn't go to Annfield Plain (nothing else accompanied that which wasn't massively helpful) and they responded 'well it says Annfield Plain on the front'. This surely demonstrates that the outgoing style had the ability to cause confusion just as much as the incoming one?

Regardless of what the destinations look like, it is impossible to please everyone.
(28/01/2018, 20:58)S813 FVK Wrote: Yes - agree with this.

The timetables at the bus stops themselves have the via points listed on them, so passengers don't need to have access to the internet to be able to see where a bus goes on its way to the main destination. 

It reminds me of when I was waiting to board the 16 to Durham a couple of years ago. The person in front of me wanted to go to Annfield Plain. The driver informed her that the bus didn't go to Annfield Plain (nothing else accompanied that which wasn't massively helpful) and they responded 'well it says Annfield Plain on the front'. This surely demonstrates that the outgoing style had the ability to cause confusion just as much as the incoming one?

Regardless of what the destinations look like, it is impossible to please everyone.


Mainly it's enthusiasts are the ones who aren't happy... Tongue
(28/01/2018, 20:31)Jamie M Wrote: It looks stylish and much bolder. You can see what bus you're going to get on, no pointless via-point clutter that very few people can read. This may be me being naive, but who gets on a bus without knowing where it's heading? Half the time the older folks or less-abled can't even read the display and ask the driver anyway. The number of folk who do not have internet access, are afraid to speak to drivers and have no idea how to get somewhere by bus is probably very small. Nexus and whatnot also give good advice of how to get around. Yes, it needs to be easy to find - but I'd gather a huge percentage find it extremely easy to find the right bus.

I couldn't give a rats chuff about how stylish it is.
I want it to be functional and serve its purpose, so that everyone can make use of public transport.

I think you miss the point slightly regarding people boarding a bus and not knowing where they're going.
The point I was making, was that not everyone has an encyclopedic knowledge of buses, not everyone can read timetables and not everyone has the confidence or ability to speak to people and ask questions (I think that last point is more than obvious when reading contributions on this forum). However the need to make public transport accessible to all, is huge thing. Whether it be DDA regs, drivers being trained in hidden disabilities (see link I shared in bus passes thread) or anything else - such as single line destination blinds.

The timetable issue is a big thing.
It is taught in schools http://www.teachingideas.co.uk/time/timetable-problems

It is also taught to adults or teenagers undertaking Functional Skills
https://www.skillsworkshop.org/resources...an-journey

So not only is using the internet not always feasible, but we have people who can't or wont ask questions, we have people who cant or struggle to read timetables and now we have blinds that don't list via points (however perfect or imperfect previous scrolling displays were).

In essence, we handful of barriers put in place through mental, social or other issues and another put in place by the operator.
'Illegitimis non carborundum'
(28/01/2018, 19:49)Michael Wrote: With only 5338 needing to be transferred to Deptford out of the Citaro's, will 3974 move back in the special events fleet, 5204 back to Chester and will 4929, 4937 be withdrawn in the coming week or so?

5204 was returned to Chester-le-Street a while ago.  4929 was withdrawn on 18-01-18.  4937 is still clinging on covering the Enterprise Park Shuttle at Deptford.
(28/01/2018, 20:32)idiot Wrote: Should drivers be operating a ticket machine (essentially a big mobile phone) when driving!?

According to this, no.
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-...58#rule149

Rule 149 and and 150 are the ones to look for.
'Illegitimis non carborundum'
(28/01/2018, 21:46)BFK Wrote: 5204 was returned to Chester-le-Street a while ago.  4929 was withdrawn on 18-01-18.  4937 is still clinging on covering the Enterprise Park Shuttle at Deptford.

Fleet list updated now!  Wink

3974/75, on paper, should be released back to Special Events Fleet from today following completion of the Mercedes Citaro refurbishment programme. In reality, likely that they'll be retained for a little bit longer at Deptford, due to a number of outstanding transfers (such as the aforementioned 5338 from Washington).
I must say I prefer...... the new dest style with just the final destination on. And surely it's easier for elderly and partially sighted people to see. I'd say most people know where the bus is going anyway so know need for via points. But I'm sure all this will change again at some point it the future
(28/01/2018, 20:57)LeeCalder Wrote: I would imagine that the drivers will eventually get sick of all the "Do you go to.....?" questions!

(28/01/2018, 22:02)pdiddy Wrote: I must say I prefer...... the new dest style with just the final destination on. And surely it's easier for elderly and partially sighted people to see. I'd say most people know where the bus is going anyway so know need for via points. But I'm sure all this will change again at some point it the future

Will you be saying that when Lee's prediction comes true? ^ Wink

I won't repeat myself about the black/white blinds and how through such a bad design, it is far from easy for some to read.
'Illegitimis non carborundum'
(28/01/2018, 21:24)Andreos1 Wrote: The timetable issue is a big thing.
It is taught in schools... It is also taught to adults or teenagers undertaking Functional Skills... we have people who cant or struggle to read timetables...

The only time I've ever known my passengers to use via points is when a load of teenagers got on the 516 down the seafront because they saw it went to Horsley Hill Square. Other than that, they're not much use when someone's hailing a bus on the street because there's not time to read all of it, and at bus stations I often see people stand looking at the display for a while, and then get on and ask where it goes anyway.

I don't quite understand your point about people not being able to read timetables. Yes they are taught in schools, but as time and maths problems, and if someone just wants to know where the bus goes then they don't need to understand the time aspect. And if they can't read the timetables due to eyesight problems then a half-list of destinations in inch high characters 9ft up on a bus coming towards them at 30mph probably won't be much better.

I'm not massively FOR the changes but I really don't think there's an accessibility issue involved.
(28/01/2018, 22:17)MrBoyt Wrote: The only time I've ever known my passengers to use via points is when a load of teenagers got on the 516 down the seafront because they saw it went to Horsley Hill Square. Other than that, they're not much use when someone's hailing a bus on the street because there's not time to read all of it, and at bus stations I often see people stand looking at the display for a while, and then get on and ask where it goes anyway.

I don't quite understand your point about people not being able to read timetables. Yes they are taught in schools, but as time and maths problems, and if someone just wants to know where the bus goes then they don't need to understand the time aspect. And if they can't read the timetables due to eyesight problems then a half-list of destinations in inch high characters 9ft up on a bus coming towards them at 30mph probably won't be much better.

I'm not massively FOR the changes but I really don't think there's an accessibility issue involved.

The timetables arent just time and maths problems. In Functional Skills for example, it is about extracting information and data - such as knowing which bus will get them to a certain point.

The black and white blinds aren't very good for those who are dyslexic.
The high contrast colours can clash/blur for certain types of dyslexia.
Tie that together with justified text and there is the potential for big issues. Particularly when other factors are thrown in to account.

To go back to the via points. Which bus should I get from Gateshead - Heworth?
The Q1, Q2, 27, X9 or X10? Chances are I will plump for the first two if not familiar with the area or services. If I am familiar, I will plump for one of the last three options. Despite it not being advertised or displayed on the blind.
'Illegitimis non carborundum'
(28/01/2018, 22:17)MrBoyt Wrote: I'm not massively FOR the changes but I really don't think there's an accessibility issue involved.

Yes - I think this is where I'm currently sitting on the matter, too. I don't think there's any accessibility issues here, but the nature of the routes of a growing number of services are going to mean that some of the main points are going to be omitted completely.

Driving around today, I saw several buses on the new 9 service. It just looked wrong, seeing a bus in Murton showing 'Lukes Lane', and whilst one of the aims of the new service is to encourage more cross-city journeys, it still feels like Sunderland is the place most people in Murton will be travelling to (as the link between Murton and Sunderland has been established for a very long time) and this is what should be more prominently shown on the display. Indeed, I'd hazard a guess most of the passengers in Murton haven't got a clue where Lukes Lane is!

(28/01/2018, 22:30)Andreos1 Wrote: The black and white blinds aren't very good for those who are dyslexic.
The high contrast colours can clash/blur for certain types of dyslexia.
Tie that together with justified text and there is the potential for big issues. Particularly when other factors are thrown in to account.

I know you've mentioned this a few times in the past - but I am still surprised, if the white LED on black background it is that much of an issue for passengers with dyslexia, that it has not been reported to Customer Services as posing an issue (to my knowledge, at least)?

I am not disputing what you've said, or the sources you've provided to support your statements in the past, but I still do wonder whether the fact it's an LED rather than printed, changes things?

Whilst a number of operators have spec'd white destinations for a few years now, I believe it is intended to become the new standard specification for Stagecoach UK too. Seems a lot of operators are going down that route - why would they, if it is going to cause such a huge accessibility issue?
(28/01/2018, 22:31)Dan Wrote: Yes - I think this is where I'm currently sitting on the matter, too. I don't think there's any accessibility issues here, but the nature of the routes of a growing number of services are going to mean that some of the main points are going to be omitted completely.

Driving around today, I saw several buses on the new 9 service. It just looked wrong, seeing a bus in Murton showing 'Lukes Lane', and whilst one of the aims of the new service is to encourage more cross-city journeys, it still feels like Sunderland is the place most people in Murton will be travelling to (as the link between Murton and Sunderland has been established for a very long time) and this is what should be more prominently shown on the display. Indeed, I'd hazard a guess most of the passengers in Murton haven't got a clue where Lukes Lane is!

I think a Split Destination would be more be suitable like we see on the X9/X10 for example, so you'd have Sunderland for Lukes Lane and Sunderland for Murton with individual displays for the terminus of the route displaying as we have now once the service gets into Sunderland.
(28/01/2018, 22:31)Dan Wrote: Yes - I think this is where I'm currently sitting on the matter, too. I don't think there's any accessibility issues here, but the nature of the routes of a growing number of services are going to mean that some of the main points are going to be omitted completely.

Driving around today, I saw several buses on the new 9 service. It just looked wrong, seeing a bus in Murton showing 'Lukes Lane', and whilst one of the aims of the new service is to encourage more cross-city journeys, it still feels like Sunderland is the place most people in Murton will be travelling to (as the link between Murton and Sunderland has been established for a very long time) and this is what should be more prominently shown on the display. Indeed, I'd hazard a guess most of the passengers in Murton haven't got a clue where Lukes Lane is!


I know you've mentioned this a few times in the past - but I am still surprised, if the white LED on black background it is that much of an issue for passengers with dyslexia, that it has not been reported to Customer Services as posing an issue (to my knowledge, at least)?

I am not disputing what you've said, or the sources you've provided to support your statements in the past, but I still do wonder whether the fact it's an LED rather than printed, changes things?

Whilst a number of operators have spec'd white destinations for a few years now, I believe it is intended to become the new standard specification for Stagecoach UK too. Seems a lot of operators are going down that route - why would they, if it is going to cause such a huge accessibility issue?

I am far from an expert (touch wood), but have some occupational experience through work.

The issues aren't just restricted to printed material.
Computer software is available to download and provide a virtual overlay for monitors.
Some software/websites allow the user to change the background and font colour too.

I have no idea why organisations such as the BDA have seemingly not yet broach the subject with relevant bodies.
The research is there regarding black/white or other contrasting colours...

Edit: Done some digging and in the following link, there is reference to some potential breaches of legislation. Although it doesn't give specific examples of what would constitute a breach
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm...16vw35.htm

Quote:People with Dyslexia often experience a great deal of trouble with organization and memory. This can have significant effects on their ability to navigate and follow directions (particularly oral directions). The public transport system is a good example of how Dyslexia can interact with day-to-day activities. The system can be a very confusing and difficult for a person with Dyslexia. The need to remember destinations, times, the position of trains or buses at specific points are all examples of how making a simple journey can be incredibly difficult. Similarly the way information is displayed and dispensed, often in ways inaccessible to people with Dyslexia. Furthermore this may impact upon work, educational, recreational, and familial activity. This may therefore contravene UNCRPD Article 9 (Accessibility) and Article 30.
'Illegitimis non carborundum'
(28/01/2018, 22:45)Malarkey Wrote: I think a Split Destination would be more be suitable like we see on the X9/X10 for example, so you'd have Sunderland for Lukes Lane and Sunderland for Murton with individual displays for the terminus of the route displaying as we have now once the service gets into Sunderland.

That would be great, but it may be vulnerable to drivers forgetting to change the destination once they get past Sunderland, although I'd have thought a reminder on the running board would help prevent that issue.

Perhaps, if possible, something could be set up similar to the Quaylink Q1/Q2 where the destination automatically changes when it gets to a certain point (providing it worked of course).
(28/01/2018, 22:51)S813 FVK Wrote: That would be great, but it may be vulnerable to drivers forgetting to change the destination once they get past Sunderland, although I'd have thought a reminder on the running board would help prevent that issue.

Perhaps, if possible, something could be set up similar to the Quaylink Q1/Q2 where the destination automatically changes when it gets to a certain point (providing it worked of course).

The 9 now has NSA's so a short announcement as it approaches Sunderland could serve as a reminder for both Drivers and Passengers.
(28/01/2018, 22:30)Andreos1 Wrote: The black and white blinds aren't very good for those who are dyslexic.
The high contrast colours can clash/blur for certain types of dyslexia.
Tie that together with justified text and there is the potential for big issues. Particularly when other factors are thrown in to account.

To go back to the via points. Which bus should I get from Gateshead - Heworth?
The Q1, Q2, 27, X9 or X10? Chances are I will plump for the first two if not familiar with the area or services. If I am familiar, I will plump for one of the last three options. Despite it not being advertised or displayed on the blind.

If the white on black blinds are so unreadable then surely the removal of the via points is either not a problem, or will make it easier to read as the display isn't so full of characters?

If you got on the Q1 or Q2 and thought it took too long, then you'd probably get a different bus next time, no harm done. So yeah, still don't think it's much of an issue.
Well i think the 5 is the worst bus service ive been on tbh now it goes to north shields feel sorry for the drivers who have to do it and was strange seeing the 9 today saying murton and lukes lane i like the brand on the 9 to
‘[quote="gneasy91" pid='213302' dateline='1517181730']
Well i think the 5 is the worst bus service ive been on tbh now it goes to north shields  feel sorry for the drivers who have to do it and was strange seeing the 9 today saying murton and lukes lane i like the brand on the 9 to
What will happen when GNE try to regulate the 5 for late running.will they still run jarrow to northsheilds as priority, as they get paid off nexus for that link. I think comming of a 50 onto 5 onwards to jarrow then northshields is going to be an uphill battle in rush o hour .normally the 5 runs nis to jarrow and starts return from there.i don’t know how this will work now. I’ve known people wait 90 mins at jarrow for a5 to turn up. Fun and games to commence?

I was waiting for 5 on Sunday morning ar jarrow,and the  Black cats streetlites 9 to LUKES Lane was in the stand with doors open.the driver was out of his cab, asking if any of his passengers were going to LUKES lane, if they could help keep him right as he did not know the route.just wait til Monday mornings start, I bet there will be a few drivers relying on passengers directions on route.