Franchising - Good/Bad
Franchising - Good/Bad
(06 Jul 2020, 7:46 pm)Andreos1 I can't remember using the Vario to be honest.
However, like the Tucana - the Strata does its job. It fills a gap that would otherwise be left.
If the Tucana was good enough for TFL...
(06 Jul 2020, 7:46 pm)Andreos1 I can't remember using the Vario to be honest.
However, like the Tucana - the Strata does its job. It fills a gap that would otherwise be left.
If the Tucana was good enough for TFL...
(06 Jul 2020, 8:53 pm)Andreos1 What about the ones used by GCT?
(07 Jul 2020, 12:44 pm)Big O I'm, sure you know what I mean, but routes such as the 335 until very recently, which is a busy one. The 319 similarly, the 13 at times can be very busy. I'm not sure if you get my drift but I'll be ending the discussion right here.
(07 Jul 2020, 12:44 pm)Big O I'm, sure you know what I mean, but routes such as the 335 until very recently, which is a busy one. The 319 similarly, the 13 at times can be very busy. I'm not sure if you get my drift but I'll be ending the discussion right here.
(07 Jul 2020, 3:19 pm)Andreos1 I don't know what you mean.Totally agree with Andreos here... be careful what you wish for! Let's give an example using completely fictitious numbers...
If the likes of the 319 are busy and loadings are tight, then GCT could allocate a bigger vehicle or Nexus can insist on one next time the contract is up for renewal.
You mentioned the independents missing sections of route out previously. As confirmed by others, it goes on with commercial services too. Either way it's unacceptable, but something that franchising can help remove or at least reduce by financial clawbacks.
The fact is, these smaller buses are being used on routes abandoned by the bigger boys.
Hartlepool have nowt. Do you want T&W to go down the same route or do you want people to have a lifeline service (all be it with a smaller vehicle)?
These smaller vehicles seem to be making a comeback (or they were prior to social distancing). Whether they're better than the bread-vans which came about after de-reg is another thing.
Whether it's dial a ride type services or contracted, they're allowing operators to cover areas that would otherwise have been left alone. In some cases, it has created enough demand to increase the vehicle size.
I'm all for re-regulation, but feel that contracted/franchised services is a better alternative to the some of the defragmented messes we see now. Particularly when it comes to benefiting the taxpayer.
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(07 Jul 2020, 3:19 pm)Andreos1 I don't know what you mean.Totally agree with Andreos here... be careful what you wish for! Let's give an example using completely fictitious numbers...
If the likes of the 319 are busy and loadings are tight, then GCT could allocate a bigger vehicle or Nexus can insist on one next time the contract is up for renewal.
You mentioned the independents missing sections of route out previously. As confirmed by others, it goes on with commercial services too. Either way it's unacceptable, but something that franchising can help remove or at least reduce by financial clawbacks.
The fact is, these smaller buses are being used on routes abandoned by the bigger boys.
Hartlepool have nowt. Do you want T&W to go down the same route or do you want people to have a lifeline service (all be it with a smaller vehicle)?
These smaller vehicles seem to be making a comeback (or they were prior to social distancing). Whether they're better than the bread-vans which came about after de-reg is another thing.
Whether it's dial a ride type services or contracted, they're allowing operators to cover areas that would otherwise have been left alone. In some cases, it has created enough demand to increase the vehicle size.
I'm all for re-regulation, but feel that contracted/franchised services is a better alternative to the some of the defragmented messes we see now. Particularly when it comes to benefiting the taxpayer.
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(07 Jul 2020, 8:19 pm)tyresmoke Totally agree with Andreos here... be careful what you wish for! Let's give an example using completely fictitious numbers...
Lets suppose you're tendering for a bunch of services, and you have £1 million to spend, with 10 services to cover. If prices come back at £120000 for a big bus on 10 services, or £100000 with a minibus being used.
Do you take the bids for a minibus at a total cost of £1m and cover all 10 services or use your £1m to cover 8 of them with big buses... then decide which two are you going to drop as you've got no money left?...
(07 Jul 2020, 8:19 pm)tyresmoke Totally agree with Andreos here... be careful what you wish for! Let's give an example using completely fictitious numbers...
Lets suppose you're tendering for a bunch of services, and you have £1 million to spend, with 10 services to cover. If prices come back at £120000 for a big bus on 10 services, or £100000 with a minibus being used.
Do you take the bids for a minibus at a total cost of £1m and cover all 10 services or use your £1m to cover 8 of them with big buses... then decide which two are you going to drop as you've got no money left?...
(07 Jul 2020, 3:19 pm)Andreos1 I don't know what you mean.The used bus market offers a chance to pick up similarly sized midi-buses, only a few years old, that may use more in terms of diesel but offer a better quality throughout the life of the contract than the Mellors. The Mellors offer a false economy and are completely knackered after their contract. Whereas a properly maintained E200 could be used over the span of two or three contracts.
If the likes of the 319 are busy and loadings are tight, then GCT could allocate a bigger vehicle or Nexus can insist on one next time the contract is up for renewal.
You mentioned the independents missing sections of route out previously. As confirmed by others, it goes on with commercial services too. Either way it's unacceptable, but something that franchising can help remove or at least reduce by financial clawbacks.
The fact is, these smaller buses are being used on routes abandoned by the bigger boys.
Hartlepool have nowt. Do you want T&W to go down the same route or do you want people to have a lifeline service (all be it with a smaller vehicle)?
These smaller vehicles seem to be making a comeback (or they were prior to social distancing). Whether they're better than the bread-vans which came about after de-reg is another thing.
Whether it's dial a ride type services or contracted, they're allowing operators to cover areas that would otherwise have been left alone. In some cases, it has created enough demand to increase the vehicle size.
I'm all for re-regulation, but feel that contracted/franchised services is a better alternative to the some of the defragmented messes we see now. Particularly when it comes to benefiting the taxpayer.
(07 Jul 2020, 3:19 pm)Andreos1 I don't know what you mean.The used bus market offers a chance to pick up similarly sized midi-buses, only a few years old, that may use more in terms of diesel but offer a better quality throughout the life of the contract than the Mellors. The Mellors offer a false economy and are completely knackered after their contract. Whereas a properly maintained E200 could be used over the span of two or three contracts.
If the likes of the 319 are busy and loadings are tight, then GCT could allocate a bigger vehicle or Nexus can insist on one next time the contract is up for renewal.
You mentioned the independents missing sections of route out previously. As confirmed by others, it goes on with commercial services too. Either way it's unacceptable, but something that franchising can help remove or at least reduce by financial clawbacks.
The fact is, these smaller buses are being used on routes abandoned by the bigger boys.
Hartlepool have nowt. Do you want T&W to go down the same route or do you want people to have a lifeline service (all be it with a smaller vehicle)?
These smaller vehicles seem to be making a comeback (or they were prior to social distancing). Whether they're better than the bread-vans which came about after de-reg is another thing.
Whether it's dial a ride type services or contracted, they're allowing operators to cover areas that would otherwise have been left alone. In some cases, it has created enough demand to increase the vehicle size.
I'm all for re-regulation, but feel that contracted/franchised services is a better alternative to the some of the defragmented messes we see now. Particularly when it comes to benefiting the taxpayer.
(08 Jul 2020, 11:24 am)Big O The used bus market offers a chance to pick up similarly sized midi-buses, only a few years old, that may use more in terms of diesel but offer a better quality throughout the life of the contract than the Mellors. The Mellors offer a false economy and are completely knackered after their contract. Whereas a properly maintained E200 could be used over the span of two or three contracts.
Not every route can use midibuses, such as the K2 due to its Sharon Close section, however better planning by Nexus could see the withdrawal and joining of some services together to ensure they are not paying for 2 contacts when they could pay for 1. Sending the 335 to Killingworth replacing the K2 in part is something I think could be beneficial and create a through-link from Quorum to Killingworth and without the need to change at Four Lane Ends.
(08 Jul 2020, 11:24 am)Big O The used bus market offers a chance to pick up similarly sized midi-buses, only a few years old, that may use more in terms of diesel but offer a better quality throughout the life of the contract than the Mellors. The Mellors offer a false economy and are completely knackered after their contract. Whereas a properly maintained E200 could be used over the span of two or three contracts.
Not every route can use midibuses, such as the K2 due to its Sharon Close section, however better planning by Nexus could see the withdrawal and joining of some services together to ensure they are not paying for 2 contacts when they could pay for 1. Sending the 335 to Killingworth replacing the K2 in part is something I think could be beneficial and create a through-link from Quorum to Killingworth and without the need to change at Four Lane Ends.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/202...ger-levels
First Group posts £300m loss for the year ending March, ie before coronavirus hits. Uncertainty over its ability to keep operating as a going concern in the short to medium term and they plan to reduce their operate mileage by up to 30% after government support for bus services ends next year. Unclear as to whether this will be an average across all of their operations or pulling out of entire regions.
Passengers set to loose out through a mix of long term miss-management of First coming home to roost and no clear bus policy from government.
Who’s going to fill in the gaps of First’s impending retrenchment? If they cut deep in the Potteries area I dread to think how the network could recover as the council provides zero bus provision, you’d be lucky around there to have an accurate timetable at the stop, if it has a service at all. Fat chance of a supported bus service replacement, you’d be lucky to have a community charity minibus if the pensioners can do enough sad-facing in the local paper.
Compare this to a PTE area like Manchester. TfGM aren’t perfect but they have an established framework for assessing changes to the commercial network and any response needed by the subsidised network:
https://democracy.greatermanchester-ca.g...rt%20A.pdf
This document also confirms the Greater Manchester bus subsidy budget for the general network, i.e. just filling in the gaps left by commercial operators, is £19m, which seems much worse value than the fully franchised London system at about £6 million.
We can split hairs over the build quality of a Mellor over an E200 but it truly is that it nothing if the private sector is left entirely to run the network.
I never understand why Nexus don't just start their own little network, I know the upfront costs will be a bit more but over time it'll surely pay for itself.
Could easily work like.
Mon - Fri:
W1 Morning to early evening -> runs onto 11 at night
W3 Morning to early evening -> runs onto 19 at night
Then have some deckers / full singles around which run the likes of commuter services and school bus runs which should work together that then run the extra evening services such as the 41 and 42 and 59 and K2 etc inbetween.
Sat - Sun:
Metro Replacement + Unprofitable Services
Better than spending money on tendering and giving money to other people to run it as basic as they possibly can and also don't have to spend money on Metro Replacements every weekend.
(09 Jul 2020, 11:17 am)Storx I never understand why Nexus don't just start their own little network, I know the upfront costs will be a bit more but over time it'll surely pay for itself.
Could easily work like.
Mon - Fri:
W1 Morning to early evening -> runs onto 11 at night
W3 Morning to early evening -> runs onto 19 at night
Then have some deckers / full singles around which run the likes of commuter services and school bus runs which should work together that then run the extra evening services such as the 41 and 42 and 59 and K2 etc inbetween.
Sat - Sun:
Metro Replacement + Unprofitable Services
Better than spending money on tendering and giving money to other people to run it as basic as they possibly can and also don't have to spend money on Metro Replacements every weekend.
(09 Jul 2020, 11:17 am)Storx I never understand why Nexus don't just start their own little network, I know the upfront costs will be a bit more but over time it'll surely pay for itself.
Could easily work like.
Mon - Fri:
W1 Morning to early evening -> runs onto 11 at night
W3 Morning to early evening -> runs onto 19 at night
Then have some deckers / full singles around which run the likes of commuter services and school bus runs which should work together that then run the extra evening services such as the 41 and 42 and 59 and K2 etc inbetween.
Sat - Sun:
Metro Replacement + Unprofitable Services
Better than spending money on tendering and giving money to other people to run it as basic as they possibly can and also don't have to spend money on Metro Replacements every weekend.
(09 Jul 2020, 11:25 am)cbma06 I don’t think Nexus should be running anything, I think Go-Ahead Group should have a go and purchase the Metro system from DB (Stagecoach runs the tram services in Sheffield). DB are running everything into the ground and have a bowl out for cash handouts and grants.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
(09 Jul 2020, 11:25 am)cbma06 I don’t think Nexus should be running anything, I think Go-Ahead Group should have a go and purchase the Metro system from DB (Stagecoach runs the tram services in Sheffield). DB are running everything into the ground and have a bowl out for cash handouts and grants.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
(09 Jul 2020, 11:25 am)cbma06 I don’t think Nexus should be running anything, I think Go-Ahead Group should have a go and purchase the Metro system from DB (Stagecoach runs the tram services in Sheffield). DB are running everything into the ground and have a bowl out for cash handouts and grants.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
(09 Jul 2020, 11:25 am)cbma06 I don’t think Nexus should be running anything, I think Go-Ahead Group should have a go and purchase the Metro system from DB (Stagecoach runs the tram services in Sheffield). DB are running everything into the ground and have a bowl out for cash handouts and grants.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
(09 Jul 2020, 12:08 pm)Big O Not sure if you have insider information but what DB does, is not illegal or explicit...I can't imagine British companies based abroad sending money to any other country but Britain, so what's the problem when DB do it? Having worked for DB, they're not a bad firm at all, the administration could be a bit better than it is now, but they are by no means a terrible company and in fact, the Chiltern Railways franchise is probably the best in the land. I'm not fond of Grand Central but I think things will change once the 180s are ridden of.Nexus run the Metro system, plain and simple. They tried to franchise it out (for want of a better word) to DB which lasted a few years before they took it back in house 2-3 years ago. DB have no involvement in Metro.
Also, I'm sure DB does not own the Metro System.
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(09 Jul 2020, 12:08 pm)Big O Not sure if you have insider information but what DB does, is not illegal or explicit...I can't imagine British companies based abroad sending money to any other country but Britain, so what's the problem when DB do it? Having worked for DB, they're not a bad firm at all, the administration could be a bit better than it is now, but they are by no means a terrible company and in fact, the Chiltern Railways franchise is probably the best in the land. I'm not fond of Grand Central but I think things will change once the 180s are ridden of.Nexus run the Metro system, plain and simple. They tried to franchise it out (for want of a better word) to DB which lasted a few years before they took it back in house 2-3 years ago. DB have no involvement in Metro.
Also, I'm sure DB does not own the Metro System.
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To answer the question I think if done right than franchising certain bus services could be a good thing especially vital services that don't make a profit. Hartlepool is busy with buses during the day but come 6:30 on a evening most areas in the town stop getting a service. Franchising evening services and services to North Tees Hospital along with services to the Villages seasonal and School services would work. It could potentially help struggling independents and every area would be served by some sort of service but the route and fairs would be decided by the council or unity authority. It could work.
(09 Jul 2020, 12:12 pm)tyresmoke Nexus run the Metro system, plain and simple. They tried to franchise it out (for want of a better word) to DB which lasted a few years before they took it back in house 2-3 years ago. DB have no involvement in Metro.
(09 Jul 2020, 12:12 pm)tyresmoke Nexus run the Metro system, plain and simple. They tried to franchise it out (for want of a better word) to DB which lasted a few years before they took it back in house 2-3 years ago. DB have no involvement in Metro.
(11 Jul 2020, 1:14 am)Big O I never suggested they did...was only answering the post in question.Aye it was cbma06 who was suggesting DB were still involved despite them having left the scene years ago. Nexus only tried to use them as a scapegoat anyway in my opinion then had no choice but to take it back in house from public pressure, or that was the impression I got. It’s hardly been a glowing operation since then, which suggests the fundamental basics of operating it just aren’t where they’re meant to be, regardless of who is the public face operating it.
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(11 Jul 2020, 1:14 am)Big O I never suggested they did...was only answering the post in question.Aye it was cbma06 who was suggesting DB were still involved despite them having left the scene years ago. Nexus only tried to use them as a scapegoat anyway in my opinion then had no choice but to take it back in house from public pressure, or that was the impression I got. It’s hardly been a glowing operation since then, which suggests the fundamental basics of operating it just aren’t where they’re meant to be, regardless of who is the public face operating it.
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(11 Jul 2020, 6:56 am)tyresmoke Aye it was cbma06 who was suggesting DB were still involved despite them having left the scene years ago. Nexus only tried to use them as a scapegoat anyway in my opinion then had no choice but to take it back in house from public pressure, or that was the impression I got. It’s hardly been a glowing operation since then, which suggests the fundamental basics of operating it just aren’t where they’re meant to be, regardless of who is the public face operating it.
(11 Jul 2020, 6:56 am)tyresmoke Aye it was cbma06 who was suggesting DB were still involved despite them having left the scene years ago. Nexus only tried to use them as a scapegoat anyway in my opinion then had no choice but to take it back in house from public pressure, or that was the impression I got. It’s hardly been a glowing operation since then, which suggests the fundamental basics of operating it just aren’t where they’re meant to be, regardless of who is the public face operating it.
(11 Jul 2020, 10:07 am)Andreos1 There was a raft of funding available from central government, the conditions attached to it meant that the day to day running had to be franchised out.Ah right! Wasn't aware of that. Makes sense though
DB got it for a couple of years, Nexus got the funding and then the contract ran out.
That's essentially it.
I don't think Nexus wanted to do it that way and got out as soon as they could - after getting the funding.
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(11 Jul 2020, 10:07 am)Andreos1 There was a raft of funding available from central government, the conditions attached to it meant that the day to day running had to be franchised out.Ah right! Wasn't aware of that. Makes sense though
DB got it for a couple of years, Nexus got the funding and then the contract ran out.
That's essentially it.
I don't think Nexus wanted to do it that way and got out as soon as they could - after getting the funding.
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(11 Jul 2020, 10:55 am)tyresmoke Ah right! Wasn't aware of that. Makes sense though
(11 Jul 2020, 10:55 am)tyresmoke Ah right! Wasn't aware of that. Makes sense though
