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North East Buses Local Bus Scene Operations, Management & Infrastructure 2021 "Bus Revolution" launched

2021 "Bus Revolution" launched

2021 "Bus Revolution" launched

 
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17 Mar 2021, 12:11 pm #41
(17 Mar 2021, 11:59 am)Andreos1 I've never been keen on doing that. Apart from any administrative costs behind the scenes, you're actually putting barriers in place. When the opposite should be done imo. You want people on buses. 
My parents are both retired and both still have their driving licences. They use the bus to Newcastle because (for them) it is cheaper than parking. Not because it is easy, convenient or because it has WiFi.
Assuming others are the same, then introducing a token fare impacts on how cheap the bus actually is and suddenly makes using it less attractive. Regardless of any associated behind the scenes impact or admin costs.

To me, there are three options, you either have free bus travel open to everyone, nobody, or just those that need it.

They already manage to have it means tested for those with disabilities, so why not just make the whole scheme means tested?

I have the exact same opinion with the TV License (although the existence of a TV license is another discussion entirely). If you can afford something, you should pay for it.
streetdeckfan
17 Mar 2021, 12:11 pm #41

(17 Mar 2021, 11:59 am)Andreos1 I've never been keen on doing that. Apart from any administrative costs behind the scenes, you're actually putting barriers in place. When the opposite should be done imo. You want people on buses. 
My parents are both retired and both still have their driving licences. They use the bus to Newcastle because (for them) it is cheaper than parking. Not because it is easy, convenient or because it has WiFi.
Assuming others are the same, then introducing a token fare impacts on how cheap the bus actually is and suddenly makes using it less attractive. Regardless of any associated behind the scenes impact or admin costs.

To me, there are three options, you either have free bus travel open to everyone, nobody, or just those that need it.

They already manage to have it means tested for those with disabilities, so why not just make the whole scheme means tested?

I have the exact same opinion with the TV License (although the existence of a TV license is another discussion entirely). If you can afford something, you should pay for it.

17 Mar 2021, 2:13 pm #42
(17 Mar 2021, 12:11 pm)streetdeckfan To me, there are three options, you either have free bus travel open to everyone, nobody, or just those that need it.

They already manage to have it means tested for those with disabilities, so why not just make the whole scheme means tested?

I have the exact same opinion with the TV License (although the existence of a TV license is another discussion entirely). If you can afford something, you should pay for it.

I'm autisic, i can honestly say that getting a disabaled bus pass is very diffcult. I find assessments stressfull, so when i was told i would need one, i didnt bother and just got a key card instead.

Twitter: @ASX_Terranova
Blog: https://asxterranova.home.blog/
ASX_Terranova
17 Mar 2021, 2:13 pm #42

(17 Mar 2021, 12:11 pm)streetdeckfan To me, there are three options, you either have free bus travel open to everyone, nobody, or just those that need it.

They already manage to have it means tested for those with disabilities, so why not just make the whole scheme means tested?

I have the exact same opinion with the TV License (although the existence of a TV license is another discussion entirely). If you can afford something, you should pay for it.

I'm autisic, i can honestly say that getting a disabaled bus pass is very diffcult. I find assessments stressfull, so when i was told i would need one, i didnt bother and just got a key card instead.


Twitter: @ASX_Terranova
Blog: https://asxterranova.home.blog/

17 Mar 2021, 2:48 pm #43
(17 Mar 2021, 2:13 pm)ASX_Terranova I'm autisic, i can honestly say that getting a disabaled bus pass is very diffcult. I find assessments stressfull, so when i was told i would need one, i didnt bother and just got a key card instead.

I'm not being funny, but that's how it should be (difficult to get, not stressful). They shouldn't be handing them out to any old sod, but equally they shouldn't be so difficult that people who need them can't get them.

I don't know what your situation is, but say you had a good job you are able to afford the ticket, then I honestly don't think you should be entitled to a free bus pass. 

Also, with what I'm suggesting there wouldn't need to be any assessments beyond what is already in place, ie. being on Universal Credit, Pension Credits, or any legacy benefit. 

To me, it comes down to whether you need the financial support to be able to travel, as I said further up I think it should be treated as benefit and nothing more.
streetdeckfan
17 Mar 2021, 2:48 pm #43

(17 Mar 2021, 2:13 pm)ASX_Terranova I'm autisic, i can honestly say that getting a disabaled bus pass is very diffcult. I find assessments stressfull, so when i was told i would need one, i didnt bother and just got a key card instead.

I'm not being funny, but that's how it should be (difficult to get, not stressful). They shouldn't be handing them out to any old sod, but equally they shouldn't be so difficult that people who need them can't get them.

I don't know what your situation is, but say you had a good job you are able to afford the ticket, then I honestly don't think you should be entitled to a free bus pass. 

Also, with what I'm suggesting there wouldn't need to be any assessments beyond what is already in place, ie. being on Universal Credit, Pension Credits, or any legacy benefit. 

To me, it comes down to whether you need the financial support to be able to travel, as I said further up I think it should be treated as benefit and nothing more.

Andreos1



14,155
17 Mar 2021, 2:53 pm #44
(17 Mar 2021, 12:11 pm)streetdeckfan To me, there are three options, you either have free bus travel open to everyone, nobody, or just those that need it.

They already manage to have it means tested for those with disabilities, so why not just make the whole scheme means tested?

I have the exact same opinion with the TV License (although the existence of a TV license is another discussion entirely). If you can afford something, you should pay for it.

Free travel as seen in several European cities would be the dream!
It opens up the network to all and encourages people to make the switch.

I don't understand why barriers should be put in to place for some CAT passes though. 
If it takes one car off the road, then surely that's a good thing. If it takes several off, then even better.

'Illegitimis non carborundum'
Andreos1
17 Mar 2021, 2:53 pm #44

(17 Mar 2021, 12:11 pm)streetdeckfan To me, there are three options, you either have free bus travel open to everyone, nobody, or just those that need it.

They already manage to have it means tested for those with disabilities, so why not just make the whole scheme means tested?

I have the exact same opinion with the TV License (although the existence of a TV license is another discussion entirely). If you can afford something, you should pay for it.

Free travel as seen in several European cities would be the dream!
It opens up the network to all and encourages people to make the switch.

I don't understand why barriers should be put in to place for some CAT passes though. 
If it takes one car off the road, then surely that's a good thing. If it takes several off, then even better.


'Illegitimis non carborundum'

17 Mar 2021, 3:15 pm #45
(17 Mar 2021, 2:53 pm)Andreos1 Free travel as seen in several European cities would be the dream!
It opens up the network to all and encourages people to make the switch.


I don't understand why barriers should be put in to place for some CAT passes though. 
If it takes one car off the road, then surely that's a good thing. If it takes several off, then even better.

I definitely agree, I'd love nothing more than for everyone to have access for free public transport, but realistically that's not going to happen on such a large scale. 
Maybe once we have a wider adoption of electric buses something like that might be viable due to the considerably lower running costs, but I can't see that happening any time soon.

The other issue is the taxes lost from all those cars no longer being on the road and using fuel would have to be made up from somewhere (actually taxing large international corporations would be a good start!)

Barriers wouldn't be put  in place for some passes, they would be in place for all passes, both disabled and older people (and anyone else who may be entitled to a concessionary pass).

As I said further up, for me you either offer free travel to everybody, nobody, or those who need it (which arguably those entitled to a disabled pass could come under, depending on their particular case).
streetdeckfan
17 Mar 2021, 3:15 pm #45

(17 Mar 2021, 2:53 pm)Andreos1 Free travel as seen in several European cities would be the dream!
It opens up the network to all and encourages people to make the switch.


I don't understand why barriers should be put in to place for some CAT passes though. 
If it takes one car off the road, then surely that's a good thing. If it takes several off, then even better.

I definitely agree, I'd love nothing more than for everyone to have access for free public transport, but realistically that's not going to happen on such a large scale. 
Maybe once we have a wider adoption of electric buses something like that might be viable due to the considerably lower running costs, but I can't see that happening any time soon.

The other issue is the taxes lost from all those cars no longer being on the road and using fuel would have to be made up from somewhere (actually taxing large international corporations would be a good start!)

Barriers wouldn't be put  in place for some passes, they would be in place for all passes, both disabled and older people (and anyone else who may be entitled to a concessionary pass).

As I said further up, for me you either offer free travel to everybody, nobody, or those who need it (which arguably those entitled to a disabled pass could come under, depending on their particular case).

Andreos1



14,155
17 Mar 2021, 5:52 pm #46
(17 Mar 2021, 3:15 pm)streetdeckfan I definitely agree, I'd love nothing more than for everyone to have access for free public transport, but realistically that's not going to happen on such a large scale. 
Maybe once we have a wider adoption of electric buses something like that might be viable due to the considerably lower running costs, but I can't see that happening any time soon.

The other issue is the taxes lost from all those cars no longer being on the road and using fuel would have to be made up from somewhere (actually taxing large international corporations would be a good start!)

Barriers wouldn't be put  in place for some passes, they would be in place for all passes, both disabled and older people (and anyone else who may be entitled to a concessionary pass).

As I said further up, for me you either offer free travel to everybody, nobody, or those who need it (which arguably those entitled to a disabled pass could come under, depending on their particular case).

But by putting those barriers up and making it more expensive or difficult for passengers to use the service, surely you see that it could result in more cars being on the road?
Which is the exact opposite of what operators want.
They don't want cars on the road. They want people to make that modal switch to public transport.

'Illegitimis non carborundum'
Andreos1
17 Mar 2021, 5:52 pm #46

(17 Mar 2021, 3:15 pm)streetdeckfan I definitely agree, I'd love nothing more than for everyone to have access for free public transport, but realistically that's not going to happen on such a large scale. 
Maybe once we have a wider adoption of electric buses something like that might be viable due to the considerably lower running costs, but I can't see that happening any time soon.

The other issue is the taxes lost from all those cars no longer being on the road and using fuel would have to be made up from somewhere (actually taxing large international corporations would be a good start!)

Barriers wouldn't be put  in place for some passes, they would be in place for all passes, both disabled and older people (and anyone else who may be entitled to a concessionary pass).

As I said further up, for me you either offer free travel to everybody, nobody, or those who need it (which arguably those entitled to a disabled pass could come under, depending on their particular case).

But by putting those barriers up and making it more expensive or difficult for passengers to use the service, surely you see that it could result in more cars being on the road?
Which is the exact opposite of what operators want.
They don't want cars on the road. They want people to make that modal switch to public transport.


'Illegitimis non carborundum'

17 Mar 2021, 6:36 pm #47
(17 Mar 2021, 5:52 pm)Andreos1 But by putting those barriers up and making it more expensive or difficult for passengers to use the service, surely you see that it could result in more cars being on the road?
Which is the exact opposite of what operators want.
They don't want cars on the road. They want people to make that modal switch to public transport.

But the general consensus seems to be operators want paying passengers, not ENCTS passengers as there isn't enough money in it
streetdeckfan
17 Mar 2021, 6:36 pm #47

(17 Mar 2021, 5:52 pm)Andreos1 But by putting those barriers up and making it more expensive or difficult for passengers to use the service, surely you see that it could result in more cars being on the road?
Which is the exact opposite of what operators want.
They don't want cars on the road. They want people to make that modal switch to public transport.

But the general consensus seems to be operators want paying passengers, not ENCTS passengers as there isn't enough money in it

Adrian



9,566
17 Mar 2021, 8:41 pm #48
Whilst the ENCTS scheme is discriminatory on the eligibility rules, the only reason we are viewing it as a problem is because its not properly funded... like everything else! If it was funded correctly, and operators got a more realistic level of reimbursement out of it, then I don't think we'd be talking about it in this way.

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Adrian
17 Mar 2021, 8:41 pm #48

Whilst the ENCTS scheme is discriminatory on the eligibility rules, the only reason we are viewing it as a problem is because its not properly funded... like everything else! If it was funded correctly, and operators got a more realistic level of reimbursement out of it, then I don't think we'd be talking about it in this way.


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17 Mar 2021, 9:30 pm #49
(17 Mar 2021, 8:41 pm)Adrian Whilst the ENCTS scheme is discriminatory on the eligibility rules, the only reason we are viewing it as a problem is because its not properly funded... like everything else! If it was funded correctly, and operators got a more realistic level of reimbursement out of it, then I don't think we'd be talking about it in this way.

I just disagree with the principal of it, the government could spend an extra £10bn on it, and I'd still think it should be means tested!
streetdeckfan
17 Mar 2021, 9:30 pm #49

(17 Mar 2021, 8:41 pm)Adrian Whilst the ENCTS scheme is discriminatory on the eligibility rules, the only reason we are viewing it as a problem is because its not properly funded... like everything else! If it was funded correctly, and operators got a more realistic level of reimbursement out of it, then I don't think we'd be talking about it in this way.

I just disagree with the principal of it, the government could spend an extra £10bn on it, and I'd still think it should be means tested!

Adrian



9,566
17 Mar 2021, 10:28 pm #50
OK this is starting to get a bit off topic. I'm happy to leave the posts where they are for now, but lets try and stick to the merits and concerns around the National Bus Strategy and what it may mean for our region.

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Adrian
17 Mar 2021, 10:28 pm #50

OK this is starting to get a bit off topic. I'm happy to leave the posts where they are for now, but lets try and stick to the merits and concerns around the National Bus Strategy and what it may mean for our region.


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col87



493
18 Mar 2021, 4:11 pm #51
(17 Mar 2021, 9:21 am)streetdeckfan Why would that be the case regarding electric cars. The only reason electric cars are still so expensive is because people think they need ~300 miles range, when a battery half the size with half the range would be more than sufficient. Even still, price of batteries is still coming down, I'd estimate in 5 years the price of electric vehicles will be lower than that of an ICE car since the rest of the parts are so much cheaper.

As for ENCTS, I personally think it should be means tested, and treated as the 'benefit' that it is. I don't think that people who can afford to travel by bus should have free bus travel, in the same way I think it should be open to all ages, based on their need rather than age.
It is open to all ages. Only people with a learning difficulty or disability alongside the over 65s can get them but part of the requirement is getting Personal independence payments ( PIP) which is the new disability benefit.  So technically it is already means tested as very few people can get the pass without been on PIP which in itself is very difficult to get.

(17 Mar 2021, 2:13 pm)ASX_Terranova I'm autisic, i can honestly say that getting a disabaled bus pass is very diffcult. I find assessments stressfull, so when i was told i would need one, i didnt bother and just got a key card instead.
I got dyspraxia and mental health so know what you mean it’s really difficult to get. I kept getting turned down for the pass it only when I eventually pip which itself was near impossible to get that I have managed to get one. The fact is it’s not the pass users fault if the bus companies are not getting the right reimbursement from it that would be the governments. A majority of pass holders struggle with everyday things so why make it more difficult by making them pay a fare each time they get the bus.  In that case they might as well get a taxi or if they able to use a car.  Which means more passengers lost.
Edited 18 Mar 2021, 4:20 pm by col87.
col87
18 Mar 2021, 4:11 pm #51

(17 Mar 2021, 9:21 am)streetdeckfan Why would that be the case regarding electric cars. The only reason electric cars are still so expensive is because people think they need ~300 miles range, when a battery half the size with half the range would be more than sufficient. Even still, price of batteries is still coming down, I'd estimate in 5 years the price of electric vehicles will be lower than that of an ICE car since the rest of the parts are so much cheaper.

As for ENCTS, I personally think it should be means tested, and treated as the 'benefit' that it is. I don't think that people who can afford to travel by bus should have free bus travel, in the same way I think it should be open to all ages, based on their need rather than age.
It is open to all ages. Only people with a learning difficulty or disability alongside the over 65s can get them but part of the requirement is getting Personal independence payments ( PIP) which is the new disability benefit.  So technically it is already means tested as very few people can get the pass without been on PIP which in itself is very difficult to get.

(17 Mar 2021, 2:13 pm)ASX_Terranova I'm autisic, i can honestly say that getting a disabaled bus pass is very diffcult. I find assessments stressfull, so when i was told i would need one, i didnt bother and just got a key card instead.
I got dyspraxia and mental health so know what you mean it’s really difficult to get. I kept getting turned down for the pass it only when I eventually pip which itself was near impossible to get that I have managed to get one. The fact is it’s not the pass users fault if the bus companies are not getting the right reimbursement from it that would be the governments. A majority of pass holders struggle with everyday things so why make it more difficult by making them pay a fare each time they get the bus.  In that case they might as well get a taxi or if they able to use a car.  Which means more passengers lost.

Adrian



9,566
19 Mar 2021, 6:45 pm #52
Five Reasons the National Bus Strategy will FAIL to deliver… and what we can do about it
https://abcommuters.com/2021/03/19/five-...-about-it/

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Adrian
19 Mar 2021, 6:45 pm #52

Five Reasons the National Bus Strategy will FAIL to deliver… and what we can do about it
https://abcommuters.com/2021/03/19/five-...-about-it/


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Andreos1



14,155
19 Mar 2021, 7:13 pm #53
(19 Mar 2021, 6:45 pm)Adrian Five Reasons the National Bus Strategy will FAIL to deliver… and what we can do about it
https://abcommuters.com/2021/03/19/five-...-about-it/

I'll have a proper read of it later.
Apart from the headline, the photo at the top of the page stood out.
That fella looks a right character!

'Illegitimis non carborundum'
Andreos1
19 Mar 2021, 7:13 pm #53

(19 Mar 2021, 6:45 pm)Adrian Five Reasons the National Bus Strategy will FAIL to deliver… and what we can do about it
https://abcommuters.com/2021/03/19/five-...-about-it/

I'll have a proper read of it later.
Apart from the headline, the photo at the top of the page stood out.
That fella looks a right character!


'Illegitimis non carborundum'

Adrian



9,566
26 May 2021, 7:51 am #54
Is anyone aware of any updates to this for Tyne and Wear (or elsewhere in the North East)? Page 11 of the strategy states:

"By the end of June 2021, we expect all LTAs, except MCAs which have started the statutory process of franchising bus services, to commit to establishing Enhanced Partnerships across their entire areas under the Bus Services Act, and all operators to co-operate with the LTA throughout the process. LTAs which also wish to pursue franchising may do so – but they should commit to implementing Enhanced Partnerships in the meantime until the franchising process, which can be lengthy, is complete. LTAs which are not mayoral combined authorities and wish to pursue franchising will need to satisfy the Secretary of State that they have the capability and resources to do so, and that it will better deliver service improvements for passengers."

Clock is ticking and I can't seem to find any mention of it in any NECA meetings.

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Adrian
26 May 2021, 7:51 am #54

Is anyone aware of any updates to this for Tyne and Wear (or elsewhere in the North East)? Page 11 of the strategy states:

"By the end of June 2021, we expect all LTAs, except MCAs which have started the statutory process of franchising bus services, to commit to establishing Enhanced Partnerships across their entire areas under the Bus Services Act, and all operators to co-operate with the LTA throughout the process. LTAs which also wish to pursue franchising may do so – but they should commit to implementing Enhanced Partnerships in the meantime until the franchising process, which can be lengthy, is complete. LTAs which are not mayoral combined authorities and wish to pursue franchising will need to satisfy the Secretary of State that they have the capability and resources to do so, and that it will better deliver service improvements for passengers."

Clock is ticking and I can't seem to find any mention of it in any NECA meetings.


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busmanT



921
01 Jun 2021, 11:04 pm #55
(26 May 2021, 7:51 am)Adrian Is anyone aware of any updates to this for Tyne and Wear (or elsewhere in the North East)? Page 11 of the strategy states:

"By the end of June 2021, we expect all LTAs, except MCAs which have started the statutory process of franchising bus services, to commit to establishing Enhanced Partnerships across their entire areas under the Bus Services Act, and all operators to co-operate with the LTA throughout the process. LTAs which also wish to pursue franchising may do so – but they should commit to implementing Enhanced Partnerships in the meantime until the franchising process, which can be lengthy, is complete. LTAs which  are not mayoral combined authorities and wish to pursue franchising will need to satisfy the Secretary of State that they have the capability and resources to do so, and that it will better deliver service improvements for passengers."

Clock is ticking and I can't seem to find any mention of it in any NECA meetings.
By the end of June they only need to have decided which way to proceed (enhanced partnership or franchising) and published a statutory notice to that effect
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk...rators.pdf
busmanT
01 Jun 2021, 11:04 pm #55

(26 May 2021, 7:51 am)Adrian Is anyone aware of any updates to this for Tyne and Wear (or elsewhere in the North East)? Page 11 of the strategy states:

"By the end of June 2021, we expect all LTAs, except MCAs which have started the statutory process of franchising bus services, to commit to establishing Enhanced Partnerships across their entire areas under the Bus Services Act, and all operators to co-operate with the LTA throughout the process. LTAs which also wish to pursue franchising may do so – but they should commit to implementing Enhanced Partnerships in the meantime until the franchising process, which can be lengthy, is complete. LTAs which  are not mayoral combined authorities and wish to pursue franchising will need to satisfy the Secretary of State that they have the capability and resources to do so, and that it will better deliver service improvements for passengers."

Clock is ticking and I can't seem to find any mention of it in any NECA meetings.
By the end of June they only need to have decided which way to proceed (enhanced partnership or franchising) and published a statutory notice to that effect
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk...rators.pdf

Adrian



9,566
02 Jun 2021, 3:06 pm #56
(01 Jun 2021, 11:04 pm)busmanT By the end of June they only need to have decided which way to proceed (enhanced partnership or franchising) and published a statutory notice to that effect
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk...rators.pdf

Although I believe this would normally need to be approved by the NECA Joint Transport Committee, as I don't think Nexus would have the delegation to make that decision alone?

There's a reference in a report to the NECA Leadership Board meeting next week, but nothing published for the Joint Transport Committee yet. Their only June meeting listed is an AGM.

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Adrian
02 Jun 2021, 3:06 pm #56

(01 Jun 2021, 11:04 pm)busmanT By the end of June they only need to have decided which way to proceed (enhanced partnership or franchising) and published a statutory notice to that effect
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk...rators.pdf

Although I believe this would normally need to be approved by the NECA Joint Transport Committee, as I don't think Nexus would have the delegation to make that decision alone?

There's a reference in a report to the NECA Leadership Board meeting next week, but nothing published for the Joint Transport Committee yet. Their only June meeting listed is an AGM.


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Adrian



9,566
08 Jun 2021, 4:16 pm #57
(02 Jun 2021, 3:06 pm)Adrian Although I believe this would normally need to be approved by the NECA Joint Transport Committee, as I don't think Nexus would have the delegation to make that decision alone?

There's a reference in a report to the NECA Leadership Board meeting next week, but nothing published for the Joint Transport Committee yet. Their only June meeting listed is an AGM.

Joint Transport Committee June 15th meeting agenda published - https://northeastca.gov.uk/wp-content/up...a-Pack.pdf

Page 49 onwards (Agenda item 9) is of relevance to this thread.

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Adrian
08 Jun 2021, 4:16 pm #57

(02 Jun 2021, 3:06 pm)Adrian Although I believe this would normally need to be approved by the NECA Joint Transport Committee, as I don't think Nexus would have the delegation to make that decision alone?

There's a reference in a report to the NECA Leadership Board meeting next week, but nothing published for the Joint Transport Committee yet. Their only June meeting listed is an AGM.

Joint Transport Committee June 15th meeting agenda published - https://northeastca.gov.uk/wp-content/up...a-Pack.pdf

Page 49 onwards (Agenda item 9) is of relevance to this thread.


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