Before 2019, GNE predominantly purchased WrightBus bodied vehicles as well as a few Optares. But recent single & double decker orders have shifted towards ADL (97, X30, originally 'intended' X1 order but now Derwentside & Hexham).
Were the new batch of StreetDecks in the pipeline before MG arrived or after? Also, what was the reasoning behind ordering 3x E400MMCs initially for the X30 rather than low height StreetDecks across the board?
(02 Aug 2020, 9:49 pm)L469 YVK wrote [ -> ]Before 2019, GNE predominantly purchased WrightBus bodied vehicles as well as a few Optares. But recent single & double decker orders have shifted towards ADL (97, X30, originally 'intended' X1 order but now Derwentside & Hexham).
Were the new batch of StreetDecks in the pipeline before MG arrived or after? Also, what was the reasoning behind ordering 3x E400MMCs initially for the X30 rather than low height StreetDecks across the board?
Probably nothing more sinister than to trial the two types against one another.
(02 Aug 2020, 9:49 pm)L469 YVK wrote [ -> ]Before 2019, GNE predominantly purchased WrightBus bodied vehicles as well as a few Optares. But recent single & double decker orders have shifted towards ADL (97, X30, originally 'intended' X1 order but now Derwentside & Hexham).
Were the new batch of StreetDecks in the pipeline before MG arrived or after? Also, what was the reasoning behind ordering 3x E400MMCs initially for the X30 rather than low height StreetDecks across the board?
I believe they answered that question during one of the Facebook Lives.
The reason for going with the E400s over the low height StreetDecks was that the E400s offered better headroom inside than the equivalent height StreetDecks.
Sent from my LM-G710 using Tapatalk
(02 Aug 2020, 9:49 pm)L469 YVK wrote [ -> ]Before 2019, GNE predominantly purchased WrightBus bodied vehicles as well as a few Optares. But recent single & double decker orders have shifted towards ADL (97, X30, originally 'intended' X1 order but now Derwentside & Hexham).
Were the new batch of StreetDecks in the pipeline before MG arrived or after? Also, what was the reasoning behind ordering 3x E400MMCs initially for the X30 rather than low height StreetDecks across the board?
I think MG preferred ADL to Wrightbus. The 3 E400s were a shift to more ADL products and similarly E200s were ordered to get away from rattly streetlites. All of these were announced before Wright entered administration in September, but the 15 new E400s were ordered after administration, most likely because they wanted to get the new buses quicker and because of the uncertainty of the future of Wrightbus at the time.
(02 Aug 2020, 10:10 pm)Adtrainsam wrote [ -> ]I think MG preferred ADL to Wrightbus. The 3 E400s were a shift to more ADL products and similarly E200s were ordered to get away from rattly streetlites. All of these were announced before Wright entered administration in September, but the 15 new E400s were ordered after administration, most likely because they wanted to get the new buses quicker and because of the uncertainty of the future of Wrightbus at the time.
Yeah, now that Wrightbus are back up and running, I can see them going back to them for the next batch of double deckers, but sticking with ADL for the single deckers. While I obviously haven't been on the new StreetDecks so can't say what the quality is like, I still think the 67 plate StreetDecks feel nicer better than the E400s on the X30.
To me, ADL vehicles always have a cheap plastic feel about them, which isn't helped by the use of glossy plastic everywhere!
(02 Aug 2020, 10:19 pm)streetdeckfan wrote [ -> ]Yeah, now that Wrightbus are back up and running, I can see them going back to them for the next batch of double deckers, but sticking with ADL for the single deckers. While I obviously haven't been on the new StreetDecks so can't say what the quality is like, I still think the 67 plate StreetDecks feel nicer better than the E400s on the X30.
To me, ADL vehicles always have a cheap plastic feel about them, which isn't helped by the use of glossy plastic everywhere!
Bodywork wise, WrightBus are streets ahead. But mechanically, ADL have got the E400 pretty spot on. Only bad E400 examples (both classic & MMC) I've seen are Arriva's 57 reg examples that Blyth & Redcar got their hands on.
I think the StreetDeck has come on quality wise and WrightBus are listening by producing a 6 cylinder example for more heavy duty type work.
Will GNE's OM936 example come with a Voith or ZF gearbox? Also, will it come with stop-start?
(02 Aug 2020, 10:44 pm)L469 YVK wrote [ -> ]Bodywork wise, WrightBus are streets ahead. But mechanically, ADL have got the E400 pretty spot on. Only bad E400 examples (both classic & MMC) I've seen are Arriva's 57 reg examples that Blyth & Redcar got their hands on.
I think the StreetDeck has come on quality wise and WrightBus are listening by producing a 6 cylinder example for more heavy duty type work.
Will GNE's OM936 example come with a Voith or ZF gearbox? Also, will it come with stop-start?
Yeah, the only thing that lets the StreetDeck down is the mechanics. But to be honest, to me it doesn't feel like a lack of power, they're just not geared for the higher speed roads that routes like the X21 need.
On stop-start routes like the Angel, I think the StreetDeck is pretty much spot on. A 6 cylinder would be overkill.
I haven't had a chance to try the StreetDecks out on the Red Kite services yet, but I'd imagine they'll do just fine there as well, even if they struggle a little bit on some of the banks
(02 Aug 2020, 9:49 pm)L469 YVK wrote [ -> ]Before 2019, GNE predominantly purchased WrightBus bodied vehicles as well as a few Optares. But recent single & double decker orders have shifted towards ADL (97, X30, originally 'intended' X1 order but now Derwentside & Hexham).
Were the new batch of StreetDecks in the pipeline before MG arrived or after? Also, what was the reasoning behind ordering 3x E400MMCs initially for the X30 rather than low height StreetDecks across the board?
To be honest there's been a general trend of the industry moving away from Wright. Build quality went to pot a number of years ago now, and you quickly saw First and Arriva move away, followed by the likes of Go Ahead, and now even Transdev and Lothian.
Then if you begin to look into the products - single deck you have an E200 with superior build quality compared to a Streetlite which *still* has build quality issues nearly a decade in. Then the E400 has that 6.7L Cummins engine which has proven itself over and over as a very reliable unit, in comparison to a smaller and less proven Daimler unit in the Streetdeck.
Bamford Bus is also still a relatively unknown quantity - if a company is spending millions on a batch of buses do they want build quality they can trust with ADL, or not really know what's going to turn up (if it turns up!) with Wright?
I think it says it all really when you've got Transdev Blazefield going for E400s as their next double deck order over the Wright product.
(02 Aug 2020, 11:02 pm)mb134 wrote [ -> ]To be honest there's been a general trend of the industry moving away from Wright. Build quality went to pot a number of years ago now, and you quickly saw First and Arriva move away, followed by the likes of Go Ahead, and now even Transdev and Lothian.
Funnily enough, Arriva ordered StreetDecks for the 110 in Yorkshire. Wouldn't surprise me in the future IF they order that the Blyth routes would get these but perhaps not.
Will be interesting to see of Arriva will go back to ZF gearboxes if they order new E400MMCs with stop-start now available for ZF.
(02 Aug 2020, 11:02 pm)mb134 wrote [ -> ]To be honest there's been a general trend of the industry moving away from Wright. Build quality went to pot a number of years ago now, and you quickly saw First and Arriva move away, followed by the likes of Go Ahead, and now even Transdev and Lothian.
Then if you begin to look into the products - single deck you have an E200 with superior build quality compared to a Streetlite which *still* has build quality issues nearly a decade in. Then the E400 has that 6.7L Cummins engine which has proven itself over and over as a very reliable unit, in comparison to a smaller and less proven Daimler unit in the Streetdeck.
Bamford Bus is also still a relatively unknown quantity - if a company is spending millions on a batch of buses do they want build quality they can trust with ADL, or not really know what's going to turn up (if it turns up!) with Wright?
I think it says it all really when you've got Transdev Blazefield going for E400s as their next double deck order over the Wright product.
Hasn't Volvo now stopped supplying Wright for any new vehicles so the B5TL is no longer available with them so they had to change vehicles anyway. I could be wrong but this could be the main reason they've pulled away in a similar sense that Arriva may have moved since there's no longer a DAF/VDL combo available. Sure I read that somewhere, apoligies if not true.
If it's true about Volvo be interesting to see what Lothian purchase as their whole fleet is Volvo.
It's a shame that Scania pulled out the UK with the Omnicity (Citywide) they were ideal for longer routes instead of Streetlites where a DD wasn't needed.
(02 Aug 2020, 11:02 pm)mb134 wrote [ -> ]To be honest there's been a general trend of the industry moving away from Wright. Build quality went to pot a number of years ago now, and you quickly saw First and Arriva move away, followed by the likes of Go Ahead, and now even Transdev and Lothian.
Then if you begin to look into the products - single deck you have an E200 with superior build quality compared to a Streetlite which *still* has build quality issues nearly a decade in. Then the E400 has that 6.7L Cummins engine which has proven itself over and over as a very reliable unit, in comparison to a smaller and less proven Daimler unit in the Streetdeck.
Bamford Bus is also still a relatively unknown quantity - if a company is spending millions on a batch of buses do they want build quality they can trust with ADL, or not really know what's going to turn up (if it turns up!) with Wright?
I think it says it all really when you've got Transdev Blazefield going for E400s as their next double deck order over the Wright product.
I disagree that the E200 has 'superior build quality' compared to the Streetlite, sure, the Streetlite has a rattly door, but the E200 feels like it's make from the thinnest, cheapest plastic they could find, with just about every panel creaking, and don't even get me started on the windows.
The Streetlite feels like it's been well screwed together with the exception of the emergency door, and even still on Arriva's examples that isn't even an issue.
I would also disagree with your implication the StreetDecks are unreliable. They're not. They're some of the most reliable vehicles in GNE's fleet.
Did Transdev go with E400s because they wanted to, or because they had no choice? There's a big difference
(02 Aug 2020, 11:12 pm)L469 YVK wrote [ -> ]Funnily enough, Arriva ordered StreetDecks for the 110 in Yorkshire. Wouldn't surprise me in the future IF they order that the Blyth routes would get these but perhaps not.
Will be interesting to see of Arriva will go back to ZF gearboxes if they order new E400MMCs with stop-start now available for ZF.
Aye that was a surprising one - I can't quite remember but was that one of the routes they trialled the demo on? Mind it wouldn't shock me if they only got them because they got a reasonably good deal from Wright's at the time when they were desperate for cash.
To be honest I've never minded Alexander bodied stuff, and while I preferred the Gemini 1/2 to the ALX400 (though not by much), I find the original E400 about on par to the Gem 2 and both the E400 classic and MMC streets ahead of the Gem3/Streetdeck. The Eclipse Pulsar/Solar/Urban line of single deck bodies surpassed any single deck Alexander body for me though.
(02 Aug 2020, 11:17 pm)Storx wrote [ -> ]Hasn't Volvo now stopped supplying Wright for any new vehicles so the B5TL is no longer available with them so they had to change vehicles anyway. I could be wrong but this could be the main reason they've pulled away in a similar sense that Arriva may have moved since there's no longer a DAF/VDL combo available. Sure I read that somewhere, apoligies if not true.
If it's true about Volvo be interesting to see what Lothian purchase as their whole fleet is Volvo.
It's a shame that Scania pulled out the UK with the Omnicity (Citywide) they were ideal for longer routes instead of Streetlites where a DD wasn't needed.
According to both Wrightbus and Volvo's websites they'e still working together, so if they have stopped supplying they don't seem to have made it public.
(02 Aug 2020, 11:20 pm)streetdeckfan wrote [ -> ]I disagree that the E200 has 'superior build quality' compared to the Streetlite, sure, the Streetlite has a rattly door, but the E200 feels like it's make from the thinnest, cheapest plastic they could find, with just about every panel creaking, and don't even get me started on the windows.
The Streetlite feels like it's been well screwed together with the exception of the emergency door, and even still on Arriva's examples that isn't even an issue.
I would also disagree with your implication the StreetDecks are unreliable. They're not. They're some of the most reliable vehicles in GNE's fleet.
Did Transdev go with E400s because they wanted to, or because they had no choice? There's a big difference
I've always found the E200 MMC a far better vehicle in general than the Streetlite. For GNE, their E200s are light-years ahead of their Streetlites in terms of atmosphere, comfort and build quality. Likewise with First, their Streetlites feel like they're about to fall apart any moment whereas their E200s I've been on have been very solid and much more pleasant places to be.
I didn't say the Streetdeck was unreliable, I simply stated that the Cummins engine in the E400 has proven itself constantly across all sorts of routes for any number of companies. Compare that to how many Damiler powered Streetdecks are running around, then tell me that you can say the Streetdeck is as proven as the E400 (especially considering the earlier GNE examples).
Don't see why they wouldn't have the choice of Wright, they must have be desperate to get any order they could - I'd say it's likely Hornby acknowledging that the E400 is a bloody good product.
(02 Aug 2020, 11:30 pm)mb134 wrote [ -> ]I've always found the E200 MMC a far better vehicle in general than the Streetlite. For GNE, their E200s are light-years ahead of their Streetlites in terms of atmosphere, comfort and build quality. Likewise with First, their Streetlites feel like they're about to fall apart any moment whereas their E200s I've been on have been very solid and much more pleasant places to be.
I didn't say the Streetdeck was unreliable, I simply stated that the Cummins engine in the E400 has proven itself constantly across all sorts of routes for any number of companies. Compare that to how many Damiler powered Streetdecks are running around, then tell me that you can say the Streetdeck is as proven as the E400 (especially considering the earlier GNE examples).
Don't see why they wouldn't have the choice of Wright, they must have be desperate to get any order they could - I'd say it's likely Hornby acknowledging that the E400 is a bloody good product.
The only parts of the E200 I'd say I prefer over the Streetlite is the ride quality (it seems slightly smoother), and the engine noise (it's a lower pitch). Other than that, I think the StreetLite feels nicer, it feels more open.
I can't get the statistics for the ADL products, but it's not as if there's only a few vehicles with the OM934 knocking about. There are over 500 StreetDecks currently registered so I think it's fair to say it is pretty proven, if not at the scale of the Cummins.
The thing is, if they needed new vehicles this year, the only 'real' option was ADL, Wrightbus are still recovering, and if they're even taking orders there's probably a huge backlog they need to clear first so it'd be doubtful any vehicles would arrive this year.
(02 Aug 2020, 11:20 pm)mb134 wrote [ -> ]Aye that was a surprising one - I can't quite remember but was that one of the routes they trialled the demo on? Mind it wouldn't shock me if they only got them because they got a reasonably good deal from Wright's at the time when they were desperate for cash.
To be honest I've never minded Alexander bodied stuff, and while I preferred the Gemini 1/2 to the ALX400 (though not by much), I find the original E400 about on par to the Gem 2 and both the E400 classic and MMC streets ahead of the Gem3/Streetdeck. The Eclipse Pulsar/Solar/Urban line of single deck bodies surpassed any single deck Alexander body for me though.
The E400 isn't on par with the Gemini 2. That's ridiculous, I remember when I used to overlook PDIs on new E400s coming to a London company and the number of faults there were was just ridiculous, such as window seals loose, misaligned body panels etc. The company switched to Gemini 2s which is a far better product, there is literally no comparison.
Also, GNE isn't going to order 40 plus £200,000 vehicles only because they got a good deal notwithstanding the quality of the product they are purchasing. No company does that, its just not good business. The MMC isn't that great that's the thing, its just the quality of the earlier Gemini 3 models has been highlighted, but at the time when quality was being highlighted they were still getting orders all across the country.
Transdev cancelled their order for Streetdecks for the same reason a number of companies did which was the uncertainty at Wright, but with them back up and running again, their order book is nearly full. Diamond has taken on the first of 128 Streetdecks and 35 Streetlites.
(02 Aug 2020, 11:30 pm)mb134 wrote [ -> ]I've always found the E200 MMC a far better vehicle in general than the Streetlite. For GNE, their E200s are light-years ahead of their Streetlites in terms of atmosphere, comfort and build quality. Likewise with First, their Streetlites feel like they're about to fall apart any moment whereas their E200s I've been on have been very solid and much more pleasant places to be.
I didn't say the Streetdeck was unreliable, I simply stated that the Cummins engine in the E400 has proven itself constantly across all sorts of routes for any number of companies. Compare that to how many Damiler powered Streetdecks are running around, then tell me that you can say the Streetdeck is as proven as the E400 (especially considering the earlier GNE examples).
Don't see why they wouldn't have the choice of Wright, they must have be desperate to get any order they could - I'd say it's likely Hornby acknowledging that the E400 is a bloody good product.
The E200 isn't much better than the Streetlite however, they're both pretty rubbish buses if you ask me. The build quality on E200s is just about the same as on the Streetlites.
Of course, the E400 is going to be more proven as you put it, the Cummins engine has been used for over 20 years compared to 6 on the Streetdeck, those stats are nothing to go by. If the E400 was so full proof and the Streetdeck not as good, then it simply wouldn't get as many orders as it does. Look at the Metrodecker Diesel model. Less than 10 in its 6-year production.
It was reported that Transdev cancelled their order regarding the uncertainty of Wright.
In my experience as a driver and other things, Wright bus is the far better bodybuilder and had they stuck with VDL they wouldn't have gotten many more orders as VDL buses are supplied directly through Arriva Bus & Truck. But the VDL is a really good product.
(02 Aug 2020, 11:17 pm)Storx wrote [ -> ]Hasn't Volvo now stopped supplying Wright for any new vehicles so the B5TL is no longer available with them so they had to change vehicles anyway. I could be wrong but this could be the main reason they've pulled away in a similar sense that Arriva may have moved since there's no longer a DAF/VDL combo available. Sure I read that somewhere, apoligies if not true.
If it's true about Volvo be interesting to see what Lothian purchase as their whole fleet is Volvo.
It's a shame that Scania pulled out the UK with the Omnicity (Citywide) they were ideal for longer routes instead of Streetlites where a DD wasn't needed.
Volvo and Wright are still working together, its the ADL E400 B5TL That has been dropped for whatever reason.
(03 Aug 2020, 10:44 am)Big O wrote [ -> ]Volvo and Wright are still working together, its the ADL E400 B5TL That has been dropped for whatever reason.
Incorrect there, Lothian are expecting some ADL-bodied Volvo B5TLs in the future (somewhat delayed due to the current situation but they are still expecting them) along with some B8RLEs with ADL bodywork due sometime this year - they dropped Wrightbus as a body supplier after the shocking quality of the 2018 batch of B5TLs for the main fleet (which were rattling and falling apart within weeks of entering service). And their small batch of Streetair Electrics have already been withdrawn due to reliability issues along with the fact they are too small for the majority of the routes including one of their planned home routes.
The simple fact is this, ADL have made major improvements to their range with the move to Euro6 and have expanded their order books by being able to offer body production at two separate sites (both E200MMCs and E400MMCs are built at Scarborough and Falkirk - Stagecoach's examples in the North East are all Falkirk-built examples, Go North East and Arriva's are Scarborough) while Wright effectively turned away from what made them the successful company by building bodywork on chassis from other companies to following Optare into effectively making integral vehicles (of course, Wright's are still chassis and body unlike Optare's completely integral construction) and the decision to move away from Cummins to Daimler for Euro6 hasn't really helped with that.
(03 Aug 2020, 10:33 am)Big O wrote [ -> ]The E400 isn't on par with the Gemini 2. That's ridiculous, I remember when I used to overlook PDIs on new E400s coming to a London company and the number of faults there were was just ridiculous, such as window seals loose, misaligned body panels etc. The company switched to Gemini 2s which is a far better product, there is literally no comparison.
Also, GNE isn't going to order 40 plus £200,000 vehicles only because they got a good deal notwithstanding the quality of the product they are purchasing. No company does that, its just not good business. The MMC isn't that great that's the thing, its just the quality of the earlier Gemini 3 models has been highlighted, but at the time when quality was being highlighted they were still getting orders all across the country.
Transdev cancelled their order for Streetdecks for the same reason a number of companies did which was the uncertainty at Wright, but with them back up and running again, their order book is nearly full. Diamond has taken on the first of 128 Streetdecks and 35 Streetlites.
The E200 isn't much better than the Streetlite however, they're both pretty rubbish buses if you ask me. The build quality on E200s is just about the same as on the Streetlites.
Of course, the E400 is going to be more proven as you put it, the Cummins engine has been used for over 20 years compared to 6 on the Streetdeck, those stats are nothing to go by. If the E400 was so full proof and the Streetdeck not as good, then it simply wouldn't get as many orders as it does. Look at the Metrodecker Diesel model. Less than 10 in its 6-year production.
To be honest I've been on Gemini 2s with faults of a similar standard to those you report on the original E400 - possibly due to the company, but there are a number of Gemini 2s that I've been on that have been a worse experience than an E400. A faultless Gemini 2 (take pretty much any GNE example), is better than an average E400 though for sure.
I'd argue that companies were purchasing Wright products more due to price than quality for a number of years. We all know how shoddy the Streetlite was, and the first few Streetdeck batches - if, as you say, companies were only considering build quality then there's not a chance they'd be going with Wright. I've got no idea how you don't rate the MMC as a product, everything about them looks and feels the part.
I'm not sure the "look at the Metrodecker" argument holds up - nobody was buying Optare bodied double deck products in huge quantities beforehand anyway. On the other hand, Wright had a huge share of the double deck market - and were partnering with Volvo. The E400 has, largely, used the same running gear for over a decade now and not only is it reliable, it means that operators get a better understanding of maintenance and how to keep the things running well.
I think a point often overlooked is Stagecoach's reliance upon the E400. Despite Souters obvious interest, if ADL were churning out substandard products then Stagecoach would absolutely place an order with someone else until they sorted themselves out.
(03 Aug 2020, 10:58 am)Kuyoyo wrote [ -> ]Incorrect there, Lothian are expecting some ADL-bodied Volvo B5TLs in the future (somewhat delayed due to the current situation but they are still expecting them) along with some B8RLEs with ADL bodywork due sometime this year - they dropped Wrightbus as a body supplier after the shocking quality of the 2018 batch of B5TLs for the main fleet (which were rattling and falling apart within weeks of entering service). And their small batch of Streetair Electrics have already been withdrawn due to reliability issues along with the fact they are too small for the majority of the routes including one of their planned home routes.
The simple fact is this, ADL have made major improvements to their range with the move to Euro6 and have expanded their order books by being able to offer body production at two separate sites (both E200MMCs and E400MMCs are built at Scarborough and Falkirk - Stagecoach's examples in the North East are all Falkirk-built examples, Go North East and Arriva's are Scarborough) while Wright effectively turned away from what made them the successful company by building bodywork on chassis from other companies to following Optare into effectively making integral vehicles (of course, Wright's are still chassis and body unlike Optare's completely integral construction) and the decision to move away from Cummins to Daimler for Euro6 hasn't really helped with that.
I used to slate ADL heavily as you quite well remember Kuyoyo. But they have improved massively Euro 5 and above. The older Dennis Tridents weren't the best but the E400 as a whole been pretty much spot on.
Depending on logistics, I'd love to see GNE give the E400MMC (either 69 reg or 20/70 reg) a proper fair crack of the whip on the X9/X10, with the OM936 after an initial period transferred to Hexham with 6336 or 6337 covering at Consett.
Arriva's newer classic examples handle the X15 ok I believe although the X9 & X10 is a bit more foot to the floor.
(03 Aug 2020, 10:44 am)Big O wrote [ -> ]Volvo and Wright are still working together, its the ADL E400 B5TL That has been dropped for whatever reason.
I could be wrong, I heard it was with the administration process Volvo didn't get paid so they refused to work with them. Obviously rumours could be wrong.
(03 Aug 2020, 12:24 pm)mb134 wrote [ -> ]To be honest I've been on Gemini 2s with faults of a similar standard to those you report on the original E400 - possibly due to the company, but there are a number of Gemini 2s that I've been on that have been a worse experience than an E400. A faultless Gemini 2 (take pretty much any GNE example), is better than an average E400 though for sure.
I'd argue that companies were purchasing Wright products more due to price than quality for a number of years. We all know how shoddy the Streetlite was, and the first few Streetdeck batches - if, as you say, companies were only considering build quality then there's not a chance they'd be going with Wright. I've got no idea how you don't rate the MMC as a product, everything about them looks and feels the part.
I'm not sure the "look at the Metrodecker" argument holds up - nobody was buying Optare bodied double deck products in huge quantities beforehand anyway. On the other hand, Wright had a huge share of the double deck market - and were partnering with Volvo. The E400 has, largely, used the same running gear for over a decade now and not only is it reliable, it means that operators get a better understanding of maintenance and how to keep the things running well.
I think a point often overlooked is Stagecoach's reliance upon the E400. Despite Souters obvious interest, if ADL were churning out substandard products then Stagecoach would absolutely place an order with someone else until they sorted themselves out.
That's very debatable, there was a hell of a lot East Lanc Deckers around with the millenium body and also lots of Scania Omnidekka's (it's predecessor) both which were East Lancs products. Remember Optare was bought over by East Lancs not vice versa who renamed the whole group Optare. It's sad to see the demise of East Lancs to pretty much nothing while they continued Optare buses which bar minibuses never really sold.
(03 Aug 2020, 2:22 pm)Storx wrote [ -> ]That's very debatable, there was a hell of a lot East Lanc Deckers around with the millenium body and also lots of Scania Omnidekka's (it's predecessor) both which were East Lancs products. Remember Optare was bought over by East Lancs not vice versa who renamed the whole group Optare. It's sad to see the demise of East Lancs to pretty much nothing while they continued Optare buses which bar minibuses never really sold.
I was more meaning closer to the time of the Metrodecker launch - Wright were still going strong with the Gemini 2 right up until it was discontinued, while I don't recall an awful lot of orders for any ELC/Optare bodied deckers in the early 2010s. Must admit although I generally liked the East Lancs styling, their build quality was always pretty shoddy.
(03 Aug 2020, 2:22 pm)Storx wrote [ -> ]I could be wrong, I heard it was with the administration process Volvo didn't get paid so they refused to work with them. Obviously rumours could be wrong.
No idea if its true, but I've seen a few reports of Wright pushing customers towards integrals when they were enquiring about B8RLEs with Wright bodies. Obviously it's more money for Wright selling a full bus than just whacking a body on, so it certainly seems plausible given the money issues a few years back. As you say though, rumours can be wrong!
(03 Aug 2020, 12:24 pm)mb134 wrote [ -> ]To be honest I've been on Gemini 2s with faults of a similar standard to those you report on the original E400 - possibly due to the company, but there are a number of Gemini 2s that I've been on that have been a worse experience than an E400. A faultless Gemini 2 (take pretty much any GNE example), is better than an average E400 though for sure.
I'd argue that companies were purchasing Wright products more due to price than quality for a number of years. We all know how shoddy the Streetlite was, and the first few Streetdeck batches - if, as you say, companies were only considering build quality then there's not a chance they'd be going with Wright. I've got no idea how you don't rate the MMC as a product, everything about them looks and feels the part.
I'm not sure the "look at the Metrodecker" argument holds up - nobody was buying Optare bodied double deck products in huge quantities beforehand anyway. On the other hand, Wright had a huge share of the double deck market - and were partnering with Volvo. The E400 has, largely, used the same running gear for over a decade now and not only is it reliable, it means that operators get a better understanding of maintenance and how to keep the things running well.
I think a point often overlooked is Stagecoach's reliance upon the E400. Despite Souters obvious interest, if ADL were churning out substandard products then Stagecoach would absolutely place an order with someone else until they sorted themselves out.
I thoroughly disagree that MMCs look and feel the part. They don't!
Inside they look and feel cheap. The plastics they use are horrendous, it feels like they went with the cheapest they could. The fact they decided to go with glossy plastic for just about everything doesn't help, as once it gets scuffed it looks even worse.
They also creak, a lot. Probably down to the cheapness of the plastics rubbing against eachother. I don't know about you, but I'd sooner have a bus go a bit rattly after a few years than creak from new.
Then there's the quick release glass, fantastic idea, but horrendous in practice. It feels like the windows aren't even attached. You can physically see them moving when you go over a bump, they also creak and rattle. Dan mentioned that they just need adjusting, but either they haven't yet or it didn't work.
The only way I can think of to explain it is ADL products feel like they're made of Mega Bloks whilst Wrightbus feel like Lego. One cheap and made for kids, the other actually a good quality product.
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As a driver I would say the Wright build quality is fairly good. The 56 B9's are relatively rattle free and the ex London dual door B7's are fairly decent considering their ages. That said when I was at Arriva I though the Wright Gemini dockers on the X12 were miles ahead of the Sapphire E400. The only thing the Wright dockers needed was a higher top speed however if my memory serves me right, there was one that wasn't limited to 50mph.
Fast forward to more modern Wright products and we end up at the Streetlite. I (unpopular opinion coming up) enjoy driving them. Acceleration is good and on start stop town work they are in a league of their own. The Drifter examples have a higher top speed than all the others at Deptford (58mph instead of the usual 50mph) which was handy when allocated to the X6/7. Streelites also climb hills well and probably better than anything else I've driven. The only downside is the poor build quality (rattles and squeaks) plus I've found the Daimler engined ones to have a particular bad idle (akin to the ex London E200 at Belmont). I would happily take a streetlite over a Citaro. I think the Mercs which have power are not a nice drive and the handbrake location is just ridiculous, no matter how I sit, I have to stretch forward to apply and release it. Apart from the horrific rattles, the ex London E200 at Belmont also tick all the boxes for me as a driver, Acceleration and top speed, smoothness of brakes and retarder (i challenge you to find me a smoother vehicle in terms of braking), gear changes were smooth and responsive plus good visibility from the cab and decent handling. The only E200MMC I've sampled are a couple of Stagecoach examples and they seem well put together compared with a Streetlite.
The only new Optares I've driven are the Sunderland Connect examples and they came preloaded with rattles and emissions lights. My theory is the bigger the Optare the worse it is to drive and having driven Belmonts Tempos my theory so far seems to be right. I do wonder what the double deck Optare is like to drive.
In the modern world however it appears buying a bus is based around emissions and fuel economy and now i'd also add the actual fuel used to power the vehicle itself. I'm a big fan (both as a passenger and enthusiast) of the Stagecoach gas powered Scanias in Sunderland but it remains to be seen if gas is the way forward.
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(04 Aug 2020, 9:06 am)morritt89 wrote [ -> ]As a driver I would say the Wright build quality is fairly good. The 56 B9's are relatively rattle free and the ex London dual door B7's are fairly decent considering their ages. That said when I was at Arriva I though the Wright Gemini dockers on the X12 were miles ahead of the Sapphire E400. The only thing the Wright dockers needed was a higher top speed however if my memory serves me right, there was one that wasn't limited to 50mph.
Fast forward to more modern Wright products and we end up at the Streetlite. I (unpopular opinion coming up) enjoy driving them. Acceleration is good and on start stop town work they are in a league of their own. The Drifter examples have a higher top speed than all the others at Deptford (58mph instead of the usual 50mph) which was handy when allocated to the X6/7. Streelites also climb hills well and probably better than anything else I've driven. The only downside is the poor build quality (rattles and squeaks) plus I've found the Daimler engined ones to have a particular bad idle (akin to the ex London E200 at Belmont). I would happily take a streetlite over a Citaro. I think the Mercs which have power are not a nice drive and the handbrake location is just ridiculous, no matter how I sit, I have to stretch forward to apply and release it. Apart from the horrific rattles, the ex London E200 at Belmont also tick all the boxes for me as a driver, Acceleration and top speed, smoothness of brakes and retarder (i challenge you to find me a smoother vehicle in terms of braking), gear changes were smooth and responsive plus good visibility from the cab and decent handling. The only E200MMC I've sampled are a couple of Stagecoach examples and they seem well put together compared with a Streetlite.
The only new Optares I've driven are the Sunderland Connect examples and they came preloaded with rattles and emissions lights. My theory is the bigger the Optare the worse it is to drive and having driven Belmonts Tempos my theory so far seems to be right. I do wonder what the double deck Optare is like to drive.
In the modern world however it appears buying a bus is based around emissions and fuel economy and now i'd also add the actual fuel used to power the vehicle itself. I'm a big fan (both as a passenger and enthusiast) of the Stagecoach gas powered Scanias in Sunderland but it remains to be seen if gas is the way forward.
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The original Wright badged vehicles GNE had (the handybus), didn't seem to last 2mins.
Not sure if they were allocated to the wrong routes or if there was another reason.
Ditto the Optare Excels, which was strange as the quality of the Deltas before them, seemed to shine through.
(04 Aug 2020, 9:06 am)morritt89 wrote [ -> ]Fast forward to more modern Wright products and we end up at the Streetlite. I (unpopular opinion coming up) enjoy driving them. Acceleration is good and on start stop town work they are in a league of their own. The Drifter examples have a higher top speed than all the others at Deptford (58mph instead of the usual 50mph) which was handy when allocated to the X6/7. Streelites also climb hills well and probably better than anything else I've driven. The only downside is the poor build quality (rattles and squeaks) plus I've found the Daimler engined ones to have a particular bad idle (akin to the ex London E200 at Belmont).
It's an unpopular opinion which I share broadly similar views to you on!
It takes a particular skill to drive the Streetlites, I think, as they're very unique in the way that they do have some odd gear changes. That said it's possible to control them providing you react to the gearbox, and actually benefit from the kickdown to get the extra power you need on a hill, rather than keeping your foot planted to the floor.
It always fascinates me how fast and nimble they are, and how it feels like you're driving quite a small vehicle (especially compared to something like a Citaro, which feels huge and a bit of a chore to drive at times, especially if you get a bad one!) The brakes on them are also perfect for me, compared to other buses (Citaros, Solos, etc).
If the Streetlites had the creature comforts of air con and such that other buses such as Citaros do, and less of the odd gear changes, I think they'd be a lot more popular.
(04 Aug 2020, 1:05 pm)Dan wrote [ -> ]It's an unpopular opinion which I share broadly similar views to you on!
It takes a particular skill to drive the Streetlites, I think, as they're very unique in the way that they do have some odd gear changes. That said it's possible to control them providing you react to the gearbox, and actually benefit from the kickdown to get the extra power you need on a hill, rather than keeping your foot planted to the floor.
It always fascinates me how fast and nimble they are, and how it feels like you're driving quite a small vehicle (especially compared to something like a Citaro, which feels huge and a bit of a chore to drive at times, especially if you get a bad one!) The brakes on them are also perfect for me, compared to other buses (Citaros, Solos, etc).
If the Streetlites had the creature comforts of air con and such that other buses such as Citaros do, and less of the odd gear changes, I think they'd be a lot more popular.
I agree as well to be fair, a good Streetlite is a joy to drive, 5375 is currently my favourite bus to drive at Deptford, it's fast, the A/C blows cold, it's quite rattly but I don't actually care on a hot day and I've got a cool fast bus.
People do seem to focus on Streetlites more than anything else though, every type of bus I've driven has had bad and good examples. Look at Citaros 5337/5338 are absolutely awful to spend 4 hours on due to the rattles on them, but get 5336, or 5358 I ended up with on Rail Replacement a few weeks ago and they're really nice to drive. Buses are hand built vehicles that lead a tough life, and it just makes them all so variable that it isn't always just down to whether they're made by Wrightbus, ADL, or even Mercedes-Benz.
(04 Aug 2020, 1:59 pm)deanmachine wrote [ -> ]I agree as well to be fair, a good Streetlite is a joy to drive, 5375 is currently my favourite bus to drive at Deptford, it's fast, the A/C blows cold, it's quite rattly but I don't actually care on a hot day and I've got a cool fast bus.
People do seem to focus on Streetlites more than anything else though, every type of bus I've driven has had bad and good examples. Look at Citaros 5337/5338 are absolutely awful to spend 4 hours on due to the rattles on them, but get 5336, or 5358 I ended up with on Rail Replacement a few weeks ago and they're really nice to drive. Buses are hand built vehicles that lead a tough life, and it just makes them all so variable that it isn't always just down to whether they're made by Wrightbus, ADL, or even Mercedes-Benz.
Good job you had 5358... If you had 5359, you'd have taken back everything you've ever said about 5337/38!
Question here. How much more fuel efficient is a StreetDeck compared to a Volvo B9TL?
(04 Aug 2020, 3:04 pm)L469 YVK wrote [ -> ]Question here. How much more fuel efficient is a StreetDeck compared to a Volvo B9TL?
Not sure of the real world figures, and I doubt GNE are likely to give them out, but from what I've read B9s seem to average around the 5mpg mark, whereas the StreetDecks are are closer to 8-9mpg