North East Buses

Just had a message from a friend on the bus and it looks like drivers are no longer updating the capacity of the vehicle, or bothering with the Bus Full signs.

On the bus she is on, there is at least one person per row and the driver is still letting people on. I tracked the bus on the website and the capacity is still saying "Quiet, this vehicle is mostly empty"

Quite worrying if this is the case.

I mean, on the X21 yesterday it seemed like it was getting quite busy, ie. at least one every other row, and it was still showing as 'Quiet', but I never thought anything of it at the time.

(19 Aug 2020, 12:02 pm)streetdeckfan wrote [ -> ]Just had a message from a friend on the bus and it looks like drivers are no longer updating the capacity of the vehicle, or bothering with the Bus Full signs.

On the bus she is on, there is at least one person per row and the driver is still letting people on. I tracked the bus on the website and the capacity is still saying "Quiet, this vehicle is mostly empty"

Quite worrying if this is the case.

I mean, on the X21 yesterday it seemed like it was getting quite busy, ie. at least one every other row, and it was still showing as 'Quiet', but I never thought anything of it at the time.

I was on a 49 a few weeks back and there was one person per row until the stage where there was two people to a row and one person standing


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(19 Aug 2020, 12:02 pm)streetdeckfan wrote [ -> ]Just had a message from a friend on the bus and it looks like drivers are no longer updating the capacity of the vehicle, or bothering with the Bus Full signs.

On the bus she is on, there is at least one person per row and the driver is still letting people on. I tracked the bus on the website and the capacity is still saying "Quiet, this vehicle is mostly empty"

Quite worrying if this is the case.

I mean, on the X21 yesterday it seemed like it was getting quite busy, ie. at least one every other row, and it was still showing as 'Quiet', but I never thought anything of it at the time.

I believe this is updated by the capacity data based on previous journeys on previous days/weeks. It is not a live feed. No doubt as services get busier  this will be reflected on future journeys

(19 Aug 2020, 12:02 pm)streetdeckfan wrote [ -> ]Just had a message from a friend on the bus and it looks like drivers are no longer updating the capacity of the vehicle, or bothering with the Bus Full signs.

On the bus she is on, there is at least one person per row and the driver is still letting people on. I tracked the bus on the website and the capacity is still saying "Quiet, this vehicle is mostly empty"

Quite worrying if this is the case.

I mean, on the X21 yesterday it seemed like it was getting quite busy, ie. at least one every other row, and it was still showing as 'Quiet', but I never thought anything of it at the time.

It's impossible to not track how many people are on the bus. There is warning signs on the ticket machines and capacity is monitored through this.

As a rule of thumb, capacity is half of the number of seats. However, this is assuming that every passenger is travelling on their own. So in reality, the capacity will be between 50-70% of the number of seats. It is not an exact science, and driver discretion is applied.

Frankly, drivers are in a no win situation in regards to this. They cannot enforce the wearing of masks or social distancing when on board the vehicle as it is often impossible to tell who is with who. Additionally, if they declare bus full and go sailing past stops (even on a frequent service) or have to refuse people waiting. It's only generating aggro for the driver.

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(19 Aug 2020, 12:10 pm)JP6004 wrote [ -> ]I believe this is updated by the capacity data based on previous journeys on previous days/weeks. It is not a live feed. No doubt as services get busier  this will be reflected on future journeys

That's the When2Travel thing, the capacity on the tracker should be live.

(19 Aug 2020, 12:10 pm)6049 wrote [ -> ]It's impossible to not track how many people are on the bus. There is warning signs on the ticket machines and capacity is monitored through this.

As a rule of thumb, capacity is half of the number of seats. However, this is assuming that every passenger is travelling on their own. So in reality, the capacity will be between 50-70% of the number of seats. It is not an exact science, and driver discretion is applied.

Frankly, drivers are in a no win situation in regards to this. They cannot enforce the wearing of masks or social distancing when on board the vehicle as it is often impossible to tell who is with who. Additionally, if they declare bus full and go sailing past stops (even on a frequent service) or have to refuse people waiting. It's only generating aggro for the driver.

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But don't the drivers have to actually use the counter for it to update? Or does registering a ticket automatically 'add one', then they count them off?

Because going off what MG has said, it should update the tracker on the website live and when it gets close to capacity it should at least change from 'quiet'

(19 Aug 2020, 12:13 pm)streetdeckfan wrote [ -> ]That's the When2Travel thing, the capacity on the tracker should be live.


But don't the drivers have to actually use the counter for it to update? Or does registering a ticket automatically 'add one', then they count them off?

Because going off what MG has said, it should update the tracker on the website live and when it gets close to capacity it should at least change from 'quiet'

Every ticket purchased, scanned or tapped is logged automatically. As people get off, the facility is there to count them off. If they are not counted off, the ticket machine assumes they are still on board. On a decker for example, around 30-35 people the alight button turns amber - thereby warning the driver they are nearing capacity. After around 40, the bar turns red to warn the driver that they are above capacity. The driver is then supposed to manually check to see if there are any free rows of seats in order to confirm that the bus is full and if there is room for anyone else.

The procedure then is to change the destination blind to bus full, send a message or radio supervisors (depending on service frequency) who will then make a decision as to whether another bus need to be sent out, or the next service is close behind with enough room for anyone left.

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(19 Aug 2020, 12:19 pm)6049 wrote [ -> ]Every ticket purchased, scanned or tapped is logged automatically. As people get off, the facility is there to count them off. If they are not counted off, the ticket machine assumes they are still on board. On a decker for example, around 30-35 people the alight button turns amber - thereby warning the driver they are nearing capacity. After around 40, the bar turns red to warn the driver that they are above capacity. The driver is then supposed to manually check to see if there are any free rows of seats in order to confirm that the bus is full and if there is room for anyone else.

The procedure then is to change the destination blind to bus full, send a message or radio supervisors (depending on service frequency) who will then make a decision as to whether another bus need to be sent out, or the next service is close behind with enough room for anyone left.

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But am I right in thinking that those numbers are then fed into the live tracker which should update the capacity? That's the way I understood it to work

(19 Aug 2020, 12:19 pm)6049 wrote [ -> ]The driver is then supposed to manually check to see if there are any free rows of seats in order to confirm that the bus is full and if there is room for anyone else.

The procedure then is to change the destination blind to bus full, send a message or radio supervisors (depending on service frequency) who will then make a decision as to whether another bus need to be sent out, or the next service is close behind with enough room for anyone left.

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This clearly isn't happening though in the situation Streetdeckfan described in the initial post. As soon as there is 1(+, if there are same household passengers) person per row, that implies the bus has reached capacity - so the destination should be updated and the driver shouldn't be allowing anyone else on.

(19 Aug 2020, 12:26 pm)streetdeckfan wrote [ -> ]But am I right in thinking that those numbers are then fed into the live tracker which should update the capacity? That's the way I understood it to work

That's how it should work in theory

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(19 Aug 2020, 12:19 pm)6049 wrote [ -> ]Every ticket purchased, scanned or tapped is logged automatically. As people get off, the facility is there to count them off. If they are not counted off, the ticket machine assumes they are still on board. On a decker for example, around 30-35 people the alight button turns amber - thereby warning the driver they are nearing capacity. After around 40, the bar turns red to warn the driver that they are above capacity. The driver is then supposed to manually check to see if there are any free rows of seats in order to confirm that the bus is full and if there is room for anyone else.

The procedure then is to change the destination blind to bus full, send a message or radio supervisors (depending on service frequency) who will then make a decision as to whether another bus need to be sent out, or the next service is close behind with enough room for anyone left.

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I noticed yesterday that the buses are getting busier. It depends on the driver, some don't want the arguments so just let them all on. Most, do put the BUS FULL sign up. I've seen one or two in the last week or so. Yesterday, the 21:18 6A from the Metrocentre seemed quite busy as this tweet came out saying that an extra bus would be put on. 

https://twitter.com/gonortheast/status/1...5960414209

(19 Aug 2020, 12:27 pm)mb134 wrote [ -> ]This clearly isn't happening though in the situation Streetdeckfan described in the initial post. As soon as there is 1(+, if there are same household passengers) person per row, that implies the bus has reached capacity - so the destination should be updated and the driver shouldn't be allowing anyone else on.

Like I say, it isn't an exact science. Drivers are doing their best in a difficult situation but it is down to the public to act responsibly while on board. You will always have a case or two where drivers simply forget or in rare cases, just can't be bothered with the hassle. There will of course be repercussions if a complaint is made and the investigation finds the driver ignored the guidelines set out. It's in everyone's interest to work together during this which I think is happening as a broad generalisation. However, like I have previously said, people have different opinions of what the latest guidelines are and will still be pushing for the 2m distance capacity when this is now no longer the case.

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(19 Aug 2020, 12:27 pm)6049 wrote [ -> ]That's how it should work in theory

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So I'm guessing it might be an IT issue then

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(19 Aug 2020, 12:32 pm)6049 wrote [ -> ]Like I say, it isn't an exact science. Drivers are doing their best in a difficult situation but it is down to the public to act responsibly while on board. You will always have a case or two where drivers simply forget or in rare cases, just can't be bothered with the hassle. There will of course be repercussions if a complaint is made and the investigation finds the driver ignored the guidelines set out. It's in everyone's interest to work together during this which I think is happening as a broad generalisation. However, like I have previously said, people have different opinions of what the latest guidelines are and will still be pushing for the 2m distance capacity when this is now no longer the case.

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I believe the guidance is 2m if you can, 1m if you can't.

So have a row in between when it's empty, and the keep to one per row once it gets a bit busier.

(19 Aug 2020, 12:36 pm)streetdeckfan wrote [ -> ]I believe the guidance is 2m if you can, 1m if you can't.

So have a row in between when it's empty, and the keep to one per row once it gets a bit busier.

The guidance is 2m unless it's not possible then its 1m plus with relevant mitigations (face masks, being back to back or side to side)

(19 Aug 2020, 12:02 pm)streetdeckfan wrote [ -> ]Just had a message from a friend on the bus and it looks like drivers are no longer updating the capacity of the vehicle, or bothering with the Bus Full signs.

On the bus she is on, there is at least one person per row and the driver is still letting people on. I tracked the bus on the website and the capacity is still saying "Quiet, this vehicle is mostly empty"

Quite worrying if this is the case.

I mean, on the X21 yesterday it seemed like it was getting quite busy, ie. at least one every other row, and it was still showing as 'Quiet', but I never thought anything of it at the time.

Issue is some of the drivers are showing no care whatsoever and letting on beyond the restricted capacity so their is no social distancing, for myself personally using the 21 coming out of Newcastle on a evening after finishing work is absolutely ridiculous as it is packed, fair enough the driver last night followed procedure to a tee by challenging anyone who did not have a face mask, tallied off on the ticket machine how many was on board but did again allow on board more than the restricted capacity, she only got on the cab and checked downstairs and upstairs prior to leaving Gateshead which is the first and only time in 5 months I have seen this duty of care for passengers taken place even if she was late in doing so.

I think personally some extras on the 21 are needed with immediate effect only issue here is resource, where does that the come from in terms of drivers & buses. From other observations some of the locals in Gateshead such as the 58 seem to have the same issue and I think with social distancing some services now more than ever need to have double deckers or an increase in frequency for continued passenger safety during this difficult time.

Well some drivers are using the bus full sign. I noticed a 265 at Dalton Park displaying bus full around lunchtime today, I’m not sure if it was a Durham bound or Seaham bound service.

I think Go North East's guidelines are one person or household per double seat. Stagecoach is a zigzag formation for seating.

But in both cases the local services are doing better then the express buses that seem to be mainly carrying fresh air.

(19 Aug 2020, 6:18 pm)Ds1197 wrote [ -> ]I think Go North East's guidelines are one person or household per double seat. Stagecoach is a zigzag formation for seating.

But in both cases the local services are doing better then the express buses that seem to be mainly carrying fresh air.

I personally think on a bus it doesn't really make much difference which formation you use. You're close enough together that it'd probably make sod all difference anyway!

I can't wait for them to open up the rearward facing seats again, I much prefer sitting backwards, and I see no issue with me sitting facing backwards if there's nobody at the other side of the table.

(19 Aug 2020, 12:02 pm)streetdeckfan wrote [ -> ]Just had a message from a friend on the bus and it looks like drivers are no longer updating the capacity of the vehicle, or bothering with the Bus Full signs.

On the bus she is on, there is at least one person per row and the driver is still letting people on. I tracked the bus on the website and the capacity is still saying "Quiet, this vehicle is mostly empty"

Quite worrying if this is the case.

I mean, on the X21 yesterday it seemed like it was getting quite busy, ie. at least one every other row, and it was still showing as 'Quiet', but I never thought anything of it at the time.

A 64 passed my house, this morning, with the buss full + social distancing sign on. It was barely 1/4 full.

(20 Aug 2020, 11:05 pm)BusLoverMum wrote [ -> ]A 64 passed my house, this morning, with the buss full + social distancing sign on. It was barely 1/4 full.

Driver must have fancied a easy shift 

Is there any sign of front seats being un taped on buses with lack of social distancing between passengers. This would massively help. Noticed on some SC buses & 7122 that front seats weren't the case. On 632 on Wednesday a passenger on a full 19 was asked to sit on an taped seat on 632. Been told by a freind that 6344 also has no front seat tape.

I think it depends on the situation. If the bus is getting full and just a couple more people are boarding before town then I understand. Saturdays in particular would be challenging as most buses are pretty full as well (and Sunday with less buses being out). Most passengers have passes/day/week tickets so if they felt uncomfortable they can get off and board the next one if they desired.

To add with what has been said already, I wonder if local events, have any impact?
South Tyneside is on the watch list, Fencehouses has seen a huge upsurge according to the Sunderland Echo.

Assuming S Tyneside locks down and 300 people are self-isolating in Fencehouses, then it could have a major impact on services.
Do you stick a smaller Solo on the 4 to cope with any drop in numbers and allow greater distancing on the 81 etc across Washington by using Mercs?

(19 Aug 2020, 12:36 pm)streetdeckfan wrote [ -> ]So I'm guessing it might be an IT issue then

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I believe the guidance is 2m if you can, 1m if you can't.

So have a row in between when it's empty, and the keep to one per row once it gets a bit busier.

Yep, that is my understanding too. But I dont think sitting in each row even achieves 1m.

A Streetlite for example is 11.5m long. If you look at the floor plans, roughly half of the bus (5.75m) has 7 rows of seats.



As its not possible to remain 1m apart sitting every row, then every other row should therefore be marked out of use IMO.

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(06 Sep 2020, 10:17 pm)Adrian wrote [ -> ]Yep, that is my understanding too. But I dont think sitting in each row even achieves 1m.

A Streetlite for example is 11.5m long. If you look at the floor plans, roughly half of the bus (5.75m) has 7 rows of seats.



As its not possible to remain 1m apart sitting every row, then every other row should therefore be marked out of use IMO.

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It's all about common sense though, assuming the 1m+ guidance is a worst case scenario, ie. face to face, then sitting slightly closer one behind another won't be an issue. 

That makes me wonder if there is still a reason to have the rear facing seats blocked off.
I haven't measured, but I'm fairly sure that there's a good metre between faces when you sit at the tables on the StreetDecks and the E400s. If that is the case, then the 1m+ guidance can still be followed sitting face to face at a table.

(06 Sep 2020, 10:45 pm)streetdeckfan wrote [ -> ]It's all about common sense though, assuming the 1m+ guidance is a worst case scenario, ie. face to face, then sitting slightly closer one behind another won't be an issue. 

That makes me wonder if there is still a reason to have the rear facing seats blocked off.
I haven't measured, but I'm fairly sure that there's a good metre between faces when you sit at the tables on the StreetDecks and the E400s. If that is the case, then the 1m+ guidance can still be followed sitting face to face at a table.

Its 1m+ - not 'slightly closer than 1m+'. You can read the guidance for yourself at: https://www.gov.uk/government/publicatio...-operators

Not sitting face to face is already a recommended action at both 2m and 1m+

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(06 Sep 2020, 10:54 pm)Adrian wrote [ -> ]Its 1m+ - not 'slightly closer than 1m+'. You can read the guidance for yourself at: https://www.gov.uk/government/publicatio...-operators

Not sitting face to face is already a recommended action at both 2m and 1m+

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But it's also says 1m 'where possible'. Even sitting at the window seat, you're still going to be within 1m of anyone walking in the aisle.

So as I said, it comes down to common sense, it's guidance, not a law (unlike face coverings, which operators are still treating as guidance, and not the law it is)

(06 Sep 2020, 11:06 pm)streetdeckfan wrote [ -> ]So as I said, it comes down to common sense, it's guidance, not a law (unlike face coverings, which operators are still treating as guidance, and not the law it is)

Just on this point, it's a hell of a lot easier currently for drivers and operators to police social distancing on board than mask wearing. 

In terms of social distancing, all the driver has to do is hit a button to change the display to "Bus Full" and start sailing past bus stops. Whereas with masks, it's a far more contentious issue - some people have genuine conditions which makes them exempt, while at the same time the percentage of the UK population with 'asthma' must be at an all time high.

(06 Sep 2020, 11:06 pm)streetdeckfan wrote [ -> ]But it's also says 1m 'where possible'. Even sitting at the window seat, you're still going to be within 1m of anyone walking in the aisle.

So as I said, it comes down to common sense, it's guidance, not a law (unlike face coverings, which operators are still treating as guidance, and not the law it is)

It is possible though, but it comes down to an operators willingness to enforce it. Similar to the facemasks, which I posted about a couple weeks ago, and similar to pubs doing the absolute bare minimum for that matter.

If they can enforce a 2m social distancing at the front of the bus, towards the drivers cab, then its possible to enforce 1m elsewhere on the bus.

Its granted that people walking to and from their seats are going to encroach on others, but this is a lesser risk than someone sitting less than 1m apart from another passenger for a 30 minute journey.

I wonder why the rear half of the bus is deemed to be lower risk than the front half...

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I've got asthma and I've been wearing a face mask a slightly less layed then most masks and I can cope with the slight discomfort then catch covid and they isn't an official to get exempt cards because you don't need to brove you've got something to get one

(06 Sep 2020, 11:17 pm)mb134 wrote [ -> ]Just on this point, it's a hell of a lot easier currently for drivers and operators to police social distancing on board than mask wearing. 

In terms of social distancing, all the driver has to do is hit a button to change the display to "Bus Full" and start sailing past bus stops. Whereas with masks, it's a far more contentious issue - some people have genuine conditions which makes them exempt, while at the same time the percentage of the UK population with 'asthma' must be at an all time high.

I disagree there, while it's not possible for them to totally 'police' the wearing of masks, it is possible for them to at least ask passengers if they have a mask. Whereas, they have absolutely no control over where people sit on the bus. 
If a large group of people are all sitting together upstairs and the bus reaches the 'maximum' capacity, but there are still plenty of seats free downstairs, would the driver have to stop letting people on?

(06 Sep 2020, 11:19 pm)Adrian wrote [ -> ]It is possible though, but it comes down to an  operators willingness to enforce it. Similar to the facemasks, which I posted about a couple weeks ago, and similar to pubs doing the absolute bare minimum for that matter.

If they can enforce a 2m social distancing at the front of the bus, towards the drivers cab, then its possible to enforce 1m elsewhere on the bus.

Its granted that people walking to and from their seats are going to encroach on others, but this is a lesser risk than someone sitting less than 1m apart from another passenger for a 30 minute journey.

I wonder why the rear half of the bus is deemed to be lower risk than the front half...

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Exactly, it's all down to increasing revenue, if they can squeeze a few extra people on the bus, they will. But I also think that sitting slightly less than 1m apart, wearing a face covering, sitting face-to-back is a non-issue. Next time I go out, I'll take my tape measure and see exactly how far apart the seats are

I do personally find it rather amusing that they go on about drivers being protected behind the screen so they don't have to wear a mask, but they still have the 2m 'safety bubble' for them.
I see absolutely no reason why the seats are still cordoned off. On the Streetlites/Versas, I can understand because they're sideways, but on the E200s, E400s, Citaros and Omnicitys I just think it's a bit over the top.

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(06 Sep 2020, 11:34 pm)Ds1197 wrote [ -> ]I've got asthma and I've been wearing a face mask a slightly less layed then most masks and I can cope with the slight discomfort then catch covid and they isn't an official to get exempt cards because you don't need to brove you've got something to get one

That's one thing that irritates me, when people say they wear a mask to stop catching COVID, unless you're wearing an N95 mask (I believe that's the minimum standard anyway), it doesn't reduce the chance of catching it by any reasonable margin. Wearing a mask only reduces the chance of transmission if you are already infected. Not a dig at you, but it almost annoys me as much as people who wear the mask under their nose!

Having said that, most of the time I have no issue wearing a mask, but if it's particularly humid I have trouble catching my breath at the best of times never mind wearing a mask. Even then, I'll wear it for as long as I can.