North East Buses

(16 Aug 2021, 8:36 pm)L469 YVK wrote [ -> ]

• Investment does affect net profit as it needs to be paid for and factored in over a number of years. Ideally, a bus will be depreciated more between 1-8 years (or less if more demanding work) before being moved onto a "secondary" route. The VDL Geminis at Blyth on the 308 & X10/X11 should've been replaced around 2018/19 then cascaded accordingly. And the "right" investments along with a well planned network will help improve efficiency and create growth / profit over a longer term.
  
  
• But what about the "next generation" of bus users in SE Northumberland also taking into account the ABTRL? If they keep experiencing a Gemini in limp mode or a sub-standard B7TL deputising or constantly getting chased by the bus behind due to late running, they're going to be more tempted towards alternative modes of transport.  Again, short term vs long term. GNE are actually making an effort to market and make their services attractive rather than the dreary same old.
  
  
• As things stand in Derwentside, GNE have a strong corridor on the X45/X46 and have actually created growth through correct investment and marketing as shown by the upgrade from single to double deck vehicles not forgetting running via the Metrocentre although not a 'de-tour' for most parts of the routes. Likewise, GNE have actually reduced the impact of the X30/X31 & X70/X71/X72 having nothing in between by streamlining the frequency between Sunniside and Newcastle to provide a bus roughly every 10 minutes. In fact, the X30 and soon to be X31 between Sunniside and Newcastle already replaces former parts of the 98 that used to operate until 2015.
  
  
• The Tyne Valley...........now to be fair, GNE already had a stronghold along the Ryton - Newcastle corridor before 2010. However, they have actually grown the 10 (former 602). So half hourly with B10BLEs > every 20 mins with Mercs > every 30 minutes with Volvo B9TLs (and approx every 15 mins to Prudhoe with the 10B). Again in comparison to Arriva, that growth and sustainability came through correct investment and marketing. Would actually be interesting to think how things would've turned out had the deal with Arriva not happened. And then.............came along the X84/X85 in 2013 ironically competing with Arriva's 685 (complained about in the press) and look where that has gone now with X-Lines?
  

• It's 15 years they depreciate buses over (the useful life, I believe it might be 12 years for minibuses - but can't confirm that) so the Gemini's etc at Blyth will still be affecting the P&L. The problem with cascades though is where you cascade them to, as most the SE Northumberland routes are strong for their own reasons. No-one wants to live on the 'cast off' bus route and it's something you have to be careful about. They did get a refurb with MAX around then though which is good enough imo.
  
• Can't argue about that but then it doesn't mean you need to cut services which was the original discussion, I don't think anyone can disagree with improvements but if it was that or an increased frequency then the frequency will always win (unless there's serious reliability issues).
  
• In fairness though even known the X30/X31 are good at what they do, the expressness of them is a big issue aswell for other routes. It's all good if you live in Stanley but they literally serve nothing to Sunniside yet the towns and villages one / two roads across have changes every other week, one now without a service to the Metro Centre, the other finally getting it's Newcastle service back (one improvement not mentioned). Ashington have it a lot better imo with them serving the local villages like Bedlington and Stakeford on the way, then running express say from Sunniside straight into Newcastle, then have one service half hourly dotting around for the Metro Centre (like the 57 or 19 to Cramlington).  If there's demand have an hourly express service from Stanley like the X20 via Gateshead, extending through to Lanchester using the 30 route or something which might improve that route, it's ridiculous that Stanley doesn't have a direct bus to Gateshead imo without going round the world. The X72 is a good move though as it's kind of on that route so credit where it's due.
  
• Can't really fault the Tyne Valley corridor tbh.
  

(16 Aug 2021, 9:18 pm)L469 YVK wrote [ -> ]GNE's X21 funnily enough (I do have flaws with GNE too), I was actually disappointed (although the recent changes reveal why) when they split the original E400MMC order that the X21 wasn't considered. StreetDecks again, I don't personally think they're suited to the X1 and I'd hope that GNE have a succession route for them when better times allow or worst case, replace after 5 years.

As a passenger, the new StreetDecks are far superior to the E400s, they're more comfortable, feel more spacious and most importantly have head room up stairs.

Mechanically, they seem to have made a lot of changes since the Angel batch so it'll be interesting to see what the reliability is like.
The 16 plates were (and still are) fairly unreliable, but the 67 plates seem to be fairly solid.

(16 Aug 2021, 9:45 pm)streetdeckfan wrote [ -> ]As a passenger, the new StreetDecks are far superior to the E400s, they're more comfortable, feel more spacious and most importantly have head room up stairs.

Mechanically, they seem to have made a lot of changes since the Angel batch so it'll be interesting to see what the reliability is like.
The 16 plates were (and still are) fairly unreliable, but the 67 plates seem to be fairly solid.

Well the 67 plates are G3's, And I must say to go back to the X21 GNE needs to get there head together for that service I understand 6335,6336 being as spares but I do not think there is enough X21 Branded buses for the route and there was 3 omnidekkas on the other day aswell which could not be happening on such as high profile route.

(16 Aug 2021, 9:59 pm)Keeiajs wrote [ -> ]Well the 67 plates are G3's, And I must say to go back to the X21 GNE needs to get there head together for that service I understand 6335,6336 being as spares but I do not think there is enough X21 Branded buses for the route and there was 3 omnidekkas on the other day aswell which could not be happening on such as high profile route.

There should be 7x B5TLs (6308-14) with either 6335/36 making up PVR with the other spare.

Again, going back to a level playing field, worst purchase decision ever for the X9/X10 although I don't know how they've coped on the X21? They were used during lockdown 1 with few issues on the 10/10A so perhaps that influenced the allocation as the 10 can be tough between Prudhoe and Hexham.

(16 Aug 2021, 10:04 pm)L469 YVK wrote [ -> ]There should be 7x B5TLs (6308-14) with either 6335/36 making up PVR with the other spare.

Again, going back to a level playing field, worst purchase decision ever for the X9/X10 although I don't know how they've coped on the X21? They were used during lockdown 1 with few issues on the 10/10A so perhaps that influenced the allocation as the 10 can be tough between Prudhoe and Hexham.

Yeah, they need 8 I think but the problem is I don't think I have seen a day in some time when there was been all 7 on. They haven't coped the best on the X21, they need to either transfer 6301/6302 and there was **3** omnidekkas on it the other day which honestly is ridiculous that means 4 buses were off the road, atleast two branded if not more. So I dont think they have coped particularly well which isn't a surprise.

(16 Aug 2021, 7:17 pm)Keeiajs wrote [ -> ]At the end of the day if GNE can't make it profit they remove the service, use it or lose it, it is simple business 
 and if you don't get that ur stupid I hate to say it however GNE hast to make money they have staff to pay. Not run a bus service which is bleeding money. Simple

Or... And this is a big ask and one that I keep bringing up...
They operate services that take people to where the actually need to be.

The network is pretty much as it was 30/40/50 years ago when people worked/shopped in town centres and lived on a council estate, on the edge of the town centre.
Fast forward to 2021 and commercial teams still think thats the case. Except it isn't. They're not savvy enough to try something different and spend time reallocating vehicles, spending money at their mates design agency, changing route numbers and reducing fleet sizes, to suit a dwindling market.

Despite there being a ripe new market, sitting there and being ignored. 
They're shouting. They're telling the operators what they need, they're sitting in queues of traffic (holding up buses heading in a different direction) and they're being ignored.
Use it or lose it threats aren't going to work, when nobody uses it in the first place

It should be pointed out it isn’t ANE investment, Arriva aren’t investing nationwide at the moment due to the parent company not knowing if they are coming or going. The 306 could be taking a million quid a day and they still wouldn’t be getting any new buses at the moment, it isn’t anything about the performance of ANE on its own.

All of Arriva is in this situation where flagship routes are floundering with increasingly older buses, all kinds of liveries, buses being swapped about to meet clean air zones without actually buying anything new.

(16 Aug 2021, 10:34 pm)Wybus wrote [ -> ]It should be pointed out it isn’t ANE investment, Arriva aren’t investing nationwide at the moment due to the parent company not knowing if they are coming or going. The 306 could be taking a million quid a day and they still wouldn’t be getting any new buses at the moment, it isn’t anything about the performance of ANE on its own.

All of Arriva is in this situation where flagship routes are floundering with increasingly older buses, all kinds of liveries, buses being swapped about to meet clean air zones without actually buying anything new.

I think GNE could easily take the northumbria area, especially the area from Newcastle to Blyth. If they bought very high spec buses.

(16 Aug 2021, 9:59 pm)Keeiajs wrote [ -> ]Well the 67 plates are G3's, And I must say to go back to the X21 GNE needs to get there head together for that service I understand 6335,6336 being as spares but I do not think there is enough X21 Branded buses for the route and there was 3 omnidekkas on the other day aswell which could not be happening on such as high profile route.

I am well aware that the current X21 vehicles are Gemini 3s given that it's my 'local' route.

I was referring to the 67 plate StreetDecks that we also had on the X21. The Hop Tap Go liveried one (6332) spent like 99% of it's time on the X21 before going over to Consett, and with the rebrand to Xlines and the demotion of 6301-6303 (the worst in the batch apparently) to corporate, we got 6331-6333 branded into X21. 

The difference between the 16 plates and the 67 plates was massive, the 67 plates were smoother, quieter and had way less rattles.

Contrast that with the 67 plate B5s, they're bloody awful. They have more rattles than Arriva's E400s. The only upside to getting the B5s was they are better on the motorway, but it's only a relatively short section of the route so overall they're a downgrade in my opinion.

Of the few times that I've used 6334/5, I've found them better than the 67 plates, which considering they're 3-4 years older really says something!

As I said further up, I have nothing against an Omnidekka, in fact I quite like them. If they did a bit of a refresh inside a couple of them, installing USB ports and some proper seats, I wouldn't mind doing the near 2-hour journey in one.

(16 Aug 2021, 10:21 pm)Andreos1 wrote [ -> ]Or... And this is a big ask and one that I keep bringing up...
They operate services that take people to where the actually need to be.

The network is pretty much as it was 30/40/50 years ago when people worked/shopped in town centres and lived on a council estate, on the edge of the town centre.
Fast forward to 2021 and commercial teams still think thats the case. Except it isn't. They're not savvy enough to try something different and spend time reallocating vehicles, spending money at their mates design agency, changing route numbers and reducing fleet sizes, to suit a dwindling market.

Despite there being a ripe new market, sitting there and being ignored. 
They're shouting. They're telling the operators what they need, they're sitting in queues of traffic (holding up buses heading in a different direction) and they're being ignored.
Use it or lose it threats aren't going to work, when nobody uses it in the first place

Bus operators simply don't have the resource to operate services for every possible direct journey permutation at a frequency attractive enough to get more people out of cars. A quick look at any operating companies filled account will bear that out clearly enough. 

So unless you want them to get the "begging bowl" out so they fulfil your dreams, I doubt it's going to happen......

(16 Aug 2021, 11:33 pm)DeltaMan wrote [ -> ]Bus operators simply don't have the resource to operate services for every possible direct journey permutation at a frequency attractive enough to get more people out of cars. A quick look at any operating companies filled account will bear that out clearly enough. 

So unless you want them to get the "begging bowl" out so they fulfil your dreams, I doubt it's going to happen......

I think the issue is less about having direct services everywhere but having services at all. There are housing estates popping up all over the place no bus services at all nearby, same with out of town retail parks. 
It's not even new estates that are the problem, my mother's house was built in the 70s and it's still a mile walk to get the bus to Durham or Bishop. There's a reason pretty much every house in the estate has at least 2 cars!

Now, granted GNE have been doing a fairly decent job recently at serving retail parks, and I think the extension of the 21 to Brandon along with also serving Arnison Centre is a fantastic idea. Same with sending the 10N (or whatever letter it is, seriously give it a different bloody number!) to Tyne View Retail Park, and the X21 to Tindale

(16 Aug 2021, 11:30 pm)streetdeckfan wrote [ -> ]I am well aware that the current X21 vehicles are Gemini 3s given that it's my 'local' route.

I was referring to the 67 plate StreetDecks that we also had on the X21. The Hop Tap Go liveried one (6332) spent like 99% of it's time on the X21 before going over to Consett, and with the rebrand to Xlines and the demotion of 6301-6303 (the worst in the batch apparently) to corporate, we got 6331-6333 branded into X21. 

The difference between the 16 plates and the 67 plates was massive, the 67 plates were smoother, quieter and had way less rattles.

Contrast that with the 67 plate B5s, they're bloody awful. They have more rattles than Arriva's E400s. The only upside to getting the B5s was they are better on the motorway, but it's only a relatively short section of the route so overall they're a downgrade in my opinion.

Of the few times that I've used 6334/5, I've found them better than the 67 plates, which considering they're 3-4 years older really says something!

As I said further up, I have nothing against an Omnidekka, in fact I quite like them. If they did a bit of a refresh inside a couple of them, installing USB ports and some proper seats, I wouldn't mind doing the near 2-hour journey in one.

Yeah I prefer 6335/36 over those streetdecks my issue with the omnidekkas is that there are no USB or decent seats which are advertised on that service that is what really annoys me.

(16 Aug 2021, 11:33 pm)DeltaMan wrote [ -> ]Bus operators simply don't have the resource to operate services for every possible direct journey permutation at a frequency attractive enough to get more people out of cars. A quick look at any operating companies filled account will bear that out clearly enough. 

So unless you want them to get the "begging bowl" out so they fulfil your dreams, I doubt it's going to happen......

Who said anything about operating services for every possible journey permutation?

I think the most important question is what torque setting is used to tighten the wheel-nuts on the newly branded Red Kite Rangers and when was it last calibrated?

Oh, and what colour and brand is the torque wrench?

(16 Aug 2021, 7:17 pm)Keeiajs wrote [ -> ]At the end of the day if GNE can't make it profit they remove the service, use it or lose it, it is simple business 
 and if you don't get that ur stupid I hate to say it however GNE hast to make money they have staff to pay. Not run a bus service which is bleeding money. Simple

(16 Aug 2021, 10:35 pm)Keeiajs wrote [ -> ]I think GNE could easily take the northumbria area, especially the area from Newcastle to Blyth. If they bought very high spec buses.

So which one is it? Your suggestion of GNE crying poverty when it comes to providing the most basic of service to a community that has no alternative, versus seemingly having a magic money tree up at Queen Street to fund 'very high spec buses' in some kind of 'takeover' of the Northumbria area.

Top marks. At least you're consistent, if nothing else. 

(17 Aug 2021, 8:14 am)Adrian wrote [ -> ]So which one is it? Your suggestion of GNE crying poverty when it comes to providing the most basic of service to a community that has no alternative, versus seemingly having a magic money tree up at Queen Street to fund 'very high spec buses' in some kind of 'takeover' of the Northumbria area.

Top marks. At least you're consistent, if nothing else. 

And don't forget this is the same guy who only last week was arguing for the 62 to be diverted to serve Parkside despite that area of Seaham having a frequent 20 minute service to both Seaham and Sunderland where passengers can change onto services going elsewhere.

I guess it's alright for Parkside to have a hourly service to Dalton Park or a faster service to Sunderland but people in Catchgate or Stanley have to either switch buses to get to Metrocentre or endure a lengthier journey to Gateshead? 

(17 Aug 2021, 5:58 am)MurdnunoC wrote [ -> ]I think the most important question is what torque setting is used to tighten the wheel-nuts on the newly branded  Red Kite Rangers  and when was it last calibrated?

Oh, and what colour and brand is the torque wrench?

They're away to their cross city rivals Red Kite Utd this weekend.

(17 Aug 2021, 9:04 am)Andreos1 wrote [ -> ]They're away to their cross city rivals Red Kite Utd this weekend.

It's lucky Red Kite Rangers have decided to provide buses for fans travelling across the city to the ground of Red Kite Utd this weekend. As this trip only happens a couple of times per season, the bus service supporters traditionally use has fallen foul of the "Use It or Lose It" philosophy of the local bus operators (and their fan-led propagandists).

(17 Aug 2021, 12:03 am)streetdeckfan wrote [ -> ]I think the issue is less about having direct services everywhere but having services at all. There are housing estates popping up all over the place no bus services at all nearby, same with out of town retail parks. 
It's not even new estates that are the problem, my mother's house was built in the 70s and it's still a mile walk to get the bus to Durham or Bishop. There's a reason pretty much every house in the estate has at least 2 cars!

Now, granted GNE have been doing a fairly decent job recently at serving retail parks, and I think the extension of the 21 to Brandon along with also serving Arnison Centre is a fantastic idea. Same with sending the 10N (or whatever letter it is, seriously give it a different bloody number!) to Tyne View Retail Park, and the X21 to Tindale

Not wanting to go too off topic but the whole planning nature of estates in the UK since the 1970s has been car centric and still is. Developers gobble up rafts of old fields that have never had a service so people buying there naturally use their car - when the bus operators finally come in they find low usage is a problem (well obviously!)

but Andreos is right, operators still think in black and white and it's a grey world. Making buses fit for the future would be to respond to changing customer demographics and journeys and to an extent they are with some of the leisure services as opposed to cut cut cut

But then this group can sometimes think black and white too and live out on the hope the world hasn't changed, it has and it's never going back to normal - the commute is all but dead - we can pretend it's coming back but it's not - not in it's old volumes

(17 Aug 2021, 8:14 am)Adrian wrote [ -> ]So which one is it? Your suggestion of GNE crying poverty when it comes to providing the most basic of service to a community that has no alternative, versus seemingly having a magic money tree up at Queen Street to fund 'very high spec buses' in some kind of 'takeover' of the Northumbria area.

Top marks. At least you're consistent, if nothing else. 

If you lose money you can't operate a service that is simple, but that doesn't stop you investing into new buses to try and take on your competitor. Does it.