(17 Aug 2021, 10:33 am)Ambassador wrote [ -> ]Not wanting to go too off topic but the whole planning nature of estates in the UK since the 1970s has been car centric and still is. Developers gobble up rafts of old fields that have never had a service so people buying there naturally use their car - when the bus operators finally come in they find low usage is a problem (well obviously!)
Just on this, if we take the new development at Cramlington on the A1068 opposite the Snowy Owl as an example. That road has had a bus service since forever, and new stops were installed right at the start of the development. While I'm sure there are occasions of people getting on there, I've not one seen anything stop there - and while I'm not in the NE for months at a time, when I am down I use the X21/22 almost daily to get into town.
If we then look at the current level of service past those stops:
X21/22 - every 15 minutes combined.
X9 - every 30 minutes.
So that's a bus to town every 10 minutes or so, a bus to Cramlington and Blyth every 30 minutes, and a bus to Ashington/Bedlington every 15 minutes. Realistically, then, frequency isn't an issue here, and to be honest neither is journey time - from those stops the X9/21/22 go straight into town and have bus lanes to avoid traffic cars would face, so it's likely faster if anything.
Advertisement? Well, possibly, but the bus stops created can hardly be missed by anyone living there, nor can the double decker buses flying past every 15 minutes. Arriva include the stop in their timetables (though not the PDF with only key timing points) "Cramlington Fisher Lane - Arcot Manor"), as do Bustimes and Google (though Google don't have the X9??). All maps show the stops in the wrong location, i.e south of the roundabout rather than north, but I don't imagine that would make a huge difference.
It seems to me like even when decent bus services are spoon fed to people in newer developments, there's little to no uptake.
(17 Aug 2021, 11:56 am)mb134 wrote [ -> ]Just on this, if we take the new development at Cramlington on the A1068 opposite the Snowy Owl as an example. That road has had a bus service since forever, and new stops were installed right at the start of the development. While I'm sure there are occasions of people getting on there, I've not one seen anything stop there - and while I'm not in the NE for months at a time, when I am down I use the X21/22 almost daily to get into town.
If we then look at the current level of service past those stops:
X21/22 - every 15 minutes combined.
X9 - every 30 minutes.
So that's a bus to town every 10 minutes or so, a bus to Cramlington and Blyth every 30 minutes, and a bus to Ashington/Bedlington every 15 minutes. Realistically, then, frequency isn't an issue here, and to be honest neither is journey time - from those stops the X9/21/22 go straight into town and have bus lanes to avoid traffic cars would face, so it's likely faster if anything.
Advertisement? Well, possibly, but the bus stops created can hardly be missed by anyone living there, nor can the double decker buses flying past every 15 minutes. Arriva include the stop in their timetables (though not the PDF with only key timing points) "Cramlington Fisher Lane - Arcot Manor"), as do Bustimes and Google (though Google don't have the X9??). All maps show the stops in the wrong location, i.e south of the roundabout rather than north, but I don't imagine that would make a huge difference.
It seems to me like even when decent bus services are spoon fed to people in newer developments, there's little to no uptake.
Might be just the X21/22 up that end if what ive read is true,that Arriva are supposedly withdrawing their X9
(17 Aug 2021, 1:12 pm)V514DFT wrote [ -> ]Might be just the X21/22 up that end if what ive read is true,that Arriva are supposedly withdrawing their X9
That was a mistake made by someone in the Arriva thread - it's the peak time cobalt service X6 which is being withdrawn (which I believe historically was numbered the X9)
For those interested in scholars and other miscellaneous workings, GNE are retaining the 4274 scholars contract plus another County Durham school service - 5025 but I'm unsure which school this is. From September 2021 - 2025.
(17 Aug 2021, 4:26 pm)peter wrote [ -> ]That was a mistake made by someone in the Arriva thread - it's the peak time cobalt service X6 which is being withdrawn (which I believe historically was numbered the X9)
Just read back and realised I put the X9 - just changed it now. You're right though mixed it up with the Cobalt X6. It did used to be the X9 though, the X6 which used to be half of the current X8 and after that the 56 which is now partly the 54. The X6, X8 and X9 numbers haven't half got around in the last decade or so.
(17 Aug 2021, 11:56 am)mb134 wrote [ -> ]Just on this, if we take the new development at Cramlington on the A1068 opposite the Snowy Owl as an example. That road has had a bus service since forever, and new stops were installed right at the start of the development. While I'm sure there are occasions of people getting on there, I've not one seen anything stop there - and while I'm not in the NE for months at a time, when I am down I use the X21/22 almost daily to get into town.
If we then look at the current level of service past those stops:
X21/22 - every 15 minutes combined.
X9 - every 30 minutes.
So that's a bus to town every 10 minutes or so, a bus to Cramlington and Blyth every 30 minutes, and a bus to Ashington/Bedlington every 15 minutes. Realistically, then, frequency isn't an issue here, and to be honest neither is journey time - from those stops the X9/21/22 go straight into town and have bus lanes to avoid traffic cars would face, so it's likely faster if anything.
Advertisement? Well, possibly, but the bus stops created can hardly be missed by anyone living there, nor can the double decker buses flying past every 15 minutes. Arriva include the stop in their timetables (though not the PDF with only key timing points) "Cramlington Fisher Lane - Arcot Manor"), as do Bustimes and Google (though Google don't have the X9??). All maps show the stops in the wrong location, i.e south of the roundabout rather than north, but I don't imagine that would make a huge difference.
It seems to me like even when decent bus services are spoon fed to people in newer developments, there's little to no uptake.
Do those services take residents to the places they need to be?
I'm thinking work, pleasure and education and of my limited knowledge of up that way - I'd say, probably not.
Despite all those bus lanes heading down the Great North Road and in to the town, I reckon a big percentage will be heading off somewhere else that doesn't involve driving through Gosforth.
(17 Aug 2021, 6:23 pm)Andreos1 wrote [ -> ]Do those services take residents to the places they need to be?
I'm thinking work, pleasure and education and of my limited knowledge of up that way - I'd say, probably not.
Despite all those bus lanes heading down the Great North Road and in to the town, I reckon a big percentage will be heading off somewhere else that doesn't involve driving through Gosforth.
In fairness they'd take them to most of SE Northumberland, the X21/X22 doing Bedlington, Ashington with a change at Ashington anywhere North and the X9 doing Cramlington and Blyth which are the main shopping places locally and for entertainment with a change to pretty much everywhere North of the Tyne at the Regent Centre, Gosforth, Newcastle or Cramlington (if not everywhere, struggling where you couldn't tbh and that's not doing U routes either mostly quicker than driving with the bus to Regent Centre / Metro).
There's not realistically anywhere else they could have a bus service to that they'd want to go to.
(17 Aug 2021, 6:23 pm)Andreos1 wrote [ -> ]Do those services take residents to the places they need to be?
I'm thinking work, pleasure and education and of my limited knowledge of up that way - I'd say, probably not.
Despite all those bus lanes heading down the Great North Road and in to the town, I reckon a big percentage will be heading off somewhere else that doesn't involve driving through Gosforth.
Additionally, residents moving into that new estate must come from somewhere. Perhaps they moved from another estate where owning a car was essential for the reasons Ambassador has outlined in his previous post?
(17 Aug 2021, 7:02 pm)MurdnunoC wrote [ -> ]Additionally, residents moving into that new estate must come from somewhere. Perhaps they moved from another estate where owning a car was essential for the reasons Ambassador has outlined in his previous post?
They seem to be building on every plot of land they can find, so its no surprise that buses in those areas are inadequate.
(17 Aug 2021, 11:15 am)Keeiajs wrote [ -> ]If you lose money you can't operate a service that is simple, but that doesn't stop you investing into new buses to try and take on your competitor. Does it.
If you lose money, you cannot operate a service? Where's that written down in legislation?
Not all journeys of a service not being profitable does not instantly mean a business is haemorrhaging money, though I accept it means that margins aren't as tight as they potentially could be. You need to be prepared to take some hits to make money, and whilst a 71 nearly being axed or services being re-routed in Stanley might not mean a lot to you, people
rely on those services and negative impact will only ever push people towards private cars or taxis.
As others have said, enthusiasts can be too dismissive of how changes impacts others. We're supposed to be of the business of
'Bus Back Better' these days, and I'm afraid that I don't see how some of these changes fits in with that desire to grow passenger numbers.
(17 Aug 2021, 6:39 pm)Storx wrote [ -> ]In fairness they'd take them to most of SE Northumberland, the X21/X22 doing Bedlington, Ashington with a change at Ashington anywhere North and the X9 doing Cramlington and Blyth which are the main shopping places locally and for entertainment with a change to pretty much everywhere North of the Tyne at the Regent Centre, Gosforth, Newcastle or Cramlington (if not everywhere, struggling where you couldn't tbh and that's not doing U routes either mostly quicker than driving with the bus to Regent Centre / Metro).
There's not realistically anywhere else they could have a bus service to that they'd want to go to.
I'm thinking the Quorums, Great Parks, Cobalts and Silverlinks of the world.
Appreciate there's Cramlington Town centre nearby, there's the mainline links and the new hospital too (not familiar with the schools).
You mention changing at the Regent Centre for a variety of other places. Would that be viable for a daily commute and/or getting little Jonny to school?
Car vs public transport and its proximity to the A1, A189 and A19, indicate to me that there's one immediate winner and unless ANE step it up (offering a viable alternative), I can't see much changing.
Particularly with all of the major supermarkets offering online delivery. Can't see that estate being made up of the bread and milk brigade.
(17 Aug 2021, 7:51 pm)Adrian wrote [ -> ]If you lose money, you cannot operate a service? Where's that written down in legislation?
Not all journeys of a service not being profitable does not instantly mean a business is haemorrhaging money, though I accept it means that margins aren't as tight as they potentially could be. You need to be prepared to take some hits to make money, and whilst a 71 nearly being axed or services being re-routed in Stanley might not mean a lot to you, people rely on those services and negative impact will only ever push people towards private cars or taxis.
As others have said, enthusiasts can be too dismissive of how changes impacts others. We're supposed to be of the business of 'Bus Back Better' these days, and I'm afraid that I don't see how some of these changes fits in with that desire to grow passenger numbers.
I understand how these changes can impact people, I know people they have impacted, but if that route is basically in the red a lot then sometimes especially in these times they won't be able to operate especially with how the services are these days.
(17 Aug 2021, 8:05 pm)Andreos1 wrote [ -> ]I'm thinking the Quorums, Great Parks, Cobalts and Silverlinks of the world.
Appreciate there's Cramlington Town centre nearby, there's the mainline links and the new hospital too (not familiar with the schools).
You mention changing at the Regent Centre for a variety of other places. Would that be viable for a daily commute and/or getting little Jonny to school?
Car vs public transport and its proximity to the A1, A189 and A19, indicate to me that there's one immediate winner and unless ANE step it up (offering a viable alternative), I can't see much changing.
Particularly with all of the major supermarkets offering online delivery. Can't see that estate being made up of the bread and milk brigade.
Yeah I know what your saying, in fairness though the housing estate is in a bloody awkward place, I'm guessing the X9 will go through the housing estate though once it's built as I do believe there's going to built a road around which will loop around and connect to Beacon Hill. Schools wise though it's a 5 minute walk from Cramlington for the High School and the X9 would take you to Beacon Hill but once the roads built you could walk tbh.
Guessing it depends on where they're going with the Regent Centre change as congestion through Gosforth and the A1 can be absolute nightmare heading South (obviously you can make the argument where the cars coming from). Cramlington in general is quite well connected though really in general with the X8 to Quorum and the 19 for Cobalt / Silverlink. I know it's not ideal for commuting / retail but the links are there but most the stores at Silverlink can be found at Manor Walks anyway including a cinema.
I do know there's plans to try and move the railway station further South though and when the new roads are built there's another option to commute (if it happens), obviously that won't help Arriva though.
(17 Aug 2021, 8:06 pm)Keeiajs wrote [ -> ]I understand how these changes can impact people, I know people they have impacted, but if that route is basically in the red a lot then sometimes especially in these times they won't be able to operate especially with how the services are these days.
and that’s the crux of the impossible problem. Private companies with shareholders running public services Those routes that can’t be commercially run are then tendered into a race to the bottom.
Areas of low car ownership which tend to be lower end of demographics get a pretty poor service and those people are forced to interchange and spend more money on tickets whereas the higher end of the demographics likes of Low Fell, to an extent parts of Birtley and Chester and Durham get a great service.
(17 Aug 2021, 8:06 pm)Keeiajs wrote [ -> ]I understand how these changes can impact people, I know people they have impacted, but if that route is basically in the red a lot then sometimes especially in these times they won't be able to operate especially with how the services are these days.
Depends how you look at it though, one bus route in the red isn't the end of the world. For example let's take the 30 in Stanley. If 10 people use that bus and then connect to the X30 in Stanley then that's 10 passengers less on the X30 aswell so then that's at a loss aswell.
Another example could be now Peterlee with the loss of the 208 to Durham. Yes it might only have 10 passengers on but those 10 passengers on other days might only use the X6 to Sunderland or the X9 to Middlesbrough. Now without the link to Durham there's no purpose of using GNE and they'll just use Arriva instead aswell who offer all the links that they want further pushing the X6 into the red and it goes on, then you cut the X6 then local punters lose the quick link to Sunderland so that's more using the Arriva services. Next thing you know everything is making a loss and there's nothing left to cut.
I wouldn't be surprised if the likes of the Washington Locals, Little Coasters and 33, 38, 55 etc in Sunderland all barely make a profit (or make a loss) but they'll know that if they ditch them then the X1/2/4/8/50/78, 1/309/310/311 and 2/20/X20/35/39 would all take a massive hit as the punters will just choose Arriva or Stagecoach who offer better local links and also mostly offer the links of those services aswell which will put the whole network at a loss. Sadly every time there's network changes the same routes are fiddled around with which make them difficult to use for locals as one week it might exist, the next week it's gone which is no use when you rely on it for work. The routes around Silksworth, Howdon and the old 43/44 between Newcastle and Stanley have been particularly bad for that in recent times.
(17 Aug 2021, 8:58 pm)Ambassador wrote [ -> ]and that’s the crux of the impossible problem. Private companies with shareholders running public services Those routes that can’t be commercially run are then tendered into a race to the bottom.
I am sure nobody could accuse Reading Buses of being held hostage by shareholders, corporate higher ups or running cap in hand to the council for money (imagine that...)
And yet MG made some hefty cuts to services around an area called Caversham towards the end of his time down there, including whole Sunday services being ditched. With no shareholders to worry about, I wonder why those changes were made? Do you think it may be the same reason the changes up north are being made?
(17 Aug 2021, 9:28 pm)Storx wrote [ -> ]Depends how you look at it though, one bus route in the red isn't the end of the world. For example let's take the 30 in Stanley. If 10 people use that bus and then connect to the X30 in Stanley then that's 10 passengers less on the X30 aswell so then that's at a loss aswell.
Another example could be now Peterlee with the loss of the 208 to Durham. Yes it might only have 10 passengers on but those 10 passengers on other days might only use the X6 to Sunderland or the X9 to Middlesbrough. Now without the link to Durham there's no purpose of using GNE and they'll just use Arriva instead aswell who offer all the links that they want further pushing the X6 into the red and it goes on, then you cut the X6 then local punters lose the quick link to Sunderland so that's more using the Arriva services. Next thing you know everything is making a loss and there's nothing left to cut.
I wouldn't be surprised if the likes of the Washington Locals, Little Coasters and 33, 38, 55 etc in Sunderland all barely make a profit (or make a loss) but they'll know that if they ditch them then the X1/2/4/8/50/78, 1/309/310/311 and 2/20/X20/35/39 would all take a massive hit as the punters will just choose Arriva or Stagecoach who offer better local links and also mostly offer the links of those services aswell which will put the whole network at a loss. Sadly every time there's network changes the same routes are fiddled around with which make them difficult to use for locals as one week it might exist, the next week it's gone which is no use when you rely on it for work. The routes around Silksworth, Howdon and the old 43/44 between Newcastle and Stanley have been particularly bad for that in recent times.
I mean totally true and a good point which I never really thought of. I do think the Peterlee - Durham route will just help arriva personally I wouldn't have done that. I think the littl e coasters, and Washington Routes only make a loss on a evening as those are Nexus Supported afaik.
(17 Aug 2021, 9:34 pm)DeltaMan wrote [ -> ]I am sure nobody could accuse Reading Buses of being held hostage by shareholders, corporate higher ups or running cap in hand to the council for money (imagine that...)
And yet MG made some hefty cuts to services around an area called Caversham towards the end of his time down there, including whole Sunday services being ditched. With no shareholders to worry about, I wonder why those changes were made? Do you think it may be the same reason the changes up north are being made?
Im not sure of your point? You are missing the mark completely.
Shareholders or not, Reading Buses is run as an arms length division with the intention to make profits and make acquisitions (it does and has done both). It’s not being run as a charity and it suffers the same problems.
ask Wokingham borough council, since they had to fund the tendered services during the last run of cuts by Reading.
(17 Aug 2021, 9:36 pm)Keeiajs wrote [ -> ]I mean totally true and a good point which I never really thought of. I do think the Peterlee - Durham route will just help arriva personally I wouldn't have done that. I think the littl e coasters, and Washington Routes only make a loss on a evening as those are Nexus Supported afaik.
There’s a wider sense that Go North East have ‘given up’ in the Peterlee area. The article on the GNE site mentioned Arriva twice, both in reference to cuts in services in the Peterlee area and the alternative being use a rival operator. Wingate loses both the 202 and 55, both of which provided cross Peterlee connections and now the only GNE bus will be the reintroduced 206, which replaces the 55 south of Peterlee. But offers no cross town connections. The X7 is withdrawn, meaning the X6 is left as just an hourly service - no longer ‘XLINES’ so not promoted and being hourly means it doesn’t compete as much with the Arriva 22. And as mentioned they’ve removed the Durham to Peterlee link - handing passengers who may have chose GNE straight to Arriva. Although I accept Arriva do offer 4 buses per hour to Durham from Peterlee bus station.
They could have mitigated the changes more though and it feels like missed opportunities but I actually just wonder if GNE are cutting their loses. I’ve mentioned before that the X6 could have replaced the 202 from Peterlee to Station Town without the need to add another bus to the PVR. The X7 is withdrawn but at the same time they’ve added a new bus to Sunderland in the 62 service, which feels odd, I’m not sure who they’re expecting to use the 62 between Seaham and Sunderland? Easington and South Hetton would use the 55, Murton and Dalton Park the 61, most of Dawdon has the 60. Rather than send a new bus to Sunderland why not curtail the 62 at Seaham and have a half hourly X6 between Sunderland, Seaham, Dalton Park and Peterlee. And with Peterlee loosing their GNE service to Durham they could have promoted and timed the 55/65 to meet up in Hetton Bus Station, and promote the fact it’s more frequent than the 208 was although a change of bus is now required. Particularly for those in South Hetton and Easington Village this certainly would, or could, have mitigated the change.
(17 Aug 2021, 10:31 pm)Drifter60 wrote [ -> ]There’s a wider sense that Go North East have ‘given up’ in the Peterlee area. The article on the GNE site mentioned Arriva twice, both in reference to cuts in services in the Peterlee area and the alternative being use a rival operator. Wingate loses both the 202 and 55, both of which provided cross Peterlee connections and now the only GNE bus will be the reintroduced 206, which replaces the 55 south of Peterlee. But offers no cross town connections. The X7 is withdrawn, meaning the X6 is left as just an hourly service - no longer ‘XLINES’ so not promoted and being hourly means it doesn’t compete as much with the Arriva 22. And as mentioned they’ve removed the Durham to Peterlee link - handing passengers who may have chose GNE straight to Arriva. Although I accept Arriva do offer 4 buses per hour to Durham from Peterlee bus station.
They could have mitigated the changes more though and it feels like missed opportunities but I actually just wonder if GNE are cutting their loses. I’ve mentioned before that the X6 could have replaced the 202 from Peterlee to Station Town without the need to add another bus to the PVR. The X7 is withdrawn but at the same time they’ve added a new bus to Sunderland in the 62 service, which feels odd, I’m not sure who they’re expecting to use the 62 between Seaham and Sunderland? Easington and South Hetton would use the 55, Murton and Dalton Park the 61, most of Dawdon has the 60. Rather than send a new bus to Sunderland why not curtail the 62 at Seaham and have a half hourly X6 between Sunderland, Seaham, Dalton Park and Peterlee. And with Peterlee loosing their GNE service to Durham they could have promoted and timed the 55/65 to meet up in Hetton Bus Station, and promote the fact it’s more frequent than the 208 was although a change of bus is now required. Particularly for those in South Hetton and Easington Village this certainly would, or could, have mitigated the change.
I mean I must say the X6 was become more popular recently, but I do agree that GNE is giving up on Peterlee which is a shame. I think GNE could have beat arriva's 22/23/24 however they never really tried. The 208 was like the 3rd most popular service of indiGO Peterlee brand.