(02 Apr 2022, 3:11 pm)OrangeArrow49 wrote [ -> ]What's changing on the X85 on Monday?
The afternoon journey seemingly withdrawn if the timetable on Nexus is to be believed. Presumably because the morning journey can fit in with interworking with the AD122 (one turn doesn't start until 09:10) whereas the afternoon journey can't.
Surely any Riverside school board could run the afternoon X85?
I'd imagine that X85 journey is commerically viable aswell
(02 Apr 2022, 3:58 pm)peter wrote [ -> ]The afternoon journey seemingly withdrawn if the timetable on Nexus is to be believed. Presumably because the morning journey can fit in with interworking with the AD122 (one turn doesn't start until 09:10) whereas the afternoon journey can't.
GNE site still showing it as operating assuming you are referring to the 1720 one?
Tell you what the evening runs of the 82/84/84A are a joke, noticed last night whilst getting a few photos that you have a 84/84A at xx:58/xx:28 to Rickleton then you have an 82 to Birtley at xx:06/xx:36 which runs off the 85, where is the justification in having two "minibus" services within 6 minutes of each other, following this you then have the 2 at xx13 to Silksworth then the 50 to Chester-Le-Street at xx:16. So you have 4 buses within 18 minutes of each other to Lambton/Ayton & Harraton with a then 12 minute gap till the next 82/84/84A cycle followed by a 30 minute gap where you'd then repeat the same cycle again.
I can't understand why Go North East could not have the 2 or the 82 additionally serve Harraton and Rickleton on an Evening covering this section of the 84/84A as I can remember going back to the days of the 638 that used to do this on an Evening, Alternatively you could have 84/84A extend from Rickleton to Birtley covering this section of the 82.
Any changes would require a change in interworking pattern as currently they interwork at Washington Galleries to them instead interwork at Concord so the driver would do the following:
84/84A - Birtley to Concord / 85 - Concord to Washington Galleries / 85 - Washington Galleries to Concord / 84/84A - Concord to Birtley
Either way you'd reduce resource required to operate the services. I did also note a few drivers were being supervised last night as they'd not done these routes before.
(03 Apr 2022, 3:53 pm)Malarkey wrote [ -> ]Tell you what the evening runs of the 82/84/84A are a joke, noticed last night whilst getting a few photos that you have a 84/84A at xx:58/xx:28 to Rickleton then you have an 82 to Birtley at xx:06/xx:36 which runs off the 85, where is the justification in having two "minibus" services within 6 minutes of each other, following this you then have the 2 at xx13 to Silksworth then the 50 to Chester-Le-Street at xx:16. So you have 4 buses within 18 minutes of each other to Lambton/Ayton & Harraton with a then 12 minute gap till the next 82/84/84A cycle followed by a 30 minute gap where you'd then repeat the same cycle again.
I can't understand why Go North East could not have the 2 or the 82 additionally serve Harraton and Rickleton on an Evening covering this section of the 84/84A as I can remember going back to the days of the 638 that used to do this on an Evening, Alternatively you could have 84/84A extend from Rickleton to Birtley covering this section of the 82.
Any changes would require a change in interworking pattern as currently they interwork at Washington Galleries to them instead interwork at Concord so the driver would do the following:
84/84A - Birtley to Concord / 85 - Concord to Washington Galleries / 85 - Washington Galleries to Concord / 84/84A - Concord to Birtley
Either way you'd reduce resource required to operate the services. I did also note a few drivers were being supervised last night as they'd not done these routes before.
Also 2 & 8 leave for Sunderland/Silksworth within like 10 mins of each other
Evening 50s from Chester-le-Street to Washington (and beyond) are timed at xx.45 and the 8 to Washington (and on to Sunderland) is xx.49
Being a cynic, I'd suggest we'll sooner or later see one of the two axed 'due to low use', despite them having more of a fighting chance if more evenly spread across the clock-face.
(03 Apr 2022, 7:45 pm)Adrian wrote [ -> ]Evening 50s from Chester-le-Street to Washington (and beyond) are timed at xx.45 and the 8 to Washington (and on to Sunderland) is xx.49
Being a cynic, I'd suggest we'll sooner or later see one of the two axed 'due to low use', despite them having more of a fighting chance if more evenly spread across the clock-face.
I think we’re proving here that there are services which cross multiple corridors - and not all can be given an even headway.
Something like the 50 probably aims to provide an even headway between Durham and Chester-le-Street with the 21, Chester-le-Street and Washington with the 8, Concord and Nissan on the 56, and Boldon to South Shields with the 5.
Truth be told it’s impossible to have them all coordinated, especially as evening timetables are formed from daytime schedules which are largely driven by stand availability in congested bus stations.
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(03 Apr 2022, 7:45 pm)Adrian wrote [ -> ]Evening 50s from Chester-le-Street to Washington (and beyond) are timed at xx.45 and the 8 to Washington (and on to Sunderland) is xx.49
Being a cynic, I'd suggest we'll sooner or later see one of the two axed 'due to low use', despite them having more of a fighting chance if more evenly spread across the clock-face.
You cannot inter-time services with uneven round trip times unless you are prepared to have a load of inefficiency.
The round trip running times from Chester to South Shields and Chester to Sunderland means you cannot coordinate them between Washington and Chester unless you have one of the buses sitting at either Sunderland or South Shields for half an hour.
(03 Apr 2022, 8:26 pm)DeltaMan wrote [ -> ]You cannot inter-time services with uneven round trip times unless you are prepared to have a load of inefficiency.
The round trip running times from Chester to South Shields and Chester to Sunderland means you cannot coordinate them between Washington and Chester unless you have one of the buses sitting at either Sunderland or South Shields for half an hour.
Can't or won't? Does the operator serve the customer, or does the customer serve the operator?
The frequency of buses, and especially on an evening, is one of the big reasons why people don't want to use them or switch from their car. It feels like operators want people to change their travel habits, but are seldom prepared to change their own habits.
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(03 Apr 2022, 8:43 pm)Adrian wrote [ -> ]Can't or won't? Does the operator serve the customer, or does the customer serve the operator?
The frequency of buses, and especially on an evening, is one of the big reasons why people don't want to use them or switch from their car. It feels like operators want people to change their travel habits, but are seldom prepared to change their own habits.
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Its a balancing act, as in the case of all bus operation, time is literally money.
Similar thing occured to me when I was using TFL buses on an evening a while back, resulting in a 28 minute wait as the two buses didn't connect at a common terminus point.
The other thing i'd say is that most drivers do not like lates. Indeed, there are plenty of independent operators out there that make a point of stating they don't operate lates in job ads. So that is something else that operators need to be mindful of.
(03 Apr 2022, 9:41 pm)DeltaMan wrote [ -> ]Its a balancing act, as in the case of all bus operation, time is literally money.
Similar thing occured to me when I was using TFL buses on an evening a while back, resulting in a 28 minute wait as the two buses didn't connect at a common terminus point.
The other thing i'd say is that most drivers do not like lates. Indeed, there are plenty of independent operators out there that make a point of stating they don't operate lates in job ads. So that is something else that operators need to be mindful of.
28mins? That's like a dream to some punters up in the NE! Don't go shouting about it. People will get jealous!
As for the first point. Time is money, but if people aren't using buses on an evening, then those supposed money saving strategies you mention aren't really working.
If it is about making things more attractive and encouraging people to use public transport - getting rid of almost hour long waits on the way by organising the headway, then maybe they need to start making the hit with that waiting time OR looking at other options to make it work. Something different and creative perhaps.
(04 Apr 2022, 8:23 am)Andreos1 wrote [ -> ]28mins? That's like a dream to some punters up in the NE! Don't go shouting about it. People will get jealous!
As for the first point. Time is money, but if people aren't using buses on an evening, then those supposed money saving strategies you mention aren't really working.
If it is about making things more attractive and encouraging people to use public transport - getting rid of almost hour long waits on the way by organising the headway, then maybe they need to start making the hit with that waiting time OR looking at other options to make it work. Something different and creative perhaps.
The point I was making that even in the exemplar of a "coordinated" transport system, I have experienced first hand the issues many complain about up here. And its down to simple maths.
The main issue with late buses, especially around some parts of the North East if we are being honest, is anti social behavior. If I was a non bus users and kept reading about buses being bricked and anti social behavior at interchanges, why would I put myself in a position of harm? And thats before the timetable is even looked at. That alone means public transport is last resort for many.
There is a service suggestion thread, so the floor is yours if you have better idea of potential late night route cycles...
(04 Apr 2022, 9:19 am)DeltaMan wrote [ -> ]The point I was making that even in the exemplar of a "coordinated" transport system, I have experienced first hand the issues many complain about up here. And its down to simple maths.
The main issue with late buses, especially around some parts of the North East if we are being honest, is anti social behavior. If I was a non bus users and kept reading about buses being bricked and anti social behavior at interchanges, why would I put myself in a position of harm? And thats before the timetable is even looked at. That alone means public transport is last resort for many.
There is a service suggestion thread, so the floor is yours if you have better idea of potential late night route cycles...
I'm not sure it is the main issue to be honest. It's certainly an issue for some, but hanging around waiting the best part of an hour or looking at alternatives is probably a bigger issue.
As is actually being able to get a bus (assuming it hasn't been axed because there's not enough money in it for the operator).
Which in the hub and spoke model operated by the likes of GNE, has a knock on effect to the core routes such as the 21. If there's no buses to connect to (or an hours wait for a connection), then it reduces the likely hood of x number of people using the 21.
Regardless of bricks or anti-social behaviour.
I mentioned internal and external factors the other day. I think we all agree that external factors are out of the operators control. They can't stop a brick being thrown in the direction of a bus.
However those internal factors such as timetabling and ensuring passengers don't have to wait an hour are within their control.
It's whether they choose to do something about it.
(03 Apr 2022, 9:41 pm)DeltaMan wrote [ -> ]Its a balancing act, as in the case of all bus operation, time is literally money.
Similar thing occured to me when I was using TFL buses on an evening a while back, resulting in a 28 minute wait as the two buses didn't connect at a common terminus point.
The other thing i'd say is that most drivers do not like lates. Indeed, there are plenty of independent operators out there that make a point of stating they don't operate lates in job ads. So that is something else that operators need to be mindful of.
It
should be a balancing act, but more often than not, it's completely imbalanced in the favour of operators. It's something that needs to change in my opinion, getting back to the purpose of operation in the first place: serving customers.
It's not just most drivers that don't like lates. Most people that I know or work with will say the same about lates and night shifts, or even weekends for that matter. Any business needs to serve demand though, so if there's a need for more evening buses, it would be stupid to ignore that. You can't expect customers to only want to travel when you want to serve them.
(04 Apr 2022, 8:23 am)Andreos1 wrote [ -> ]28mins? That's like a dream to some punters up in the NE! Don't go shouting about it. People will get jealous!
As for the first point. Time is money, but if people aren't using buses on an evening, then those supposed money saving strategies you mention aren't really working.
If it is about making things more attractive and encouraging people to use public transport - getting rid of almost hour long waits on the way by organising the headway, then maybe they need to start making the hit with that waiting time OR looking at other options to make it work. Something different and creative perhaps.
There needs to be something. During the day it's generally ideal, and you're never waiting too long for a connection, or at least you can generally avoid it by planning your route. It's a complete contrast on an evening, and there's nothing more unattractive about using public transport, than being stood out in the cold, open to the elements, for an extended wait for a connecting bus.
(04 Apr 2022, 9:19 am)DeltaMan wrote [ -> ]The point I was making that even in the exemplar of a "coordinated" transport system, I have experienced first hand the issues many complain about up here. And its down to simple maths.
The main issue with late buses, especially around some parts of the North East if we are being honest, is anti social behavior. If I was a non bus users and kept reading about buses being bricked and anti social behavior at interchanges, why would I put myself in a position of harm? And thats before the timetable is even looked at. That alone means public transport is last resort for many.
There is a service suggestion thread, so the floor is yours if you have better idea of potential late night route cycles...
Anti-social behaviour is a major problem, I agree, and one that probably needs a mutli-agency approach to deal with. I don't think the answer is to avoid after dusk running though. Operators are doing their part by running the services, so it's really up to Nexus, the Councils and the Police to tackle the anti-social behaviour and to offer some kind of deterrent, especially in bus stations.
Washington Galleries, for example, is a nightmare on an evening. I was there one evening last week waiting for a connection, and you had dogs running around whilst their owners were drinking, some drunk lasses faffing about on the escalators, kids riding around on their bikes shouting and screaming. You can see why it would deter people from public transport, but some people have no choice.
(04 Apr 2022, 10:47 am)Adrian wrote [ -> ]There needs to be something. During the day it's generally ideal, and you're never waiting too long for a connection, or at least you can generally avoid it by planning your route. It's a complete contrast on an evening, and there's nothing more unattractive about using public transport, than being stood out in the cold, open to the elements, for an extended wait for a connecting bus.
Yes, I had to wait for a 56 because delays on the Metro resulted in me missing the last train home. The 40 minute wait in Newcastle City Centre in the middle of January was not fun, and that's not factoring in everyone who was slightly tipsy and shouting on a night out. Having said that, I am thankful that the 56
does run all night now - don't know what I'd have done otherwise (and now I get it most nights with a 5-10 min wait if Metro's on time - I don't mind paying a little more for a slightly longer journey if it means I get dropped off a bit closer to my flat).
(04 Apr 2022, 10:35 am)Andreos1 wrote [ -> ]I'm not sure it is the main issue to be honest. It's certainly an issue for some, but hanging around waiting the best part of an hour or looking at alternatives is probably a bigger issue.
As is actually being able to get a bus (assuming it hasn't been axed because there's not enough money in it for the operator).
Which in the hub and spoke model operated by the likes of GNE, has a knock on effect to the core routes such as the 21. If there's no buses to connect to (or an hours wait for a connection), then it reduces the likely hood of x number of people using the 21.
Regardless of bricks or anti-social behaviour.
I mentioned internal and external factors the other day. I think we all agree that external factors are out of the operators control. They can't stop a brick being thrown in the direction of a bus.
However those internal factors such as timetabling and ensuring passengers don't have to wait an hour are within their control.
It's whether they choose to do something about it.
Its a fair point about connections with the 21 specifically where an improvement to evenings would be possible with a very minor change.
I hate to use this example, but the 71 from Chester has a very optimistic connection with the 21 from Durham. Assuming the 71 is one bus in the evenings (which according to the timetable, it should be) surely that could leave a couple of minutes later from Chester and save folk a 40 or 58 minute wait.
I can't see any reason why that couldnt happen. It would still meet the 20 to/from Sunderland
So operators need to look at quick wins like that in the evenings before expanding late services
When I used to get the bus to work i got the bus to Sainsburys team valley and it was timed to get there 2 minutes after the 94 was due to leave which was the bus i needed to get to work. So standing in the cold and wet for 15 minutes ( hopefully ) for the next one which with my luck tended to be late! In the car i would be at work in 10 minutes
When I go out, I have a 14 minute wait at Monument because the train from Sunderland arrives 1 minute after the train to Shields leaves (connection time from the 56 is 3 or 4 minutes - far from ideal either). It's made worse by the fact the departure board on Monument Upper is wildly inaccurate until the train's arrived.