So we’ll out this one down to vague annoyance (and Adrian or other mods feel free to move) but I’m wondering why GNEs Haymarket services (and I suppose Arrivas) don’t just terminate at St Mary’s Place as they very rarely if ever continue onto Haymarket.
I’ve been giving the bus a go this past few weeks using the 309/X39 (the latter with really positive loadings) and on return to town, without fail driver pulls up, engine off. So unless you fancy 5-10 minutes on sitting awkwardly - you just get off.
Doesn’t seem to be as prevalent with arriva but once you add the stopping 21s and Stagecoach services, it becomes a bit crowded.
So are GNE timings all to pot, my X39 was ten minutes early into town (this happened pre covid too) or is this just a reality of serving a capacity limited city centre bus station, in which case, stop telling passengers you’re going to Haymarket?
(22 Feb 2022, 10:29 pm)Ambassador wrote [ -> ]So we’ll out this one down to vague annoyance (and Adrian or other mods feel free to move) but I’m wondering why GNEs Haymarket services (and I suppose Arrivas) don’t just terminate at St Mary’s Place as they very rarely if ever continue onto Haymarket.
I’ve been giving the bus a go this past few weeks using the 309/X39 (the latter with really positive loadings) and on return to town, without fail driver pulls up, engine off. So unless you fancy 5-10 minutes on sitting awkwardly - you just get off.
Doesn’t seem to be as prevalent with arriva but once you add the stopping 21s and Stagecoach services, it becomes a bit crowded.
So are GNE timings all to pot, my X39 was ten minutes early into town (this happened pre covid too) or is this just a reality of serving a capacity limited city centre bus station, in which case, stop telling passengers you’re going to Haymarket?
The 306/308 share a stand and the 309/310/311 share a stand.
There's absolute no wiggle room, the 308 is due on the stand when the 306 is expected to leave so if they get early there's absolutely no point in going in early as they'll grind Haymarket to a halt.
Same with the 309/310/311 who have it even tighter with 3 services with the 309 due in before the 311 leaves so it will always be late. Blame the awful design of Haymarket for the problems with no standing space but GNE's timetable doesn't work either.
Funnily enough before the world of COVID if not before then, time at St Mary's Place was a far cry from luxury during the peaks for the 309/310 & X39. Before the Silverlink interchange was completed, running delayed sometimes up to 90 minutes in the most severe circumstances wasn't uncommon.
I don't often venture north of the Tyne, but a couple months back I went on a little jaunt on the 309/310, on the way back I didn't realise that the bus sat there for ages, so I was sat upstairs like an absolute lemon waiting for it to go to Haymarket.
I feel like there should at least be an announcement that goes something along the lines of "This bus will continue on to Haymarket, however due to limited capacity there may be a short wait"
They DO go into Haymarket, once there's a stand available in there for them. The driver will often tell you if they're expecting to wait a while, or they'll turn the engine off, at which point you can decide whether or not you want the longer walk or you're happy to sit in a comfortable (ish!) seat and wait. I'm usually happy to just wait, and I wouldn't want to be arbitrarily turfed off the bus at St Marys Place, causing me a longer walk than necessary as I'll be transferring onto another service.
(23 Feb 2022, 9:23 am)Ianthegoon wrote [ -> ]They DO go into Haymarket, once there's a stand available in there for them. The driver will often tell you if they're expecting to wait a while, or they'll turn the engine off, at which point you can decide whether or not you want the longer walk or you're happy to sit in a comfortable (ish!) seat and wait. I'm usually happy to just wait, and I wouldn't want to be arbitrarily turfed off the bus at St Marys Place, causing me a longer walk than necessary as I'll be transferring onto another service.
exactly this. many a time I've got an arriva service from north Gosforth and the driver shout we will be her a while/5 minutes etc and that normally when everyone piles off at the civic centre.
I used to be a regular Coast Rd bus commuter and this issue annoyed me too.
Also, more often than not, once at St Mary’s Place on the GNE services the driver would also set the destination for the return leg, so the NSAs made it sound like the service had terminated there and wouldn’t be going any further.
For some reason gne take forever at St Mary's Place to get to Haymarket yet arriva will arrive then go straight into Haymarket. Probably doesn't help when a 309 & 311 arrive at the same time
(23 Feb 2022, 10:42 am)Train8261 wrote [ -> ]For some reason gne take forever at St Mary's Place to get to Haymarket yet arriva will arrive then go straight into Haymarket. Probably doesn't help when a 309 & 311 arrive at the same time
Do they not wait till they see a 309/310 or 311 at the lights turning onto St Mary's before they move.
During the day, Arriva give 11 mins between Corner House and Haymarket, while GNE give 10 mins. To me that seems a reasonable run time, so maybe there is an early running issue? The X39 is a bit more difficult to judge to be fair due to its limuted stop nature.
(23 Feb 2022, 10:49 am)Omega54 wrote [ -> ]Do they not wait till they see a 309/310 or 311 at the lights turning onto St Mary's before they move.
Pretty much this.
On the way towards St Mary's we observe which buses we can see in front of us and which ones are going past in the opposite direction, that way we know whether we need to wait at St Marys or not.
We could easily go straight into Haymarket regardless of what we see but it isnt going to make any difference to passengers because if the bus before is still on the stand then either way we now still need to wait pretty much the same amount of time as we would have had we waited at St Marys, difference being that you now definitely cant get off why we wait at the top of the stands and in doing so could probably be blocking buses from reversing off or getting on to their own stand.
Thats why we wait
We change destination display at St Marys because they are supposed to be changed, in theory, while stationary, so cant do it when we are entering haymarket. Changing it when we get on stand will cause delays and confusion to passengers getting on the bus while they wait for the blind to update and if they dont know that mostly if it arrives as 309 it then goes out as 310 etc it just removes any issues
(23 Feb 2022, 11:17 am)soxet12 wrote [ -> ]We change destination display at St Marys because they are supposed to be changed, in theory, while stationary, so cant do it when we are entering haymarket. Changing it when we get on stand will cause delays and confusion to passengers getting on the bus while they wait for the blind to update and if they dont know that mostly if it arrives as 309 it then goes out as 310 etc it just removes any issues
Equally that could cause confusion to unfamiliar passengers or blind/partially sighted already onboard.
Not sure what the solution is then.
In theory those waiting at Haymarket should see the service arriving is for Haymarket and terminating - and check what the destination screen reads once changed to the outbound journey. In theory.
Clearly GNE allow too much running time if buses are always sitting in St Marys Place, or drivers are running early.
GNE seem to lose out in the Haymarket as very rarely is there not a bus on the Arriva 306/308 stand but often the GNE 309/10/11 stand is empty, GNE drivers waiting in St Marys Place until they see the bus in front coming out and then pull round.
I use Coast Road services a lot. It seems to me that most people get off at St Mary’s Place as it’s handy for Northumberland St, the few who stay on are aware of the wait. Returning passengers wait in the Haymarket as it’s sheltered. Can’t see the problem.
(23 Feb 2022, 2:15 pm)RMF1254 wrote [ -> ]I use Coast Road services a lot. It seems to me that most people get off at St Mary’s Place as it’s handy for Northumberland St, the few who stay on are aware of the wait. Returning passengers wait in the Haymarket as it’s sheltered. Can’t see the problem.
That’s because of the delay.
Especially during poor weather, surely numerous passengers would prefer to get off into the shelter of Haymarket Bus Station and straight into Eldon Sq Shopping Centre without facing the elements, but of course they’ve become used to be bus sitting at St Mary’s for an unknown amount of time, hence they just get off.
(23 Feb 2022, 2:29 pm)ne14ne1 wrote [ -> ]That’s because of the delay.
Especially during poor weather, surely numerous passengers would prefer to get off into the shelter of Haymarket Bus Station and straight into Eldon Sq Shopping Centre without facing the elements, but of course they’ve become used to be bus sitting at St Mary’s for an unknown amount of time, hence they just get off.
That’s not what the OP inferred - the OP suggested that customers alight at St Mary’s Place because it’s a more convenient stop for Northumberland Street, in their experience. You are surmising it’s because of the layover time it has.
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(23 Feb 2022, 3:04 pm)Dan wrote [ -> ]That’s not what the OP inferred - the OP suggested that customers alight at St Mary’s Place because it’s a more convenient stop for Northumberland Street, in their experience. You are surmising it’s because of the layover time it has.
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I'd have thought there were more choices for passengers than just Northumberland St though.
Granted there's going to be some demand, but I'd hazard a guess that passengers are wanting to be at one of the two Universities (maybe even the College). The Civic Centre is a popular destination too as is SJP when there's a match on. You've then got those punters who are looking to change buses at either Haymarket or Eldon Square.
A message on the on board announcement even as it came along Sandyford Road would surely eliminate any confusion
(23 Feb 2022, 3:46 pm)Andreos1 wrote [ -> ]A message on the on board announcement even as it came along Sandyford Road would surely eliminate any confusion
This additional announcement was suggested by the driving team some time ago, mainly as a Covid-related concern so the driver didn’t have to leave their cab to advise any remaining customers of the potential wait, and is still on the list of things to be programmed.
A lot of work has been done recently on the next stop announcement systems, as posted elsewhere on the forum, so I wouldn’t be too surprised if this was due to be added shortly.
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(23 Feb 2022, 4:44 pm)Dan wrote [ -> ]This additional announcement was suggested by the driving team some time ago, mainly as a Covid-related concern so the driver didn’t have to leave their cab to advise any remaining customers of the potential wait, and is still on the list of things to be programmed.
A lot of work has been done recently on the next stop announcement systems, as posted elsewhere on the forum, so I wouldn’t be too surprised if this was due to be added shortly.
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Was on the X1 yesterday the changes to the PIS are really good, glad to see the date/time and also how many stops till the terminus.
Isn't Stand Y a set down stand at Haymarket? So if St Mary's Place isn't a timing point (which I doubt it is), shouldn't the bus continue and set down on Y and then either move onto stand or go around if the stand isn't available?
(23 Feb 2022, 4:44 pm)Dan wrote [ -> ]This additional announcement was suggested by the driving team some time ago, mainly as a Covid-related concern so the driver didn’t have to leave their cab to advise any remaining customers of the potential wait, and is still on the list of things to be programmed.
A lot of work has been done recently on the next stop announcement systems, as posted elsewhere on the forum, so I wouldn’t be too surprised if this was due to be added shortly.
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Nowt like being on the ball!
Thank goodness for drivers! That's the X20 and this idea they can claim credit for.
(23 Feb 2022, 4:44 pm)Dan wrote [ -> ]This additional announcement was suggested by the driving team some time ago, mainly as a Covid-related concern so the driver didn’t have to leave their cab to advise any remaining customers of the potential wait, and is still on the list of things to be programmed.
A lot of work has been done recently on the next stop announcement systems, as posted elsewhere on the forum, so I wouldn’t be too surprised if this was due to be added shortly.
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I'm not sure why the 309/10/11 need to wait in St Marys Place unless they are either running early or have too much running time.
The 21, X1, 10, X45 etc don't wait at their last stop before the terminus.
(23 Feb 2022, 8:37 pm)busmanT wrote [ -> ]I'm not sure why the 309/10/11 need to wait in St Marys Place unless they are either running early or have too much running time.
The 21, X1, 10, X45 etc don't wait at their last stop before the terminus.
Presumably they have a touch too much running time, having fairly recently had an extra bus added back into the PVR, but there was not sufficient running and/or layover time on the 15 PVR schedule.
The 21, X1, 10 and X45 etc all go to Eldon Square Bus Station where there is a dedicated drop-off stand and several layover bays - I’m not sure operators using Haymarket Bus Station have that same luxury.
Haymarket is heavily congested and whenever I pass through there seems to be a lot of Arriva buses dumped on stands.
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(23 Feb 2022, 8:13 pm)Adrian wrote [ -> ]Isn't Stand Y a set down stand at Haymarket? So if St Mary's Place isn't a timing point (which I doubt it is), shouldn't the bus continue and set down on Y and then either move onto stand or go around if the stand isn't available?
There's not really anywhere for the buses to go that's the thing after. It's a shame they couldn't use the road behind and narrow it down to 1 lane heading towards Eldon Square and use the extra space for Haymarket. Something like this:
![[Image: haymarket.png]](https://i.ibb.co/F8wjpNY/haymarket.png)
Would give suitable place for buses queuing to get out, layover spaces which don't exist atm with the drop off moved to a new Stand Z and if there's queues for Eldon Square then the Eldon Square buses could easily just cut through Haymarket with less priority for traffic along Percy Street towards Eldon Square giving more time for buses crossing into Eldon Square and leaving Haymarket.
Be a massive improvement, not to mention buses coming in can still get to their stands when there's a queue to get out.
(23 Feb 2022, 8:47 pm)Dan wrote [ -> ]Presumably they have a touch too much running time, having fairly recently had an extra bus added back into the PVR, but there was not sufficient running and/or layover time on the 15 PVR schedule.
The 21, X1, 10 and X45 etc all go to Eldon Square Bus Station where there is a dedicated drop-off stand and several layover bays - I’m not sure operators using Haymarket Bus Station have that same luxury.
Haymarket is heavily congested and whenever I pass through there seems to be a lot of Arriva buses dumped on stands.
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As the buses are scheduled to arrive the same time as the previous one departs I could understand buses perhaps waiting for a minute or so in St Marys Place but they often wait for 4 or 5 minutes which implies either excessive early running or leaving the stand without a bus for several minutes.
Apart from the set down stand Y, stands R (Q3) and T (46) in Haymarket are often vacant having only 4 departures per hour.
(23 Feb 2022, 8:47 pm)Dan wrote [ -> ]Presumably they have a touch too much running time, having fairly recently had an extra bus added back into the PVR, but there was not sufficient running and/or layover time on the 15 PVR schedule.
The 21, X1, 10 and X45 etc all go to Eldon Square Bus Station where there is a dedicated drop-off stand and several layover bays - I’m not sure operators using Haymarket Bus Station have that same luxury.
Haymarket is heavily congested and whenever I pass through there seems to be a lot of Arriva buses dumped on stands.
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Very rarely on stands used by GNE and in my experience it’s the GNE Coast Rd services that cause the hold ups, blocking free passage, by waiting for the previous GNE bus to clear the stand
(23 Feb 2022, 8:13 pm)Adrian wrote [ -> ]Isn't Stand Y a set down stand at Haymarket? So if St Mary's Place isn't a timing point (which I doubt it is), shouldn't the bus continue and set down on Y and then either move onto stand or go around if the stand isn't available?
There is always a Arriva bus on it.
Eldon Square is bad enough for layover - even worse now that the taxis are back camping on Prudhoe Place. Haymarket doesn't have room for layover and even if you extended the bus station back into the road, you'd still find it quickly clogged either by dumped buses or the road outside would be heavily congested making it difficult to access from the Eldon Square direction when people inevitably cross into the box junction. Maybe reverse the direction of the bus station to make looping round easier?
If you chop the running time or layover period at the Newcastle end, you're just going to damage customer confidence in terms of punctuality when the bus station is at a standstill because it only takes 1 or 2 late running buses to cause problems.
Unfortunately, it's catch 22 and it stems back to the council's lack of foresight for the bus users of the city. What used to be 4 bus stations in the city is now two plus a crowded and exposed smattering of stops on Market Street.
If the council is taking public transport seriously, I can't help but wonder if they gave consideration to building a bus station on the site of the Stack (old Odeon) where the majority of Market Street services could terminate. Wouldn't exactly be the biggest station, but it would certainly ease congestion in the other locations while still providing a service along the far end of Market Street.
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(24 Feb 2022, 1:10 am)6049 wrote [ -> ]Eldon Square is bad enough for layover - even worse now that the taxis are back camping on Prudhoe Place. Haymarket doesn't have room for layover and even if you extended the bus station back into the road, you'd still find it quickly clogged either by dumped buses or the road outside would be heavily congested making it difficult to access from the Eldon Square direction when people inevitably cross into the box junction. Maybe reverse the direction of the bus station to make looping round easier?
If you chop the running time or layover period at the Newcastle end, you're just going to damage customer confidence in terms of punctuality when the bus station is at a standstill because it only takes 1 or 2 late running buses to cause problems.
Unfortunately, it's catch 22 and it stems back to the council's lack of foresight for the bus users of the city. What used to be 4 bus stations in the city is now two plus a crowded and exposed smattering of stops on Market Street.
If the council is taking public transport seriously, I can't help but wonder if they gave consideration to building a bus station on the site of the Stack (old Odeon) where the majority of Market Street services could terminate. Wouldn't exactly be the biggest station, but it would certainly ease congestion in the other locations while still providing a service along the far end of Market Street.
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You couldn't do that as it's impossible as there's not enough space to have the stands vertical so you'd end up with people getting off in the complete wrong place and having to walk inbetween buses / you'd lose a few stands. Probably would be better though.
(24 Feb 2022, 7:54 am)Storx wrote [ -> ]You couldn't do that as it's impossible as there's not enough space to have the stands vertical so you'd end up with people getting off in the complete wrong place and having to walk inbetween buses / you'd lose a few stands. Probably would be better though.
Huh? You listed reasons why it couldn’t be done and would make it worse (which I agree with), then end with ‘probably would be better though’????
(24 Feb 2022, 1:10 am)6049 wrote [ -> ]Unfortunately, it's catch 22 and it stems back to the council's lack of foresight for the bus users of the city. What used to be 4 bus stations in the city is now two plus a crowded and exposed smattering of stops on Market Street.
If the council is taking public transport seriously, I can't help but wonder if they gave consideration to building a bus station on the site of the Stack (old Odeon) where the majority of Market Street services could terminate. Wouldn't exactly be the biggest station, but it would certainly ease congestion in the other locations while still providing a service along the far end of Market Street.
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Does the council have any responsibility over bus stations? Is it not the Passenger Transport Executive’s, I.e Nexus?
NCC doesn’t own the land where Stack sits. The land owners have plans for the site, Pilgrims Quarter, and rightly so. That prime land is too high value to be used as a bus station.
See previous discussions in the Bus Infrastructure part of the forum in regards to Market St:
https://northeastbuses.co.uk/forum/showt...p?tid=3750