North East Buses

(31 Oct 2022, 9:27 pm)ne14ne1 wrote [ -> ]Have they finally started debranding the QuayLinkCity Versas!?

Yes a few done so far

(31 Oct 2022, 9:20 pm)Dan wrote [ -> ]Depends who the target market is, I think.

The £26k salary might appeal to office workers, but I think the £12.83/hr wage appeals more to retail workers (and as we head into the Christmas season, I suspect a lot of retail workers will be looking to jump ship!)


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Unless those retail workers hold a PCV licence, then they won't be getting £12.83ph until January 2024 at the earliest!

(31 Oct 2022, 9:20 pm)Dan wrote [ -> ]Depends who the target market is, I think.

The £26k salary might appeal to office workers, but I think the £12.83/hr wage appeals more to retail workers (and as we head into the Christmas season, I suspect a lot of retail workers will be looking to jump ship!)


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Not sure retail workers will be the first to want to be a bus driver because they're sick of retail as it's no doubt either customers or management they're sick of which being a bus driver will also be the same two issues bar the customer's are even bigger arse holes.

(31 Oct 2022, 9:27 pm)ne14ne1 wrote [ -> ]Have they finally started debranding the QuayLinkCity Versas!?

 
Guess so: https://flic.kr/p/2nWyYoF

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(01 Nov 2022, 11:43 am)Blockybus wrote [ -> ]Yes a few done so far

Ah just seen this.
Cheers

(01 Nov 2022, 11:50 am)omnicity4659 wrote [ -> ]Unless those retail workers hold a PCV licence, then they won't be getting £12.83ph until January 2024 at the earliest!

I heard their recruitment ad on local radio and again no mention of the £11/hr starting rate for the first year, only the higher rate, which is false advertising. At least Stagecoach are up front about it in their radio ads.

(01 Nov 2022, 11:50 am)omnicity4659 wrote [ -> ]Unless those retail workers hold a PCV licence, then they won't be getting £12.83ph until January 2024 at the earliest!

So there's a starting rate and then a possible increase more than 12 months down the line?

(03 Nov 2022, 5:23 pm)Andreos1 wrote [ -> ]So there's a starting rate and then a possible increase more than 12 months down the line?

Starting rate of £11 per hour, which is the best out of the big three at the moment. Increases to £12.83 per hour after a year of holding a PCV licence.

If they were to apply now, they'd have to send their forms off to DVLA following a medical, which could be 1-2 weeks wait time to be seen, then the 3 weeks wait for the licence to come back, training commences (not sure if that's £11ph?). At the end of that, which is looking at January/February next year, it's then 12 months until they're placed on top rate - so January or February 2024.

Definitely misleading but crafty to poach potential applicants from Stagecoach, who as of today offer £10.91ph to new starters and £13.08ph after a year.

I have to say, I'm not surprised retention is a problem. On two occasions this week, I've witnessed a "mentor" sitting at the back of the bus, yelling insturctions down the saloon. On an another occasion, a mentor was sat with his workmates gossiping about the driver he was supposed to be looking after. Not very professional and not a good impression to give a new starter....

(03 Nov 2022, 5:20 pm)Driver9*** wrote [ -> ]I heard their recruitment ad on local radio and again no mention of the £11/hr starting rate for the first year, only the higher rate, which is false advertising. At least Stagecoach are up front about it in their radio ads.

I’ve not heard either advert, but I do think GNE have certainly tried to make their offering more attractive recently. Both in terms of rates and how they’re presenting them.

On the website, I note Stagecoach upping their top rate to £13, but what’s this “Typical Annualised Earnings” all about? They quote 37 hrs on the website but then £28k underneath, which even at 40 hrs doesn’t reconcile to £13 an hour.

Tinkering around the edges with pay rates is all well and good but doesn’t really address the retention of drivers. In order to this the Big 3 need to look at shifts patterns, work/life balance issues and also the way drivers are treated by both passengers and managers.

You would be surprised (or maybe not) how many drivers are leaving for jobs paying less but address those other factors

(05 Nov 2022, 10:36 am)Bazza wrote [ -> ]Tinkering around the edges with pay rates is all well and good but doesn’t really address the retention of drivers. In order to this the Big 3 need to look at shifts patterns, work/life balance issues and also the way drivers are treated by both passengers and managers. 

You would be surprised (or maybe not) how many drivers are leaving for jobs paying less but address those other factors

100% agree with this.

All the things you've mentioned are within the control of the operators. They choose the timetable, which then filter through to bus workings, duites and then to rest day patterns and time off between shifts.

They also control who they hire to manage drivers and therefore the general atmosphere.

I have seen certain drivers doing the same routes daily, must most don't.

We've had years of the finger being pointed at unions, haulage companies and the DVLA, but no operator seems to acknowledge that they're the problem.

Surely working on staff turnover and improving conditions would save money in the long term? It's ridiculous how much money is spaffed on agency drivers, incentives, bonuses and training to alleviate avoidable staff shortages!

I had a depot manager years ago working at Arriva, a nasty, bullying, arrogant, nepotistic piece of shite. In his eyes, you were always wrong and he was always right, and his motto was basically "If you don't like the job, then fk off". Like myself, it seems many drivers are finally heeding his advice and going for employment that offers at least 90% of the wage in return for 10% of the hassle and responsibility.

(05 Nov 2022, 10:36 am)Bazza wrote [ -> ]Tinkering around the edges with pay rates is all well and good but doesn’t really address the retention of drivers. In order to this the Big 3 need to look at shifts patterns, work/life balance issues and also the way drivers are treated by both passengers and managers.

You would be surprised (or maybe not) how many drivers are leaving for jobs paying less but address those other factors

I think it would come as a big surprise for members of this forum to discover that turnover rates in the North East are a lot lower compared to other parts of the country - and I think that applies to all three operators.


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(05 Nov 2022, 11:07 pm)Dan wrote [ -> ]I think it would come as a big surprise for members of this forum to discover that turnover rates in the North East are a lot lower compared to other parts of the country - and I think that applies to all three operators.


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Do you have any percentages and timeframes for this?

(06 Nov 2022, 6:00 am)omnicity4659 wrote [ -> ]Do you have any percentages and timeframes for this?

I do for Go North East and the wider Go-Ahead Group, but it’s probably not something to share on the public domain.

As far as I’m aware, it’s a similar story at Arriva and Stagecoach.

Retention rates really aren’t as bad as the industry average, here in the North East (but attrition is still much higher than other industries).


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(06 Nov 2022, 6:57 am)Dan wrote [ -> ]I do for Go North East and the wider Go-Ahead Group, but it’s probably not something to share on the public domain.

As far as I’m aware, it’s a similar story at Arriva and Stagecoach.

Retention rates really aren’t as bad as the industry average, here in the North East (but attrition is still much higher than other industries).


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Sp it’s still a problem.  Nothing like trying to spin it.

(06 Nov 2022, 12:50 pm)Bazza wrote [ -> ]Sp it’s still a problem.  Nothing like trying to spin it.

Depends on the reasons why staff are leaving, doesn't it?

If drivers find that there's not a great work/life balance, don't enjoy working shifts, would prefer to have every weekend off... then there's probably not a lot that bus operators can do. The nature of working for a bus company means that someone has to work earlies, lates, weekends, and everything in between. Rotas are so hard to get right - if there's a big desire to work weekdays only, then operators could implement more split shifts - but that leaves more lates and weekends for everyone else... there's a fine balance to be had.

If that's the reason why, then perhaps bus operators are better off concentrating their efforts on recruitment to meet employee turnover rates. It's been mentioned elsewhere on the forum recently that Go North East's lost mileage due to lack of driver resource has vastly improved. At the same time we've seen lots of references on this forum to a big recruitment drive. The two are probably connected.

There are of course other reasons within the company's control - pay, holiday entitlement, management style, etc - and if that's the reason why staff are leaving, then concentrating on improving retention rates is probably the thing to concentrate on.

Looking at some of the employee turnover rates reference on the website below, I actually don't think turnover rates in the bus industry are all that bad. I thought other industries were a lot lower:
https://www.rewardgateway.com/blog/emplo...y-industry

(06 Nov 2022, 3:09 pm)Dan wrote [ -> ] Depends on the reasons why staff are leaving, doesn't it? 

If drivers find that there's not a great work/life balance, don't enjoy working shifts, would prefer to have every weekend off... then there's probably not a lot that bus operators can do. The nature of working for a bus company means that someone has to work earlies, lates, weekends, and everything in between. Rotas are so hard to get right - if there's a big desire to work weekdays only, then operators could implement more split shifts - but that leaves more lates and weekends for everyone else... there's a fine balance to be had.

If that's the reason why, then perhaps bus operators are better off concentrating their efforts on recruitment to meet employee turnover rates. It's been mentioned elsewhere on the forum recently that Go North East's lost mileage due to lack of driver resource has vastly improved. At the same time we've seen lots of references on this forum to a big recruitment drive. The two are probably connected.

There are of course other reasons within the company's control - pay, holiday entitlement, management style, etc - and if that's the reason why staff are leaving, then concentrating on improving retention rates is probably the thing to concentrate on.

Looking at some of the employee turnover rates reference on the website below, I actually don't think turnover rates in the bus industry are all that bad. I thought other industries were a lot lower:
https://www.rewardgateway.com/blog/emplo...y-industry

A lot of employers don't realise this, but the best marketing they can do, is to keep their employees happy.

Particularly those customer facing ones.

It's cheaper too.

(06 Nov 2022, 3:09 pm)Dan wrote [ -> ]Depends on the reasons why staff are leaving, doesn't it?

If drivers find that there's not a great work/life balance, don't enjoy working shifts, would prefer to have every weekend off... then there's probably not a lot that bus operators can do. The nature of working for a bus company means that someone has to work earlies, lates, weekends, and everything in between. Rotas are so hard to get right - if there's a big desire to work weekdays only, then operators could implement more split shifts - but that leaves more lates and weekends for everyone else... there's a fine balance to be had.

If that's the reason why, then perhaps bus operators are better off concentrating their efforts on recruitment to meet employee turnover rates. It's been mentioned elsewhere on the forum recently that Go North East's lost mileage due to lack of driver resource has vastly improved. At the same time we've seen lots of references on this forum to a big recruitment drive. The two are probably connected.

There are of course other reasons within the company's control - pay, holiday entitlement, management style, etc - and if that's the reason why staff are leaving, then concentrating on improving retention rates is probably the thing to concentrate on.

Looking at some of the employee turnover rates reference on the website below, I actually don't think turnover rates in the bus industry are all that bad. I thought other industries were a lot lower:
https://www.rewardgateway.com/blog/emplo...y-industry

There is shift work and shift work.   I have worked shifts all my working life, the shifts that the bus industry expect you to work are up there with the worst. 

So your answer is rather than improving the working conditions of current employees, it’s just best to constantly recruit new staff?   That’s very short sighted and the sort of view that just reinforces that the management within the bus industry is very poor.

(07 Nov 2022, 6:53 pm)Bazza wrote [ -> ]There is shift work and shift work.   I have worked shifts all my working life, the shifts that the bus industry expect you to work are up there with the worst. 

So your answer is rather than improving the working conditions of current employees, it’s just best to constantly recruit new staff?   That’s very short sighted and the sort of view that just reinforces that the management within the bus industry is very poor.

In what way would you class them as the worst?

(07 Nov 2022, 7:34 pm)citaro5284 wrote [ -> ]In what way would you class them as the worst?

Up there with the worst. 

In no particular order:

- high proportion of split weekly rest days
- not uncommon to finish after midnight on the day before a rest day, then start before 6am on the day after your one rest day
- start a set of shifts on a late and work down to finish the set on an early so that the hours off between shifts are always reducing 
- not unusual to have an early(ish) shift in the middle of a late week and likewise a lat(ish) shift in the middle of an early week.
- no consistency.  An early shift can start at anytime between  4am and 9am (depending on depot) and so you could start at any of those times on an early week, try getting into a sleep routine for a week with shifts that have such a varying start time. 
- stupidly long shifts ( yes they may be legal, doesn’t make them acceptable) offset with stupidly short shifts.  I sometimes drive people to work then take them home after there working day has finished. 

These are off the top of my head.   I’m sure other drivers on here could come up with a few more.

You are never going to please 100% of people 100% of the time but bus companies seem intent on pissing off 100% of drivers 100% of the time.

Add to this the current staff shortages, which mean it’s harder to get time off when you want it.  

I hope you noted there was no moaning about working weekends. I agree that bus drivers complaining about working weekends or indeed unsociable hours are probably in the wrong job.   I’m actually in the camp that bus services on Sunday and Public Holidays should be more extensive.  Just as certain routes on an evening should have better frequencies and there should be an extensive night service offered. 

It seems to me that the people who think shift workers are moaning for the sake of it, work 9-5 Monday to Friday. And you can bet managers (especially those in commercial departments) and schedulers aren’t working the shift patterns they seem to think are acceptable. 

To suggest that rather than improve the working conditions of current employees it is easier to just recruit, recruit, recruit is extremely disrespectful and speaks volumes of the management ethos embedded in the organisation.

(08 Nov 2022, 9:08 am)Bazza wrote [ -> ]Up there with the worst. 

In no particular order:

- high proportion of split weekly rest days
- not uncommon to finish after midnight on the day before a rest day, then start before 6am on the day after your one rest day
- start a set of shifts on a late and work down to finish the set on an early so that the hours off between shifts are always reducing 
- not unusual to have an early(ish) shift in the middle of a late week and likewise a lat(ish) shift in the middle of an early week.
- no consistency.  An early shift can start at anytime between  4am and 9am (depending on depot) and so you could start at any of those times on an early week, try getting into a sleep routine for a week with shifts that have such a varying start time. 
- stupidly long shifts ( yes they may be legal, doesn’t make them acceptable) offset with stupidly short shifts.  I sometimes drive people to work then take them home after there working day has finished. 

These are off the top of my head.   I’m sure other drivers on here could come up with a few more.

You are never going to please 100% of people 100% of the time but bus companies seem intent on pissing off 100% of drivers 100% of the time.

Add to this the current staff shortages, which mean it’s harder to get time off when you want it.  

I hope you noted there was no moaning about working weekends. I agree that bus drivers complaining about working weekends or indeed unsociable hours are probably in the wrong job.   I’m actually in the camp that bus services on Sunday and Public Holidays should be more extensive.  Just as certain routes on an evening should have better frequencies and there should be an extensive night service offered. 

It seems to me that the people who think shift workers are moaning for the sake of it, work 9-5 Monday to Friday. And you can bet managers (especially those in commercial departments) and schedulers aren’t working the shift patterns they seem to think are acceptable. 

To suggest that rather than improve the working conditions of current employees it is easier to just recruit, recruit, recruit is extremely disrespectful and speaks volumes of the management ethos embedded in the organisation.

There seems to be constant "we will look into these issues" not only from management but also the union. From memory, the last rota survey, they even used an external agency to sort the issue but nothing came of it.

Personally and as a previous manager (not within the bus industry) I don't see the logic in focusing on recruitment (and associated costs including adverts) rather than improving what's on offer at the moment. 

A lot of drivers also get annoyed that management don't do weekends/latest whereas a driver does. At our depot we have drivers on permanent latest and night bus duties too. 

I made a jump around a year ago where I dropped to term time only (taking a substantial hit on pay and conditions) but that has improved my work life balance which beforehand was non existent. 

As for holidays, Arriva when I was there and GNE both allocate holidays in blocks and drivers normally can't  choose when their holidays are (not great for family life). Obviously with so many drivers there are limited ways this can be managed but surely there must be a better way? I cannot comment on Stagecoach or smaller operators for holiday entitlement and how it works.

(08 Nov 2022, 5:46 pm)morritt89 wrote [ -> ]There seems to be constant "we will look into these issues" not only from management but also the union. From memory, the last rota survey, they even used an external agency to sort the issue but nothing came of it.

Personally and as a previous manager (not within the bus industry) I don't see the logic in focusing on recruitment (and associated costs including adverts) rather than improving what's on offer at the moment. 

A lot of drivers also get annoyed that management don't do weekends/latest whereas a driver does. At our depot we have drivers on permanent latest and night bus duties too. 

I made a jump around a year ago where I dropped to term time only (taking a substantial hit on pay and conditions) but that has improved my work life balance which beforehand was non existent. 

As for holidays, Arriva when I was there and GNE both allocate holidays in blocks and drivers normally can't  choose when their holidays are (not great for family life). Obviously with so many drivers there are limited ways this can be managed but surely there must be a better way? I cannot comment on Stagecoach or smaller operators for holiday entitlement and how it works.

There are some drivers which seem to be on the exact same shifts every day I've noticed. I wonder how they get to pick that they get the same shift every day, monday to friday. Whereas most don't.

(08 Nov 2022, 7:56 pm)Unber43 wrote [ -> ]There are some drivers which seem to be on the exact same shifts every day I've noticed. I wonder how they get to pick that they get the same shift every day, monday to friday. Whereas most don't.

They’re usually split shift drivers, because they’re on that rota.


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(08 Nov 2022, 8:54 pm)Dan wrote [ -> ]They’re usually split shift drivers, because they’re on that rota.


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Thanks for the info.

The issue of unbalanced shift patterns will never be addressed adequately, and its all down to money.

All the services are fed into a computer, which is then programmed to produce a rota that is as cost effective as can be achieved in terms of shortest break times/time off between shifts that is legally possible. It has always been this way and always will be.

Rather than attempt to keep the drivers they have content they are more than happy to continually train up new ones as the cost of training them is offset by the lower wage they recieve in the first year of employment.

wHY CANT THEY ADVERTISE FOR DRIVERS FOR EXAMPLE " ONLY WEEKEND WORK" OR ONLY " TWIGHLIGHT SHIFTS STARTING AFTER 5PM"?

(09 Nov 2022, 3:04 pm)Rob44 wrote [ -> ]wHY CANT THEY ADVERTISE FOR DRIVERS FOR EXAMPLE " ONLY WEEKEND WORK" OR ONLY " TWIGHLIGHT SHIFTS STARTING AFTER 5PM"?

I'm sure First in Glasgow done something similar, targeting people with other commitments.

Might be union objections though?