I have always wondered is there a specific list or something of PVRs for each route?
If not how do you work it out? Timings, overlay times, driver changes?
Help is appreciated
(16 Apr 2023, 6:48 pm)logidoodah wrote [ -> ]I have always wondered is there a specific list or something of PVRs for each route?
If not how do you work it out? Timings, overlay times, driver changes?
Help is appreciated
No list but as a general rule for single routes without interworking in one direction
Every 60 Minutes
Every 60 Minutes of Journey Time = 1 PVR
Every 30 Minutes
Every 30 Minutes of Journey Time = 1 PVR
Every 20 Minutes
Every 20 Minutes of Journey Time = 1 PVR
Every 15 Minutes
Every 15 Minutes... and so on probably get the gist now.
So for example the 2 at Blyth takes 58 minutes to do a run in one direction and 55 in the other which is 113 minutes, throw in 10 minutes layover to be safe (5 minutes each run) = 123 minutes. 123 minutes / 30 = 4.1 = PVR 4 (Rounded to account for layover)
Or for the 58 which one direction is 51 minutes, the other is 48 minutes which is 99 minutes, add your 10 minute layover = 109 minutes, 109 / 15 = 7.26 (PVR 7)
Interworking is a bit more complicated but say for the X7/X8/X9 you can just add them altogether
ie X7 is 63 minutes, X8, 63 minutes, X9 67 minutes = 190 minutes throw some layover in between them say 5 minutes each, 210 minutes then double it (2 directions) 420 minutes / 30 = 14 = PVR 14
Short and long routes like the X1 and stuff like the 10/10A/10B with different frequencies are more complicated but it's easier to just split it up into chunks.
Also then you need to plan drivers schedules to account for every service to have a driver on a 6-12hr shift.
And all the interworkings on morning services like the Q3's going onto the Orbit (well used too), or the 35A from easington Lane to Sunderland interworking with the 24. To the absolute nightmare scheduling of Deptfords Sunday timetables.
Like on a sunday the a 20 will do two early 24s etc.
here's a list for Stagecoach Newcastle
Walkergate- 1: Coach Lane Campus > Benwell/Slatyford - 12 Enviro400
- 12: Two Ball Lonnen > Walker/Wallsend - 8 Enviro400/Enviro400H & 2 Enviro300 (10 Enviro400MMC from mid-2023)
- 18: Benton > Walker - 3 Enviro400
- 22*: Cobalt > Throckley - 17 Enviro400/Enviro400H
- 38*: Whickham View > Freeman Hospital - 10 Enviro400/Enviro400H
- 39/40: Lemington/Chapel House > Walker/Wallsend - 21 Enviro400MMC
- 62/63: Throckley/North Walbottle/Chapel House > Killingworth - 3 Enviro400MMC
- X63*: Newcastle > Killingworth - 1 Enviro400 & 2 Enviro300
- 317: Wallsend > Whitley Bay - 5 Enviro200
- Scholars - 2 Enviro400
*include scholars
Slatyford- 6/7/8: MetroCentre > Freeman Hospital - 5 Enviro300
- 10/11*: West Denton > North Kenton - 1 Enviro400 & 11 Enviro300
- 30/31/36: Fawdon > Fenham - 1 Enviro400 & 13 Enviro200MMC
- 32/32A: Walker > North Kenton - 6 Enviro200
- 35: Newcastle > Red House Farm - 2 Enviro300
- X47: Newcastle > Kingston Park - 4 Enviro300
- 62/63: Throckley/North Walbottle/Chapel House > Killingworth - 20 Enviro400MMC
- 71: Chapel House > Newcastle - 2 Enviro300
- 72: Chapel House > Newcastle - 1 Enviro300
- 87: Newbiggin Hall > Newcastle - 1 Enviro300
- X77/X78/X79/X82: Ponteland/Throckley > Newcastle - 5 Enviro300
- X87/X88: Newbiggin Hall > Newcastle - 2 Enviro400 & 3 Enviro300
- 685: Newcastle > Carlisle - 2 Enviro300
*include scholars
For Stagecoach depots, the PVRs are listed in the fleetlist. Here's Sunderland's:
3 - 8x Gasbus
4 - 3x Dennis E200 + 6x E300 (Gas or Diesel)
8 - 2x Dennis E200
10/11 - 10x E200 (Dennis or MAN)
12/13 - 9x Gasbus
16 - 8x Gasbus + 1x E400*
18 - 1x MAN E200 + 1x E400*
20 - 5x Gasbus
23 - 7x E200 (Dennis or MAN)
X24 - 3x Gasbus
99 - 1x E400* (Dennis E200 on Saturdays)
Ecos - 10x Dennis E300
Durham Scholars - 2x E400
*E400 comes from scholars duties.
Rough one for Arriva Northumbria
1 - 4x usually pulsars
2 - 4x usually pulsars
X7/X8/X9 14x DB300 with the odd e400 classic or pulsar thrown in
X10/X11 6x DB300 with the odd e400 classic or pulsar thrown in (Was not sure on this one)
X14 3x e400 mmc/classic
X15 4x e400 mmc/classic
X18 5x e400 mmc/classic
X20 4x e400 mmc/classic
X21/X22 11x e400 mmc/classic (Was not sure on this one)
35 4x e400 mmc/classic with an odd pulsar
Don't think it's worth creating a new thread (far too many of them), so this seemed the most suitable.
It's clear that operators across the region are reducing their PVR's. With older vehicles coming to the end of their lives, replacements not forthcoming (for whatever reason that may be) and subsequently, frequencies are reducing.
I've made my thoughts on the state of the network clear and I want to make clear, that this specific post isn't relating to the network.
What I am keen to look at/discuss is the continual decline of the PVR's/fleet size over the years and the correlation it has/may have with declining passenger numbers.
Fleet reductions aren't exclusive to the post-Covid world and has been happening for years (with some operators more than others), but what I don't get is the long-term strategy that operators may have.
* How can saving money by reducing fleet size, increase profit? It may increase margins, but not profit.
* If numbers start to increase and passengers come back to use the poorer service, will that demand lead to a greater PVR or even newer vehicles?
* At what point do operators cut their losses and cease trading? There's no growth, there's no expansion. It's literally tightening the belt a notch at a time.
If anyone does have data that shows depot PVR reductions/fleet sizes over the years, I'd love to see it in all its glory.
the massive order between 2011-2013 is going to kill GNE eventually
(24 May 2023, 4:38 pm)Andreos1 wrote [ -> ]What I am keen to look at/discuss is the continual decline of the PVR's/fleet size over the years and the correlation it has/may have with declining passenger numbers.
Fleet reductions aren't exclusive to the post-Covid world and has been happening for years (with some operators more than others), but what I don't get is the long-term strategy that operators may have.
* How can saving money by reducing fleet size, increase profit? It may increase margins, but not profit.
* If numbers start to increase and passengers come back to use the poorer service, will that demand lead to a greater PVR or even newer vehicles?
* At what point do operators cut their losses and cease trading? There's no growth, there's no expansion. It's literally tightening the belt a notch at a time.
If anyone does have data that shows depot PVR reductions/fleet sizes over the years, I'd love to see it in all its glory.
Surely lower costs (less maintenance costs etc.) with the 'same' amount of revenue will increase both profits and margins?
On your second point, some operators might increase PVR (I can't think of any recent cases) but in the majority of cases, I suspect that increased demand will simply mean busier buses, more standees, less seats to fill - which from a business and efficiency point of view is great. Not so much for the customer experience. Too many operators will simply have a 'Tough luck - you get what you're given', 'you'll be glad that the bus shows up' etc. type of attitude.
It's a sad state of affairs.
(24 May 2023, 4:38 pm)Andreos1 wrote [ -> ]Don't think it's worth creating a new thread (far too many of them), so this seemed the most suitable.
It's clear that operators across the region are reducing their PVR's. With older vehicles coming to the end of their lives, replacements not forthcoming (for whatever reason that may be) and subsequently, frequencies are reducing.
I've made my thoughts on the state of the network clear and I want to make clear, that this specific post isn't relating to the network.
What I am keen to look at/discuss is the continual decline of the PVR's/fleet size over the years and the correlation it has/may have with declining passenger numbers.
Fleet reductions aren't exclusive to the post-Covid world and has been happening for years (with some operators more than others), but what I don't get is the long-term strategy that operators may have.
* How can saving money by reducing fleet size, increase profit? It may increase margins, but not profit.
* If numbers start to increase and passengers come back to use the poorer service, will that demand lead to a greater PVR or even newer vehicles?
* At what point do operators cut their losses and cease trading? There's no growth, there's no expansion. It's literally tightening the belt a notch at a time.
If anyone does have data that shows depot PVR reductions/fleet sizes over the years, I'd love to see it in all its glory.
This might come as a bit controversial from me but personally I wouldn't be bothered about some PVR reductions, if the changes were sensible.
Like to pick an example the 1 and X1 between Darlington and Tow Law. There's probably too much capacity there so why not up the 1 to every 20 minutes, ran by Deckers and scrap the X1. You've reduced the PVR but at the same time increased the frequency so it's a win/win.
Other examples are stuff like the 6 and 7 in Hartlepool. Would it really be the end of the world if they were both reduced to every 15 minutes but then allocated Decker's instead. Same / more capacity, less driver's / vehicles and there's no big difference between every 10 and 15 minutes really. Even the likes of the 30/31/36 in Newcastle could arguably fit that then those MMC's could be used to sort out the singles problem if they could get some of the displaced Deckers elsewhere as long as ran the 30/31 all the way through in the West End, a 15 minute service would be more than enough for the core of the route.
There has been some examples of it ie. 1 and 2 at Blyth, X66/X67 merger at Darlington but across the main it's not happening - they're sensible cuts imo. Removing routes altogether on the other hand isn't or reducing frequencies with the same buses as that's leaving no future growth.
(24 May 2023, 10:17 pm)Storx wrote [ -> ]This might come as a bit controversial from me but personally I wouldn't be bothered about some PVR reductions, if the changes were sensible.
Like to pick an example the 1 and X1 between Darlington and Tow Law. There's probably too much capacity there so why not up the 1 to every 20 minutes, ran by Deckers and scrap the X1. You've reduced the PVR but at the same time increased the frequency so it's a win/win.
Other examples are stuff like the 6 and 7 in Hartlepool. Would it really be the end of the world if they were both reduced to every 15 minutes but then allocated Decker's instead. Same / more capacity, less driver's / vehicles and there's no big difference between every 10 and 15 minutes really. Even the likes of the 30/31/36 in Newcastle could arguably fit that then those MMC's could be used to sort out the singles problem if they could get some of the displaced Deckers elsewhere as long as ran the 30/31 all the way through in the West End, a 15 minute service would be more than enough for the core of the route.
There has been some examples of it ie. 1 and 2 at Blyth, X66/X67 merger at Darlington but across the main it's not happening - they're sensible cuts imo. Removing routes altogether on the other hand isn't or reducing frequencies with the same buses as that's leaving no future growth.
There is a huge difference between 10 and 15 mins, if its 10 mins if ones late it will only be another 10 mins, so a 20 mins wait, if a 15 min service doesn't run that will be 30 mins, if one doesn't run and the one behind it gets busy that its 15 mins late, then it goes out of service thats a 45 min wait instead of 30.
10 to 12 is no issue really, its only upto an extra 4-6 mins if one doesn't run (waiting 12, 24, 36 etc).
(24 May 2023, 4:38 pm)Andreos1 wrote [ -> ]Don't think it's worth creating a new thread (far too many of them), so this seemed the most suitable.
It's clear that operators across the region are reducing their PVR's. With older vehicles coming to the end of their lives, replacements not forthcoming (for whatever reason that may be) and subsequently, frequencies are reducing.
I've made my thoughts on the state of the network clear and I want to make clear, that this specific post isn't relating to the network.
What I am keen to look at/discuss is the continual decline of the PVR's/fleet size over the years and the correlation it has/may have with declining passenger numbers.
Fleet reductions aren't exclusive to the post-Covid world and has been happening for years (with some operators more than others), but what I don't get is the long-term strategy that operators may have.
* How can saving money by reducing fleet size, increase profit? It may increase margins, but not profit.
* If numbers start to increase and passengers come back to use the poorer service, will that demand lead to a greater PVR or even newer vehicles?
* At what point do operators cut their losses and cease trading? There's no growth, there's no expansion. It's literally tightening the belt a notch at a time.
If anyone does have data that shows depot PVR reductions/fleet sizes over the years, I'd love to see it in all its glory.
Current bed time reading is 'Twenty Turbulent Years' by Peter Rowlands & Stewart J Brown. Worth a read if anyone comes across it, some fantastic pictures in there as well.
Anyway, said book casts a look at the bus industry over the 20 year period from 1980 to 2000.
At NBC privatisation it lists Northern General at 730 vehicles; Northumbria at 319 and United at 490.
Also a PTE fleet size of 547.
Granted, privatisation may not be the best of starting points to compare.
(25 May 2023, 8:44 am)Unber43 wrote [ -> ]There is a huge difference between 10 and 15 mins, if its 10 mins if ones late it will only be another 10 mins, so a 20 mins wait, if a 15 min service doesn't run that will be 30 mins, if one doesn't run and the one behind it gets busy that its 15 mins late, then it goes out of service thats a 45 min wait instead of 30.
10 to 12 is no issue really, its only upto an extra 4-6 mins if one doesn't run (waiting 12, 24, 36 etc).
In fairness though all services should run though, arguably reducing it would help that as you'd have more drivers spare to reduce cancellations. Obviously breakdowns will always be an issue but you could make the argument the engineering have less buses to look after so can better look after buses.
10 minute and more frequent services quite often have stacking issues which you don't tend to get with 15 minute services as no-one goes for a bus 10 minutes early.
(25 May 2023, 11:55 am)Storx wrote [ -> ]In fairness though all services should run though, arguably reducing it would help that as you'd have more drivers spare to reduce cancellations. Obviously breakdowns will always be an issue but you could make the argument the engineering have less buses to look after so can better look after buses.
10 minute and more frequent services quite often have stacking issues which you don't tend to get with 15 minute services as no-one goes for a bus 10 minutes early.
15 min buses do, the 20/20A, 60, 56 all struggle with it
Also most the time its not breakdown its late runnings
(25 May 2023, 11:55 am)Storx wrote [ -> ]In fairness though all services should run though, arguably reducing it would help that as you'd have more drivers spare to reduce cancellations. Obviously breakdowns will always be an issue but you could make the argument the engineering have less buses to look after so can better look after buses.
10 minute and more frequent services quite often have stacking issues which you don't tend to get with 15 minute services as no-one goes for a bus 10 minutes early.
Twirlys do, they start their militarised mission to be first on the 0927 bus around 0900 on a morning and sit and look at their watches until it is time for action, the delight when the 0925 bus is a couple of mins late as they can use it
(25 May 2023, 11:55 am)Storx wrote [ -> ]10 minute and more frequent services quite often have stacking issues which you don't tend to get with 15 minute services as no-one goes for a bus 10 minutes early.
I think u would be surprised
I am sometimes 10 minutes early for a bus as it can take me 5 minutes or more to cross the road by my house, sometimes, so I always need to leave plenty of time for that.
Whats the PVR of the GNE 8?
(25 May 2023, 2:33 pm)N1cholas wrote [ -> ]Twirlys do, they start their militarised mission to be first on the 0927 bus around 0900 on a morning and sit and look at their watches until it is time for action, the delight when the 0925 bus is a couple of mins late as they can use it
And the 0925 is probably late cos they keep flagging it down and trying their passes on it.
Why do they
have to get the 0927? There's plenty of buses afterwards.
(25 May 2023, 5:49 pm)F114TML wrote [ -> ]And the 0925 is probably late cos they keep flagging it down and trying their passes on it.
Why do they have to get the 0927? There's plenty of buses afterwards.
One of life's many wonders, maybe they think there will no metro newspapers on the later bus, another of their must haves on a daily basis