(14 Aug 2022, 11:45 am)L469 YVK wrote Well post #1229 (https://northeastbuses.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?tid=503&pid=282961#pid282961) on the Arriva Service Suggestions thread did take into account the operational challenges although it did show a few longer term 'implications' and benefits a swap would being which is what the discussion is about. Other than interworking patterns (which again as an operational issue), no mention of re-designing the network.

At one end of the spectrum, there's GNE who effectively don't have any presence in North Tyneside other than 4x groups of routes. At the other end of the spectrum, you have Arriva who do have some presence in the area although they can't remain at Jesmond for lease reasons or sustain a 'new' facility. Surely a swap would make sense? Effectively as long as the TUPE conditions were laid down to keep both sets of drivers happy, it would be a win-win:

- GNE effectively 'streamline' their depots only leaving Riverside, Consett (and Hexham), Washington and Deptford
- Arriva get another 'facility' cheaper than having to build a new facility with potential future development plans
- Both sets of drivers in most instances won't need to commute 'mega miles' just to get to work

GNE would never get away doing what they did to CLS with Percy Main. CLS had the advantage of nearby depots at Consett (although more miles away than Riverside but less traffic with potentially CLS drivers living in the likes of Stanley etc), Washington and Deptford. I doubt many drivers at Percy Main would take to being moved to Riverside. So longer term, it would be a problem washed both of GNE's and Arriva's hands.

(14 Aug 2022, 11:45 am)L469 YVK wrote Well post #1229 (https://northeastbuses.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?tid=503&pid=282961#pid282961) on the Arriva Service Suggestions thread did take into account the operational challenges although it did show a few longer term 'implications' and benefits a swap would being which is what the discussion is about. Other than interworking patterns (which again as an operational issue), no mention of re-designing the network.

At one end of the spectrum, there's GNE who effectively don't have any presence in North Tyneside other than 4x groups of routes. At the other end of the spectrum, you have Arriva who do have some presence in the area although they can't remain at Jesmond for lease reasons or sustain a 'new' facility. Surely a swap would make sense? Effectively as long as the TUPE conditions were laid down to keep both sets of drivers happy, it would be a win-win:

- GNE effectively 'streamline' their depots only leaving Riverside, Consett (and Hexham), Washington and Deptford
- Arriva get another 'facility' cheaper than having to build a new facility with potential future development plans
- Both sets of drivers in most instances won't need to commute 'mega miles' just to get to work

GNE would never get away doing what they did to CLS with Percy Main. CLS had the advantage of nearby depots at Consett (although more miles away than Riverside but less traffic with potentially CLS drivers living in the likes of Stanley etc), Washington and Deptford. I doubt many drivers at Percy Main would take to being moved to Riverside. So longer term, it would be a problem washed both of GNE's and Arriva's hands.

(14 Aug 2022, 12:05 am)omnicity4659 wrote Problem with that is the Bedlington and Morpeth extension.

It could be viable to extend the 53 to Bedlington and truncate the 43 to there too, with them alternating into the newer estates in the area. Perhaps sending one of the routes via Bebside and Bedlington Station to cover the Bebside-Cramlington leg of the X9, with one of the X10/X11 starting up in Bebside instead to maintain the Newcastle link.

(14 Aug 2022, 1:58 pm)Storx wrote You'd need to send something to Morpeth otherwise you'd lose the Morpeth -> Cramlington link which is the purpose of the 43 extension, rather than Newcastle.

Removing the X9 link is a bad idea though. The X8 is the questionable route, duplicating the 52/57A between Cramlington and Newcastle for large parts, bar the short section between High Pit and Annitsford towards Newcastle, serving very little and then the X7/X10/X11 between Cramlington and Blyth.

Personally I'd some how try and merge the 52 and X8 as one route and maybe interwork that with a 30 minute 55 with full size buses and 54 if timings are possible, interworking with the X7 giving a 15 minute service between South Gosforth and Newcastle.

So it does 52 -> 54 -> 54 -> 55 -> 52 (Blyth Based with Streetlites)

For the 53 I'd extend that back to Morpeth like it used to years ago as the 343 and work it with the Morpeth driver boards with the 1 and 2 (Ashington Based with Pulsars)

That's the 50's sorted. Then the X7/X9/47 could work together with a PVR 10

Doing X7 -> 47 -> X9 or X9 -> 47 -> X7

Just leaves the 43/44/45/46/51/51A

(14 Aug 2022, 10:38 am)L469 YVK wrote QA/QB would stay with GNE as that's moving to Riverside anyways.

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Going back to Storx's point yesterday in response to my barmy idea about a route swap, the idea of Arriva & GNE doing a 'swap' (Percy Main / Jesmond) wouldn't be a bad idea in hindsight. Obviously the CMA would say a big no-no to Arriva taking on the 309/310/311 and they'd have to stay with GNE. But working it out...........

Arriva > GNE:
- Jesmond Depot with enough drivers to cover PVR of 25x (+ some misc workings such as service 327).
- Route 685 only + 3x VDL Pulsars.
- GNE moves 685 operation to Hexham.
- GNE transfer 11x StreetLite + 18x B9TL (and any other misc vehicles) to Riverside.
- Jesmond Depot operation moved to Riverside, so effectively GNE would be purchasing Arriva's workforce + service 685 and 3x vehicles. Most Jesmond drivers TUPE over to GNE and move to Riverside although some could stay with Arriva and move to Percy Main (or Blyth / Ashington if preferable).
- 1/309/310/311 moved to Riverside.

GNE > Arriva:
- Percy Main Depot including routes 19/41/41A and 7x appropriate vehicles to cover the PVRs.
- Arriva move service 43/44/45/46/46A/51/51A/52/53/54/55/306 to Percy Main.
- Percy Main total PVR would be 49x vehicles (+ any misc workings as applicable).
- Would use GNE's existing Percy Main workforce, all of whom would TUPE to Arriva alongside any existing Arriva drivers who chose to stay with Arriva and move from Jesmond.

Longer term Arriva changes:
- Service 55 withdrawn.
- Service 306 interworks with services 44/45.
- Full service 43 boards from Morpeth (including half hourly shorts to Cramlington) operated by Ashington - PVR 4x
- Other half hourly boards on service 43 interwork with service 53 and stay at Percy Main - PVR 8x
- Service 52 interworks only with service 54 - PVR 8x
- Depot lifespan shouldn't be an issue if services recover longer term or favourable travel patterns emerge and Arriva take advantage. If developers want to purchase land to expand housing estate, agree for them to locate and partially or fully fund a new depot to replace Percy Main.

(14 Aug 2022, 8:01 pm)V514DFT wrote I remember round about 2014ish that the 54 and 55 did used to interwork ,was operated by 2 solos (sometimes darts) and 2 full sized buses,since the 46/46A already interwork,could the 51 not just be canned,and merged with the 46,i know the route would be a bit on the large side,but could work

(15 Aug 2022, 8:15 am)Storx wrote Honestly can't remember that like, the 54 is a funny route which got changed about 5 times in the early 00's. Felt like it was almost monthly it was changing, some better, some worse (the X6 being by far the most stupid of the lot).

(15 Aug 2022, 7:52 pm)col87 wrote If Arriva and Go North east where to do a swap would Arriva getting East Durham and Go North East getting North Tyneside not be better.

(15 Aug 2022, 6:56 pm)V514DFT wrote I dont if its just me,but I thought it ran better when it was the 356

(15 Aug 2022, 7:52 pm)col87 wrote If Arriva and Go North east where to do a swap would Arriva getting East Durham and Go North East getting North Tyneside not be better.

(15 Aug 2022, 8:17 pm)cbma06 wrote What bus services in east Durham? Most gne bus services in east Durham are dcc secured services


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(24 Aug 2022, 11:17 am)Ambassador wrote Wonder if they'd consider an hourly X12 on a Sunday - perhaps only running NCL-Durham shorts?

(24 Aug 2022, 11:34 am)Kuyoyo wrote The X12 already runs on a Sunday between Durham and Middlesbrough hourly during the day - operated by Stockton depot, interworked with the various other routes within the Middlesbrough area (the majority of X12s arriving into Middlesbrough at xx35 during the main part of the day on a Sunday work onto the 9 to Overfields which depart at xx40 - late afternoon journeys tend to either be on the end of a driver's shift or, in the case of the last two trips, form the middle part of the 5 backshifts). To extend to Newcastle would basically result in additional resources and driver requirements for what is likely to be very little in way of revenue.

(23 Aug 2022, 10:30 pm)OrangeArrow49 wrote Could there be any scope to extend the 47 and 55?

(24 Aug 2022, 1:18 pm)Andreos1 wrote I reckon the revenue on that X12 must be up due to the farce that is the 21.

People will be looking for alternatives. The X12 could be that alternative.

(24 Aug 2022, 3:43 pm)Dan wrote They’ve missed the opportunity really.

If anyone wanted to capitalise on poor operational performance, it should have been long before now.

Late October is the next service change date, and realistically I think we’re more likely to see cuts before enhancements - especially in the Newcastle area linked to the closure of Jesmond (I’d imagine routes like the 46 are on the hit list).


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(24 Aug 2022, 3:23 pm)Storx wrote Not really for the 55 as if you head towards Killingworth, your duplicating the 52/53/62/63/X63, head East towards Whitley then you start duplicating the 51/53/54 with no real new connections and those 4 Arriva services aren't particular the strongest anyway to start taking pax away from them.

I don't know what the numbers are like on the 52 using it between Four Lane Ends and Quorum/Killingworth or extend the 54 to additionally loop around FLE to cover that but you could probably make a case of merging the 52 and 55 between Newcastle and Killingworth something like

52: Newcastle to South Gosforth
55: South Gosforth to Palmersville
53: Palmersville to Killingworth
52: Killingworth to Cramlington

55 Withdrawn

You'd also partially restore the other half of the GNE 42 which has recently been withdrawn Forest Hall - Killingworth - Cramlington

(24 Aug 2022, 3:56 pm)OrangeArrow49 wrote What cuts do you think we are likely to see? Could the 46/46A, 47 possibly change operators linked to Jesmond depot closing? Maybe even the 55 because it's relatively local to Jesmond rather than Blyth?

Arriva could operate the Northumberland 808 from Blyth, it would fit into their network perfectly.

(24 Aug 2022, 4:07 pm)OrangeArrow49 wrote I think it would be good to merge the 52 and 55. 

What about the 47? A very short route but nowhere for it to realistically extend to. Perhaps in October Arriva might give their 685 runs to Stagecoach and extend the 47 as far as maybe Throckley.

The 808 would be a good fit into Arriva's network.

(24 Aug 2022, 5:49 pm)peter wrote I doubt the 46 will change operators if Arriva withdrew it, it's mostly duplicated by other services, it wouldn't be money well spent by Nexus. I could see the Featherstone Grove and Hollywood Avenue sections merged into other services. Again, I think the 55 would sooner be withdrawn than pass to another operator as it's also a duplication, perhaps a route change on the 52 would cover some parts.

The 47 is a hospital shuttle, it's not likely to get extended to Throckley anytime soon, in fact I'm pretty sure it's funded for by the NHS Trust. It's more likely to be tacked onto the end of another service (either vehicle or operational wise) more than anything else. 

While your obsession with the 808 is nice, you've got to be realistic, it's not a good fit for Arriva's network at all, it goes nowhere near where they operate and Arriva don't run all that many Nexus contracts these days. GNE and Stagecoach actually operate to other places served by the 808 but the fact is no large operator is going to run a bus dead all the way up to Otterburn and back, for a once a day service carrying a handful of people...Phoenix are the most suitable with their little Orion's.

(24 Aug 2022, 5:49 pm)peter wrote I doubt the 46 will change operators if Arriva withdrew it, it's mostly duplicated by other services, it wouldn't be money well spent by Nexus. I could see the Featherstone Grove and Hollywood Avenue sections merged into other services. Again, I think the 55 would sooner be withdrawn than pass to another operator as it's also a duplication, perhaps a route change on the 52 would cover some parts.

The 47 is a hospital shuttle, it's not likely to get extended to Throckley anytime soon, in fact I'm pretty sure it's funded for by the NHS Trust. It's more likely to be tacked onto the end of another service (either vehicle or operational wise) more than anything else. 

While your obsession with the 808 is nice, you've got to be realistic, it's not a good fit for Arriva's network at all, it goes nowhere near where they operate and Arriva don't run all that many Nexus contracts these days. GNE and Stagecoach actually operate to other places served by the 808 but the fact is no large operator is going to run a bus dead all the way up to Otterburn and back, for a once a day service carrying a handful of people...Phoenix are the most suitable with their little Orion's.

(24 Aug 2022, 6:18 pm)OrangeArrow49 wrote I've always thought Not in Service buses could be utilised for once each way services. With regards to Arriva operating the 808 my point was they a based in Blyth, like Phoenix, but at Haymarket Phoenix stand out amongst the Arriva buses, so Arriva could operate it and compliment the 47 (Fenham) and reintroduce a service in Cowgate albeit limited. They have a scholars route from Great Park to Benwell via Cowgate, so not miles from where they operate, although Otterburn would be a bit further don't Arriva serve West Woodburn already?

Be interesting to see if Phoenix keep it for the long term and bizarre it was rerouted through Fenham duplicating other services when they were awarded it. 

For the 47, I think it should be an extension of another service, rather than standalone.

Great Park might get new services in the future as the area develops. Perhaps the X47 could be extended to serve there in the future and the Q3 could be extended beyond there slightly.

(24 Aug 2022, 6:18 pm)OrangeArrow49 wrote I've always thought Not in Service buses could be utilised for once each way services. With regards to Arriva operating the 808 my point was they a based in Blyth, like Phoenix, but at Haymarket Phoenix stand out amongst the Arriva buses, so Arriva could operate it and compliment the 47 (Fenham) and reintroduce a service in Cowgate albeit limited. They have a scholars route from Great Park to Benwell via Cowgate, so not miles from where they operate, although Otterburn would be a bit further don't Arriva serve West Woodburn already?

Be interesting to see if Phoenix keep it for the long term and bizarre it was rerouted through Fenham duplicating other services when they were awarded it. 

For the 47, I think it should be an extension of another service, rather than standalone.

Great Park might get new services in the future as the area develops. Perhaps the X47 could be extended to serve there in the future and the Q3 could be extended beyond there slightly.

(24 Aug 2022, 6:38 pm)Storx wrote Personally I think the minibus PVR will be 12 once it's all finished including the 4 on the 57/57A. The fact they're getting 14 MMC's which is just too many for the current services excluding the 57/57A and the fact no doubt they're heading to Ashington since the new Blyth depot has no space for minibuses.

What goes who knows but believe the PVR's are:

57/57A: 4
46/46A/51/51A: 5
553: 2
555: 1
55: 3

Personally I think the 46/46A might survive in some form (it has subsidies connected to it, with the 51 which I believe is fully subsidised), it's the 55 I'm less confident about, ditch the 55 and you've got the PVR 12.

(24 Aug 2022, 6:45 pm)peter wrote I guess you could use a bus that runs onto something at Newcastle and off something to work the return journey, however you're looking at almost an hour journey dead running from Otterburn to Blyth. Arriva are hardly likely to take on the contract, because they operate full time services, Phoenix on the other hand operate Northumberland and Nexus contracts either running locally or just a few journeys. They have smaller buses which use less fuel and thus cost less, so Arriva would never win the tender anyway. 

Just because it's mainly Arriva running from Haymarket isn't a very good reason tbh, should Arriva operate Go North East's 309/310/311 because they serve Haymarket and Peter Hogg's 131? The 47 is a hospital contract, it doesn't need any more services to compliment it. A scholars contract is not a regular service that's part of the network though. No Arriva don't serve West Woodburn or anywhere particularly close to the area. So all in all the 808 doesn't fit in with any standard Arriva routes and pigs will fly before they operate it.

(24 Aug 2022, 6:18 pm)OrangeArrow49 wrote I've always thought Not in Service buses could be utilised for once each way services. With regards to Arriva operating the 808 my point was they a based in Blyth, like Phoenix, but at Haymarket Phoenix stand out amongst the Arriva buses, so Arriva could operate it and compliment the 47 (Fenham) and reintroduce a service in Cowgate albeit limited. They have a scholars route from Great Park to Benwell via Cowgate, so not miles from where they operate, although Otterburn would be a bit further don't Arriva serve West Woodburn already?

Be interesting to see if Phoenix keep it for the long term and bizarre it was rerouted through Fenham duplicating other services when they were awarded it. 

(24 Aug 2022, 8:29 pm)DeltaMan wrote It's very posh bus territory down the bottom of the 46 route. It's no wonder the locals aren't endeared by a dodgy Solo!

(24 Aug 2022, 6:38 pm)Storx wrote Personally I think the minibus PVR will be 12 once it's all finished including the 4 on the 57/57A. The fact they're getting 14 MMC's which is just too many for the current services excluding the 57/57A and the fact no doubt they're heading to Ashington since the new Blyth depot has no space for minibuses.

What goes who knows but believe the PVR's are:

57/57A: 4
46/46A/51/51A: 5
553: 2
555: 1
55: 3

Personally I think the 46/46A might survive in some form (it has subsidies connected to it, with the 51 which I believe is fully subsidised), it's the 55 I'm less confident about, ditch the 55 and you've got the PVR 12.


I have a feeling the 342 might serve the Great Park once the new roads all open over going along via Hazelrigg which is more operational than anything. Would give the likes of Seaton Burn, Wideopen and Kingston Park a link to the new Morrison's store that's opening along there which would actually be useful.

(24 Aug 2022, 8:53 pm)mb134 wrote Will an E200 with USB charging and WiFi tempt them?