Hey guys I have noticed alot of you criticizing the 6.7ltr 250bhp, 752lb ft torque cummins unit that ADL have chosen for this bus.

I would love to know what you think of Volvos 5.1 ltr 240bhp, 671lb ft torque for the B9TLs replacement the B5TL then.

In addition to that The wrightbus streetdeck & optare metro decker have a mercedes 5.1 ltr 228bhp, 663lb ft torque engine.

(15 Jun 2014, 4:07 pm)Volvo89 wrote Hey guys I have noticed alot of you criticizing the 6.7ltr 250bhp, 752lb ft torque cummins unit that ADL have chosen for this bus.

I would love to know what you think of Volvos 5.1 ltr 240bhp, 671lb ft torque for the B9TLs replacement the B5TL then.

In addition to that The wrightbus streetdeck & optare metro decker have a mercedes 5.1 ltr 228bhp, 663lb ft torque engine.

But they haven't got the issue of turbocharging. When ADL talk about reliability, who s ADL's biggest buyer? Stagecoach! ADL are talking about reliability in terms of your typical Killi to Chapel House or North Walbottle; not your Ashington to Newcastle, Hexham to Newcastle, Berwick / Alnwick to Newcastle, Newcastle to M.Boro or M.Boro to Scarborough.

ADL need to work with an engine manufacturer who will come up with an engine for long distance runs that is:

- At least 270bhp.
- A torque and average RPM that matches the speed of the vehicle and doesn't cause stress to the engine or other components.
- An ECU that selects the gearing ratio from gearbox by speed and not comfort or economy.
- With ref to the above: 0-15, 0- 25, 25 - 35, 35-45, 45 and above. Not settling into 4th gear at 30mph and a higher gearing ratio for higher speeds.
- NO TURBOCHARGING!

But this bus was developed as the result of a massive consultation with engineering teams from all over the UK? Maybe what you want and the bus industry wants are two completely different things?

(15 Jun 2014, 7:49 pm)aureolin wrote But this bus was developed as the result of a massive consultation with engineering teams from all over the UK? Maybe what you want and the bus industry wants are two completely different things?

I agree with that! 70 operators were involved (according to the video), so it's not like they've only asked one or two.

Plus, thinking about it, Go North East have a fair few double-decker routes, but only really the 'Tyne Tees Express' and possibly some of the longer-distance Arriva services, such as the X18 and X93, could really justify such a vehicle, so it doesn't really appeal to the masses when you think about the amount of double-decker routes Stagecoach have.

Well put it this way, I'd deem these routes in the North East worthy of a heavyweight powerful decker:

Arriva: X93, X10, X11, X14, X15, X18, X20, X21, X22 (54)
GNE: TEN, X1, X9, X10. (38)

In total including GNE's Northern Spares and Arriva's various spares (Sapphire) that's 92 vehicles. I have very rarely seen an Olympian broken on or on the back of a tow truck. Look at the number of times they had to bail out the B7's on the X9/X10. I agree with economical buses for city routes but for long distance and demanding routes, there is no room for economy to sacrafice power. Power and reliability are first and foremost when it comes to long distances. Economy is a bonus.

But is there such a bus on the market? As much as I'd love a fleet of olympians and atlanteans, things have moved on and it's never going to happen. It's Euro 6 from now on, and even in the event of QCS coming in, Nexus are going to fine non compliance in this respect. If a heavyweight decker with no regard of economy is whats needed wouldn't you have thought every company would have screamed for this in consultation?

(16 Jun 2014, 6:46 am)aureolin wrote But is there such a bus on the market? As much as I'd love a fleet of olympians and atlanteans, things have moved on and it's never going to happen. It's Euro 6 from now on, and even in the event of QCS coming in, Nexus are going to fine non compliance in this respect. If a heavyweight decker with no regard of economy is whats needed wouldn't you have thought every company would have screamed for this in consultation?

Here!, Here!. Some people are just never ever satisfied.

(16 Jun 2014, 6:46 am)aureolin wrote But is there such a bus on the market? As much as I'd love a fleet of olympians and atlanteans, things have moved on and it's never going to happen. It's Euro 6 from now on, and even in the event of QCS coming in, Nexus are going to fine non compliance in this respect. If a heavyweight decker with no regard of economy is whats needed wouldn't you have thought every company would have screamed for this in consultation?

I do agree with Davey somewhat.

Stagecoach UK are ADL's biggest buyer, and in my opinion, the majority of their work is quite capable of being operated with vehicles similar to the specification of the ADL E400MMC. Operators like Stagecoach will want to have a vehicle with better fuel economy because they don't need vehicles with loads of power.

I don't think many operators would actually think about purchasing an ADL product if they wanted a powerful vehicle which delivers comfort and reliability for intensive long distance service work - I'd suggest that they're more likely to go to Volvo for that.

There are operators who require more powerful vehicles for their more intensive service work (see Davey's post for a list in the North East alone). It's just a shame that they're left in a position whereby they can't actually offer upgrades to these services because there are no suitable vehicles available on the market - with all manufacturers following in each other's steps by going light-weight and economical.

(15 Jun 2014, 7:11 pm)DaveyBowyer wrote ADL need to work with an engine manufacturer who will come up with an engine for long distance runs that is:

- At least 270bhp.
- A torque and average RPM that matches the speed of the vehicle and doesn't cause stress to the engine or other components.
- An ECU that selects the gearing ratio from gearbox by speed and not comfort or economy.
- With ref to the above: 0-15, 0- 25, 25 - 35, 35-45, 45 and above. Not settling into 4th gear at 30mph and a higher gearing ratio for higher speeds.
- NO TURBOCHARGING!

In reality, Cummins will already have such engines, the issues are fitting them onto a double deck bus chassis, with weight restrictions, without losing any passenger capacity from the increased engine size. This is a problem Scania have had, for Euro 6 their own 230/270bhp 9 litre engine is just too big to mount on a standard bus chassis, so they're using a 6.7 litre Cummins instead, with 280bhp.

I agree a new product is required for the UK market, specifically designed for higher capacity interurban bus services, though the reality is there's only a small market base for buses compared to cars, an even smaller market base for interurban low floor double deckers, resulting in the development costs being too high for it to be economically viable. As such, manufacturers have to provide a vehicle that meets the needs of most operators for most of their work, the reality being that work is town/city or short distance interurban/"suburban" type services.

(17 Jun 2014, 8:01 am)Scott wrote Just a little to add...
Stagecoach have always bought Alexander buses pretty much from day 1. Sir Brian Souter the founder and chairman of Stagecoach actually owns part of Alexander Dennis (about 40% as far as I know).

Yes, we've discussed that before somewhere on the forum and the massive 'discounts' that Stagecoach get on ADL products as a result (although I think the use of the word 'discounts' was disputed).

With ADL building the MMC, I'm actually quite confident that with the amount of thought that they've put into it, that the 6.7 Cummins unit will cope with anything upto mid range interurban work (TEN, Red Arrows, Blyth and
Ashington express buses) as long as it's well looked after. But, for the endurance market, it would be nice for ADL to offer a Volvo chassis with the D8K engine. It would certainly boost the popularity even more.

I don't know whether folk have seen this:- http://www.route-one.net/vehicles/adl-en...-industry/