Arriva North East: Latest News & Discussion - February 2014
Arriva North East: Latest News & Discussion - February 2014
(24 Feb 2014, 7:40 pm)aureolin And cost cutting isn't unique to transport operators. We read about redundancies every other day in the news. All because of cost cutting. It doesn't make it right, but they're paid to maintain a target profit margin.
(24 Feb 2014, 7:40 pm)aureolin And cost cutting isn't unique to transport operators. We read about redundancies every other day in the news. All because of cost cutting. It doesn't make it right, but they're paid to maintain a target profit margin.
(24 Feb 2014, 7:25 pm)tyresmoke There's a fine line between propping up evening/Sunday services and giving value to the service at off peak, less profitable times, in order to sell weekly tickets to your regular passengers. Especially at these off peak times, if you're going to chop services to the bone and offer connections then you have to make sure they work properly.
(24 Feb 2014, 7:25 pm)tyresmoke There's a fine line between propping up evening/Sunday services and giving value to the service at off peak, less profitable times, in order to sell weekly tickets to your regular passengers. Especially at these off peak times, if you're going to chop services to the bone and offer connections then you have to make sure they work properly.
(24 Feb 2014, 7:40 pm)aureolin I often think that some 10 min frequencies could be reduced from say 6 buses an hour to 4 an hour, allowing buses to run to a similar frequency into the evening. The staff and running costs should be similar - just more spread out. It should theoretically maintain the same profit margin also, as those travelling from A to B throughout the day will do so whether their bus is every 10 mins or every 15 mins. That's an alternative to propping up an early morning/late night/Sunday service. Simply abandoning customers who don't travel throughout the day is not. Maybe this is something a VPA would achieve though?
(24 Feb 2014, 7:40 pm)aureolin I often think that some 10 min frequencies could be reduced from say 6 buses an hour to 4 an hour, allowing buses to run to a similar frequency into the evening. The staff and running costs should be similar - just more spread out. It should theoretically maintain the same profit margin also, as those travelling from A to B throughout the day will do so whether their bus is every 10 mins or every 15 mins. That's an alternative to propping up an early morning/late night/Sunday service. Simply abandoning customers who don't travel throughout the day is not. Maybe this is something a VPA would achieve though?
(24 Feb 2014, 9:53 pm)VolvoMarkII You ask any bus company employee, whether they are directly involved with service amendments or not and they will tell you that reducing frequencies DOES reduce passenger numbers and revenue. Even something as seemingly small as 6 to 4 per hour.
Why do you think bus operators on services without direct competition maintain these levels of frequency on some of their important routes? Because they know that it is warranted. If your theory was right, surely they would reduce and save the cost assuming they will retain all passengers. But, they know that isnt the case, they will loose out.
So doing what you suggest will hurt any service financially and any VPA would be silly to operate as such. Why move a third of the cost into times of the day when there is very little revenue? Doesnt even sound sensible.
(24 Feb 2014, 9:53 pm)VolvoMarkII You ask any bus company employee, whether they are directly involved with service amendments or not and they will tell you that reducing frequencies DOES reduce passenger numbers and revenue. Even something as seemingly small as 6 to 4 per hour.
Why do you think bus operators on services without direct competition maintain these levels of frequency on some of their important routes? Because they know that it is warranted. If your theory was right, surely they would reduce and save the cost assuming they will retain all passengers. But, they know that isnt the case, they will loose out.
So doing what you suggest will hurt any service financially and any VPA would be silly to operate as such. Why move a third of the cost into times of the day when there is very little revenue? Doesnt even sound sensible.
(24 Feb 2014, 9:56 pm)aureolin What is your solution to prevent the alienating of fare paying customers then? Or is it better to keep forcing them on to other means of transport?
(24 Feb 2014, 9:56 pm)aureolin What is your solution to prevent the alienating of fare paying customers then? Or is it better to keep forcing them on to other means of transport?
(24 Feb 2014, 9:58 pm)VolvoMarkII I didnt say I had a solution, simply trying to explain the logic behind why bus operators slash and burn evening services in lieu of daytime frequencies.
(24 Feb 2014, 9:58 pm)VolvoMarkII I didnt say I had a solution, simply trying to explain the logic behind why bus operators slash and burn evening services in lieu of daytime frequencies.
(24 Feb 2014, 10:00 pm)aureolin I appreciate that, and also appreciate that what I've said may not work. But there again I'm an outsider looking in. There must be a solution out there, as the current approach of "do nothing" is as equally unsustainable going forward.
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(24 Feb 2014, 10:00 pm)aureolin I appreciate that, and also appreciate that what I've said may not work. But there again I'm an outsider looking in. There must be a solution out there, as the current approach of "do nothing" is as equally unsustainable going forward.
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(24 Feb 2014, 10:00 pm)aureolin I appreciate that, and also appreciate that what I've said may not work. But there again I'm an outsider looking in. There must be a solution out there, as the current approach of "do nothing" is as equally unsustainable going forward.
(24 Feb 2014, 10:00 pm)aureolin I appreciate that, and also appreciate that what I've said may not work. But there again I'm an outsider looking in. There must be a solution out there, as the current approach of "do nothing" is as equally unsustainable going forward.
(24 Feb 2014, 10:13 pm)VolvoMarkII You are right and historically this is where the local authority would step in and support additional journeys, but as we all know, there is no money for that any more.
The situation can spiral out of control and create the death of a service by constant cuts to the operating day.
(24 Feb 2014, 10:13 pm)VolvoMarkII You are right and historically this is where the local authority would step in and support additional journeys, but as we all know, there is no money for that any more.
The situation can spiral out of control and create the death of a service by constant cuts to the operating day.
(24 Feb 2014, 10:53 pm)andreos1 Maybe it is time the operators realised the bubble has burst and the days of big margins have gone.
Local authorities aren't stepping in any more and punters who are struggling to pay bills - but possibly would still get down the club, aren't (just like aureolin said), because of the cuts to services (either funded or commercially).
Like most people, I don't have the answer, but the operators aren't doing themselves any favours in the eyes of passengers, with constant cuts - glossed over with ticket deals and a shiny new bus.
If passengers were offered the choice between a swanky bus with mod cons and their current service versus a lower spec bus which was more frequent (funded by the savings made by purchasing a cheaper bus), I wonder what the consensus would be?
(24 Feb 2014, 10:53 pm)andreos1 Maybe it is time the operators realised the bubble has burst and the days of big margins have gone.
Local authorities aren't stepping in any more and punters who are struggling to pay bills - but possibly would still get down the club, aren't (just like aureolin said), because of the cuts to services (either funded or commercially).
Like most people, I don't have the answer, but the operators aren't doing themselves any favours in the eyes of passengers, with constant cuts - glossed over with ticket deals and a shiny new bus.
If passengers were offered the choice between a swanky bus with mod cons and their current service versus a lower spec bus which was more frequent (funded by the savings made by purchasing a cheaper bus), I wonder what the consensus would be?
(24 Feb 2014, 11:12 pm)Kuyoyo Except, regardless of what bus is used, the costs are still the same. So, regardless, it's catch 22 - as tyresmoke said, the day of major evening services is over and before too much longer, you might even see major trunk routes in major urban areas end earlier on a evening rather than run until midnight.
(24 Feb 2014, 11:12 pm)Kuyoyo Except, regardless of what bus is used, the costs are still the same. So, regardless, it's catch 22 - as tyresmoke said, the day of major evening services is over and before too much longer, you might even see major trunk routes in major urban areas end earlier on a evening rather than run until midnight.
(25 Feb 2014, 7:49 am)andreos1 I agree, we will start to see more services run off earlier and start later- unless operators start to think differently.
However, I disagree about costs.
The type of vehicle and fuel economy differ, depending on vehicle type.
A proactive approach to fuel purchasing and insurance costs can also play a part.
No idea about other operators, but Go ahead have drastically cut insurance costs and have bulk fuel policies which mean they have bought fuel for as little as 49p per litre recently.
(25 Feb 2014, 7:49 am)andreos1 I agree, we will start to see more services run off earlier and start later- unless operators start to think differently.
However, I disagree about costs.
The type of vehicle and fuel economy differ, depending on vehicle type.
A proactive approach to fuel purchasing and insurance costs can also play a part.
No idea about other operators, but Go ahead have drastically cut insurance costs and have bulk fuel policies which mean they have bought fuel for as little as 49p per litre recently.
(25 Feb 2014, 8:12 am)Dan Of course this does not mean every bus belonging to the Go-Ahead parent company can refuel for as little as 49p per litre.
There are instances whereby 'outstationed' vehicles refuel away from Go North East premises - I believe that the vehicles based at Peterlee for example refuel on council-owned premises, with a deal set up there.
That figure will, if I am correct, exclude additional resources required for refuelling on modern-day vehicles at the very least. Recently manufactured vehicles such as the Mercedes Citaro and the Volvo B8RLE all require a substance called "AdBlue" (Google it if you're not familiar with it).This will come at an additional cost - how significant this additional cost is, I do not know.
(25 Feb 2014, 8:12 am)Dan Of course this does not mean every bus belonging to the Go-Ahead parent company can refuel for as little as 49p per litre.
There are instances whereby 'outstationed' vehicles refuel away from Go North East premises - I believe that the vehicles based at Peterlee for example refuel on council-owned premises, with a deal set up there.
That figure will, if I am correct, exclude additional resources required for refuelling on modern-day vehicles at the very least. Recently manufactured vehicles such as the Mercedes Citaro and the Volvo B8RLE all require a substance called "AdBlue" (Google it if you're not familiar with it).This will come at an additional cost - how significant this additional cost is, I do not know.
(24 Feb 2014, 5:57 pm)Dan Who said my sightings of service 24 were during school holidays? My school is situated on a road which service 24 uses, and when one gets bored, one may look out of the window...
You tend to notice if one day it's an Omni, one day it's a Pulsar, one day it's a DAF... It should be single deck, but anything goes. I'd note them on the Rare & Odd Workings thread, but of course I am in a classroom quite some distance away from the vehicle itself so I'm never able to identify them...
(24 Feb 2014, 5:57 pm)Dan Who said my sightings of service 24 were during school holidays? My school is situated on a road which service 24 uses, and when one gets bored, one may look out of the window...
You tend to notice if one day it's an Omni, one day it's a Pulsar, one day it's a DAF... It should be single deck, but anything goes. I'd note them on the Rare & Odd Workings thread, but of course I am in a classroom quite some distance away from the vehicle itself so I'm never able to identify them...
(24 Feb 2014, 2:41 pm)cbma06 About service 23 Sunderland-Hartlepool:
Ive seen plenty of times at Peterlee bus station seeing the Arriva 23 pulling in and only a few people getting on it and then GNE X35 pulls in and a bus load of passengers boarding the X35, the 23 and X35 pulls into Peterlee bus station each way practically a few minutes apart, even though most passengers boarding the X35 have GNE ticket passes which are cheaper than Arriva tickets and the GNE passes can be used on other GNE buses in the areas and Arriva day tickets etc... can only be used on a select of services as Arriva does not have a large presence in East Durham no more (by local day tickets). Also waiting for the bus and you see a solo 23 and you let it passed just in case its packed and also the solos look abit compact but the X35 scanias are a lot better and when you board the bus you have more freedom. Only reason why the arriva 23 gets full sometimes between Sunderland and Peterlee is due to Arriva service 24 being over 30 minutes late on a 30 minute frequency, lately the Arriva service 22 from Hartlepool still has reliability issues still with the service being roughly 10 minutes later coming from Hartlepool to Peterlee.
Im more surprised that GNE hasn't took on this service between Hartlepool-Peterlee-Sunderland, also surprised that Stagecoach are still in content with their beehive of services in Sunderland and hasn't ran a service between Sunderland and Hartlepool as it would link up their services and give more better value for money if a Stagecoach pass holder wanting to travel between Sunderland areas to Stockton areas.
(24 Feb 2014, 2:41 pm)cbma06 About service 23 Sunderland-Hartlepool:
Ive seen plenty of times at Peterlee bus station seeing the Arriva 23 pulling in and only a few people getting on it and then GNE X35 pulls in and a bus load of passengers boarding the X35, the 23 and X35 pulls into Peterlee bus station each way practically a few minutes apart, even though most passengers boarding the X35 have GNE ticket passes which are cheaper than Arriva tickets and the GNE passes can be used on other GNE buses in the areas and Arriva day tickets etc... can only be used on a select of services as Arriva does not have a large presence in East Durham no more (by local day tickets). Also waiting for the bus and you see a solo 23 and you let it passed just in case its packed and also the solos look abit compact but the X35 scanias are a lot better and when you board the bus you have more freedom. Only reason why the arriva 23 gets full sometimes between Sunderland and Peterlee is due to Arriva service 24 being over 30 minutes late on a 30 minute frequency, lately the Arriva service 22 from Hartlepool still has reliability issues still with the service being roughly 10 minutes later coming from Hartlepool to Peterlee.
Im more surprised that GNE hasn't took on this service between Hartlepool-Peterlee-Sunderland, also surprised that Stagecoach are still in content with their beehive of services in Sunderland and hasn't ran a service between Sunderland and Hartlepool as it would link up their services and give more better value for money if a Stagecoach pass holder wanting to travel between Sunderland areas to Stockton areas.
(24 Feb 2014, 5:36 pm)tyresmoke 24s are allocated DAF deckers too... One works the 24X too.
(24 Feb 2014, 5:36 pm)tyresmoke 24s are allocated DAF deckers too... One works the 24X too.
(24 Feb 2014, 5:57 pm)Dan Who said my sightings of service 24 were during school holidays? My school is situated on a road which service 24 uses, and when one gets bored, one may look out of the window...
You tend to notice if one day it's an Omni, one day it's a Pulsar, one day it's a DAF... It should be single deck, but anything goes. I'd note them on the Rare & Odd Workings thread, but of course I am in a classroom quite some distance away from the vehicle itself so I'm never able to identify them...
(24 Feb 2014, 5:57 pm)Dan Who said my sightings of service 24 were during school holidays? My school is situated on a road which service 24 uses, and when one gets bored, one may look out of the window...
You tend to notice if one day it's an Omni, one day it's a Pulsar, one day it's a DAF... It should be single deck, but anything goes. I'd note them on the Rare & Odd Workings thread, but of course I am in a classroom quite some distance away from the vehicle itself so I'm never able to identify them...
(25 Feb 2014, 8:28 am)andreos1 The outstationed vehicles will have additional costs, but these are obviously outweighed by lower wages and shorter runs to/from the depot.
What would be an unprofitable or at least close to margins service if based at Deptford, can become profitable due to it being stationed at Peterlee
(25 Feb 2014, 8:28 am)andreos1 The outstationed vehicles will have additional costs, but these are obviously outweighed by lower wages and shorter runs to/from the depot.
What would be an unprofitable or at least close to margins service if based at Deptford, can become profitable due to it being stationed at Peterlee
Three pensioners getting off the 1600ish 23 service arrival into Sunderland; with two kids, three fare paying passengers and four pensioners getting on at Park Lane towards Hartlepool.
Usually far fewer passengers get on for that 1605ish departure from Park Lane, so I'm impressed...despite that loading still being poor given the time of day.
(25 Feb 2014, 12:42 pm)palatine3833 There are actually 3 boards Monday-Friday which are supposed to be allocated DAF deckers, but usually they get single deckers as the early inspector believe the doubles are best utilised elsewhere.
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(25 Feb 2014, 12:42 pm)palatine3833 There are actually 3 boards Monday-Friday which are supposed to be allocated DAF deckers, but usually they get single deckers as the early inspector believe the doubles are best utilised elsewhere.
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