Arriva Future Orders
Arriva Future Orders
(02 Oct 2020, 11:07 pm)Bazza You’re missing the point. Arriva seem to be an easy target on here. The negativity for them is astounding, only matched by the impression that GNE can do no wrong. I made a couple of points earlier on in this thread and was surprised nobody picked up on them. Either nobody disagreed with what I said or the points that I made were widely off the mark. Which was it?Don't really want to go on a rant, but you're right. All of the big 3 are just as bad as each other cutting services and forcing Nexus, DCC & NCC to contract out sections and/or services to ill-equipped independents. To add on to your point Havent Arriva Merseyside gained new Enviro 200MC EV's within the last 18 months.
As to the comments quoted above, where is the evidence that DB are sucking Arriva dry? If it’s your opinion, then say so, or provide the evidence, don’t just make a statement purporting it to be a fact.
(02 Oct 2020, 11:07 pm)Bazza You’re missing the point. Arriva seem to be an easy target on here. The negativity for them is astounding, only matched by the impression that GNE can do no wrong. I made a couple of points earlier on in this thread and was surprised nobody picked up on them. Either nobody disagreed with what I said or the points that I made were widely off the mark. Which was it?Don't really want to go on a rant, but you're right. All of the big 3 are just as bad as each other cutting services and forcing Nexus, DCC & NCC to contract out sections and/or services to ill-equipped independents. To add on to your point Havent Arriva Merseyside gained new Enviro 200MC EV's within the last 18 months.
As to the comments quoted above, where is the evidence that DB are sucking Arriva dry? If it’s your opinion, then say so, or provide the evidence, don’t just make a statement purporting it to be a fact.
(03 Oct 2020, 9:49 am)ASX_Terranova Don't really want to go on a rant, but you're right. All of the big 3 are just as bad as each other cutting services and forcing Nexus, DCC & NCC to contract out sections and/or services to ill-equipped independents. To add on to your point Havent Arriva Merseyside gained new Enviro 200MC EV's within the last 18 months.That was 3 years ago (67 Plates)
(03 Oct 2020, 9:49 am)ASX_Terranova Don't really want to go on a rant, but you're right. All of the big 3 are just as bad as each other cutting services and forcing Nexus, DCC & NCC to contract out sections and/or services to ill-equipped independents. To add on to your point Havent Arriva Merseyside gained new Enviro 200MC EV's within the last 18 months.That was 3 years ago (67 Plates)
(02 Oct 2020, 11:07 pm)Bazza You’re missing the point. Arriva seem to be an easy target on here. The negativity for them is astounding, only matched by the impression that GNE can do no wrong. I made a couple of points earlier on in this thread and was surprised nobody picked up on them. Either nobody disagreed with what I said or the points that I made were widely off the mark. Which was it?
As to the comments quoted above, where is the evidence that DB are sucking Arriva dry? If it’s your opinion, then say so, or provide the evidence, don’t just make a statement purporting it to be a fact.
(02 Oct 2020, 11:07 pm)Bazza You’re missing the point. Arriva seem to be an easy target on here. The negativity for them is astounding, only matched by the impression that GNE can do no wrong. I made a couple of points earlier on in this thread and was surprised nobody picked up on them. Either nobody disagreed with what I said or the points that I made were widely off the mark. Which was it?
As to the comments quoted above, where is the evidence that DB are sucking Arriva dry? If it’s your opinion, then say so, or provide the evidence, don’t just make a statement purporting it to be a fact.
The average age of the fleet at Blyth is 11 years. The newest bus at the depot is 8 years old. If that is not under investment by DB I don't know what is.
(03 Oct 2020, 7:57 pm)Driver9*** The average age of the fleet at Blyth is 11 years. The newest bus at the depot is 8 years old. If that is not under investment by DB I don't know what is.
(03 Oct 2020, 7:57 pm)Driver9*** The average age of the fleet at Blyth is 11 years. The newest bus at the depot is 8 years old. If that is not under investment by DB I don't know what is.
(03 Oct 2020, 7:57 pm)Driver9*** The average age of the fleet at Blyth is 11 years. The newest bus at the depot is 8 years old. If that is not under investment by DB I don't know what is.
(03 Oct 2020, 7:57 pm)Driver9*** The average age of the fleet at Blyth is 11 years. The newest bus at the depot is 8 years old. If that is not under investment by DB I don't know what is.
(01 Oct 2020, 5:42 pm)Storx Some of you on here are really blinded by shiny new things mind so much Arriva hate on here just because they don't buy new buses all the time. I might be different but personally I'd rather sit on a 10 year old bus (which is not old and doesn't need replacing) rather than sitting on a Gateshead Central Taxi service because my local company doesn't fancy running the service at night or having to use a taxi because my service just disappeared over night. Just looking at North of the Tyne on an Arriva vs Stagecoach vs GNE level.Both Arriva and Stagecoach in the North East, despite being significantly smaller operations than Go North East, both make more profit than Go North East.
I can't name one cut in the past 5 years between both Arriva and Stagecoach (admit I don't follow Stagecoach so might be something there with the 18/32/32A that's changed believe they were within 5 years) but can name some improvements. X30 direct to Blyth, 57A on Sundays, X24 direct to Sunderland, 22 extension to Cobalt, 1 extension to Cobalt etc.
Then there's GNE; 5 no longer through the tunnel,309 cut to 20 minutes, 310 cut to 20 minutes, 58 scrapped (no link to Gateshead), 1 cut to 20 minutes, 42 abandoned East of Wallsend, 40/41 butchered in half. 11/19/40/41/42 served by Gateshead Taxis in the evening. Improvements 19 evening 3 runs from Cobalt.
Arriva really aren't that bad; First is a bad company who've just shut depots down recently as they just don't fancy them anymore leaving places completely abandoned. I really don't think Arriva Northumbria will struggle to sell any of their depots regardless to the vehicles they have there heck Go Ahead just bought a depot in Manchester (GoNorthWest) from First which was an absolute basket case and inherited an ancient fleet from there - someone would be interested. Arriva's problem areas are down south in the Medway and Midlands where the fleet really is getting old and they'll be the ones they'll struggle to shift imo.
Just to add in their last accounts:
Arriva Midlands: 80k Profit
Arriva Midlands North: 2.86m Loss
Arriva Kent and Surrey: 2.32m Loss
Whereas we're I believe Arriva's strongest area:
Arriva Durham County: 4.429m Profit
Arriva Northumbria: 1.50m Profit
Arriva Yorkshire: 4.41m Profit
which is higher than GNE.
(01 Oct 2020, 5:42 pm)Storx Some of you on here are really blinded by shiny new things mind so much Arriva hate on here just because they don't buy new buses all the time. I might be different but personally I'd rather sit on a 10 year old bus (which is not old and doesn't need replacing) rather than sitting on a Gateshead Central Taxi service because my local company doesn't fancy running the service at night or having to use a taxi because my service just disappeared over night. Just looking at North of the Tyne on an Arriva vs Stagecoach vs GNE level.Both Arriva and Stagecoach in the North East, despite being significantly smaller operations than Go North East, both make more profit than Go North East.
I can't name one cut in the past 5 years between both Arriva and Stagecoach (admit I don't follow Stagecoach so might be something there with the 18/32/32A that's changed believe they were within 5 years) but can name some improvements. X30 direct to Blyth, 57A on Sundays, X24 direct to Sunderland, 22 extension to Cobalt, 1 extension to Cobalt etc.
Then there's GNE; 5 no longer through the tunnel,309 cut to 20 minutes, 310 cut to 20 minutes, 58 scrapped (no link to Gateshead), 1 cut to 20 minutes, 42 abandoned East of Wallsend, 40/41 butchered in half. 11/19/40/41/42 served by Gateshead Taxis in the evening. Improvements 19 evening 3 runs from Cobalt.
Arriva really aren't that bad; First is a bad company who've just shut depots down recently as they just don't fancy them anymore leaving places completely abandoned. I really don't think Arriva Northumbria will struggle to sell any of their depots regardless to the vehicles they have there heck Go Ahead just bought a depot in Manchester (GoNorthWest) from First which was an absolute basket case and inherited an ancient fleet from there - someone would be interested. Arriva's problem areas are down south in the Medway and Midlands where the fleet really is getting old and they'll be the ones they'll struggle to shift imo.
Just to add in their last accounts:
Arriva Midlands: 80k Profit
Arriva Midlands North: 2.86m Loss
Arriva Kent and Surrey: 2.32m Loss
Whereas we're I believe Arriva's strongest area:
Arriva Durham County: 4.429m Profit
Arriva Northumbria: 1.50m Profit
Arriva Yorkshire: 4.41m Profit
which is higher than GNE.
(03 Oct 2020, 9:15 pm)Storx The average age of the fleet at Percy Main is 9 years. The newest bus at the depot is 7 years old. If that is not under investment by GoAhead I don't know what is.
The average age of the fleet at Hartlepool is 11 years. The newest bus at the depot is 9 years old. If that is not under investment by Stagecoach I don't know what is.
Just saying...
(03 Oct 2020, 9:15 pm)Storx The average age of the fleet at Percy Main is 9 years. The newest bus at the depot is 7 years old. If that is not under investment by GoAhead I don't know what is.
The average age of the fleet at Hartlepool is 11 years. The newest bus at the depot is 9 years old. If that is not under investment by Stagecoach I don't know what is.
Just saying...
(04 Oct 2020, 12:06 pm)Dan Excluding school buses (which, on paper, should only be on scholars), the average age of the fleet at Percy Main is actually 8.2 and the youngest bus is actually 6 years old (the 63-plate Volvo B9 which were new in 2014). There is quite a substantial difference between an average age of 8 and 11.And not forgetting that 6099-6117 have been extensively refurbished and were only 5-5.5 year old when completed.
(04 Oct 2020, 12:06 pm)Dan Excluding school buses (which, on paper, should only be on scholars), the average age of the fleet at Percy Main is actually 8.2 and the youngest bus is actually 6 years old (the 63-plate Volvo B9 which were new in 2014). There is quite a substantial difference between an average age of 8 and 11.And not forgetting that 6099-6117 have been extensively refurbished and were only 5-5.5 year old when completed.
(04 Oct 2020, 12:06 pm)Dan Excluding school buses (which, on paper, should only be on scholars), the average age of the fleet at Percy Main is actually 8.2 and the youngest bus is actually 6 years old (the 63-plate Volvo B9 which were new in 2014). There is quite a substantial difference between an average age of 8 and 11.
(04 Oct 2020, 1:24 pm)L469 YVK And not forgetting that 6099-6117 have been extensively refurbished and were only 5-5.5 year old when completed.
At least Go North East do their refurbs properly unlike Arriva who just take an ex London Gemini and tart it up as a premium 'express' bus. Although Go North East are refurbishing 6001-6007 and 6049-6055 which are 8-9 year old, they are a 'heavyweight' vehicle type and subsequently have a long shelf life left in them. Probably wouldn't surprise me if they were kept in front line service until about 12-15 year old.
(04 Oct 2020, 12:06 pm)Dan Excluding school buses (which, on paper, should only be on scholars), the average age of the fleet at Percy Main is actually 8.2 and the youngest bus is actually 6 years old (the 63-plate Volvo B9 which were new in 2014). There is quite a substantial difference between an average age of 8 and 11.
(04 Oct 2020, 1:24 pm)L469 YVK And not forgetting that 6099-6117 have been extensively refurbished and were only 5-5.5 year old when completed.
At least Go North East do their refurbs properly unlike Arriva who just take an ex London Gemini and tart it up as a premium 'express' bus. Although Go North East are refurbishing 6001-6007 and 6049-6055 which are 8-9 year old, they are a 'heavyweight' vehicle type and subsequently have a long shelf life left in them. Probably wouldn't surprise me if they were kept in front line service until about 12-15 year old.
(04 Oct 2020, 3:48 pm)Storx tbf it was more a point if you pick out one depot it doesn't give a true representation of the whole company. It's 7 years rounded though for B9's.Of the 5 old deckers 7485 and 7487 spend as much time breaking down and/or under repair as they do on the road. 7410/11 are decent enough motors considering their age, I've not had the "pleasure" of trying 7490 yet. Then throw in the fact the two surviving commanders 1401/2 are becoming very unreliable and the six 15 year old dennis darts very much on borrowed time......
There's no ex London Gemini's in frontline service at Blyth which are all spares. I'd rather have a refurbished ex London Gemini than a Omnidekka any day.
X7/X8/X9: 1493, 1501 - 1505, 7601 - 7608
X10/X11: 7611 - 7617, 7621 - 7625
308: 7628 - 7635
Spares: 1497, 7620, 7636 - 7637
The ex London deckers are being used on the expresses atm though to give the 1 and 2 full size singles and the X7/X8/X9 deckers for social distancing.
(04 Oct 2020, 3:48 pm)Storx tbf it was more a point if you pick out one depot it doesn't give a true representation of the whole company. It's 7 years rounded though for B9's.Of the 5 old deckers 7485 and 7487 spend as much time breaking down and/or under repair as they do on the road. 7410/11 are decent enough motors considering their age, I've not had the "pleasure" of trying 7490 yet. Then throw in the fact the two surviving commanders 1401/2 are becoming very unreliable and the six 15 year old dennis darts very much on borrowed time......
There's no ex London Gemini's in frontline service at Blyth which are all spares. I'd rather have a refurbished ex London Gemini than a Omnidekka any day.
X7/X8/X9: 1493, 1501 - 1505, 7601 - 7608
X10/X11: 7611 - 7617, 7621 - 7625
308: 7628 - 7635
Spares: 1497, 7620, 7636 - 7637
The ex London deckers are being used on the expresses atm though to give the 1 and 2 full size singles and the X7/X8/X9 deckers for social distancing.
(04 Oct 2020, 1:24 pm)L469 YVK And not forgetting that 6099-6117 have been extensively refurbished and were only 5-5.5 year old when completed.I think this post proves my point perfectly
At least Go North East do their refurbs properly unlike Arriva who just take an ex London Gemini and tart it up as a premium 'express' bus. Although Go North East are refurbishing 6001-6007 and 6049-6055 which are 8-9 year old, they are a 'heavyweight' vehicle type and subsequently have a long shelf life left in them. Probably wouldn't surprise me if they were kept in front line service until about 12-15 year old.
(04 Oct 2020, 1:24 pm)L469 YVK And not forgetting that 6099-6117 have been extensively refurbished and were only 5-5.5 year old when completed.I think this post proves my point perfectly
At least Go North East do their refurbs properly unlike Arriva who just take an ex London Gemini and tart it up as a premium 'express' bus. Although Go North East are refurbishing 6001-6007 and 6049-6055 which are 8-9 year old, they are a 'heavyweight' vehicle type and subsequently have a long shelf life left in them. Probably wouldn't surprise me if they were kept in front line service until about 12-15 year old.
I do think that if it does get sold off bit by bit, Ashington depot would fit perfectly within GNE's current strategy. Only trouble would be service number parity for existing and incoming services so this is what I'd suggest:
Current GNE services:
- X15 > X4
- X20 > 20X or X90
- X30 > X2
- X31 > X3
- X32 > X3A
Incoming Arriva services:
- X15 = Same
- X20 = Same
- X21/ X22 > X31/X32 (Paying homage to previous incarnations)
- 35 > 435
(05 Oct 2020, 5:08 pm)L469 YVK I do think that if it does get sold off bit by bit, Ashington depot would fit perfectly within GNE's current strategy. Only trouble would be service number parity for existing and incoming services so this is what I'd suggest:Do you think GNE are in a position to buy Arriva Northumbria?
Current GNE services:
- X15 > X4
- X20 > 20X or X90
- X30 > X2
- X31 > X3
- X32 > X3A
Incoming Arriva services:
- X15 = Same
- X20 = Same
- X21/ X22 > X31/X32 (Paying homage to previous incarnations)
- 35 > 435
(05 Oct 2020, 5:08 pm)L469 YVK I do think that if it does get sold off bit by bit, Ashington depot would fit perfectly within GNE's current strategy. Only trouble would be service number parity for existing and incoming services so this is what I'd suggest:Do you think GNE are in a position to buy Arriva Northumbria?
Current GNE services:
- X15 > X4
- X20 > 20X or X90
- X30 > X2
- X31 > X3
- X32 > X3A
Incoming Arriva services:
- X15 = Same
- X20 = Same
- X21/ X22 > X31/X32 (Paying homage to previous incarnations)
- 35 > 435
(05 Oct 2020, 9:35 pm)Bazza Do you think GNE are in a position to buy Arriva Northumbria?
They have a surplus of buses (and drivers) due to the loss of contracts.
They heavily invested in new buses before the pandemic hit.
They have had to invent a coaching division as they have a surplus of unwanted NatEx coaches that they couldn’t hope to sell at a reasonable price.
As the NatEx network is still not up and running fully those coaches are also lying idle.
As detailed above, They have made less profit than both Arriva and Stagecoach, despite being the bigger operator
(05 Oct 2020, 9:35 pm)Bazza Do you think GNE are in a position to buy Arriva Northumbria?
They have a surplus of buses (and drivers) due to the loss of contracts.
They heavily invested in new buses before the pandemic hit.
They have had to invent a coaching division as they have a surplus of unwanted NatEx coaches that they couldn’t hope to sell at a reasonable price.
As the NatEx network is still not up and running fully those coaches are also lying idle.
As detailed above, They have made less profit than both Arriva and Stagecoach, despite being the bigger operator
(06 Oct 2020, 6:52 am)Dan Is there any evidence of this, or is this just speculation? Isn't this something Go North East has done for several years now, just never formally 'branded'?I’ll happily admit to it being complete speculation.
Due to PSVAR, there's been a huge surge in demand for ex-National Express coaches. It's only until recently that the market has been truly awash with coaches, due to the collapse of National Holidays. Go North East has still managed to sell a fair number of coaches within the last six months.
The irony being that these 'unwanted' coaches probably turn a bigger profit on rail replacement work than they do on National Express work - and, as has been evidenced recently, Go North East has been the major player in the North East bus scene, in terms of providing vehicles and drivers for these rail replacements.
Almost all of Go North East's National Express coaches are in use - nine on National Express work, with the majority of the others being allocated to scholars and/or scholars duplicates (ironically mainly for Arriva North East).
(06 Oct 2020, 6:52 am)Dan Is there any evidence of this, or is this just speculation? Isn't this something Go North East has done for several years now, just never formally 'branded'?I’ll happily admit to it being complete speculation.
Due to PSVAR, there's been a huge surge in demand for ex-National Express coaches. It's only until recently that the market has been truly awash with coaches, due to the collapse of National Holidays. Go North East has still managed to sell a fair number of coaches within the last six months.
The irony being that these 'unwanted' coaches probably turn a bigger profit on rail replacement work than they do on National Express work - and, as has been evidenced recently, Go North East has been the major player in the North East bus scene, in terms of providing vehicles and drivers for these rail replacements.
Almost all of Go North East's National Express coaches are in use - nine on National Express work, with the majority of the others being allocated to scholars and/or scholars duplicates (ironically mainly for Arriva North East).
Just to add to what Bazza has said which I agree with. On the debate front, some of you seem to have an idea that there's not a cat in hell chance that Arriva will be able to sell it's North East depots. Do you really think that GoNorthEast will fly off the market aswell. It has a new fleet at some depots (which for an investor isn't particularly a good thing) and makes the least profit out the 3.
For an investor they want to buy something that has scope for improvement to make a gain in the future which in the case of Arriva is pretty much ideal, it currently makes a 6m profit with some new investment that could increase and if you really want to go there, there's scope for cuts which wouldn't dramatically impact the service (which I'd prefer not ofc). 43 to every 20 minutes for example. Similar story with Stagecoach where you could easily cut some services and there's scope for improvement. X63 to every 20 minutes for example.
GoNorthEast on the other hand doesn't really have much potential for cuts without damaging the services (it's pretty much a skeleton service as it is) and the core routes have new or refurbished buses on so there's no scope for improvement there. From an investors point of view it's not ideal and the newer buses will come with a price so it'll cost more to get it in the first place. 6m profit with potential (but needs investment soon) or 3.4m profit with little potential - only one is much attractive to an investor.
That's before you even bring in the discussion that Percy Main, Deptford, Peterlee and Washington (excluding the 20 and X1) are much weaker depots than any of the Arriva depots in the North East in terms of potential excluding maybe Jesmond.
(01 Oct 2020, 6:29 pm)Storx The thing is though from a normal passenger that's what it looks like. The dangerous game your playing now is oh the bus doesn't run at nights well I'm not using the bus then screw that then the day time service suddenly makes a loss. That small loss you made for running 5 or 6 runs probably doesn't look so bad in the end. Oh and it was a comparison between Arriva and GNE, somehow Arriva can make the 51, 53 and 54 work in the evenings yet GNE can't. Greed or luck, I'll let you decide that one but the 42 and 53 are very similar routes and serve similar areas.
(02 Oct 2020, 11:07 pm)Bazza You’re missing the point. Arriva seem to be an easy target on here. The negativity for them is astounding, only matched by the impression that GNE can do no wrong. I made a couple of points earlier on in this thread and was surprised nobody picked up on them. Either nobody disagreed with what I said or the points that I made were widely off the mark. Which was it?
As to the comments quoted above, where is the evidence that DB are sucking Arriva dry? If it’s your opinion, then say so, or provide the evidence, don’t just make a statement purporting it to be a fact.
(06 Oct 2020, 10:51 am)Bazza I’ll happily admit to it being complete speculation.
My post was more about getting some debate going rather than the usual slagging off of Arriva. You will see it’s more or less the same comment that was made further up the thread. No one bit on that comment, although there are a couple on here who have an opinion on everything. I also note that you managed to get in a dig at Arriva. The fact that at the moment GNE is able to provide these dupes because of an excess of drivers / buses due to a reduction in overall services . What happens when the need for dupes end? The buses maybe sold, what about the jobs?
its interesting to note that you have only replied to the coaching side of my post...
(01 Oct 2020, 6:29 pm)Storx The thing is though from a normal passenger that's what it looks like. The dangerous game your playing now is oh the bus doesn't run at nights well I'm not using the bus then screw that then the day time service suddenly makes a loss. That small loss you made for running 5 or 6 runs probably doesn't look so bad in the end. Oh and it was a comparison between Arriva and GNE, somehow Arriva can make the 51, 53 and 54 work in the evenings yet GNE can't. Greed or luck, I'll let you decide that one but the 42 and 53 are very similar routes and serve similar areas.
(02 Oct 2020, 11:07 pm)Bazza You’re missing the point. Arriva seem to be an easy target on here. The negativity for them is astounding, only matched by the impression that GNE can do no wrong. I made a couple of points earlier on in this thread and was surprised nobody picked up on them. Either nobody disagreed with what I said or the points that I made were widely off the mark. Which was it?
As to the comments quoted above, where is the evidence that DB are sucking Arriva dry? If it’s your opinion, then say so, or provide the evidence, don’t just make a statement purporting it to be a fact.
(06 Oct 2020, 10:51 am)Bazza I’ll happily admit to it being complete speculation.
My post was more about getting some debate going rather than the usual slagging off of Arriva. You will see it’s more or less the same comment that was made further up the thread. No one bit on that comment, although there are a couple on here who have an opinion on everything. I also note that you managed to get in a dig at Arriva. The fact that at the moment GNE is able to provide these dupes because of an excess of drivers / buses due to a reduction in overall services . What happens when the need for dupes end? The buses maybe sold, what about the jobs?
its interesting to note that you have only replied to the coaching side of my post...
Were these intended for any of the north east divisons.
https://www.chartwellbussales.co.uk/buse...hp?bus=217
(24 Oct 2020, 9:57 am)ASX_Terranova Were these intended for any of the north east divisons.Believe they were the final un-delivered batch for the 110 (Arriva Yorkshire)
https://www.chartwellbussales.co.uk/buse...hp?bus=217
(24 Oct 2020, 9:57 am)ASX_Terranova Were these intended for any of the north east divisons.Believe they were the final un-delivered batch for the 110 (Arriva Yorkshire)
https://www.chartwellbussales.co.uk/buse...hp?bus=217
