(08 May 2021, 6:59 am)Rob44 wrote Playing devil's advocate ( and no i don't work for Nexus or GCT) haven't other bus companies in the regions won contacts then got another company to do them? Im thinking metro replacement?

Also, as a tax payer I like to See value for money. No one is excusing not running the route correctly bus as has been mentioned on here, and from first hand experience they are not the only company to do it! Maybe the reason they get so many is the fact that nexus haven't got the cash to pay Arriva. Gne ect 2,3 or4 times what GCT do it for. Maybe the big 3 could run these services commercially if they think GCT are doing a bad job rather then just running when the make megabucks for shareholder/the german transport network

As a taxpayer I also like to see value for money. Sadly I’d say Gateshead Central Taxis being paid to run services that they don’t operate does not represent good value for money.

I have heard their buses now have posters apologising for missing buses and gaps in service, stating they are not liable and it is due to staff and vehicle shortages. That hardly instils confidence in public transport and is quite damaging in the wider context of building back buses better.

Their investment into new buses over the last year or two is commendable, as is the investment into better specification buses (high back seats, USB charging points etc) but sadly constant suggestion that they aren’t running their contracts as they should be means that their investments are often overlooked.


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(08 May 2021, 7:16 am)Dan wrote As a taxpayer I also like to see value for money. Sadly I’d say Gateshead Central Taxis being paid to run services that they don’t operate does not represent good value for money.

I have heard their buses now have posters apologising for missing buses and gaps in service, stating they are not liable and it is due to staff and vehicle shortages. That hardly instils confidence in public transport and is quite damaging in the wider context of building back buses better.

Their investment into new buses over the last year or two is commendable, as is the investment into better specification buses (high back seats, USB charging points etc) but sadly constant suggestion that they aren’t running their contracts as they should be means that their investments are often overlooked.


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Then the big questions is why do nexus give them contacts. There giving more contracts to them and they haven't got the buses or drivers. It's no wonder  L&B are having to run the SNS contract on there behalf. Even the Ferry Replacement contract. God knows why GNE lost that

(08 May 2021, 7:16 am)Dan wrote I have heard their buses now have posters apologising for missing buses and gaps in service, stating they are not liable and it is due to staff and vehicle shortages. 

Even this is ridiculous. Vehicle and staff shortages are directly the fault of the company. Don't apply for contracts which you don't have the assets to operate, and provide a better work environment so your staff stay/new ones join.

I’m all in favour giving the secured contracts to independents rather than the daytime operator, why should the taxpayer pay for the same bus company to operate the evening service etc.. while there operate the daytime service commercially, what happened a few years ago when northern said that there will start operating some secured services commercially again. (probably because there didn’t want another big operator to run them secured) didn’t GNE started to take on some east Durham network commercially as Arriva were one step away of winning the contracts?

I wonder how much incentives and grants did northern get from the government to purchase adl’s and streetdecks


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(08 May 2021, 11:00 am)mb134 wrote Even this is ridiculous. Vehicle and staff shortages are directly the fault of the company. Don't apply for contracts which you don't have the assets to operate, and provide a better work environment so your staff stay/new ones join.

Didn’t Northern win some contracts and contracted them out to independent operators?

There’s to many negatives on here towards GCT, whining about it on this forum isn’t going to solve the problem


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(08 May 2021, 11:03 am)cbma06 wrote I’m all in favour giving the secured contracts to independents rather than the daytime operator, why should the taxpayer pay for the same bus company to operate the evening service etc.. while there operate the daytime service commercially, what happened a few years ago when northern said that there will start operating some secured services commercially again. (probably because there didn’t want another big operator to run them secured) didn’t GNE started to take on some east Durham network commercially as Arriva were one step away of winning the contracts?

I wonder how much incentives and grants did northern get from the government to purchase adl’s and streetdecks

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If the daytime operator offers the best value to the local authority, then why shouldn't they be given the contract to operate the evening/Sunday service, just because they have decided it isn't commercially viable and the local authority has deemed it an essential service?

Go North East paid for their new ADL Enviro400s and Wright StreetDecks commercially. They did not receive any incentives or grants from government.

(08 May 2021, 11:03 am)cbma06 wrote Didn’t Northern win some contracts and contracted them out to independent operators?

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Yes, although this has only really been common over the last twelve months and Go North East was open and honest about why it sub-contracted them out in the press release below:
https://www.gonortheast.co.uk/go-north-e...-operators

It wasn't because the company was unable to run the contract entirely of its own accord, it was to share the extra work with local SME coach operators who were particularly financially impacted as a result of Covid-19.

Prior to this, it was fairly uncommon for Go North East to sub-contract out any extra work such as Metro Replacement.

(08 May 2021, 11:00 am)mb134 wrote Even this is ridiculous. Vehicle and staff shortages are directly the fault of the company. Don't apply for contracts which you don't have the assets to operate, and provide a better work environment so your staff stay/new ones join.

Nexus won't stop giving them contact because they put the bid in. I'd be very very surprised we see GCT metro replacement sometime. Then again that will go to L&B as well

(14 Mar 2021, 5:10 pm)Dan wrote Nexus has invited operators to tender for a number of new contracts, which would commence operation from 16 May 2021.

In all instances, the 'quality' weighting (for better features such as contactless payment methods, USB charging points, Wi-Fi and next stop audio-visual announcements) has been removed, in favour of more weighting towards cost.

These are:

• Service 8 (South Hylton - The Docks): 1 PVR daily (evenings and all day Sunday), Euro 5 vehicle with a minimum capacity of 23 - currently operated by Gateshead Central Taxis.
  
• Service 12 (South Shields - The Lonnen): 1 PVR daily (evenings only), Euro 5 vehicle with a minimum capacity of 23 - currently operated by Stagecoach North East.
  
• Service 79 (Hall Lane - Barnwell): 1 PVR Mon-Sat, Euro 5 vehicle with a minimum capacity of 36 - currently operated by JH Coaches.
  
• Service 79/79A (Barnwell - Easington Lane): 2 PVR (Mon-Sat evenings and all day Sunday), Euro 5 vehicle with a minimum capacity of 23 - currently operated by Go North East.
  
• Services 93/94 and 97 (Gateshead services): 4 PVR (Early morning and late evening journeys), Euro 5 vehicle with a minimum capacity of 36 - currently operated by Go North East.
  
• Services 135/136 (Downhill/Hylton Circular): 3 PVR (Early morning journeys), Euro 5 vehicle with a minimum capacity of 23 - currently operated by Go North East.
  
• Service 592 (Roker - Doxford International): 1 PVR weekdays only, Euro 5 vehicle with a minimum capacity of 23 - currently operated by Gateshead Central Taxis.
  
• Service 593 (Pallion - Doxford International): 1 PVR weekdays only, Euro 5 vehicle with a minimum capacity of 23 - currently operated by Gateshead Central Taxis.
  

There has been lots of discussion on this forum recently regarding the development of bus networks, and what operators do to improve patronage and drive growth on their bus services. There has been a lot of suggestion that the use of better on-board features such as free Wi-Fi, USB charging points and contactless payments help drive growth, whilst next stop announcements improve accessibility. There has also been some suggestions that this isn't enough, and operators should be looking to improve their networks by providing better services which are more catered towards the current market.

It's quite disappointing to see that in this latest batch of tenders, neither of those are deemed important enough (with the same timetables from last year being used again, and the removal of incentive for operators to provide a better quality service).

So I take it, apart from the 79 and 79A going to Gateshead Central Taxi's, that the other services are remaining the same?

(08 May 2021, 7:33 am)Micheal Aaron wrote Then the big questions is why do nexus give them contacts. There giving more contracts to them and they haven't got the buses or drivers. It's no wonder  L&B are having to run the SNS contract on there behalf. Even the Ferry Replacement contract. God knows why GNE lost that

The simple answer is money isn't it?  Public purse is empty, LAs (who fund Nexus) are skint, so they are going for cheapest which inevitably will mean a bit of a race to the bottom.  Under procurement law Nexus will have to go by what is in the tenders and if GCT say they can do it for X price, and demonstrte sufficently how that will be done, they would have to award based on scoring of bids.  If GCT know they can still make money by winning contract and then subcontracting; and assuming the contracts allow for subcontracting, arguably what is wrong with this approach?  The bigger question is, if all of this happens and the operator then fails to deliver, why are they not performance managing the contract, issuing penalties etc - if indeed they are not.  The points about general risk of putting all of your tendered eggs in one basket are surely something nexus ought to be considering though...wonder what their contingency plans are if GCT go bust etc.

In terms of the criticism of GCT as an operator and their fleet, to the avergae punter, is the accessible bus provided by GCT really that much different to the easy access bus provided by another operator?  I read comments somewhere about GCT buses being an embarrassment and held together by duct tape, yet there's at least one of GNEs Streetlites with tape all over the front of it in frontline service, and least said about the state of some of Arriva's fleet the better.

i get the feeling the some people on here would like NECUS to bot allow GCT to run any route. I am sure they wont be happy if that happens and ANE, GNE Stagecoach start running them at a much higher price meaning some services have to go and taxes go up ( for those who pay it! ) There is no magical money tree as someone once said!

(09 May 2021, 6:42 am)Rob44 wrote i get the feeling the some people on here would like NECUS to bot allow GCT to run any route. I am sure they wont be happy if that happens and ANE, GNE Stagecoach start running them at a much higher price meaning some services have to go and taxes go up ( for those who pay it! ) There is no magical money tree as someone once said!

A cynic would suggest that Gateshead Central Taxis can offer such low prices because they do not run the contracts as they should. False economy for the winning bid to be cheaper, if it comes at the expense of the contract not running as it was tendered.

I think what most people want is for Gateshead Central Taxis to operate the contracts as Nexus have tendered them - ie, no repeated missing journeys on the same contracts, time and time again - and for action to be taken if this does happen (which we know it does). I suspect as enthusiasts we don’t really care who runs the contract as long as it does actually run.


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(09 May 2021, 6:57 am)Dan wrote A cynic would suggest that Gateshead Central Taxis can offer such low prices because they do not run the contracts as they should. False economy for the winning bid to be cheaper, if it comes at the expense of the contract not running as it was tendered.

I think what most people want is for Gateshead Central Taxis to operate the contracts as Nexus have tendered them - ie, no repeated missing journeys on the same contracts, time and time again - and for action to be taken if this does happen (which we know it does). I suspect as enthusiasts we don’t really care who runs the contract as long as it does actually run. 


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Looking at the comments and rhetoric on here towards GCT over the years versus that of the operators who can do no wrong - I think you're barking up the wrong tree with that one.

(09 May 2021, 8:45 am)Andreos1 wrote Looking at the comments and rhetoric on here towards GCT over the years versus that of the operators who can do no wrong - I think you're barking up the wrong tree with that one.

My question to you, if that’s what you believe, is why other independent operators such as JH Coaches and Stanley Travel don’t receive anywhere near as much criticism as Gateshead Central Taxis. They have been awarded contracts previously ran by ‘operators who can do no wrong’.

Surely the difference is the perception that Gateshead Central Taxis don’t fulfil their contractual obligations..?


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I think people just want GCT to do better

(09 May 2021, 11:04 am)Micheal Aaron wrote I think people just want GCT to do better

I think a lot of people want GCT to fold and have no contracts at all and have GNE to do all the contracts in the north east


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I think its more to do with the quality rather than anything else

(09 May 2021, 10:42 am)Dan wrote My question to you, if that’s what you believe, is why other independent operators such as JH Coaches and Stanley Travel don’t receive anywhere near as much criticism as Gateshead Central Taxis. They have been awarded contracts previously ran by ‘operators who can do no wrong’. 

Surely the difference is the perception that Gateshead Central Taxis don’t fulfil their contractual obligations..?


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I'm the wrong person to ask on that one.
You need to be asking the people who post about them regularly. 

Purely based on the comments seen previously, people seem to have issues with vehicles types, the on-board equipment (or lack of) or lack of integrated ticketing. 
In addition to boards not running. 

We all know that GCT aren't unique in not being able to fulfil contracts 100% of the time. We've seen commercial operators failing to fulfil some of their commercial work too. 

We also know we wouldn't be having this conversation if some of the larger operators didn't go home early on an evening and ran these routes on an evening and Sunday.

(09 May 2021, 6:57 am)Dan wrote A cynic would suggest that Gateshead Central Taxis can offer such low prices because they do not run the contracts as they should. False economy for the winning bid to be cheaper, if it comes at the expense of the contract not running as it was tendered.

I think what most people want is for Gateshead Central Taxis to operate the contracts as Nexus have tendered them - ie, no repeated missing journeys on the same contracts, time and time again - and for action to be taken if this does happen (which we know it does). I suspect as enthusiasts we don’t really care who runs the contract as long as it does actually run.


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I'm an equal opportunity complainer, if I have an issue with GNE I'll be sure to bring it up. Equally, if GCT did their job and ran the buses properly, I wouldn't have anything to complain about.
Similarly, as much as I love a good whinge about the state of Arriva's fleet (and some of their drivers), you won't hear me complaining about their services.

I just think gct are growing bigger and taken over contract that people use quite a bit and get annoyed when that service is A late and b have buses missing or the service doesn't run at all

(09 May 2021, 12:04 pm)Andreos1 wrote We all know that GCT aren't unique in not being able to fulfil contracts 100% of the time. We've seen commercial operators failing to fulfil some of their commercial work too.

I suppose the difference between Gateshead Central Taxis and commercial operators, is that it's easier for customers to identify when commercial operators don't fulfil their contracts and/or commercial work, as they offer live tracking on mobile apps, and have social media pages where service updates are added during times of service disruption. For their commercial work, services are much more frequent than contracts, which run far less often and could cause more inconvenience to intending passengers if they do not operate (on-time or at all).

Of course, if Gateshead Central Taxis had fulfilled their BODS requirements on-time, this possibly wouldn't be the case...

Let’s be honest here, nobody outside this group cares about the missed mileage, vehicle presentation or awful on board musical choices.

And why? Because these are barely used tendered routes used by low socio economic folk and of no economic value to anyone. They could complain but the routes are a nuisance, they don’t generate enough profit and in honesty the users are less likely to vocalise their complain.

It’s not right but it’s a sad truth.

(09 May 2021, 2:43 pm)Ambassador wrote Let’s be honest here, nobody outside this group cares about the missed mileage, vehicle presentation or awful on board musical choices.

And why? Because these are barely used tendered routes used by low socio economic folk and of no economic value to anyone. They could complain but the routes are a nuisance, they don’t generate enough profit and in honesty the users are less likely to vocalise their complain.

It’s not right but it’s a sad truth.

Vehicle presentation and maybe musical choice I probably agree with you on, but I'd suggest that those waiting for the said bus would care about missed mileage. 

Under 'Bus back better', Local Authorities and PTEs have a key role to play in increasing patronage on buses. Poorly presented buses, I would suggest, does not encourage prolonged usage of the bus or for new customers to try the bus. Those travelling will be doing so out of necessity.

Some operators are trying extremely hard to improve the presentation of buses and to make them more appealing. Others are doing nothing.

(09 May 2021, 2:43 pm)Ambassador wrote Let’s be honest here, nobody outside this group cares about the missed mileage, vehicle presentation or awful on board musical choices.

And why? Because these are barely used tendered routes used by low socio economic folk and of no economic value to anyone. They could complain but the routes are a nuisance, they don’t generate enough profit and in honesty the users are less likely to vocalise their complain.

It’s not right but it’s a sad truth.

I'd argue those routes are just as important, if not more so than just about any commercial route, and having access to a reliable bus service is probably even more important for those 'low socio economic folk'. If my bus doesn't turn up and I need to be somewhere, I can easily afford to just get a taxi, or call someone for a lift. If that happens to somebody who doesn't have a lot of money, and doesn't have someone who can give them a lift at the drop of a hat, then they're up a creek!

What if the place they needed to get to was a hospital appointment, or even a job interview which would potentially allow them to afford to live somewhere better. Their entire existence basically depends on a lazy GCT driver not thinking "fuck it, they're just poor people, I need to get back early for me tea so I'll just miss out that estate"

Having said that, I was in some iffy looking estate Darlington yesterday picking something up from Marketplace, and I'd happily let the people I saw be cut off from the rest of us!

(09 May 2021, 2:43 pm)Ambassador wrote Let’s be honest here, nobody outside this group cares about the missed mileage, vehicle presentation or awful on board musical choices.

And why? Because these are barely used tendered routes used by low socio economic folk and of no economic value to anyone. They could complain but the routes are a nuisance, they don’t generate enough profit and in honesty the users are less likely to vocalise their complain.

It’s not right but it’s a sad truth.

I don't really want to turn this into a politics thread but the subsidised services are more the opposite way imo and tend to serve more affluent areas rather than the poor areas (especially North of the Tyne). The W1/W2/W3/59/359/11/19/42/42A/S1/S2(Morpeth)/6/74/33/33A/553/K1/K2/M71/T2 all serve pretty much affluent areas throughout the whole of their routes.

I'd say the reason people don't complain is because they're empty as all the places they serve all have very high car usage or are using the Metro instead. There's only really the 41, T1, T3 and 335 which serve those type of places and even then the 335 serves some better areas on the Western side of the route.

Sorry folks, I wasn’t clear. I agree these services are critical to those communities they serve but politically for Nexus or local councils, there is no political benefit at all to fight for them and that’s the game in play here and that’s why we are in the place we are with them.

I can’t see Bus Back Better being anything than a few key marginals or Tory controlled areas getting a wee boost or Low Fell getting a shiny new bus lane to please the chattering classes.

Call me an Andreas level of cynicism but hey ho!

My mam has used GCT in the last few weeks (described as "are they the grey and red buses?"). She works at the Pharmacy at NT Hospital, and normally she gets the first bus (308/309/335) from there to either Cobalt or Willington Square then catch the 22 down. On the one occasion GCT arrived first with the 335 so she caught it to Cobalt, she complained to me that they are complete rip offs (although using more colourful language) charging £2.30 for the trip from NT Hospital to Cobalt where as it's only £1.70 on GNE. So she said she's sticking to waiting for the 309 to Cobalt instead. BTW my mam is an infrequent bus user and only uses the bus if she's unable to get a lift to / from work or if she's off to Toon, she isn't bothered about all the bells and whistles of wi-fi etc, she just wants to get there.

(09 May 2021, 7:41 pm)Ambassador wrote Sorry folks, I wasn’t clear. I agree these services are critical to those communities they serve but politically for Nexus or local councils, there is no political benefit at all to fight for them and that’s the game in play here and that’s why we are in the place we are with them.

I can’t see Bus Back Better being anything than a few key marginals or Tory controlled areas getting a wee boost or Low Fell getting a shiny new bus lane to please the chattering classes.

Call me an Andreas level of cynicism but hey ho! 

I prefer using the terms disdain and scepticism.

Out of curiosity - are there mechanisms in place to stop a hypothetical operator bidding unsustainably low to win a contract and claiming the shortfall through Coronavirus Bus Service Support Grant?

I have only used GCT once on the 319 from Jarrow to North Shields. Journey time was minimal and I used my staff pass so couldn't mention about fares. However, as a driver for one of the big groups and one who spent quite alot of time driving tendered services (before and during Covid) I would like to make the following points:

Fares are I believe set by Nexus - an example being the 33/33A (as they were) around the docks to the City Centre in Sunderland. Fares on the 33/33A were different from the evening and Sunday service 8 when GNE operated it. 

Wifi/Next Stop and all the bells and whistles that many take for granted, don't get me wrong they are nice however Stagecoach don't have Wifi/have recently turned it off to save money and nor do they do next stop announcements. Whilst it would improve the passenger experience and benefit many groups, those that use tendered services (again from my experience) are mainly free pass holders (elderly and simply don't use the wifi etc) and many are short hops of a few stops. 

As I have stated elsewhere, I have driven the 79A on many occasions with passenger numbers able to be counted on one hand and sometimes zero passengers. Maybe it would be worth looking at why passenger numbers aren't there (alternative services e.g. Easington Lane to Hetton or Houghton on the X1) or just simply no demand.

It would be nice to see some other independents or even the big boys operate more Nexus services but like everything it's all about cost and Nexus will want value for money for public money and if GCT are in best place to offer that then so be it. 

Worth noting (I feel anyway) GCT seem to have fairly new buses regardless of size and type and for the main they seem to be suited to the routes they do. For quite a lot of passengers (particularly when your bus breaks down) seem to mention the age of a vehicle and how old it is. So whilst all the creature comforts we have come to expect may be missing, its still a new bus (as passengers seem to believe new buses don't breakdown).

(09 May 2021, 1:40 pm)Dan wrote I suppose the difference between Gateshead Central Taxis and commercial operators, is that it's easier for customers to identify when commercial operators don't fulfil their contracts and/or commercial work, as they offer live tracking on mobile apps, and have social media pages where service updates are added during times of service disruption. For their commercial work, services are much more frequent than contracts, which run far less often and could cause more inconvenience to intending passengers if they do not operate (on-time or at all).

Of course, if Gateshead Central Taxis had fulfilled their BODS requirements on-time, this possibly wouldn't be the case...

Sorry, I thought I replied to this at the time. Just realised I hadn't. 

You make some interesting points and I agree with what you have said. Like most things, there are exceptions and you're making assumptions that passengers are able to and/or can access the social media pages or apps.

For a number of years, I've made comments on how some people are unable to access this information for various reasons.
The idea of free broadband for all at the last general election was mocked (probably by those who can afford it), yet broadband and internet poverty still continues. Regardless of any other barriers that exist. 

I've not long seen a post that the vehicle allocated to the 28 broke down and the 18.17 ex Birtley to Newcastle wasn't running.
You know the frequency of that service and you know the market it operates and you can imagine poor Betty who is off to visit her husband at the QE is standing there in the wind and rain, waiting for the bus. 
She's got no access to social media. She doesn't have a smartphone and can barely operate the little old Nokia she does have.

What makes the operator of the 28 stand out above the operator of the 23?
All Betty wants is a bus to turn up - whether it takes her to the shops or to see her husband in hospital. She just wants it to turn up.

The 18.50 ex Newcastle 28 also didn't operate.
It's the only bus that will get Nigel home after a 12 hour shift at the RVI.
Nigel has a smartphone and can access social media too.
Whilst it may reassure him the 19.50 28 might rock up, neither of those things will get him home any quicker.

Your comments have made me wonder why bus companies dont operate an SMS service,like what taxis do,where you recieve a text confirming if your taxi is on the way,imo it would be useful,especially if you dont use social media,or have a disabilty etc