(25 Jan 2022, 11:32 pm)Storx wrote In fairness to the Q3 it could be for competition reasons aswell. Apart from St Peter's Basin, the rest of the route is pretty much covered by the 12, 22, 39 and 40.

If the rumours are true about the 11, 19, 41 and 42/42A then GNE should leave North Tyneside altogether. Their routes just create unnecessary competition with Arriva along the Coast Road with the Arriva services changed to serve the areas missed and then unnecessary competition with Stagecoach through Wallsend with the 1 which could easily be a variant of the 22. Other than that they offer nothing literally. At the end of the day isn't this what the point of BSIP is? or is it just when it's not profitable.

I'm sure someone will come along to tell me they have a good footing through Battle Hill because they live there soon though.

Would you include the Coast Road services?  Would you advocate the closing of Percy Main?

(25 Jan 2022, 10:54 pm)OrangeArrow49 wrote https://www.facebook.com/100009920923911...978772612/

Good but interesting update. The funding situation is a mess at the moment, so big changes are going to sadly be inevitable unless the Government stick their hand in their pocket.

The £7.5m reduction in ENCTS budget by Nexus; this was discussed at the JTC in November, and as I understood, it's due to the calculation moving from estimates at pre-Covid levels rather than actuals. That was retained by Nexus throughout 2020/21 and 2021/22 financial years, in-line with Government policy. Nexus estimated in November that ENCTS use was around 60% of pre-pandemic levels (across the county - not just GNE). They claimed at the JTC that this resulted in an estimated £40 million over-payment to operators during the two financial years.

The knock on impact if that hadn't happened would have likely been a complete decimation of services I'd imagine, but its good to consider these things with the context.

Even with reducing this though, Nexus are still very much in the shit financially and it won't be long before they move to the last resort of increasing the levy in Tyne and Wear and asking for more cash from Durham and Northumberland. Very much like Nexus, cash none of the Councils have, after 12 years of austerity. They're using around £5.5m of reserves to balance the budget this year, which never a good place to be in.

There'll be the usual finger-wagging that Nexus are cutting bus support to bail out the Metro, but we shouldn't forget that the support for Light Rail is facing the same April cliff-edge as the Bus Recovery Grant.

There's an enormous funding gap right across public transport at the minute. There's an estimated £5bn funding gap in what's required to deliver the National Bus Strategy. After the Govt told everyone to go away and draw up ambitious Bus Service Improvement Plans and form Enhanced Partnerships, they've gradually cut the £3bn on offer to £2bn, then again to £1.4bn.

I've said before and I'll say again, but I really think the idea of a BSIP or Enhanced Partnership up here is all but abandoned, and really to no fault of the operators or local authorities. That's evident in the changes suggested in Martijn's video and what we've already seen elsewhere in the GNE network, before we even get on to other operators making cuts.

Unless the Govt make the funding available, we'll be lucky to get a fleet of model buses out of a BSIP, never mind a Superbus network.

(25 Jan 2022, 11:40 pm)Bazza wrote Would you include the Coast Road services?  Would you advocate the closing of Percy Main?

Yeah to be honest, I know I shouldn't really be saying it though.

There's way too many buses along there lately. Ideally there needs to be 4 services along there.

The 306, the 308, the 309 to Cobalt only (maybe could extend to Northumberland Park to replace the 19) then the 310 (serving Hadrian Park). There's way too many buses atm and a lot of them are quiet off peak (some peak heading towards town). The 54 could easily be diverted into Cobalt at the peaks again to restore the Whitley links lost.

Then the 1 is just duplicating the 22 for most of the route and the Whitley end is just sticking out like a sore thumb without the other services.

(25 Jan 2022, 11:32 pm)Storx wrote In fairness to the Q3 it could be for competition reasons aswell. Apart from St Peter's Basin, the rest of the route is pretty much covered by the 12, 22, 39 and 40.

If the rumours are true about the 11, 19, 41 and 42/42A then GNE should leave North Tyneside altogether. Their routes just create unnecessary competition with Arriva along the Coast Road with the Arriva services changed to serve the areas missed and then unnecessary competition with Stagecoach through Wallsend with the 1 which could easily be a variant of the 22. Other than that they offer nothing literally. At the end of the day isn't this what the point of BSIP is? or is it just when it's not profitable.

I'm sure someone will come along to tell me they have a good footing through Battle Hill because they live there soon though.

I think even if some of the services listed survive, it will be a shadow of their current form with or without funding.

I'm not too knowledgeable on the routes up there although I came to much the same conclusion with the GNE 1 & SNE 22 effectively duping one another from Newcastle to Wallsend.

The 19 you could probs cut to run Northumberland Park to North Shields only as pretty much the whole route is covered by other services although maybe not direct connections and journeys currently offered in places.

Isn't the Kingston Park / Airport Dinnington end of the 42A supported already? Unsure if any other part is, perhaps extend the Arriva 44/45?

Will just have to see what happens at the end of the day really...

(26 Jan 2022, 12:07 am)Jimmi wrote I think even if some of the services listed survive, it will be a shadow of their current form with or without funding.

I'm not too knowledgeable on the routes up there although I came to much the same conclusion with the GNE 1 & SNE 22 effectively duping one another from Newcastle to Wallsend.

The 19 you could probs cut to run Northumberland Park to North Shields only as pretty much the whole route is covered by other services although maybe not direct connections and journeys currently offered in places.

Isn't the Kingston Park / Airport Dinnington end of the 42A supported already? Unsure if any other part is, perhaps extend the Arriva 44/45?

Will just have to see what happens at the end of the day really...

Yeah the 42A is already supported it used to be the old 335 and a old horde of services before then.  The 19 is also subsidised North of Northumberland Park aswell by NCC. I'm not sure it will really be missed though duplicating the 57 pretty much the whole route so can't really complain about it (it's local to me and I'd rather have the 57/57A in place).

From a local level though, I'd love to see the 57/57A merged with the 11 going to Wallsend (or at least North Shields). I know locally the pensioners would love a link back to North Tyneside Hospital. The 57 North of Cramlington could then possibly be merged with the 42A heading via the new A&E hospital giving SE Northumberland a link to the airport if they fancied busing it and Dinnington, Wide Open etc a direct link to the new A&E (don't expect many too though tbf but it's useful nevertheless - it's an odd bus route regardless tbh).

Yeah true we'll just have to see what happens though.

(25 Jan 2022, 11:51 pm)Adrian wrote Good but interesting update. The funding situation is a mess at the moment, so big changes are going to sadly be inevitable unless the Government stick their hand in their pocket.

The £7.5m reduction in ENCTS budget by Nexus; this was discussed at the JTC in November, and as I understood, it's due to the calculation moving from estimates at pre-Covid levels rather than actuals. That was retained by Nexus throughout 2020/21 and 2021/22 financial years, in-line with Government policy. Nexus estimated in November that ENCTS use was around 60% of pre-pandemic levels (across the county - not just GNE). They claimed at the JTC that this resulted in an estimated £40 million over-payment to operators during the two financial years.

The knock on impact if that hadn't happened would have likely been a complete decimation of services I'd imagine, but its good to consider these things with the context.

Even with reducing this though, Nexus are still very much in the shit financially and it won't be long before they move to the last resort of increasing the levy in Tyne and Wear and asking for more cash from Durham and Northumberland. Very much like Nexus, cash none of the Councils have, after 12 years of austerity. They're using around £5.5m of reserves to balance the budget this year, which never a good place to be in.

There'll be the usual finger-wagging that Nexus are cutting bus support to bail out the Metro, but we shouldn't forget that the support for Light Rail is facing the same April cliff-edge as the Bus Recovery Grant.

There's an enormous funding gap right across public transport at the minute. There's an estimated £5bn funding gap in what's required to deliver the National Bus Strategy. After the Govt told everyone to go away and draw up ambitious Bus Service Improvement Plans and form Enhanced Partnerships, they've gradually cut the £3bn on offer to £2bn, then again to £1.4bn.

I've said before and I'll say again, but I really think the idea of a BSIP or Enhanced Partnership up here is all but abandoned, and really to no fault of the operators or local authorities. That's evident in the changes suggested in Martijn's video and what we've already seen elsewhere in the GNE network, before we even get on to other operators making cuts.

Unless the Govt make the funding available, we'll be lucky to get a fleet of model buses out of a BSIP, never mind a Superbus network.

The whole thing is a mess and has been from the start, as soon as it became clear that Covid wasn’t a short term issue, transport funding and routes should have been slashed to bare essentials (and protected in reserve) during the initial lockdown and the following period. Instead we paid companies to carry around fresh air. Now, as we get to a potential recovery, we cut the funding and stunt any potential natural re growth of passenger numbers. 

we keep being told ECNTS are the slowest to return, backed up by data from Wetherspoons (of all places) and springboard so in theory the cuts in funding shouldn’t have an immediate impact…in practice they obviously do.

It’s difficult for GNE because nothing they do really works or seems committed to past a short term vision and with an absolute basket case of a parent company, you can see why the pressure is on. 

all that money on paint as they say   Damned either way. Now…where’s my Uber/car keys/electric bike/cab?

(25 Jan 2022, 11:32 pm)Storx wrote In fairness to the Q3 it could be for competition reasons aswell. Apart from St Peter's Basin, the rest of the route is pretty much covered by the 12, 22, 39 and 40.

If the rumours are true about the 11, 19, 41 and 42/42A then GNE should leave North Tyneside altogether. Their routes just create unnecessary competition with Arriva along the Coast Road with the Arriva services changed to serve the areas missed and then unnecessary competition with Stagecoach through Wallsend with the 1 which could easily be a variant of the 22. Other than that they offer nothing literally. At the end of the day isn't this what the point of BSIP is? or is it just when it's not profitable.

I'm sure someone will come along to tell me they have a good footing through Battle Hill because they live there soon though.

Q3 withdrawn from the NT section will leave Westbourne Avenue without a bus service for the first time in living memory I believe, From the Middle of Westbourne Avenue its a good 10-15minute walk to either end of the street to catch another Stagecoach. bus (39,40,22)

Service 18 was curtailed to Walker when the Q3 was extended, potentially extend it back to Wallsend.

(25 Jan 2022, 10:55 pm)AnonPM1 wrote They want to cut the 11, 42/42a and 19 completely/. The 41 will go from Hadrian Park to Wallsend only via Wiltshire Drive.

The Q3 will also only go as far as St. Peters all day and go via osborne road

Its likely they are cutting those services so that Nexus have to put a tender out for them that GNE can then bid on, as i believe Martijn said in the update. because although the reasoning for them being cut is that they lose money operating them there is still alot of demand for them in the day.

If true that must be around 15 PVR being cut - many of them could be retained of course if GNE win the Nexus tenders.

(26 Jan 2022, 8:24 am)Arcticrossy92 wrote Q3 withdrawn from the NT section will leave Westbourne Avenue without a bus service for the first time in living memory I believe, From the Middle of Westbourne Avenue its a good 10-15minute walk to either end of the street to catch another Stagecoach. bus (39,40,22)

Service 18 was curtailed to Walker when the Q3 was extended, potentially extend it back to Wallsend.

Doesn't it have the 32/32A along there which I'm assuming is going to be one of the Stagecoach routes being withdrawn hence the questionnaire about the 33 doing a weird through Shieldfield. The other no doubt the 18.

Well I've just got access to the tenders through work and they're interesting in parts. Can't really say much more though. Nothing really unexpected though and no-one will be left stranded without a bus service at all including some new routes altogether especially involving the 359.

(26 Jan 2022, 9:46 am)Storx wrote Well I've just got access to the tenders through work and they're interesting in parts. Can't really say much more though. Nothing really unexpected though and no-one will be left stranded without a bus service at all including some new routes altogether especially involving the 359.

Assume this will be the 351 that's been suggested through consultation? https://www.nexus.org.uk/consultation/it...ed-new-351

(26 Jan 2022, 10:22 am)peter wrote Assume this will be the 351 that's been suggested through consultation? https://www.nexus.org.uk/consultation/it...ed-new-351

Nah there's no 351. I'm not sure what the point of the consultation was because from what I can see they've ignored pretty much everything.

(26 Jan 2022, 10:33 am)Storx wrote Nah there's no 351. I'm not sure what the point of the consultation was because from what I can see they've ignored pretty much everything.

I suspect that's because the commercial intentions of the bus companies weren't known at the time they did the consultation - what has been posted elsewhere on here suggests that Nexus are going to have to secure a wide range of additional bus services (presumably at inflated costs due to the driver shortage and subsequent lack of operators who will be submitting tenders).

(26 Jan 2022, 10:39 am)busmanT wrote I suspect that's because the commercial intentions of the bus companies weren't known at the time they did the consultation - what has been posted elsewhere on here suggests that Nexus are going to have to secure a wide range of additional bus services (presumably at inflated costs due to the driver shortage and subsequent lack of operators who will be submitting tenders).

Honestly, I'm not sure it is. The tenders out now are much better than what was being proposed imo. They've removed most of the short useless routes from allover pretty much now and replaced them with longer connected services creating links that people actually want.

I slag Nexus off a lot but the changes (excluding their subsidised) are mostly positive really. It seems like they've actually tried to make routes that people actually want to use rather than routes because of they've 'always been there'.

(26 Jan 2022, 11:05 am)Storx wrote Honestly, I'm not sure it is. The tenders out now are much better than what was being proposed imo. They've removed most of the short useless routes from allover pretty much now and replaced them with longer connected services creating links that people actually want.

I slag Nexus off a lot but the changes (excluding their subsidised) are mostly positive really. It seems like they've actually tried to make routes that people actually want to use rather than routes because of they've 'always been there'.

Sounds positive, thanks for sharing.

Off the top of my head, I'm guessing the following could be merged:

335 and 42/42A - as the 41 is replacing the 42/42A around Wilshire Drive, I'm guessing hourly to Wallsend would be sufficient. So Have the 42 operating it's current route (excluding Wilshire Drive), and the 42A operating current route to Benton Asda, then current 335 route to North Shields. Possibly extend the 42 to Howdon to replace the 41/41A.

333 and 11 could be merged as per the evening/Sunday plans at the previous consultation. Could replace 41/41A around Howdon instead of the 42.

19 and 359 could be merged, extending to Backworth, then continuing to Seaton Deleval to continue current route, which I'm guessing will be staying as it's funded by NCC. Not sure if there is any need for for the Cramlington-Ashington, or even the Silverlink-North Shields section however. Could just be Silverlink or Percy Main to Cramlington in reality as the 11 covers the Percy Main to North Shields section well enough. 

I'm sure the Whitley Bay local routes could be rationalised too. Possibly incorporate them into the 11 or 57/57A.

(26 Jan 2022, 11:54 am)Thomas12 wrote Sounds positive, thanks for sharing.

Off the top of my head, I'm guessing the following could be merged:

335 and 42/42A - as the 41 is replacing the 42/42A around Wilshire Drive, I'm guessing hourly to Wallsend would be sufficient. So Have the 42 operating it's current route (excluding Wilshire Drive), and the 42A operating current route to Benton Asda, then current 335 route to North Shields. Possibly extend the 42 to Howdon to replace the 41/41A.

333 and 11 could be merged as per the evening/Sunday plans at the previous consultation. Could replace 41/41A around Howdon instead of the 42.

19 and 359 could be merged, extending to Backworth, then continuing to Seaton Deleval to continue current route, which I'm guessing will be staying as it's funded by NCC. Not sure if there is any need for for the Cramlington-Ashington, or even the Silverlink-North Shields section however. Could just be Silverlink or Percy Main to Cramlington in reality as the 11 covers the Percy Main to North Shields section well enough. 

I'm sure the Whitley Bay local routes could be rationalised too. Possibly incorporate them into the 11 or 57/57A.

No worries, one of them is pretty much nailed on.

Battlehill does have a good pick up usage however getting rid of 41 and 41A through Battlehill or removing the service altogether would be criminal as that is the only link to Wallsend even if the evening services are currently contracted as a secure service and often fails to operate the service.

A few older residents need this service for access to Wallsend, the service allows staff to go to work at the many care homes dotted around the route.

You also have to think in 2022 there is a new urgent care centre being opened in Wallsend and this current service provides a major link from Hadrian Park Battlehill High Farm.

There current 553 although goes to Battlehill doesn't actually operate past Lidl and the shops a quick drive past the shops to the Buzz Bingo and back and battlehill drive could create more passengers for a nexus secured contract wether its for Bingo, B and Q Smyths toy shop before heading back along Battlehill you then create a link to Wallsend.

It also means you can get off say the 306 309 310 311 and not move bus stops to get a link to Freeman Hospital etc . . .

(25 Jan 2022, 9:35 pm)Dan wrote Go North East were in the worst position financially pre-pandemic. Post-pandemic, without CBSSG, only Stagecoach are making a profit in the North East (and a small one at that). It’s not surprising that Go North East is therefore making the biggest cuts. I think Arriva have made some fairly big cuts across the network too, but seem to ‘get away with it’ for want of a better phrase.

The cuts from other operators will come, you are correct. I have just posted earlier this evening that Nexus tenders in North Tyneside and Newcastle include services which are currently operated by Stagecoach commercially, that they intend to withdraw.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The question is why?

What was GNE doing wrong?  Does it show that all the gimmicks (Branded routes, constant rebranding,  fares, special routes, hi spec buses etc etc) made no positive difference whatsoever to the bottom line of the balance sheet? Perhaps even had the opposite effects due to the extra costs incurred.

(25 Jan 2022, 11:40 pm)Bazza wrote Would you include the Coast Road services?  Would you advocate the closing of Percy Main?

I think these are the sort of things that need thinking about for the future stability of the network as a whole.  The Coast Road services and the 1 could be operated elsewhere without too much upheaval - and the level of Coast Road service is another question I feel - and the rump is an ever receding collection of mini bus services.

It doesn't make sense to me to have Arriva operating a collection of mini bus services from one location, GNE operating a collection of mini bus services from a different location and then a third party coming in on an evening and taking over large parts of it.  Rather than continually shuffling the deck, surely it makes more sense to consolidate all of the North Tyneside mini bus services (under whatever guise), and run them from one place to compliment and link places where the Metro doesn't reach.

(26 Jan 2022, 2:26 pm)Bazza wrote The question is why?

What was GNE doing wrong?  Does it show that all the gimmicks (Branded routes, constant rebranding,  fares, special routes, hi spec buses etc etc) made no positive difference whatsoever to the bottom line of the balance sheet? Perhaps even had the opposite effects due to the extra costs incurred.

I think that's a question beyond anyone's ability on this forum to answer.

We can discuss and debate the possible reasons why, but we'll never know. Andreos regularly gives his thoughts on this subject - perhaps he's right, maybe he's wrong and it's other things at play.

(26 Jan 2022, 11:05 am)Storx wrote Honestly, I'm not sure it is. The tenders out now are much better than what was being proposed imo. They've removed most of the short useless routes from allover pretty much now and replaced them with longer connected services creating links that people actually want.

I slag Nexus off a lot but the changes (excluding their subsidised) are mostly positive really. It seems like they've actually tried to make routes that people actually want to use rather than routes because of they've 'always been there'.

Is their still going to be a bus at Kingston Park like the 42A? , and is the Q3 getting curtailed at St Peters?

All of the services I use are getting destroyed - 42A, Q3, X84/X85. Hopefully the 74 survives.

Interested to see what the new fares will be, and hopefully they are still good. 

Might be Arriva for me in the future for North Tyneside, GNE for Gateshead and Durham.

(26 Jan 2022, 2:32 pm)Dan wrote I think that's a question beyond anyone's ability on this forum to answer.

We can discuss and debate the possible reasons why, but we'll never know. Andreos regularly gives his thoughts on this subject - perhaps he's right, maybe he's wrong and it's other things at play.

Is that not the point of a forum?

(26 Jan 2022, 2:26 pm)Bazza wrote The question is why?

What was GNE doing wrong?  Does it show that all the gimmicks (Branded routes, constant rebranding,  fares, special routes, hi spec buses etc etc) made no positive difference whatsoever to the bottom line of the balance sheet? Perhaps even had the opposite effects due to the extra costs incurred.

Probably more to do with the routes imo. Arriva and Stagecoach have some very strong corridors (X10/X11/X21/X22/X15/X18/306/308/6/7/63/64/X93/1: Arriva), (1/39/40/62/63 and so on: SNE). Apart from the 20, 21, 56, 60 and X1. There's nothing that really stands out in terms of making a fortune. On the otherhand they have some very weak routes, (82/83/11/42/42A/5/26/28/29/Peterlee locals).

Not sure there's much you could really do with some of the routes realistically as there's just not the demand and over the years they've butchered the network to a level where there's literally nothing left to butcher.

It doesn't help there's the Metro / Arriva and SNE dominating most their areas neither with the routes you realistically want.

(26 Jan 2022, 2:33 pm)OrangeArrow49 wrote Is their still going to be a bus at Kingston Park like the 42A? , and is the Q3 getting curtailed at St Peters?

All of the services I use are getting destroyed - 42A, Q3, X84/X85. Hopefully the 74 survives.

Interested to see what the new fares will be, and hopefully they are still good. 

Might be Arriva for me in the future for North Tyneside, GNE for Gateshead and Durham.

I replied to the PM you sent but can't say too much. There's still services over there though.

(26 Jan 2022, 2:22 pm)DaveFromUpNorth wrote Battlehill does have a good pick up usage however getting rid of 41 and 41A through Battlehill or removing the service altogether would be criminal as that is the only link to Wallsend even if the evening services are currently contracted  as a secure service and often fails to operate the service.

A few older residents  need this service for access to Wallsend, the service allows staff to go to work at the many care homes dotted around the route.

You also have to think in 2022 there is a new urgent care centre being opened in Wallsend and this current service provides a major link from Hadrian Park Battlehill High Farm.

There current 553 although goes to Battlehill doesn't actually operate past Lidl and the shops  a quick drive past the shops to the Buzz Bingo and back and battlehill drive could create more passengers for a nexus secured contract  wether its for Bingo, B and Q Smyths toy shop before heading back along Battlehill you then create a link to Wallsend.

It also means you can get off say the 306 309 310 311 and not move bus stops to get a link to Freeman Hospital etc . . .

Another poster mentioned that the 41 will be remaining Wallsend-Hadrian Park only, I assume commercially, but operating via Wiltshire Drive.

(26 Jan 2022, 2:59 pm)Storx wrote Probably more to do with the routes imo. Arriva and Stagecoach have some very strong corridors (X10/X11/X21/X22/X15/X18/306/308/6/7/63/64/X93/1: Arriva), (1/39/40/62/63 and so on: SNE). Apart from the 20, 21, 56, 60 and X1. There's nothing that really stands out in terms of making a fortune. On the otherhand they have some very weak routes, (82/83/11/42/42A/5/26/28/29/Peterlee locals).

Not sure there's much you could really do with some of the routes realistically as there's just not the demand and over the years they've butchered the network to a level where there's literally nothing left to butcher.

It doesn't help there's the Metro / Arriva and SNE dominating most their areas neither with the routes you realistically want.



I replied to the PM you sent but can't say too much. There's still services over there though.

Doesn't look good for GNE. They have unique territory with Gateshead and Durham for the most part, but don't compete well in Newcastle or North Tyneside (or even Northumberland). Constantly making changes means they don't have an established network in the same way as the other bus operators do. 

Hopefully all these new tenders will open up opportunities for independent operators (if Gateshead Central Taxis don't get them all). Might have to walk more with the reduction of the 684 if there is a specific time I need to be somewhere, with a 3-hourly 74 and hourly 684 to work around. For North Tyneside Arriva looks very much my future, after 16 years of not using them. Expect they will get the 42/42A routes merged into their services.

(26 Jan 2022, 2:59 pm)Storx wrote Probably more to do with the routes imo. Arriva and Stagecoach have some very strong corridors (X10/X11/X21/X22/X15/X18/306/308/6/7/63/64/X93/1: Arriva), (1/39/40/62/63 and so on: SNE). Apart from the 20, 21, 56, 60 and X1. There's nothing that really stands out in terms of making a fortune. On the otherhand they have some very weak routes, (82/83/11/42/42A/5/26/28/29/Peterlee locals).

Not sure there's much you could really do with some of the routes realistically as there's just not the demand and over the years they've butchered the network to a level where there's literally nothing left to butcher.

It doesn't help there's the Metro / Arriva and SNE dominating most their areas neither with the routes you realistically want.



I replied to the PM you sent but can't say too much. There's still services over there though.

ANE and Stagecoach have kept there routes more or less stable.   It has been mentioned that Arriva have made cuts, but these have been frequency reductions rather than routes being curtailed, diverted or stopped.  it seems like GNE chop and change very quickly. How many different brands have there been in the last few years?

(26 Jan 2022, 3:35 pm)Bazza wrote ANE and Stagecoach have kept there routes more or less stable.   It has been mentioned that Arriva have made cuts, but these have been frequency reductions rather than routes being curtailed, diverted or stopped.  it seems like GNE chop and change very quickly. How many different brands have there been in the last few years?

Yeah totally agreed and it helps imo as it means people know what they're getting but with some tweaks here and there to help people get around; 22 to Cobalt for example. Obvious some would say they're stuck in a network from 10 year ago which is probably true aswell and don't go where they want to go but it's a risk changing things as if it goes wrong then people won't be too keen to return.

It'll be interesting to see what happens in County Durham if similar cuts are made as the council down there aren't as open as subsidising things as Nexus are in general.

(26 Jan 2022, 2:59 pm)Storx wrote Probably more to do with the routes imo. Arriva and Stagecoach have some very strong corridors (X10/X11/X21/X22/X15/X18/306/308/6/7/63/64/X93/1: Arriva), (1/39/40/62/63 and so on: SNE). Apart from the 20, 21, 56, 60 and X1. There's nothing that really stands out in terms of making a fortune. On the otherhand they have some very weak routes, (82/83/11/42/42A/5/26/28/29/Peterlee locals).

Stagecoach South Shields also have some good loadings, granted that it is a day time, pretty much falls apart in the evening. 

X20,55 can get some good loads, mainly with Doxford Park & Colleges's X20 - Durham, New College, Sunderland. - It does get quite busy. 

Really the only part of the North East that GNE really have control of is Newcastle going to Consett/Hexham down to Durham-Easington area. 

As you have highlighted the 60/56 while they may be popular I thought they would have had new buses (60/56), they could have easily been used for the less popular 57. 

I thought GNE were bigger than they were, but they are just shrinking really, yes the 21 extension to brandon, X21 to West Auckland may have worked but then they cut the 208, and gave up around Peterlee and just let the 22/23/24 take over. (granted these aren't as popular as they used to be, but are used a lot by kids from EDC). Whereas I wouldn't say bar the 32/32A SNE don't have many weak routes SC have very intercity routes, with not many terminating, where as GNE are long distance into the city from places 1 hour etc away. GNE could create routes to combat ANE, from Newcastle - Middlesbrough Via Durham. Newcastle - Durham part would be especially busy. As traviling on the 21 past Durham, to Brandon it does get busier, and less are on Arriva, but then you see arriva bus at Durham leaving for Brandon at like 20:00, full and there's the issue. 

If GNE are going to do the same thing as Oxford, might be worth just splitting it up into. 
Stagecoach will run west of Newcastle/Arriva North/East 
GNE run south of Newcastle + hexham/Wallsend etc.

(26 Jan 2022, 3:55 pm)Storx wrote Yeah totally agreed and it helps imo as it means people know what they're getting but with some tweaks here and there to help people get around; 22 to Cobalt for example. Obvious some would say they're stuck in a network from 10 year ago which is probably true aswell and don't go where they want to go but it's a risk changing things as if it goes wrong then people won't be too keen to return.

It'll be interesting to see what happens in County Durham if similar cuts are made as the council down there aren't as open as subsidising things as Nexus are in general.

I think the SNE network works as it does, cos it doesn't take someone an hour plus to get to work or the shops. 
They can get from a - b pretty easily.

Using Newcastle as an example. 
Newburn to Quorum. 
Killingworth to the Business Park... You get the gist.

The footprint of the network is pretty small vs ANE or GNE and if someone does need to change buses, they're not sitting there for the best part of an hour on the first leg.

It's stable because it works.

However, when you compare it to Shields, Sunderland and Hartlepool, I'm not sure I am of the same opinion.

I've kept quiet on these rumoured changes on purpose. It's well documented what I think GNE do and don't need to do. They're seemingly sticking with the slashing method and I'm not convinced it's the right method.

(26 Jan 2022, 5:44 pm)Andreos1 wrote I've kept quiet on these rumoured changes on purpose. It's well documented what I think GNE do and don't need to do. They're seemingly sticking with the slashing method and I'm not convinced it's the right method.

What do you think they should be going?