Go North East: Major Service Changes July 2022

[peter]

From these changes, does anyone know which GNE routes don't have any Gov support at all, as I know a lot have them for early mornings and late nights and so far I have 

X10
X1
65
21
X21

Looking through BusTimes, which says if services are supported by subsidy, not sure how reliable that is mind, the only ones not supported by subsidy in any capacity are: 2/2a, 4, 21, 33, 38, 53/54, 56, 58, 97, X1, X6, X10, X21, X66

I answered said question a couple of pages back. The 65 sees some sort of funding from DCC.

[V514DFT]

Dont see the 41 lasting around Howdon,everytime ive seen it,its been empty,and thats at different times of the day

[James101]

From these changes, does anyone know which GNE routes don't have any Gov support at all, as I know a lot have them for early mornings and late nights and so far I have 

X10
X1
65
21
X21

Do you mean additional support? 

Between bus recovery grants, bus service operator grants and concessional reimbursement I don’t believe any bus service is without support. No operator truly covers the cost of running a bus, other than perhaps intercity coach travel.

If bus services were truly deregulated, the operators would be liable for their costs of operation in full. Instead we’re in the sham situation where, even in the best of times, operators get millions in subsidies but offer no accountability in how or where services operate.

[Jimmi]

Residents feeling left behind after changes to Tynedale Links 681 bus
https://www.hexham-courant.co.uk/news/20...s-681-bus/

[DeltaMan]

Residents feeling left behind after changes to Tynedale Links 681 bus
https://www.hexham-courant.co.uk/news/20...s-681-bus/

I wonder if NCC need the bus to do a school from September before and after the 681, and that is why they changed it?

That would explain the squeezed timetable

[GNE6312]

I wonder if NCC need the bus to do a school from September before and after the 681, and that is why they changed it?

That would explain the squeezed timetables

Shouldn't really leave people with limited service just fir a scholars, if they need it just make it standalone and actually add the extra service to keep people connected and give people time to shop so people aren't isolated.

[DeltaMan]

Shouldn't really leave people with limited service just fir a scholars, if they need it just make it standalone and actually add the extra service to keep people connected and give people time to shop so people aren't isolated.

I'm not justifying it, but I assume somebody at NCC has decided they can save the cost of a bus over the term of a contract, potentially hundreds of thousands of pounds, by simply changing the off peak timetable.

[Storx]

Shouldn't really leave people with limited service just fir a scholars, if they need it just make it standalone and actually add the extra service to keep people connected and give people time to shop so people aren't isolated.

Might sound harsh but I don't know what the numbers are but if it's running empty 9/10 of the time, I'd rather my council tax was being paid somewhere more useful than running a bus service carrying fresh air in the middle of nowhere.

Heck it's probably cheaper to give tokens to the few villages along there which gives them a free taxi back from Haltwhistle when they need it so they can go whenever they want.

[Bazza]

Heck it's probably cheaper to give tokens to the few villages along there which gives them a free taxi back from Haltwhistle when they need it so they can go whenever they want.

Interesting idea. 

I bet a free taxi would get a fair few car users out of their motors.

[omnicity4659]

Might sound harsh but I don't know what the numbers are but if it's running empty 9/10 of the time, I'd rather my council tax was being paid somewhere more useful than running a bus service carrying fresh air in the middle of nowhere.

If you think that is wastage, you don't want to see how much of your money NCC spaff on things behind closed doors.

[Adrian]

Might sound harsh but I don't know what the numbers are but if it's running empty 9/10 of the time, I'd rather my council tax was being paid somewhere more useful than running a bus service carrying fresh air in the middle of nowhere.

Heck it's probably cheaper to give tokens to the few villages along there which gives them a free taxi back from Haltwhistle when they need it so they can go whenever they want.

Business is never going to be booming, given the tiny settlements that it serves South of Haltwhistle. Alston is probably the biggest and even at that, there's only around 1,000 living there. Just because they're tiny settlements, it doesn't mean they're not worth your council tax and should live in isolation.

It's literally two buses a day, and all they're asking for is for some common-sense in the timetable. It's probably safe to assume that Haltwhistle is the direction of travel, given that is where most services are, yet the timetable doesn't provide a return journey for the second Haltwhistle-bound bus a day. Who are we timetabling for? The people that use buses, or the people that run them? 

This is the type of service councils should be supporting in my opinion, because those who don't or can't drive, are left with very few other options. The suggestion of taxi tokens is a moot point, because there's very unlikely to be anyone providing taxi services in the local vicinity. They're likely having to come from one of the bigger settlements like Brampton or Haltwhistle.

[Jimmi]

I wonder if NCC need the bus to do a school from September before and after the 681, and that is why they changed it?

That would explain the squeezed timetable

Looking at the timetable it does scream that it's timetabled to fit round a scholars duty.

The later journeys on Saturday afternoons do remain however departing Alston at 15:15 and Birdoswald at 16:30 heading to Alston via Haltwhistle (must say I did the last 681 on a Saturday from Haltwhistle to Alston just before the changes and it only carried me and another enthusiast trying out the demo Iveco Ilesbus, was surprised to pick up another passenger along the route on the now withdrawn X81 to Hexham)

[DeltaMan]

Looking at the timetable it does scream that it's timetabled to fit round a scholars duty.

The later journeys on Saturday afternoons do remain however departing Alston at 15:15 and Birdoswald at 16:30 heading to Alston via Haltwhistle (must say I did the last 681 on a Saturday from Haltwhistle to Alston just before the changes and it only carried me and another enthusiast trying out the demo Iveco Ilesbus, was surprised to pick up another passenger along the route on the now withdrawn X81 to Hexham)

Ah, well spotted with the Saturday. That will be it then. It must be a schools run which prevents the bus being in Alston earlier on weekdays

[xpm]

Might sound harsh but I don't know what the numbers are but if it's running empty 9/10 of the time, I'd rather my council tax was being paid somewhere more useful than running a bus service carrying fresh air in the middle of nowhere.

Heck it's probably cheaper to give tokens to the few villages along there which gives them a free taxi back from Haltwhistle when they need it so they can go whenever they want.

and that is exactly the problem - half the time it is completely empty, might take an odd one or two from Alston to halty and back, a couple from Halton Lea Gate, and someone from Slaggy, but that's about it.  It could be a completely soul destroying duty ten and a half hours of solitude - worse in the winter when the weather came in - running about in bad conditions for no benefit for anyone - that triip back across Alston Moor and Whitfield could be long and hairy.

From what I understand it's a Beechings route - so there's always going to be some sort of service on there with a minimum number of journeys.  Prior to the most recent changes most people agreed the direction of travel at the time was the wrong way around - so it should have been going to Alston when it was coming from there - and vice-versa.

In latter years the last 185 was always empty both ways, and more often than not asides from tourist season you could often carry less than half a dozen people a day on all of the 185 trips.

681 was sometimes a little busier depending on whether an odd group of teenagers wanted to go to Halty to generally make a nuisance of themselves around the train station, but again more often than not it was an odd person here and there that were regulars - and by regular that was more often than not, once a week.

[Echolima07]

Another thing I’ve heard is that the 0900 from Alston was never supposed to accept Cumbria concessionary passes as they’re only active after 09:30.
So elderly passengers never really wanted to pay.
And from speaking to drivers that I know. During the months of winter you’d be lucky to have more than five passengers across the entire 10hrs30 shift.
And of them, they may not even take any cash or card fares.

[Andreos1]

Business is never going to be booming, given the tiny settlements that it serves South of Haltwhistle. Alston is probably the biggest and even at that, there's only around 1,000 living there. Just because they're tiny settlements, it doesn't mean they're not worth your council tax and should live in isolation.

It's literally two buses a day, and all they're asking for is for some common-sense in the timetable. It's probably safe to assume that Haltwhistle is the direction of travel, given that is where most services are, yet the timetable doesn't provide a return journey for the second Haltwhistle-bound bus a day. Who are we timetabling for? The people that use buses, or the people that run them? 

This is the type of service councils should be supporting in my opinion, because those who don't or can't drive, are left with very few other options. The suggestion of taxi tokens is a moot point, because there's very unlikely to be anyone providing taxi services in the local vicinity. They're likely having to come from one of the bigger settlements like Brampton or Haltwhistle.

I've often wondered how many of those thousand in Alston actually know about the service (given the limited nature of its runs) or connections it actually throws up.

I tried to plan a Round Robin type trip once, with a couple of stops along the way and found doing anything other than a there and back trip pretty difficult, I'd hazard a guess that the locals who are aware of its existence think that however vital it is, those connections are pretty poor too.

Bank Holidays, South Tynedale Railway, Allenheads, Allendale Town, local footpaths/walks/cycle routes, tourist attractions, Alston, and tourism all play a part in keeping visitors coming to that area - yet are seemingly ignored.
Locals and their needs are seemingly ignored. 

Last time I was over that way on a Bank Holiday weekend, I was genuinely amazed at the lack of joined up thinking or partnership work when it come to sustainable public transport.
In a nutshell, there was none and each of those places listed above saw visitors arriving by any other means than bus.

And now this.

---

Business is never going to be booming, given the tiny settlements that it serves South of Haltwhistle. Alston is probably the biggest and even at that, there's only around 1,000 living there. Just because they're tiny settlements, it doesn't mean they're not worth your council tax and should live in isolation.

It's literally two buses a day, and all they're asking for is for some common-sense in the timetable. It's probably safe to assume that Haltwhistle is the direction of travel, given that is where most services are, yet the timetable doesn't provide a return journey for the second Haltwhistle-bound bus a day. Who are we timetabling for? The people that use buses, or the people that run them? 

This is the type of service councils should be supporting in my opinion, because those who don't or can't drive, are left with very few other options. The suggestion of taxi tokens is a moot point, because there's very unlikely to be anyone providing taxi services in the local vicinity. They're likely having to come from one of the bigger settlements like Brampton or Haltwhistle.

[Storx]

Business is never going to be booming, given the tiny settlements that it serves South of Haltwhistle. Alston is probably the biggest and even at that, there's only around 1,000 living there. Just because they're tiny settlements, it doesn't mean they're not worth your council tax and should live in isolation.

It's literally two buses a day, and all they're asking for is for some common-sense in the timetable. It's probably safe to assume that Haltwhistle is the direction of travel, given that is where most services are, yet the timetable doesn't provide a return journey for the second Haltwhistle-bound bus a day. Who are we timetabling for? The people that use buses, or the people that run them? 

This is the type of service councils should be supporting in my opinion, because those who don't or can't drive, are left with very few other options. The suggestion of taxi tokens is a moot point, because there's very unlikely to be anyone providing taxi services in the local vicinity. They're likely having to come from one of the bigger settlements like Brampton or Haltwhistle.

and that is exactly the problem - half the time it is completely empty, might take an odd one or two from Alston to halty and back, a couple from Halton Lea Gate, and someone from Slaggy, but that's about it.  It could be a completely soul destroying duty ten and a half hours of solitude - worse in the winter when the weather came in - running about in bad conditions for no benefit for anyone - that triip back across Alston Moor and Whitfield could be long and hairy.

From what I understand it's a Beechings route - so there's always going to be some sort of service on there with a minimum number of journeys.  Prior to the most recent changes most people agreed the direction of travel at the time was the wrong way around - so it should have been going to Alston when it was coming from there - and vice-versa.

In latter years the last 185 was always empty both ways, and more often than not asides from tourist season you could often carry less than half a dozen people a day on all of the 185 trips.

681 was sometimes a little busier depending on whether an odd group of teenagers wanted to go to Halty to generally make a nuisance of themselves around the train station, but again more often than not it was an odd person here and there that were regulars - and by regular that was more often than not, once a week.

Going to reply together as it's easier otherwise I'll just be parroting myself. See I'm not surprised at all that it's like that, the timing's make it absolutely impossible for anyone who works to use the services so all your going to be left with is a few pensioners who will pop out once in a blue moon.

Personally I don't think conventional bus services work in rural areas as it takes people where they don't want to be and you can't really adjust it since there's no demand in the first place. imo they should start community transport groups where they engage with the pensioners and setup a selection of routes similar to Spirit Group used to be in Rothbury, bar they got no funding at all because Hexham get's most the funding in Northumberland and got forced to close down especially since they changed the X14 timetable so it was impossible to connect the services anymore.

So in the end you end up with services like

Monday - Alston to Haltwhistle
Tuesday - Alston to Hexham
Wednesday - No Service
Thursday - Alston to Haltwhistle
Friday - Alston to Carlisle via Brampton
Saturday - Alston to Hexham
Sunday - No Service

I'd also do the same with the 689 for similar reasons.

I do believe the 680 / 688 should remain though.

The 684 / 687 should be merged again, don't know why they were split so there's more connections and destinations from Newborough.

and the 683/686 withdrawn altogether replaced with a deal with a local taxi firm offering low fares within the zones of those routes, say £3 Max fare for a taxi within Hexham or the 686 route and NCC subsidise it.

Would offer the local residents a much much better service and reduce the amount wasted on buses going where people don't want / need them.

[Ambassador]

Surely this is exactly the sort of area where DRT is perfect for?

[Storx]

Surely this is exactly the sort of area where DRT is perfect for?

Not sure it would work there as it's so sparse so you'd just end up having minibuses effectively running a taxi service and there's not really any way of grouping passengers together sensibly since there's only one road with about 100 houses for 15 miles and going a different way would add 10+ miles to the route ie Alston to Hexham via Haltwhistle would be a horribly long journey especially if it's got 2 passengers the whole route.

It was my first though.

[Adrian]

Surely this is exactly the sort of area where DRT is perfect for?

I'm not convinced it would be. What kind of resource do you think would be needed to cover an area the size of South (and West, given the similar challenges) Northumberland, vs. the cost of providing 4x Solos or whatever it is? 

Tees Flex has I think 11 vehicles, and they're paying Stagecoach just over £1 million a year to operate it.