(21 Jun 2023, 9:39 pm)F114TML wrote I don't think it is necessarily sad, considering the 3 (for example) is made up of the 2 (Town - Farringdon), 3 (Town - Plains Farm - Gilley Law) and 27 (Town - North Hylton Road - Hylton Castle), and was there really a need for three routes between Thorney Close, the Town and Fulwell/Dene Estate? Christ knows what a certain someone hellbent on diverting the 61 just cos would've made of that!

I remember in the late 80s , the 23, 24 and 25 going from Thorney Close over to Seaburn area. Throw in the 22 around mid 1990s.

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(21 Jun 2023, 9:30 pm)stagecoachbusdepot wrote Worrying when it's been produced by professional cartographers, I'd assumed it was in house when I saw it!

Might partly be because they have opted for thin lines for the routes but it struck me how sparse the coverage looks, but then the South Shields one is same format and looks on first glance as being a lot more comprehensive in terms of network coverage.  It's been discussed before but sad to see really what was a network of around 30 services in the Sunderland Busways days reduced to 12 now (excluding the Es which were always Shields' operated till recently).

Also the part of the map thst details sevice pick ups and drop offs in the town. It still mentions Gilley Law in relation to service 3.

(21 Jun 2023, 10:13 pm)Economic505 wrote I remember in the late 80s , the 23, 24 and 25 going from Thorney Close over to Seaburn area. Throw in the 22 around mid 1990s.

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Also the part of the map thst details sevice pick ups and drop offs in the town. It still mentions Gilley Law in relation to service 3.

Thorney Close had a mixture of bus services over the decades with TWOC 118/119/X2 also 168 going past Thorney Close on Durham road, Redby 23A, busways 21/22/23/24/25 and also when busways service 5 Red House to town got extended to Thorney Close when the 23/24 had minibuses on between Town and Seaburn, which was short lived and got reverted back , probably be more services but can’t remember at top of my head.


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The 59 timetable has been released on the DCC website.

(21 Jun 2023, 9:30 pm)stagecoachbusdepot wrote Worrying when it's been produced by professional cartographers, I'd assumed it was in house when I saw it!

Might partly be because they have opted for thin lines for the routes but it struck me how sparse the coverage looks, but then the South Shields one is same format and looks on first glance as being a lot more comprehensive in terms of network coverage.  It's been discussed before but sad to see really what was a network of around 30 services in the Sunderland Busways days reduced to 12 now (excluding the Es which were always Shields' operated till recently).

Also, re it looking sparse, I think it's more the omission of the 99, which actually did a surprising amount of work making it look 'busy' - it doesn't help that they've left labels for roads and places served by the 12 and 99 (here's the previous version for reference: https://tiscon-maps-stagecoachbus.s3.ama...023JAN.pdf - this version also has the errors I listed above, but even more worryingly the route of the 12 and 13 is wrong around Town End Farm - it shows some going in via Blackwood Road when all buses go in via Hylton Lane and Brunswick Road). In addition, Shields has a lot of common corridors which are shown (for example, Prince Edward Road at one point is served by the 3, 4, 7, 8, 10, 11, 12, 516, E6 and X34; Marsden Lane has 7, 8, 10, 11, E1, E2 and X34), you don't really get those in Sunderland, also the Shields routes are a lot more complex.

I remember a time where Chillingham Road had 7 buses, the 61/62/62A/62B/63/64/64A, some might see it as a good change, some see it as bad

The 59 has now appeared on VOSA.

(21 Jun 2023, 9:39 pm)F114TML wrote I don't think it is necessarily sad, considering the 3 (for example) is made up of the 2 (Town - Farringdon), 3 (Town - Plains Farm - Gilley Law) and 27 (Town - North Hylton Road - Hylton Castle), and was there really a need for three routes between Thorney Close, the Town and Fulwell/Dene Estate? Christ knows what a certain someone hellbent on diverting the 61 just cos would've made of that!

See I don't see the issue with those personally, there's a core group of services grouped together with similar numbers of the main section which branches out at the end to do different areas. It's a shame we don't have more of it imo for the Thornley Close services.

It's arguably better than the 2/2A/39/39A/39B/60/61 which serve the corridor through Ryhope and Grangetown. Now that's confusing which is just the same really.

(21 Jun 2023, 11:27 am)Economic505 wrote Updated network map for Sunderland, not showing the 99, so thst defo confirms it’s changed hands (again)! 

https://www.stagecoachbus.com/service-up...:33:41:560

Confirmed on VOSA today:

PB0002404/392 Cancelled (Short notice)
BUSWAYS TRAVEL SERVICES LTD
Route: Grangetown ASDA to Sunderland, Hylton Castle
Service number: 99 (99)
Service type: Normal Stopping
Effective date: 23 Jul 2023

Shocked nothing on here has been mentioned above the 59. Stagecoach haven't said owt. When's it expecting to start this 59 to Hartlepool

(25 Jun 2023, 2:32 pm)Busu284 wrote Shocked nothing on here has been mentioned above the 59. Stagecoach haven't said owt. When's it expecting to start this 59 to Hartlepool

Supposed to start from the same date as the Arriva changes, at the moment the 59 is only an emergency secured contract which is ran by GCT.


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I wonder if Stagecoach will have tweaks to their ticketing offering with the 59 contract? A Hartlepool + Co Durham day/mega rider? As otherwise they’ll not have a day ticket option available to those customers on the 59 route. The 59 may even get some passengers from wider Hartlepool going towards Durham, as the Arriva 24 is only marginally quicker and if there’s a more attractive ticket option that incorporates Stagecoach’s local routes in the town.

(26 Jun 2023, 1:53 pm)Drifter60 wrote I wonder if Stagecoach will have tweaks to their ticketing offering with the 59 contract? A Hartlepool + Co Durham day/mega rider? As otherwise they’ll not have a day ticket option available to those customers on the 59 route. The 59 may even get some passengers from wider Hartlepool going towards Durham, as the Arriva 24 is only marginally quicker and if there’s a more attractive ticket option that incorporates Stagecoach’s local routes in the town.

It's a Durham County Council tender, so Stagecoach do not set the fares or ticket products.

They may accept Hartlepool Megariders locally, but I suspect Durham CC will likely focus on single and return fares, plus potential acceptance of local Arriva zonal tickets instead.

(26 Jun 2023, 7:59 pm)RobinHood wrote It's a Durham County Council tender, so Stagecoach do not set the fares or ticket products.

They may accept Hartlepool Megariders locally, but I suspect Durham CC will likely focus on single and return fares, plus potential acceptance of local Arriva zonal tickets instead.

Accept all that but hasn’t it always been a case that the large operators used to accept their usual ticket products? So I don’t see why Stagecoach couldn’t decide to tweak a ticketing option? 

It’s raises a wider point though for instance the 71 Seaham to Chester, has just went from a DCC contract under GNE, whereby I imagine a great deal of fare-paying passengers were using GNE day/week tickets etc. so the income from fares wouldn’t be that high, whereas now I understand they’re no longer accepted so the amount of income from singles and returns will be higher. Does that make the route look more profitable? 

Do DCC get the income from fares? If so, how does it work if a passenger boards and uses an operator day ticket? 

The whole system of Council contracts seems flawed to me. The discussion has been had before though, but I do think bus operations are now entirely depleted and the system needs major overhaul.

Didn't know where to put it but can anyone remember when stagecoach before getting the 54 stopped serving Haymarket and what was the reason they stopped serving it. Exact year would be fantastic

PB0001987/319 Registered
CLEVELAND TRANSIT LTD
Route: Saltburn to Loftus
Service number: 1 (2)
Service type: Normal Stopping
Effective date: 10 Jul 2023

(26 Jun 2023, 10:07 pm)Drifter60 wrote Accept all that but hasn’t it always been a case that the large operators used to accept their usual ticket products? So I don’t see why Stagecoach couldn’t decide to tweak a ticketing option? 

It’s raises a wider point though for instance the 71 Seaham to Chester, has just went from a DCC contract under GNE, whereby I imagine a great deal of fare-paying passengers were using GNE day/week tickets etc. so the income from fares wouldn’t be that high, whereas now I understand they’re no longer accepted so the amount of income from singles and returns will be higher. Does that make the route look more profitable? 

Do DCC get the income from fares? If so, how does it work if a passenger boards and uses an operator day ticket? 

The whole system of Council contracts seems flawed to me. The discussion has been had before though, but I do think bus operations are now entirely depleted and the system needs major overhaul.

We don't accept dayriders or megariders on the 99 or 939 - indeed recently Nexus apparently told us to stop accepting the SmartZone tickets on the 99 because of.... reasons. Causes a fair bit of trouble especially on the 99; wouldn't be so bad if they stipulated the battleship grey livery on services tgat only accept Nexus tickets.

(27 Jun 2023, 9:59 am)F114TML wrote We don't accept dayriders or megariders on the 99 or 939 - indeed recently Nexus apparently told us to stop accepting the SmartZone tickets on the 99 because of.... reasons. Causes a fair bit of trouble especially on the 99; wouldn't be so bad if they stipulated the battleship grey livery on services tgat only accept Nexus tickets.

Assuming that's because Stagecoach don't want to give any money to Nexus from those fares and who can blame them. They were never their routes so it's no loss to them.

The 54 in Newcastle is the same I believe. The other Newcastle services they take a financial risk on ticketing (take the fares) so ticketing is upto them as far as I'm aware.

(27 Jun 2023, 9:59 am)F114TML wrote We don't accept dayriders or megariders on the 99 or 939 - indeed recently Nexus apparently told us to stop accepting the SmartZone tickets on the 99 because of.... reasons. Causes a fair bit of trouble especially on the 99; wouldn't be so bad if they stipulated the battleship grey livery on services tgat only accept Nexus tickets.

Ah interesting I never knew that, it’s probably correct that no contracted services should accept commercial operators tickets as 1) the LA are the one funding the service, not bus companies 2) it make it difficult when things change operators, such as the 99/939 you mention. 3) Bus operators shouldn’t be able to appear to have a more extensive network by utilising council contracts. Therefore making their own commercial tickets look more appealing and value for money.

Having said all that, I do think it’s pretty confusing that the 99 and 939 which to a customer perspective are just ‘Stagecoach’ buses but don’t accept those day/megarider tickets. Does a customer really know which buses are local authority contracts and what’s a commercial operation? I’ve seen a few comments before on social media when routes have been cut by the big three operators and people suggest that ‘Gateshead Central’ could take on the route, failing to understand that they don’t actually have any commercial services (happy to be corrected!) and the majority of buses they run are council contacts, many routes of which just happen to be ones that the big three have given up on. 

A standard livery - for council/nexus contracted services - should make a comeback across the board. There’s the grey area though with partly subsidised sections/evening runs etc. We’ve talked before about the transparency issue about this, and it’s still an issue really.

(27 Jun 2023, 12:38 pm)Drifter60 wrote Ah interesting I never knew that, it’s probably correct that no contracted services should accept commercial operators tickets as 1) the LA are the one funding the service, not bus companies 2) it make it difficult when things change operators, such as the 99/939 you mention. 3) Bus operators shouldn’t be able to appear to have a more extensive network by utilising council contracts. Therefore making their own commercial tickets look more appealing and value for money.

Having said all that, I do think it’s pretty confusing that the 99 and 939 which to a customer perspective are just ‘Stagecoach’ buses but don’t accept those day/megarider tickets. Does a customer really know which buses are local authority contracts and what’s a commercial operation? I’ve seen a few comments before on social media when routes have been cut by the big three operators and people suggest that ‘Gateshead Central’ could take on the route, failing to understand that they don’t actually have any commercial services (happy to be corrected!) and the majority of buses they run are council contacts, many routes of which just happen to be ones that the big three have given up on. 

A standard livery - for council/nexus contracted services - should make a comeback across the board. There’s the grey area though with partly subsidised sections/evening runs etc. We’ve talked before about the transparency issue about this, and it’s still an issue really.

A prefix character like a S for Secured or a N for Nexus etc… should be put in front of the service number, Along with the evening bus services that are secured, with the daytime service commercially ran by private commercial bus company.


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(27 Jun 2023, 1:47 pm)cbma06 wrote A prefix character like a S for Secured or a N for Nexus etc… should be put in front of the service number, Along with the evening bus services that are secured, with the daytime service commercially ran by private commercial bus company.


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I'd argue it's the most cost effective way of doing it. 

Whether passengers would understand the S71 or N71 is the same as the 71 and goes the same route as the 71, is another matter like.

I've said it once, ill say it again, bring back the twerly sign at the front of the bus.!!!

(27 Jun 2023, 3:09 pm)Andreos1 wrote I'd argue it's the most cost effective way of doing it. 

Whether passengers would understand the S71 or N71 is the same as the 71 and goes the same route as the 71, is another matter like.

Taking a example of service 71 between Seaham and Chester-le-street is a fully secured bus service , then it would be displayed as S71 for all journeys, with the local authorities doing a campaign about the prefix letter showing the public/passengers what bus services are being paid for with there taxpayers money which deemed not profitable for the greedy private bus companies who are there just for profit. Painting buses into Nexus livery for just doing secured work is just waste of money and resources since there probably end up on commercial services if bus companies are short etc…., private bus companies can’t even keep the right brands on the correct branded routes, GNE needs a wake up call and have a high percentage of fleet into a standard corporate livery and not vice versa, wonder how many passengers are confused with catching there bus service wondering what colour bus will it be


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Well, S/N prefix already have associations, S = School N = Night Bus, idk whether people might be confused, not that they look at the number anyway

But also who really cares

Does it really matter who runs a bus? Put it on a timetable for all means but other than that it's irrelevant.

Personally I'd rather see the opposite where there's a bus, it takes me somewhere, and I have a ticket that I can use on any bus. Whether it's GoNorthEast, Stagecoach, Arriva, GCT, Stanley Travel and so is just irrelevant imo with no specific operator tickets at all and no unique branding ie. TFL in London.

It just causes confusion and offers no benefits at all. At the same time, arguably it would benefit people out the loop as the network would instantly look much bigger, rather than what's around where there's numerous networks by different operators with little integration especially advertising wise. Sadly Nexus is a waste of space though and don't do stuff like this.

A basic network map ie. https://www.travelsouthyorkshire.com/get...r-2022.pdf would be a good start.

(27 Jun 2023, 10:38 pm)Storx wrote Does it really matter who runs a bus? Put it on a timetable for all means but other than that it's irrelevant.

Personally I'd rather see the opposite where there's a bus, it takes me somewhere, and I have a ticket that I can use on any bus. Whether it's GoNorthEast, Stagecoach, Arriva, GCT, Stanley Travel and so is just irrelevant imo with no specific operator tickets at all and no unique branding ie. TFL in London.

It just causes confusion and offers no benefits at all. At the same time, arguably it would benefit people out the loop as the network would instantly look much bigger, rather than what's around where there's numerous networks by different operators with little integration especially advertising wise. Sadly Nexus is a waste of space though and don't do stuff like this.

A basic network map ie. https://www.travelsouthyorkshire.com/get...r-2022.pdf would be a good start.

Nexus used to produce really high quality information including maps.  Unfortunately after doing so for decades, they decided to stop producing anything like this around 2011 in favour of....well, nowt.

(27 Jun 2023, 11:38 pm)stagecoachbusdepot wrote Nexus used to produce really high quality information including maps.  Unfortunately after doing so for decades, they decided to stop producing anything like this around 2011 in favour of....well, nowt.

The lack of any meaningful information is shameful. 

I challenge anybody to work out where they need to catch a Stagecoach bus in Newcastle City Centre as a new visitor. I think there is ONE poster at the junction of Blackett Street and Percy Street. Apart from that it's just Eldon Square and Haymarket for those specific locations. Oh, and out of date onward journey maps in Metro stations.

(27 Jun 2023, 11:38 pm)stagecoachbusdepot wrote Nexus used to produce really high quality information including maps.  Unfortunately after doing so for decades, they decided to stop producing anything like this around 2011 in favour of....well, nowt.

(28 Jun 2023, 4:46 am)DeltaMan wrote The lack of any meaningful information is shameful. 

I challenge anybody to work out where they need to catch a Stagecoach bus in Newcastle City Centre as a new visitor. I think there is ONE poster at the junction of Blackett Street and Percy Street. Apart from that it's just Eldon Square and Haymarket for those specific locations. Oh, and out of date onward journey maps in Metro stations.

Yeah totally agreed with both, can remember the Nexus ones well - not sure why they scrapped them tbh.

I wish Nexus would produce spider maps like they do in London like: https://content.tfl.gov.uk/bus-route-map...241022.pdf

Even if it was just the important stops, it would be massively helpful, they're just so easy to read and easy to tell which stop you need to get on etc.

(27 Jun 2023, 11:38 pm)stagecoachbusdepot wrote Nexus used to produce really high quality information including maps.  Unfortunately after doing so for decades, they decided to stop producing anything like this around 2011 in favour of....well, nowt.

(28 Jun 2023, 4:46 am)DeltaMan wrote The lack of any meaningful information is shameful. 

I challenge anybody to work out where they need to catch a Stagecoach bus in Newcastle City Centre as a new visitor. I think there is ONE poster at the junction of Blackett Street and Percy Street. Apart from that it's just Eldon Square and Haymarket for those specific locations. Oh, and out of date onward journey maps in Metro stations.

I'd not be surprised if they looked at budgets, analysed lead times with printers and just gave up the ghost. 
There's absolutely no way they could have or still can keep up with the changes that some operators make.

Not saying it's acceptable. Far from it. But I think it's symptomatic of the sector and the mess, lack of communication and failure of some operators to maintain any sort of network stability.

(27 Jun 2023, 9:11 pm)Unber43 wrote Well, S/N prefix already have associations, S = School N = Night Bus, idk whether people might be confused, not that they look at the number anyway

But also who really cares

The argument isn’t about who cares etc. It’s about that it should be transparent imo - buses are largely seen as commercial operations up here but actually there’s many incidents whereby the council/tax payers are funding services that the operators don’t deem commercially viable. Don’t people have right the know where their local authority are spending cash?

(27 Jun 2023, 10:38 pm)Storx wrote Does it really matter who runs a bus? Put it on a timetable for all means but other than that it's irrelevant.

Personally I'd rather see the opposite where there's a bus, it takes me somewhere, and I have a ticket that I can use on any bus. Whether it's GoNorthEast, Stagecoach, Arriva, GCT, Stanley Travel and so is just irrelevant imo with no specific operator tickets at all and no unique branding ie. TFL in London.

It just causes confusion and offers no benefits at all. At the same time, arguably it would benefit people out the loop as the network would instantly look much bigger, rather than what's around where there's numerous networks by different operators with little integration especially advertising wise. Sadly Nexus is a waste of space though and don't do stuff like this.

A basic network map ie. https://www.travelsouthyorkshire.com/get...r-2022.pdf would be a good start.

Well I agree the option you outline above seems much more favourable - but at the moments that’s not where we are at. It certainly would be a much more stable model, and allows better cross ticketing options etc. Because even with this new tickets suggesting by the NECA there’s still issues at county/local authority boundaries. 

Let’s say I live in Easington Colliery, maybe I need to use a Arriva bus to get to Hartlepool but then a Stagecoach bus to get across town to , what’s the ticket option just the NE explorer that covers everywhere from Berwick to Scarborough and across to Carlisle. Or let’s say I need to go the other way, if I need Arriva to Sunderland and then GNE to get to Doxford Park, what can I get for that journey - an explorer again?