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+--- Thread: Branding - Stay or go? (/showthread.php?tid=3860)
Branding - Stay or go? - L469 YVK - 30 Mar 2022
Here's a debate. Clearly arguments for and against both.
Should GNE retain branding as now? Or go down the following route:
- TyneTeesXpress (X10)
- XLines Generic - All applicable main 'X' routes
- GNE Electric (basically below but adapted for EV's)
- GNE Silver Service (but not called that) key 'Non X' routes
- GNE Corporate - For all other routes including secondary routes & minibus routes
RE: Branding - Stay or go? - Adrian - 30 Mar 2022
(30 Mar 2022, 4:04 pm)L469 YVK wrote Here's a debate. Clearly arguments for and against both.
Should GNE retain branding as now? Or go down the following route:
- TyneTeesXpress (X10)
- XLines Generic - All applicable main 'X' routes
- GNE Electric (basically below but adapted for EV's)
- GNE Silver Service (but not called that) key 'Non X' routes
- GNE Corporate - For all other routes including secondary routes & minibus routes
Where are your arguments for and against both?
RE: Branding - Stay or go? - Unber43 - 30 Mar 2022
(30 Mar 2022, 4:04 pm)L469 YVK wrote Here's a debate. Clearly arguments for and against both.So Silver Service, 21/56/58/X6/78/. So really any branded route.
Should GNE retain branding as now? Or go down the following route:
- TyneTeesXpress (X10)
- XLines Generic - All applicable main 'X' routes
- GNE Electric (basically below but adapted for EV's)
- GNE Silver Service (but not called that) key 'Non X' routes
- GNE Corporate - For all other routes including secondary routes & minibus routes
No, cos that is boring.
Branding - Stay or go? - cbma06 - 30 Mar 2022
Branding buses and route branded does not work as in a whole, GNE are losing or lost there mojo and image to the fare paying passenger, who or what is GNE these days, only a very small section of bus services should keep there brands only, the rest of the fleet should be in corporate livery.
Who can remember when printed timetables used to be just timetables and a fare table which is the only thing a passenger needed, now it’s like a tourist information map or a ordnance survey map which takes up a lot of space, does local councils have shares in bus companies or something. [emoji23]
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RE: Branding - Stay or go? - Storx - 30 Mar 2022
Rather see a generic livery across all operators in the North East under the following brands but I'll only do GNE routes.
Express - Fast routes connecting longer distance customers (X1, X6, X10, X20, X21, X30, X31 only)
Connect - Journeys connecting one or more towns with small communities in between (1, 2, 6, 9, 10, 309, 310, X5, X15, 21, 25, 56, X45, X46, 47, 60, 61, X70, X71, X72 and so on)
Local - Local journeys connecting one main town and small communities (5, 12, 39, 35, 51, 52, 55, 57, 58, 82, V1 and so on)
Electric - Different colour but still in their respective brand (53, 54)
Make the brands say on the tin what they actually do rather than some buses being XLines/MAX which aren't express and so on.
I'd also go further and brand each of the local with their respective name where it's based so SunderlandCity, Washington Locals, Consett Locals, North Tyneside Locals, NewcastleCity, Tynedale Locals and so on.
Branding - Stay or go? - cbma06 - 30 Mar 2022
(30 Mar 2022, 4:55 pm)Storx wrote Rather see a generic livery across all operators in the North East under the following brands but I'll only do GNE routes.
Express - Fast routes connecting longer distance customers (X1, X6, X10, X20, X21, X30, X31 only)
Connect - Journeys connecting one or more towns with small communities in between (1, 2, 6, 9, 10, 309, 310, X5, X15, 21, 25, 56, X45, X46, 47, 60, 61, X70, X71, X72 and so on)
Local - Local journeys connecting one main town and small communities (5, 12, 39, 35, 51, 52, 55, 57, 58, 82, V1 and so on)
Electric - Different colour but still in their respective brand (53, 54)
Make the brands say on the tin what they actually do rather than some buses being XLines/MAX which aren't express and so on.
I'd also go further and brand each of the local with their respective name where it's based so SunderlandCity, Washington Locals, Consett Locals, North Tyneside Locals, NewcastleCity, Tynedale Locals and so on.
Can’t see a generic livery brand across all operators in the north east, it’s like saying a generic brand for all the supermarkets into one livery, the companies have to have there own identity (in which GNE lost there’s years ago [emoji1787])
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RE: Branding - Stay or go? - Unber43 - 30 Mar 2022
(30 Mar 2022, 4:55 pm)Storx wrote Rather see a generic livery across all operators in the North East under the following brands but I'll only do GNE routes.I would put the X45, X46 in the top bracket.
Express - Fast routes connecting longer distance customers (X1, X6, X10, X20, X21, X30, X31 only)
Connect - Journeys connecting one or more towns with small communities in between (1, 2, 6, 9, 10, 309, 310, X5, X15, 21, 25, 56, X45, X46, 47, 60, 61, X70, X71, X72 and so on)
Local - Local journeys connecting one main town and small communities (5, 12, 39, 35, 51, 52, 55, 57, 58, 82, V1 and so on)
Electric - Different colour but still in their respective brand (53, 54)
Make the brands say on the tin what they actually do rather than some buses being XLines/MAX which aren't express and so on.
I'd also go further and brand each of the local with their respective name where it's based so SunderlandCity, Washington Locals, Consett Locals, North Tyneside Locals, NewcastleCity, Tynedale Locals and so on.
But surely that defeats the point of XLines.
RE: Branding - Stay or go? - ne14ne1 - 30 Mar 2022
(30 Mar 2022, 5:36 pm)cbma06 wrote Can’t see a generic livery brand across all operators in the north east, it’s like saying a generic brand for all the supermarkets into one livery, the companies have to have there own identity (in which GNE lost there’s years ago [emoji1787])
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That’s exactly what was proposed under the (unfortunately) failed Quality Contracts(?) scheme some years back.
Now that Manchester is going down a London style scheme it’s starting to look a little more promising for other areas such as the North East.
Branding - Stay or go? - cbma06 - 30 Mar 2022
(30 Mar 2022, 6:07 pm)ne14ne1 wrote That’s exactly what was proposed under the (unfortunately) failed Quality Contracts(?) scheme some years back.
Now that Manchester is going down a London style scheme it’s starting to look a little more promising for other areas such as the North East.
The north east won’t get the same as Manchester, as the councils up in the north east can’t decide on elect a mayor to be appointed which was one of the conditions from the government
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RE: Branding - Stay or go? - Storx - 30 Mar 2022
(30 Mar 2022, 5:36 pm)cbma06 wrote Can’t see a generic livery brand across all operators in the north east, it’s like saying a generic brand for all the supermarkets into one livery, the companies have to have there own identity (in which GNE lost there’s years ago [emoji1787])
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Yeah same sadly and tbh they'd probably all do better moneywise if they did aswell so people are confused as tbh no-one really cares if it's Stagecoach, GNE, Arriva, GCT and so on as long tickets worked across them all.
(30 Mar 2022, 5:38 pm)Unber43 wrote I would put the X45, X46 in the top bracket.
But surely that defeats the point of XLines.
They're not express routes though so it just dilutes the point of an express service. My idea is based purely on the route type rather than putting letters on numbers and which ones you like more etc. Same applies with Arriva with the 306, 308, X7, X8 and X9 which aren't really express either.
The express network really is the
Arriva: 685, X10, X11, X12, X14, X15, X18, X20, X21, X22
GNE: X1, X6, X10, X20, X21, X30, X31, X66
SNE: 100, X24, X34, X63, X77, X78, X79, X82
I'm undecided on the SNE X47, X87, X88 as even known they're express they'd be better branded under the NewcastleCity brand imo.
RE: Branding - Stay or go? - Unber43 - 30 Mar 2022
(30 Mar 2022, 7:05 pm)Storx wrote Yeah same sadly and tbh they'd probably all do better moneywise if they did aswell so people are confused as tbh no-one really cares if it's Stagecoach, GNE, Arriva, GCT and so on as long tickets worked across them all.X45/X46, are express version of the slower version the 47.
They're not express routes though so it just dilutes the point of an express service. My idea is based purely on the route type rather than putting letters on numbers and which ones you like more etc. Same applies with Arriva with the 306, 308, X7, X8 and X9 which aren't really express either.
The express network really is the
Arriva: 685, X10, X11, X12, X14, X15, X18, X20, X21, X22
GNE: X1, X6, X10, X20, X21, X30, X31, X66
SNE: 100, X24, X34, X63, X77, X78, X79, X82
I'm undecided on the SNE X47, X87, X88 as even known they're express they'd be better branded under the NewcastleCity brand imo.
RE: Branding - Stay or go? - MurdnunoC - 30 Mar 2022
(30 Mar 2022, 7:10 pm)Unber43 wrote X45/X46, are express version of the slower version the 47.
X45/46 replaced the 45/46 initially with the intention that the service would operate non-stop between Central Station and Metrocentre thus cutting one whole minute from the journey.
During the pandemic both services started to, once again, serve all stops between Metrocentre and Central Station and continue to do so to this day. The X45/46 are certainly not express services and, as the current 47/47a did not continue to Consett until recently, you cannot argue that those services are the 'express' version of the 47/47a as the route of the X45/46 existed beforehand
RE: Branding - Stay or go? - Unber43 - 30 Mar 2022
(30 Mar 2022, 7:45 pm)MurdnunoC wrote X45/46 replaced the 45/46 initially with the intention that the service would operate non-stop between Central Station and Metrocentre thus cutting one whole minute from the journey.X45/46 do operate Non-Stop between Central Station and Metro.
During the pandemic both services started to, once again, serve all stops between Metrocentre and Central Station and continue to do so to this day. The X45/46 are certainly not express services and, as the current 47/47a did not continue to Consett until recently, you cannot argue that those services are the 'express' version of the 47/47a as the route of the X45/46 existed beforehand
Whenever I have been on it it has driven past people. I sometimes get off the 47 when I get on it at the Metrocentre if the X45/46 is behind and I normally pass the 47/ get into Eldon Square before it
RE: Branding - Stay or go? - Malarkey - 30 Mar 2022
For me i'd rather see local based branding come back such Northern, Wear Buses, Coastline, Sunderland & District, Gateshead & District etc as I still here the odd passenger use these names to identify Go North East as an operator as these are identities that up until 2006 were a major part of the companies historic branding image.
I think the only good branding we have had in recent years is the X-Lines the rest have been repetitive templated tosh which is easily identified and associated with other operators across the country who use the same designer for there respective operations, i'd like to see the North East brake that mold and go back to basics as I think while some of these brands do look smart, they are just amendments on what was initially introduced 16 years ago and for me branding has stood still in that time, the adage I can think of is the promotional aspect of promoting features the bus provides such as wifi/nsa and slogans for fare promotion, that's it and you can do that without the need of having these ridiculous brand names we have on some of our services.
RE: Branding - Stay or go? - MurdnunoC - 30 Mar 2022
(30 Mar 2022, 7:51 pm)Unber43 wrote X45/46 do operate Non-Stop between Central Station and Metro.
Whenever I have been on it it has driven past people. I sometimes get off the 47 when I get on it at the Metrocentre if the X45/46 is behind and I normally pass the 47/ get into Eldon Square before it
They don't.
They also stop at Kingfisher Court and on Team Street just before the traffic lights.
RE: Branding - Stay or go? - Unber43 - 30 Mar 2022
(30 Mar 2022, 8:24 pm)MurdnunoC wrote They don't.Well it may not be non-stop, but is like 14 less stops than the 47
They also stop at Kingfisher Court and on Team Street just before the traffic lights.
RE: Branding - Stay or go? - MurdnunoC - 30 Mar 2022
(30 Mar 2022, 8:34 pm)Unber43 wrote Well it may not be non-stop, but is like 14 less stops than the 47
14 stops between Metrocentre and Central Station? There are only nine as far as I can see, and that's including Handy Drive. So that's only six stops less than the 47.
Handy Drive (X45/46)
St Omers Road
Kingfisher Court (X45/46)
Teemers Drive
Gas Works (X45/46)
Askew Road (Bottom)
Askew Road (Middle)
Askew Road (Top)
Redheugh Bridge
RE: Branding - Stay or go? - DaveFromUpNorth - 30 Mar 2022
Keep the branding as it is useful
Many people and elderly with disabilities may not be able to read but recognise say a Quaylink bus they will associate that as the Yellow Bus
Or
Say Prince Bishops as the Purple Bus
It's like word association but brand association
Think the Cobalt route you want the silver and blue Bus
Yeah 95pc of buses are on branded routes but it does promote routes in other ways too
Who remembers seeing branded 685 branded service it can spark a debate to make a day out for people
Branding is useful
Think about if you see the Beamish advert Bus the association thinking I can get the bus to Beamish its a good thing branded buses as its self advertisement
You could be like Stagecoach who don't branded the buses ish
Look at X24 and X34 providing a visual advertisement when they were branded buses
You forget its enthuiasts on this page to the Joe public a bus is a bus and that is why branding and marketing is essential
If you work in Cobalt or Silverlink and see the branded bus going past you notice it and recognise it in other places and the colours associate where you have seen it so when in Cobalt people see the bus and read the side to associate where it goes
I say keep the branding and continue with it
RE: Branding - Stay or go? - Unber43 - 30 Mar 2022
(30 Mar 2022, 8:49 pm)MurdnunoC wrote 14 stops between Metrocentre and Central Station? There are only nine as far as I can see, and that's including Handy Drive. So that's only six stops less than the 47.Yeah sorry my mistake, I counted both wyas.
Handy Drive (X45/46)
St Omers Road
Kingfisher Court (X45/46)
Teemers Drive
Gas Works (X45/46)
Askew Road (Bottom)
Askew Road (Middle)
Askew Road (Top)
Redheugh Bridge
RE: Branding - Stay or go? - Storx - 30 Mar 2022
(30 Mar 2022, 7:10 pm)Unber43 wrote X45/X46, are express version of the slower version the 47.
As said later, there's barely any difference though.
Personally I'd just merge them all back as one and market it as 5 buses an hour between Rowlands Gill and Newcastle / Metro Centre rather than every 20 minutes and there's another 30 minute service aswell.
It's confusing having two similar routes for people not knowing where to go and you'll end up having people waiting longer than they need to, not to mention on a Sunday evening only the 47 runs to add even more confusion.
RE: Branding - Stay or go? - stagecoachbusdepot - 30 Mar 2022
(30 Mar 2022, 9:05 pm)DaveFromUpNorth wrote Keep the branding as it is useful
Many people and elderly with disabilities may not be able to read but recognise say a Quaylink bus they will associate that as the Yellow Bus
Or
Say Prince Bishops as the Purple Bus
It's like word association but brand association
Think the Cobalt route you want the silver and blue Bus
Yeah 95pc of buses are on branded routes but it does promote routes in other ways too
Who remembers seeing branded 685 branded service it can spark a debate to make a day out for people
Branding is useful
Think about if you see the Beamish advert Bus the association thinking I can get the bus to Beamish its a good thing branded buses as its self advertisement
You could be like Stagecoach who don't branded the buses ish
Look at X24 and X34 providing a visual advertisement when they were branded buses
You forget its enthuiasts on this page to the Joe public a bus is a bus and that is why branding and marketing is essential
If you work in Cobalt or Silverlink and see the branded bus going past you notice it and recognise it in other places and the colours associate where you have seen it so when in Cobalt people see the bus and read the side to associate where it goes
I say keep the branding and continue with it
Is there actually any evidence to back up the claims here? Stagecoach branded several buses for the 22 promoting the Cobalt links which (apart from 19385 which seems allergic to the paintshop and retains the branding) was retained for hardly any time. Similarly the route branding for X24 and X34 have been phased out so presumably Stagecoach didn’t see a positive impact from these.
In terms of people being unable to read but recognising the colour of the bus – somewhat dangerous if you think purple bus means Prince Bishops and you end up in Seaham (for example). Even without incorrect allocations, in the majority of cases, the notion that they have built up a brand identity based on colour is pretty baseless. Take the 4 as an example, in the last ten years it (or predecessor routes) have been yellow, metallic blue and now sickly mix of bright pink with blue. Toonlink went from yellow to purple to black. Yes there are some that have retained a consistent-ish colour but even the likes of Angel and Drifter which have been around ages started off different colours to now. Then of course there is also the sharing of brands across multiple services or the moving of brands around to suit vehicle allocations – lost track of how many services got dumped with Showstopper brand. Toonlink is another that jumped around, again making jumping on the purple/black bus and assuming you were on the right route something of a leap of faith.
It would be genuinely interesting to know (and suspect we never will unless working for one of the big companies) whether branding is actually cost effective when taking into account multiple repaints which can occur as a result (there’s an example elsewhere of one of the Streetdecks being onto its 4th repaint already; the former X5/X15s being another example of branding directly resulting in occurring additional costs when plans change).
RE: Branding - Stay or go? - omnicity4659 - 30 Mar 2022
When you have hundreds of mobile billboards driving around towns and cities then it makes sense to market them through route branding, however we've returned to branding for branding's sake yet again.
I've sat behind many GNE buses in the car, even as an 'enthusiast' I no longer know where a lot of their routes go - so having a Cherry bus saying "get out of the (traffic) jam" or an Xlines bus saying "posher than your car" doesn't really help...
Branding - Stay or go? - cbma06 - 31 Mar 2022
Branding doesn’t work when every single service has there own brand, and you end up branded bus on other branded routes, since deptford took Peterlee local routes from the weekend there’s been a corporate solo practically every day in Peterlee local routes while Peterlee purple solo been doing other branded routes in Sunderland, when there was a connections 4 bus on service 20, wonder how many passengers tried to board the bus at Houghton thinking it was on the 4, as with these brands most just think it’s on the 4
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RE: Branding - Stay or go? - Andreos1 - 31 Mar 2022
(30 Mar 2022, 10:34 pm)omnicity4659 wrote When you have hundreds of mobile billboards driving around towns and cities then it makes sense to market them through route branding, however we've returned to branding for branding's sake yet again.Some good points. But the one thing to add to this, is that money can be spent on cheesy lines like we see on the 2 about raisins, currents and other types of berries or even a traditional linear map displayed instead.
I've sat behind many GNE buses in the car, even as an 'enthusiast' I no longer know where a lot of their routes go - so having a Cherry bus saying "get out of the (traffic) jam" or an Xlines bus saying "posher than your car" doesn't really help...
If the bus doesn't take people to the places they need to be...
Then it makes absolutely no difference.
I was driving along Chester Road in Penshaw the other night and was amazed at how many cars came from the A1231 (East or westbound - not sure which, but plenty employers either side), on to the A19 and turned right on to a Penshaw/Shiney bound A183.
The same pattern is often reversed on a morning.
I'm not aware of any buses that follow that particular traffic flow or offer viable connections, offering a comparable journey time to the one made in the car.
Instead, I see however many multi coloured buses an hour going to and from Sunderland City Centre. As though it's still 1983 and all those employers on the North side of the river still haven't built their businesses there.
RE: Branding - Stay or go? - V514DFT - 31 Mar 2022
Keep the branding,as for the X45/46 arguement,im staying out of it lol
RE: Branding - Stay or go? - Ambassador - 31 Mar 2022
It's a hard one - most businesses would argue you grow the business through strong branding and proposition but buses are different. The vast majority of people are taking a bus because there is no other option for them or through the prohibitive cost of a taxi for example.
No amount of paint or slogans can fix the current driver shortages or the image the daily cancellation list creates of a brand. Route numbers are still prevalent form of branding - the 21 existed decades before anyone even thought of popping an Angel over a coal seam and whether its the red angel, the pink one or the green one - it's the 21.
There is value to some branding but stuff like berries and little pinks is nonsense really - it tells you nothing whereas X-Lines at least informs and educates about where the service goes. Then of course mixed allocations (Voyager, Corporate, random other route) don't help either at all.
Has the branding (and the wider bus market) moved on since 2006? Nope.
RE: Branding - Stay or go? - ne14ne1 - 31 Mar 2022
One strong unified integrated network is what a city/large metropolitan area needs.
All these different colours and names just make it confusing and appear fragmented, but it seems to keep the spotters and industry colleagues frothing.
RE: Branding - Stay or go? - Ambassador - 31 Mar 2022
(31 Mar 2022, 11:45 am)ne14ne1 wrote One strong unified integrated network is what a city/large metropolitan area needs.Indeed I read Roger French's recent blog in praise of Transdev Blazefield - he was extolling the virtues of paper timetables (a relic that I don't understand or see the value in attracting younger new passengers with) solid branding with buzzwords (Best Impressions obviously) plants in the bus station, on board recycling and friendly on board graphics as all these fantastic things.
All these different colours and names just make it confusing and appear fragmented, but it seems to keep the spotters and industry colleagues frothing.
The replies from actual passengers told a story of cancellations, fare rises, poor communication and generally poor relaibility which the writer hasn't responded to.
And that's an interesting point - are all these daft initiatives that French highlighted just naval gazing by bus managers who've been on a course and are told - this is how you do it and you'll win lots of awards in the industry and tick a few boxes - completely ignoring what passengers want or need? Reliable and value driven transport that takes them where they need to be.
RE: Branding - Stay or go? - Andreos1 - 31 Mar 2022
(31 Mar 2022, 11:31 am)Ambassador wrote It's a hard one - most businesses would argue you grow the business through strong branding and proposition but buses are different. The vast majority of people are taking a bus because there is no other option for them or through the prohibitive cost of a taxi for example.I'd argue they're advertising a brand or product. A brand or product that doesn't have much meaning to most people.
No amount of paint or slogans can fix the current driver shortages or the image the daily cancellation list creates of a brand. Route numbers are still prevalent form of branding - the 21 existed decades before anyone even thought of popping an Angel over a coal seam and whether its the red angel, the pink one or the green one - it's the 21.
There is value to some branding but stuff like berries and little pinks is nonsense really - it tells you nothing whereas X-Lines at least informs and educates about where the service goes. Then of course mixed allocations (Voyager, Corporate, random other route) don't help either at all.
Has the branding (and the wider bus market) moved on since 2006? Nope.
They're certainly not advertising the name of the operator and if they are intending to, they're not doing it well!
They're not selling the exact things passengers need or want (that includes potential passengers) and if they're not selling to meet needs and wants, it won't succeed.
Regardless of the colour, name or cheesy patter.
(31 Mar 2022, 11:45 am)ne14ne1 wrote One strong unified integrated network is what a city/large metropolitan area needs.You would be forgiven for thinking that's what they intended!
All these different colours and names just make it confusing and appear fragmented, but it seems to keep the spotters and industry colleagues frothing.
RE: Branding - Stay or go? - omnicity4659 - 31 Mar 2022
(31 Mar 2022, 12:07 pm)Ambassador wrote this is how you do it and you'll win lots of awards in the industry
The awards that they basically give to themselves?
