(28 Oct 2023, 11:15 pm)Andreos1 wrote There's no social housing at all in Portobello (not that it's an actual place, it lends it's name to a road, industrial estate and a school). 
Car usage is high across Vigo (where I think you're referring to) and it's all private housing.

It's been awful since it was built in the 60s and 70s and other than the 23 that served the older part of the estate and variations of the 82/83 in recent years, there's not been a bus service that's penetrated the estate ever.

(28 Oct 2023, 11:24 pm)Unber43 wrote Consett had the best network going after the Sept 2021 changes. 

The only thing I would change is the 47 one went to Castleside the other went to Shotley Bridge, and the X5 went to Castleside and X15 went to Shotley Bridge I think that would have been better. 

Aswell I was out early, and I was thinking with ISquared taking over Arriva, when Arriva goes in for pay negotations it could either go one way DB not wanting to talk at all, or they just give them whatever they want as theyll only be in control for maybe 6 months, however if they do the former and the drivers go out on a walk out, it might give GNE or SCNE (presumably GNE solve their dispute) to maybe purchase a depot from Arriva as they dont care theyve just sold the company, they dont want to pay their workers anymore, sell Belmont or Blyth/Ashington to GNE/SCNE make some money.

Also it is intresting that the amount of people learning to drive is reducing year upon year and that is going to have to lead to more use in public transport, that change hast to start now in crafting a network which is good, I would say pre-Sept 2021 changes GNE network was one of the best its ever been atleast in the past 10 years, they really tried, but I no one knew about it really. No one looks oooo lets see whats happening on Go North East, they need to market, I remember DAn sayign there was a big marketing push when Driver Shortage was over in the East Gateshead area, look how taht is now its only the EG Rider left.

And I think thats something else Branding, its unique to GNE yes, its perhaps not needed but it gives a route an identity, I cannot believe what happened to the Loops, there was no need to brand then East Gateshead Loop considering they spend half their time in west gateshead, same with the Orbits. Branding is something that should stay in my opinion but for it to work you need a solid network, just look at the failures with S&D.

For me most services should be branded...I know this is unpopular but I think the only services which should be unbranded is

25 (PVR 2)
34 (maybe, it does get busy)
41/41A (too many changes in NT)
99 (contracted runs 4 each day each way)
most few daily contracted services aswell
Why not brand the 701/702/703 - Chester-Le-Street Town Services.

Go back to old branding Simplicity, Silver Arrows, CityLink (58/57), no need for EG. Just the nromal Loop. for heaven sakes the Drifters flagship route has had no TLC for 10 years. Also the NTR what a joke "look out for a purple bus" theres more red and blue ones than purple, when theyre runnig that is, infact theyre the only service running and you see more coasters on them I mean FFS

But for branding to mean something you have focus on it, it means not allocating routes everywhere, it means sticking to spares being the 2019 lvieries buses only, no Prince Bishops popping up on the 700, or 60's spending more time in South tyneside. And the buses have to reliabile i mean just look at the state of the TVT, and there are going to be no new buses for years just old awful ex-london spec with rock hard seats, no USBs or anything, nothing to make people feel a reason to get the bus, "oh i can get a charge" "oh we can get a table" and I know that was one of my reasons to get the bus, but especially with the unreability of the fleet and the ex-london buses which are awful inside and wouldnt want to go on them.

(28 Oct 2023, 11:48 pm)Storx wrote Ah just realised those weird block houses off Portsmead Road aren't, always thought they were. Similar to some where I live and they are up here. 

It's a strange area as it's very similar to Stakeford and the West end of Ashington in terms of housing. The only difference is one can somehow manage 3 buses an hour with investment every other year and is actually above pre Covid levels and the other doesn't have anything.

I don't really sell of the car excuse anyway tbh. Cramlington can somehow manage a bus service and so can Kingston Park with it's 4 express buses an hour and that's all 1970's/1980's car in mind housing or Ponteland and it's 2 BPH.

Density of course I agree, running 4 BPH to Consett via a bunch of villages is always going to have it's problems, but these are pretty much urban and sub urban routes areas throughout.

---

Gonna reply in the other thread as it fits there better.

(29 Oct 2023, 12:08 am)Unber43 wrote 51/52 stop serving Newcastle was a bad decision

(29 Oct 2023, 1:04 am)Adrian wrote And it's far from an isolated incident. The company has been making bad decisions for more than a decade now.

A rudderless ship; chopping and changing course, no real plan, and an ultimate destination that's a pipe dream.

The latest line seems to be that North East drivers aren't as productive as those elsewhere. It's a good job they don't do performance related pay, because with the current state of affairs, the directors would end up owing the company money.

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(29 Oct 2023, 1:04 am)Adrian wrote And it's far from an isolated incident. The company has been making bad decisions for more than a decade now.

A rudderless ship; chopping and changing course, no real plan, and an ultimate destination that's a pipe dream.

The latest line seems to be that North East drivers aren't as productive as those elsewhere. It's a good job they don't do performance related pay, because with the current state of affairs, the directors would end up owing the company money.

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(29 Oct 2023, 8:16 am)Rob44 wrote Someone mention the great partk.... If you can afford a house on the great park ( starting from 325000 i belive) you can afford a taxi to where your going or even to the first stop with an arriva service. Alos all these new developments.. people who buy a house for 250000 plus with a double garage and 2 parking spaces arnt going to use the bus!!

(29 Oct 2023, 3:25 pm)MurdnunoC wrote Absolutely this.

While some on here bang on about buses not taking people where they want to go, we mustn't overlook the fact that planners and schedulers could spend millions on surveys finding out where people wanted to go - thus solving the problem - only to find that people are still not using the bus services on a network that has been redesigned and ostensibly improved.

No matter what you do, people are not going to give up the convenience and utility that the car offers. Let's face it, if you can afford to run a car, then you're probably not going to use a bus. 


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(29 Oct 2023, 3:25 pm)MurdnunoC wrote Absolutely this.

While some on here bang on about buses not taking people where they want to go, we mustn't overlook the fact that planners and schedulers could spend millions on surveys finding out where people wanted to go - thus solving the problem - only to find that people are still not using the bus services on a network that has been redesigned and ostensibly improved.

No matter what you do, people are not going to give up the convenience and utility that the car offers. Let's face it, if you can afford to run a car, then you're probably not going to use a bus.


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(29 Oct 2023, 3:40 pm)Andreos1 wrote What other things (within their own control) can they do go encourage growth, other than looking at the network and seeing what people actually want/need?

(29 Oct 2023, 3:51 pm)MurdnunoC wrote I never said that looking at the network isn't necessary, my question is once you change the network to suit what people indicate they want; and they still reject the bus in favour of the car (which is private, warm, reliable, there on-demand, takes you from door to door and allows for route deviations to obtain your shopping or whatever), what do you do then?


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(29 Oct 2023, 4:03 pm)Andreos1 wrote Look in the mirror and sleep tight knowing you at least tried to grow the network and used all the options available to you. 

As opposed to the current mob, who don't use all the options available to them.

(29 Oct 2023, 4:10 pm)Unber43 wrote Didn't GNE try? After the Sept 2021 changes the network for for a large part ideal.

(29 Oct 2023, 4:11 pm)Andreos1 wrote Not sure what you mean? 
All I've tended to see is a stagnant network that looks pretty much the same as the map in Beamish.

(29 Oct 2023, 5:11 pm)Unber43 wrote After Sept 2021 GNE network was the best it was in years, and that didnt work, so they need to go back to the drawing board, but they need to reinvent areas while keeping key flashsip routes while added routes around them to try and bolster the network whcih could cause the flagships to reduce frequncies. 

Like the 28/29 I wonder if an extension to Waldridge may be appropriate. Personally I quite like the hub and spoke model but that involves timing/the frequencys to be right, like if you wanted to go to Penshaw from NEwcaslte you used to miss the 2/2A on the X1 by about 3 mins, so it was either 27 min and leave newcastle early. Or X10, after 4/5pm the Purples dont run

(29 Oct 2023, 9:18 pm)MurdnunoC wrote The problem with hub and spoke models is that people tend to forget that hubs and spokes are there to support an even bigger structure: the wheel.

Hubs and spokes alone are pointless on their lonesome. You need things at the top of the spokes to make the model work more effectively. So, for example, having Durham and Consett at the end of the spokes is a bit pointless if one has to travel to Newcastle in order to get from one to the other whereas having the direct link between Durham and Consett makes the wheel (or network) work as it should. 

Now, obviously there is a link between Consett and Durham in the form of the X5/X15 (and to a lesser extent, the 16), but there are examples where that link is almost non-existent. 

For example, in the GNE dominated area of Derwentside, the villages of Rowlands Gill and Burnopfield lie approximately one mile from each other. Now, there is a limited link between the two villages in the form of the R5, but it only runs between 0900 and 1600 Mon-Sat (I think) which means if one wishes to travel outside of those times across a relatively short distance, it would involve either walking (about 20-30 mins depending on fitness), or getting on a bus to Metrocentre (about 10-15 minutes), then getting the bus from Metrocentre to Burnopfield (about 30 minutes). And that's two buses you need. So travelling down the spoke to the hub, then from the hub back up a neighbouring spoke, not only costs you more money, but also time.

Of course, if you had a car, the journey takes less than 5 minutes, so why use the bus at all? 

This is where, I think, the hub and spoke model largely fails as communities which should be connected by public transport links become isolated from one another.

(30 Oct 2023, 9:32 am)Andreos1 wrote I was trying to picture the GNE network as Hub & Spoke and all I kept imagining, was this: 

If anyone can actually do some work or an illustration to give a rough idea of what the network looks like, I'm sure it would be appreciated by many on here.

(30 Oct 2023, 9:54 am)MurdnunoC wrote There are probably similar examples across the networks of Stagecoach and Arriva too. 

One that immediately springs to mind, which also touches upon your favourite criticism of bus companies not being more proactive in creating links between new housing developments and out-of-town shopping centres, is that there is no direct bus between Scotswood/Denton Burn/Slatyford and Kingston Park.   

This link has existed in the past. When TWOC (Tyne and Wear Omnibus Company, for those who don't know) was encroaching upon the business of Busways, the TWOC duplication of the 1 was extended from Slatyford, up Binswood Avenie and Sunnyway into Blakelaw then onto Kingston Park. I'm pretty sure the Busways 1 was extended shortly afterwards.  In later years, Scotswood had the 17 which continued towards Kingston Park.

To me, these are the links bus companies should be re-evaluating, rather than giving a token service to an new estate on the edge of town where residents are probably not purchasing properties on the strength of the local bus services.

(30 Oct 2023, 9:54 am)MurdnunoC wrote There are probably similar examples across the networks of Stagecoach and Arriva too. 

One that immediately springs to mind, which also touches upon your favourite criticism of bus companies not being more proactive in creating links between new housing developments and out-of-town shopping centres, is that there is no direct bus between Scotswood/Denton Burn/Slatyford and Kingston Park.  

This link has existed in the past. When TWOC (Tyne and Wear Omnibus Company, for those who don't know) was encroaching upon the business of Busways, the TWOC duplication of the 1 was extended from Slatyford, up Binswood Avenie and Sunnyway into Blakelaw then onto Kingston Park. I'm pretty sure the Busways 1 was extended shortly afterwards.  In later years, Scotswood had the 17 which continued towards Kingston Park.

To me, these are the links bus companies should be re-evaluating, rather than giving a token service to an new estate on the edge of town where residents are probably not purchasing properties on the strength of the local bus services.

(30 Oct 2023, 10:24 am)Storx wrote It's a problem with the whole North East this and ironically it's a problem in London aswell.

There is a real problem with transport which goes around places. Everything is designed that everyone wants to go to Sunderland, Newcastle or Gateshead centre but if you actually want to commute around the outside it's near impossible without a detour.

For the hub and spoke map someone mentioned here you go, coloured routes being pretty much the only routes 'going around'. The red arrow corridors are near impossible to commute currently, and it's not as if there's no reason to be doing them as the red dots are arguably the major employment sites in Tyne and Wear.



Not ironic that arrows pretty much follow the corridor of the A1 and A19 aswell, the two busiest roads in the area. 

(30 Oct 2023, 11:05 am)Andreos1 wrote You're a good un. 

Fancy doing one for County Durham?

It's absolutely crazy that there's not an operator able to or capable of joining the dots here.

(30 Oct 2023, 11:12 am)Storx wrote I tried there first and gave up, completely lost track of which way the Consett and Washington routes go nowadays as they've changed so much so it ended up looking like some got angry and scribbled lines all over the place . 

Reason I omitted Washington and Houghton aswell ngl.

(30 Oct 2023, 11:13 am)Ambassador wrote That map is really interesting and does reinforce the issues .

I'm doing some work on Colleague Commutes at the moment and we have some backup emergency sites (that we normally use for power or data loss etc) that we've activated for colleagues in the area to use down at Team Valley around Kingsway North during the strikes and also it's handily placed around our annual testing.

What was quite stark is that unless you stick to the workers services which don't really work around modern shift patterns, it's quicker to commute via bus to Newcastle from Birtley than it is to Kingsway North - you're looking roughly at 30 mins for the former and anywhere between 35-52 minutes for the Valley commute

A journey of around 3 miles that can be made by car in 8 minutes to one of the major employee centres in the region

(30 Oct 2023, 11:13 am)Ambassador wrote That map is really interesting and does reinforce the issues .

I'm doing some work on Colleague Commutes at the moment and we have some backup emergency sites (that we normally use for power or data loss etc) that we've activated for colleagues in the area to use down at Team Valley around Kingsway North during the strikes and also it's handily placed around our annual testing.

What was quite stark is that unless you stick to the workers services which don't really work around modern shift patterns, it's quicker to commute via bus to Newcastle from Birtley than it is to Kingsway North - you're looking roughly at 30 mins for the former and anywhere between 35-52 minutes for the Valley commute

A journey of around 3 miles that can be made by car in 8 minutes to one of the major employee centres in the region

(30 Oct 2023, 11:12 am)Storx wrote I tried there first and gave up, completely lost track of which way the Consett and Washington routes go nowadays as they've changed so much so it ended up looking like some got angry and scribbled lines all over the place .

Reason I omitted Washington and Houghton aswell ngl.

(30 Oct 2023, 11:37 am)Adrian wrote Here's a rough sketch of the 50 route:

(30 Oct 2023, 11:37 am)MurdnunoC wrote And because of my natural proclivity to provide a historical perspective. Here are some maps covering Newcastle and Gateshead from 1981 and 1986 respectively







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(Re-edited because the images sent from Tapatalk weren't the best)