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+--- Thread: Reversing the decline in passenger numbers (/showthread.php?tid=2207)
RE: The decline in passenger numbers - streetdeckfan - 02 Jan 2020
(02 Jan 2020, 2:47 pm)Andreos1 wrote https://twitter.com/alextransdev/status/1210500469673607169?s=19
An interesting thread regarding Sunday services within Harrogate.
I think the issue is that operators are still treating Sundays as if everybody just stays stays at home and watches Songs of Praise, when in reality for most people now a Sunday is just a normal day (The same reason I think we need the Sunday Trading Act abolished)
On a Sunday, the shops at Tindale Crescent are absolutely packed, yet GNE don't bring the X21 down here on a Sunday. It's very rare to find any shops that aren't open on Sundays now, so how are people supposed to get to work? It's alright running services at a lower frequency, but not running services at all on a Sunday makes no sense to me
I was also very surprised to find out that the Durham P&R doesn't operate at all on a Sunday!
Regarding the free transport, the only reason it's viable for them is because they're running electrics with very low running costs. The sponsors they have are probably contributing a lot less than you think. I'd imagine their main cost on a Sunday would actually be the drivers
RE: The decline in passenger numbers - Andreos1 - 28 Jan 2020
https://twitter.com/ChronicleLive/status/1222067033124278272?s=19
Interesting read and interesting comments.
The decline in passenger numbers - streetdeckfan - 28 Jan 2020
Obviously price is a factor, depending on your journey it can vary wildly (and as i commented elsewhere, if you have to make a change the prices go up exponentially, unless you have a day ticket)
For me, a bus is far, far cheaper than car. £95 a month (it could be £68 if I was willing to use the app, which I'm not) is a bargain in my opinion for a month of unlimited travel on GNE (except X9/X10)
But for shorter journeys, the price of a day ticket is absolutely off putting. And as I've also brought up several times (and have been told by MG that they're 'looking in to it') is the lack of multi operator tickets in County Durham!
Sent from my LM-G710 using Tapatalk
RE: The decline in passenger numbers - BusLoverMum - 28 Jan 2020
(28 Jan 2020, 2:20 pm)Andreos1 wrote https://twitter.com/ChronicleLive/status/1222067033124278272?s=19And a Stagecoach Hull bus to illustrate it.
Interesting read and interesting comments.
RE: The decline in passenger numbers - streetdeckfan - 28 Jan 2020
(28 Jan 2020, 7:42 pm)BusLoverMum wrote And a Stagecoach Hull bus to illustrate it.
Would you expect anything less from The Chronicle?
RE: The decline in passenger numbers - Rob44 - 02 Feb 2020
The comments Re 57 not stopping on Jackson street are spot on. Its a pain in the ass having to walk up from the Metropole to the interchange when you've had one to many!
RE: The decline in passenger numbers - BusLoverMum - 15 Mar 2020
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-51815726
More than. 1.3 million people live 2km or more from a bus stop with a regular service. This data has been collated for BBC's panorama, tomorrow might at 8:30.
RE: The decline in passenger numbers - Andreos1 - 15 Mar 2020
(15 Mar 2020, 8:41 am)BusLoverMum wrote https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-51815726
More than. 1.3 million people live 2km or more from a bus stop with a regular service. This data has been collated for BBC's panorama, tomorrow night at 8:30.
I've literally just been reading this.
Further in to the article, is a section showing this graph!
Scary stuff.
RE: The decline in passenger numbers - BusLoverMum - 15 Mar 2020
(15 Mar 2020, 9:16 am)Andreos1 wrote I've literally just been reading this.It's quite startling, isn't it? And it's probably not one single issue. The cost will be a factor. People aren't going to pay £7+ return for a food shop when they have a £40 weekly budget and can share a taxi for much less and not have to juggle bags. People aren't going to take a trip out to a bigger town for a nice change when their hourly bus sometimes doesn't show up. People aren't going to take the bus to work when they work shifts and their evening services have been cut. My parents are in the 1.3 million after losing their bus to Hull, so they're not going to catch the bus, either, unless enough other people want to use the dial A bus.
Further in to the article, is a section showing this graph!
Scary stuff.
RE: The decline in passenger numbers - col87 - 19 Apr 2020
I think this is a double edged sword of getting people on the bus and passengers can be broken down into 3 groups although some overlap.
1 Enthusiasts. We all like buses on here so we will go on one whenever we can despite any alternatives there is because it's a hobby to us. We try getting certain buses or having days out on them.
2 People who don't have a car. They have no choice but to use the bus. They don't care if it an 04 plate Dennis Dart or 69 plate Streetdeck they want to get from A to B as quick as possible. WiFi and charger points are just a bonus.
3 People who can drive and using bus as a last resort. It's these people the company need to try encourage to keep using the bus.
It's this group what need the most encouragement. Go North East having a big picture on the back of the street decks showing people standing won't encourage people to use the bus. Neither does covering the Windows with pointless branding ( smaller companies doing it for advertising purposes to get revenue I can understand). The way to encourage people to use the bus more is having services that people want and getting them there as quick as possible. Why would people in Elwick or stillington who have a car want to use the bus at all when none of the company's can be bothered to serve their area. A family who parents don't work why would they get bus when it cheaper for them to use a taxi. The only way to get people who don't already regularly use the bus and keep people who are is by making sure every area has at least a semi regular service and cheap fares along with journeys been as quick as possible. Obviously the problem is most companies won't do that because they are a businesses and won't serve anywhere unless they know they can make money or get a subsidy for it. They buy the buses so can cover the Windows if they want because the management like having a nice shiny new branding on the bus and the first two groups will use the bus either way. So unless bus companies start providing services for people instead of profit or councils find the money to subsidise services again passengers are likely to stay the same or keep dropping no matter how many new buses have WiFi charger points and next stop announcements.
RE: The decline in passenger numbers - Andreos1 - 25 Apr 2020
A study carried out by a transport consultancy has found that there will be a significant drop in passenger numbers once this Covid19 stuff is over.
No idea on the sample size used (remember that one eezypeazy?), but it will be interesting to see if their results are replicated in real life.
Edit: found the source http://www.passengertransport.co.uk/2020/04/public-transport-users-could-make-fewer-trips/
RE: The decline in passenger numbers - BusLoverMum - 25 Apr 2020
(25 Apr 2020, 10:00 am)Andreos1 wrote A study carried out by a transport consultancy has found that there will be a significant drop in passenger numbers once this Covid19 stuff is over.Well, in the next year or so, which is realistically how long we have before the end has any chance of being in sight, many people will be finding alternative transport for work, shopping, etc.
No idea on the sample size used (remember that one eezypeazy?), but it will be interesting to see if their results are replicated in real life.
Edit: found the source http://www.passengertransport.co.uk/2020/04/public-transport-users-could-make-fewer-trips/
Supermarkets that have initially struggled with delivery capacity will have it well and truly sorted, as will high street retailers with previously half arsed online presence.
A small proportion of people are never leaving the house ever again.
RE: The decline in passenger numbers - citaro5284 - 28 Apr 2020
Roger talks about the latest satisfaction figures
https://busandtrainuser.com/2020/04/28/focus-on-bus-satisfaction/
RE: The decline in passenger numbers - Andreos1 - 04 May 2020
(25 Apr 2020, 10:41 pm)BusLoverMum wrote Well, in the next year or so, which is realistically how long we have before the end has any chance of being in sight, many people will be finding alternative transport for work, shopping, etc.
Supermarkets that have initially struggled with delivery capacity will have it well and truly sorted, as will high street retailers with previously half arsed online presence.
A small proportion of people are never leaving the house ever again.
Whilst operators could never have factored anything like the current situation in to their forecasts, it makes you wonder what they could do to halt what was already a falling customer base.
The industry needs to adapt and improve its pricing structure for those who use the bus infrequently.
I'd argue they were ignored, a victim of circumstance or even taken advantage of in the past. That can't continue going forward.
RE: The decline in passenger numbers - Andreos1 - 08 Dec 2020
http://www.movingforwardtogether.uk/latest-news/passenger-led-recovery/
The CPT are pushing for more investment of taxpayers money for a 'passenger led recovery'.
If ever there was a contradiction in terms, it's that one.
A passenger led recovery isn't passenger led, if it's funded by the taxpayer.
An operator led recovery would be one I would be in favour of.
Actual ownership and taking responsibility for operating the services they're supposed to and attracting passengers like they're supposed to.
Or am I missing something glaringly obvious here?
RE: The decline in passenger numbers - IRHardy - 08 Dec 2020
(08 Dec 2020, 1:06 pm)Andreos1 wrote http://www.movingforwardtogether.uk/latest-news/passenger-led-recovery/I think that the problem is that during the first COVID lockdown, the Government and the media did a really good job of stirring people into a frenzy, making them think that it is not safe to go outside and it is not safe to use public transport.
The CPT are pushing for more investment of taxpayers money for a 'passenger led recovery'.
If ever there was a contradiction in terms, it's that one.
A passenger led recovery isn't passenger led, if it's funded by the taxpayer.
An operator led recovery would be one I would be in favour of.
Actual ownership and taking responsibility for operating the services they're supposed to and attracting passengers like they're supposed to.
Or am I missing something glaringly obvious here?
Therefore there are a lot of people who still feel scared about using public transport even though the messaging has changed.
These people will not return to using public transport no matter what the operators do, even if the operators offered free travel, so the government needs to get public transport out of the hole that the government created by its messaging (well actually, they need to sort out the whole country and the economy, but as this is a public transport forum, lets not go there).
RE: The decline in passenger numbers - Andreos1 - 08 Dec 2020
(08 Dec 2020, 5:33 pm)IRHardy wrote I think that the problem is that during the first COVID lockdown, the Government and the media did a really good job of stirring people into a frenzy, making them think that it is not safe to go outside and it is not safe to use public transport.
Therefore there are a lot of people who still feel scared about using public transport even though the messaging has changed.
These people will not return to using public transport no matter what the operators do, even if the operators offered free travel, so the government needs to get public transport out of the hole that the government created by its messaging (well actually, they need to sort out the whole country and the economy, but as this is a public transport forum, lets not go there).
Whatever ambitions of grandeur they have or however big their begging bowl is, the fact is the numbers have been dropping for the last 34 years.
This year was just a little bit more spectacular than previous for obvious reasons.
Whilst I agree that numbers have been low across 2020 for a reason, I do think operators need to take some responsibility for their marketing and pricing, taking ownership of an issue which has affected many industries and organisations across the country. Why should the multi-million pound bus industry be the one to get all these bailouts, funding and grants?
I don't think the lines about the environment, regeneration and being key to the economy recovering is nothing more than patter to be honest. There is no way all of those things are a priority. The shareholders are.
These operators are private companies who try to make money for their shareholders. They want to be de-regulated, running things their own way - but want local and national governments to help them along the way, by chucking a few quid their way.
It stinks of hypocrisy imo and this is just another example of that hypocrisy.
There was discussion elsewhere in the forum about the 21 and X20 being stuck in retail park traffic and obviously we've seen many examples over the years of the 93/94 being stuck in associated shopping traffic.
I won't go in to the ins and outs of what was said, but if the operators aren't offering a viable alternative to the car, then those people in the car won't make the switch.
Operators improving the network and sending buses through the same areas the cars are coming from will encourage punters to switch their mode of transport.
If for example it's found the residents of Lanchester prefer Sainsburys at the Arnison to Tesco at Delves and the switch to public transport is an option - then that's on the operator to fund and ensure commercial viability.
Ditto those in Lobley Hill who prefer a mooch around Retail World (contributing to the delays with 93/94) on a Saturday as opposed to Gateshead High Street.
It's not local or national governments job to fund a service, kick-start a route or offer attractive pricing.
RE: The decline in passenger numbers - tvd - 09 Dec 2020
Boris has plans to ban the sale of new petrol cars within 10 years, as part of his green agenda, and force motorists to buy electric vehicles.
I'm guessing these plans will be quietly forgotten as people realise all the costs and problems associated with this, but if we assume it does happen, it will need levels of public transport investment and subsidies on a level never seen before, as millions of motorists will be unable to afford cars.
Outside of the biggest cities, we'll need massive spending on more bus routes and services, demand responsive transport and so on, if people are going to be able to commute to and from work.
Like I said, Im sure the plans wont happen due to the logistics and costs nightmare, but interesting to think how much extra public transport would be needed for such an event .
RE: The decline in passenger numbers - Andreos1 - 09 Dec 2020
(09 Dec 2020, 1:03 pm)tvd wrote Boris has plans to ban the sale of new petrol cars within 10 years, as part of his green agenda, and force motorists to buy electric vehicles.
I'm guessing these plans will be quietly forgotten as people realise all the costs and problems associated with this, but if we assume it does happen, it will need levels of public transport investment and subsidies on a level never seen before, as millions of motorists will be unable to afford cars.
Outside of the biggest cities, we'll need massive spending on more bus routes and services, demand responsive transport and so on, if people are going to be able to commute to and from work.
Like I said, Im sure the plans wont happen due to the logistics and costs nightmare, but interesting to think how much extra public transport would be needed for such an event .
Would extra public transport be needed on such a bigger scale? Or could the resource be used in a more efficient and effective manner, so that demand and flows are met?
RE: The decline in passenger numbers - tvd - 09 Dec 2020
Some of the negatives of bus travel even now are that the bus doesn’t go to where people want to go, they’re too infrequent, don’t run on an evening or on a Sunday, have to change buses.. and so on.
If it ever came to be that millions of people couldn’t afford cars, without huge and expensive changes, many people wouldn’t be able to travel to work, particularly in lower paid jobs.
In those circumstances it would be virtually impossible to connect all local towns and villages in any local area with a realistically good enough bus service.
For most parts of the country I would guess a comprehensive local demand responsive transport network would have to be in place, like a bigger and better version of our Tees Flex.
RE: The decline in passenger numbers - Andreos1 - 09 Dec 2020
(09 Dec 2020, 2:22 pm)tvd wrote Some of the negatives of bus travel even now are that the bus doesn’t go to where people want to go, they’re too infrequent, don’t run on an evening or on a Sunday, have to change buses.. and so on.
If it ever came to be that millions of people couldn’t afford cars, without huge and expensive changes, many people wouldn’t be able to travel to work, particularly in lower paid jobs.
In those circumstances it would be virtually impossible to connect all local towns and villages in any local area with a realistically good enough bus service.
For most parts of the country I would guess a comprehensive local demand responsive transport network would have to be in place, like a bigger and better version of our Tees Flex.
I agree that a demand responsive could be an option, although I don't know if an entire network across a wider scale could be sustainable.
I do think the current network and resource could be used more effectively and efficiently though.
Using Lanchester as an example - X5/15 follow the same route, bar a short section nearer Consett. Could one divert up to serve Witton Gilbert, Sacriston and the Arnison? All of a sudden the market in the Lanchester area is opened up to a retail park and however number of cars are potentially taken off the road.
The 21, X21 and 50 all operate between Chester and Durham and essentially serve the same audience. You've then got the X20 dropping in half-way along and that pattern continues all the way to Durham.
Appreciate that's a small section of 4 routes, but do they really need that sort of intensity following a similar route between Chester/Plawsworth and Durham? Particularly when the X12, 62 and 64 are in the mix too.
Then the operators complain about the traffic. Is it any wonder there's traffic, when you can't get a bus unless you live on a very small corridor?
There's many other examples which could be used.
RE: The decline in passenger numbers - Andreos1 - 13 Jan 2021
https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/public-transport-privatisation-poverty-w-special-guest-philip-alston-tickets-132706307137
Free online event relating to poor bus provision, privatisation and poverty. Might see you there!
RE: The decline in passenger numbers - Andreos1 - 29 Jan 2021
I was looking for some inspiration relating to some work I'm doing at the moment.
Came across this quote from Eric Ries and couldn't help but smile.
So true.
RE: The decline in passenger numbers - Andreos1 - 25 Feb 2021
https://www.clydebankpost.co.uk/news/19111894.garscadden-councillor-eva-murray-claims-private-bus-firms-failing-city/
Private bus firms failing city.
RE: The decline in passenger numbers - Andreos1 - 11 Apr 2021
https://takeaction.cpre.org.uk/page/74256/petition/1?ea.tracking.id=FacebookBanner2SharingBCountryTD2&utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=Banner2SharingBCountry&utm_campaign=TD2&fbclid=IwAR1FslWfqMH12Y8svTRtOXOpE1ZbyhoLDa-xOknKccMGJHZqegnuTM8s4mk
An interesting petition being undertaken.
Whilst I agree with the principle of it, I'm not sure that it is anyone's responsibility to fund - other than the operators (under current legislation).
RE: The decline in passenger numbers - Andreos1 - 19 Jul 2021
https://morningstaronline.co.uk/article/b/privatised-bus-system-failing-passengers-and-undermining-rights
When the UN state that privatisation is failing passengers, you know there's something up.
Will try and find the full report.
RE: The decline in passenger numbers - Andreos1 - 24 Jul 2021
https://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/19465956.parents-anger-st-leonards-school-doubles-bus-costs/
'but, but, but... Priority measures! We need priority measures!'.
Which bus operator will bleat about the increase in traffic around St Leonards first?
RE: The decline in passenger numbers - DeltaMan - 24 Jul 2021
(19 Jul 2021, 5:11 pm)Andreos1 wrote https://morningstaronline.co.uk/article/b/privatised-bus-system-failing-passengers-and-undermining-rightsIt wasn't the UN though was it?
When the UN state that privatisation is failing passengers, you know there's something up.
Will try and find the full report.
RE: The decline in passenger numbers - Andreos1 - 24 Jul 2021
(24 Jul 2021, 5:27 pm)DeltaMan wrote It wasn't the UN though was it?
Oh well spotted. I obviously didn't proof read that one!
RE: The decline in passenger numbers - BusLoverMum - 24 Jul 2021
(24 Jul 2021, 3:01 pm)Andreos1 wrote https://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/19465956.parents-anger-st-leonards-school-doubles-bus-costs/I often wonder why they have stagecoach buses on some of their runs. Can't be the cheapest, surely.
'but, but, but... Priority measures! We need priority measures!'.
Which bus operator will bleat about the increase in traffic around St Leonards first?