(16 Aug 2021, 11:33 pm)DeltaMan wrote Bus operators simply don't have the resource to operate services for every possible direct journey permutation at a frequency attractive enough to get more people out of cars. A quick look at any operating companies filled account will bear that out clearly enough. 

So unless you want them to get the "begging bowl" out so they fulfil your dreams, I doubt it's going to happen......

(16 Aug 2021, 11:30 pm)streetdeckfan wrote I am well aware that the current X21 vehicles are Gemini 3s given that it's my 'local' route.

I was referring to the 67 plate StreetDecks that we also had on the X21. The Hop Tap Go liveried one (6332) spent like 99% of it's time on the X21 before going over to Consett, and with the rebrand to Xlines and the demotion of 6301-6303 (the worst in the batch apparently) to corporate, we got 6331-6333 branded into X21. 

The difference between the 16 plates and the 67 plates was massive, the 67 plates were smoother, quieter and had way less rattles.

Contrast that with the 67 plate B5s, they're bloody awful. They have more rattles than Arriva's E400s. The only upside to getting the B5s was they are better on the motorway, but it's only a relatively short section of the route so overall they're a downgrade in my opinion.

Of the few times that I've used 6334/5, I've found them better than the 67 plates, which considering they're 3-4 years older really says something!

As I said further up, I have nothing against an Omnidekka, in fact I quite like them. If they did a bit of a refresh inside a couple of them, installing USB ports and some proper seats, I wouldn't mind doing the near 2-hour journey in one.

(16 Aug 2021, 11:33 pm)DeltaMan wrote Bus operators simply don't have the resource to operate services for every possible direct journey permutation at a frequency attractive enough to get more people out of cars. A quick look at any operating companies filled account will bear that out clearly enough. 

So unless you want them to get the "begging bowl" out so they fulfil your dreams, I doubt it's going to happen......

(16 Aug 2021, 7:17 pm)Keeiajs wrote At the end of the day if GNE can't make it profit they remove the service, use it or lose it, it is simple business 
 and if you don't get that ur stupid I hate to say it however GNE hast to make money they have staff to pay. Not run a bus service which is bleeding money. Simple

(16 Aug 2021, 10:35 pm)Keeiajs wrote I think GNE could easily take the northumbria area, especially the area from Newcastle to Blyth. If they bought very high spec buses.

(17 Aug 2021, 8:14 am)Adrian wrote So which one is it? Your suggestion of GNE crying poverty when it comes to providing the most basic of service to a community that has no alternative, versus seemingly having a magic money tree up at Queen Street to fund 'very high spec buses' in some kind of 'takeover' of the Northumbria area.

Top marks. At least you're consistent, if nothing else. 

(17 Aug 2021, 5:58 am)MurdnunoC wrote I think the most important question is what torque setting is used to tighten the wheel-nuts on the newly branded  Red Kite Rangers  and when was it last calibrated?

Oh, and what colour and brand is the torque wrench?

(17 Aug 2021, 9:04 am)Andreos1 wrote They're away to their cross city rivals Red Kite Utd this weekend.

(17 Aug 2021, 12:03 am)streetdeckfan wrote I think the issue is less about having direct services everywhere but having services at all. There are housing estates popping up all over the place no bus services at all nearby, same with out of town retail parks. 
It's not even new estates that are the problem, my mother's house was built in the 70s and it's still a mile walk to get the bus to Durham or Bishop. There's a reason pretty much every house in the estate has at least 2 cars!

Now, granted GNE have been doing a fairly decent job recently at serving retail parks, and I think the extension of the 21 to Brandon along with also serving Arnison Centre is a fantastic idea. Same with sending the 10N (or whatever letter it is, seriously give it a different bloody number!) to Tyne View Retail Park, and the X21 to Tindale

(17 Aug 2021, 8:14 am)Adrian wrote So which one is it? Your suggestion of GNE crying poverty when it comes to providing the most basic of service to a community that has no alternative, versus seemingly having a magic money tree up at Queen Street to fund 'very high spec buses' in some kind of 'takeover' of the Northumbria area.

Top marks. At least you're consistent, if nothing else. 

(17 Aug 2021, 10:33 am)Ambassador wrote Not wanting to go too off topic but the whole planning nature of estates in the UK since the 1970s has been car centric and still is. Developers gobble up rafts of old fields that have never had a service so people buying there naturally use their car - when the bus operators finally come in they find low usage is a problem (well obviously!)

(17 Aug 2021, 11:56 am)mb134 wrote Just on this, if we take the new development at Cramlington on the A1068 opposite the Snowy Owl as an example. That road has had a bus service since forever, and new stops were installed right at the start of the development. While I'm sure there are occasions of people getting on there, I've not one seen anything stop there - and while I'm not in the NE for months at a time, when I am down I use the X21/22 almost daily to get into town. 

If we then look at the current level of service past those stops:
X21/22 - every 15 minutes combined.
X9 - every 30 minutes. 

So that's a bus to town every 10 minutes or so, a bus to Cramlington and Blyth every 30 minutes, and a bus to Ashington/Bedlington every 15 minutes. Realistically, then, frequency isn't an issue here, and to be honest neither is journey time - from those stops the X9/21/22 go straight into town and have bus lanes to avoid traffic cars would face, so it's likely faster if anything. 

Advertisement? Well, possibly, but the bus stops created can hardly be missed by anyone living there, nor can the double decker buses flying past every 15 minutes. Arriva include the stop in their timetables (though not the PDF with only key timing points) "Cramlington Fisher Lane - Arcot Manor"), as do Bustimes and Google (though Google don't have the X9??). All maps show the stops in the wrong location, i.e south of the roundabout rather than north, but I don't imagine that would make a huge difference.

It seems to me like even when decent bus services are spoon fed to people in newer developments, there's little to no uptake.

(17 Aug 2021, 1:12 pm)V514DFT wrote Might be just the X21/22 up that end if what ive read is true,that Arriva are supposedly withdrawing their X9

(17 Aug 2021, 4:26 pm)peter wrote That was a mistake made by someone in the Arriva thread - it's the peak time cobalt service X6 which is being withdrawn (which I believe historically was numbered the X9)

(17 Aug 2021, 11:56 am)mb134 wrote Just on this, if we take the new development at Cramlington on the A1068 opposite the Snowy Owl as an example. That road has had a bus service since forever, and new stops were installed right at the start of the development. While I'm sure there are occasions of people getting on there, I've not one seen anything stop there - and while I'm not in the NE for months at a time, when I am down I use the X21/22 almost daily to get into town. 

If we then look at the current level of service past those stops:
X21/22 - every 15 minutes combined.
X9 - every 30 minutes. 

So that's a bus to town every 10 minutes or so, a bus to Cramlington and Blyth every 30 minutes, and a bus to Ashington/Bedlington every 15 minutes. Realistically, then, frequency isn't an issue here, and to be honest neither is journey time - from those stops the X9/21/22 go straight into town and have bus lanes to avoid traffic cars would face, so it's likely faster if anything. 

Advertisement? Well, possibly, but the bus stops created can hardly be missed by anyone living there, nor can the double decker buses flying past every 15 minutes. Arriva include the stop in their timetables (though not the PDF with only key timing points) "Cramlington Fisher Lane - Arcot Manor"), as do Bustimes and Google (though Google don't have the X9??). All maps show the stops in the wrong location, i.e south of the roundabout rather than north, but I don't imagine that would make a huge difference.

It seems to me like even when decent bus services are spoon fed to people in newer developments, there's little to no uptake.

(17 Aug 2021, 6:23 pm)Andreos1 wrote Do those services take residents to the places they need to be?
I'm thinking work, pleasure and education and of my limited knowledge of up that way - I'd say, probably not.
Despite all those bus lanes heading down the Great North Road and in to the town, I reckon a big percentage will be heading off somewhere else that doesn't involve driving through Gosforth.

(17 Aug 2021, 6:23 pm)Andreos1 wrote Do those services take residents to the places they need to be?
I'm thinking work, pleasure and education and of my limited knowledge of up that way - I'd say, probably not.
Despite all those bus lanes heading down the Great North Road and in to the town, I reckon a big percentage will be heading off somewhere else that doesn't involve driving through Gosforth.

(17 Aug 2021, 7:02 pm)MurdnunoC wrote Additionally, residents moving into that new estate must come from somewhere. Perhaps they moved from another estate where owning a car was essential for the reasons Ambassador has outlined in his previous post?

(17 Aug 2021, 11:15 am)Keeiajs wrote If you lose money you can't operate a service that is simple, but that doesn't stop you investing into new buses to try and take on your competitor. Does it.

(17 Aug 2021, 6:39 pm)Storx wrote In fairness they'd take them to most of SE Northumberland, the X21/X22 doing Bedlington, Ashington with a change at Ashington anywhere North and the X9 doing Cramlington and Blyth which are the main shopping places locally and for entertainment with a change to pretty much everywhere North of the Tyne at the Regent Centre, Gosforth, Newcastle or Cramlington (if not everywhere, struggling where you couldn't tbh and that's not doing U routes either mostly quicker than driving with the bus to Regent Centre / Metro).

There's not realistically anywhere else they could have a bus service to that they'd want to go to.

(17 Aug 2021, 7:51 pm)Adrian wrote If you lose money, you cannot operate a service? Where's that written down in legislation?   

Not all journeys of a service not being profitable does not instantly mean a business is haemorrhaging money, though I accept it means that margins aren't as tight as they potentially could be. You need to be prepared to take some hits to make money, and whilst a 71 nearly being axed or services being re-routed in Stanley might not mean a lot to you, people rely on those services and negative impact will only ever push people towards private cars or taxis. 

As others have said, enthusiasts can be too dismissive of how changes impacts others. We're supposed to be of the business of 'Bus Back Better' these days, and I'm afraid that I don't see how some of these changes fits in with that desire to grow passenger numbers.

(17 Aug 2021, 8:05 pm)Andreos1 wrote I'm thinking the Quorums, Great Parks, Cobalts and Silverlinks of the world.
Appreciate there's Cramlington Town centre nearby, there's the mainline links and the new hospital too (not familiar with the schools).

You mention changing at the Regent Centre for a variety of other places. Would that be viable for a daily commute and/or getting little Jonny to school? 

Car vs public transport and its proximity to the A1, A189 and A19, indicate to me that there's one immediate winner and unless ANE step it up (offering a viable alternative), I can't see much changing.
Particularly with all of the major supermarkets offering online delivery. Can't see that estate being made up of the bread and milk brigade.

(17 Aug 2021, 8:06 pm)Keeiajs wrote I understand how these changes can impact people, I know people they have impacted, but if that route is basically in the red a lot then sometimes especially in these times they won't be able to operate especially with how the services are these days.

(17 Aug 2021, 8:06 pm)Keeiajs wrote I understand how these changes can impact people, I know people they have impacted, but if that route is basically in the red a lot then sometimes especially in these times they won't be able to operate especially with how the services are these days.

(17 Aug 2021, 8:58 pm)Ambassador wrote and that’s the crux of the impossible problem. Private companies with shareholders running public services Those routes that can’t be commercially run are then tendered into a race to the bottom. 

(17 Aug 2021, 9:28 pm)Storx wrote Depends how you look at it though, one bus route in the red isn't the end of the world. For example let's take the 30 in Stanley. If 10 people use that bus and then connect to the X30 in Stanley then that's 10 passengers less on the X30 aswell so then that's at a loss aswell.

Another example could be now Peterlee with the loss of the 208 to Durham. Yes it might only have 10 passengers on but those 10 passengers on other days might only use the X6 to Sunderland or the X9 to Middlesbrough. Now without the link to Durham there's no purpose of using GNE and they'll just use Arriva instead aswell who offer all the links that they want further pushing the X6 into the red and it goes on, then you cut the X6 then local punters lose the quick link to Sunderland so that's more using the Arriva services. Next thing you know everything is making a loss and there's nothing left to cut.

I wouldn't be surprised if the likes of the Washington Locals, Little Coasters and 33, 38, 55 etc in Sunderland all barely make a profit (or make a loss) but they'll know that if they ditch them then the X1/2/4/8/50/78, 1/309/310/311 and 2/20/X20/35/39 would all take a massive hit as the punters will just choose Arriva or Stagecoach who offer better local links and also mostly offer the links of those services aswell which will put the whole network at a loss. Sadly every time there's network changes the same routes are fiddled around with which make them difficult to use for locals as one week it might exist, the next week it's gone which is no use when you rely on it for work. The routes around Silksworth, Howdon and the old 43/44 between Newcastle and Stanley have been particularly bad for that in recent times.

(17 Aug 2021, 9:34 pm)DeltaMan wrote I am sure nobody could accuse Reading Buses of being held hostage by shareholders, corporate higher ups or running cap in hand to the council for money (imagine that...)

And yet MG made some hefty cuts to services around an area called Caversham towards the end of his time down there, including whole Sunday services being ditched. With no shareholders to worry about, I wonder why those changes were made? Do you think it may be the same reason the changes up north are being made?

(17 Aug 2021, 9:36 pm)Keeiajs wrote I mean totally true and a good point which I never really thought of. I do think the Peterlee - Durham route will just help arriva personally I wouldn't have done that. I think the littl e coasters, and Washington Routes only make a loss on a evening as those are Nexus Supported afaik.

(17 Aug 2021, 10:31 pm)Drifter60 wrote There’s a wider sense that Go North East have ‘given up’ in the Peterlee area. The article on the GNE site mentioned Arriva twice, both in reference to cuts in services in the Peterlee area and the alternative being use a rival operator. Wingate loses both the 202 and 55, both of which provided cross Peterlee connections and now the only GNE bus will be the reintroduced 206, which replaces the 55 south of Peterlee. But offers no cross town connections. The X7 is withdrawn, meaning the X6 is left as just an hourly service - no longer ‘XLINES’ so not promoted and being hourly means it doesn’t compete as much with the Arriva 22. And as mentioned they’ve removed the Durham to Peterlee link - handing passengers who may have chose GNE straight to Arriva. Although I accept Arriva do offer 4 buses per hour to Durham from Peterlee bus station. 

They could have mitigated the changes more though and it feels like missed opportunities but I actually just wonder if GNE are cutting their loses. I’ve mentioned before that the X6 could have replaced the 202 from Peterlee to Station Town without the need to add another bus to the PVR. The X7 is withdrawn but at the same time they’ve added a new bus to Sunderland in the 62 service, which feels odd, I’m not sure who they’re expecting to use the 62 between Seaham and Sunderland? Easington and South Hetton would use the 55, Murton and Dalton Park the 61, most of Dawdon has the 60. Rather than send a new bus to Sunderland why not curtail the 62 at Seaham and have a half hourly X6 between Sunderland, Seaham, Dalton Park and Peterlee. And with Peterlee loosing their GNE service to Durham they could have promoted and timed the 55/65 to meet up in Hetton Bus Station, and promote the fact it’s more frequent than the 208 was although a change of bus is now required. Particularly for those in South Hetton and Easington Village this certainly would, or could, have mitigated the change.