(01 Sep 2019, 8:09 pm)streetdeckfan wrote

For me, travelling by bus is way cheaper than it would be in a car, especially with the distance I travel. I pay less for my bus pass than my friends pay for their insurance alone. Sure, it's not as convenient, but if you plan ahead (which I'm particularly bad at), it's not really an issue. Plus, if I need to I can always just get a lift.

The thing is, I'm not necessarily sure they want to increase the number of passengers massively. There is definitely margin to lower prices, but with more passengers comes more vehicles, and drivers, and larger depots and the costs can soon skyrocket.

I think what they've done is set the prices at a specific rate to steadily increase passengers, which is better for shareholders, because if suddenly everyone travels by bus, there's no more room for growth so investors aren't interested.

Surely if numbers are dropping, something needs to be done to arrest that drop? Regardless of how big the demand is or what the market segment is like.

In the old GAG shareholder reports, there are specific objectives about increasing passenger numbers and exploring new markets.

In a growing population and with pressure on motorists to ditch the car, the demand for public transport is only going to get bigger.

It is up to operators to meet that demand and to price it so that it becomes an attractive alternative.

It's basic economics to do so. Bleating on about priority measures is only part of the story.

I've mentioned many times in this very thread that the prices on the 20/20A and now X20 are beyond a joke.

Getting to and from the railway station in Durham by bus for a few days away (business or pleasure) isn't an attractive proposition by bus. Cost and the hike up the hill all point in a negative direction.

I stopped making that journey.

My demand is/was elastic. I've got alternatives which are cheaper.

(02 Sep 2019, 8:04 am)Andreos1 wrote

Surely if numbers are dropping, something needs to be done to arrest that drop? Regardless of how big the demand is or what the market segment is like.

In the old GAG shareholder reports, there are specific objectives about increasing passenger numbers and exploring new markets.

In a growing population and with pressure on motorists to ditch the car, the demand for public transport is only going to get bigger.

It is up to operators to meet that demand and to price it so that it becomes an attractive alternative.

It's basic economics to do so. Bleating on about priority measures is only part of the story.

I've mentioned many times in this very thread that the prices on the 20/20A and now X20 are beyond a joke.

Getting to and from the railway station in Durham by bus for a few days away (business or pleasure) isn't an attractive proposition by bus. Cost and the hike up the hill all point in a negative direction.

I stopped making that journey.

My demand is/was elastic. I've got alternatives which are cheaper.

I think all operators would rather squeeze more profit from the current " locked in passengers" than really go all out to get more.

The problems around here is the lack of any combined authority to take control of things. If you live in Teesside or inside Nexus' area then the pricing is usually fair but once you get out of it it's a joke unless there's competition Bishop -> Durham for example.

It also doesn't help that's there's absolutely no multi operator ticketing available so if you do journeys such as Seghill -> Chester-le-street you have to fork up £10.90 for a explorer ticket or pay £6.40 for an Arriva ticket plus whatever the GoNorthEast ticket is for that journey with no weekly / monthly tickets. No-one is their right mind is going to pay that and it's the same in many areas. Ponteland, Consett (2z 'co-incidently'), Chester-Le-Street, SE Northumberland, Durham, Seaham, Murton just to name a few which are on the borders and some with high car ownership. Ponteland in particular.

It doesn't help that certain bus companies take the piss with the prices of singles and returns neither when crossing boundaries. GoNorthEast and Arriva in particular. £4.50 for a single from Seghill to Newcastle yet £2.80 (I think) from Annitsford to Newcastle on the X7. £3.10 from Seaton Delaval to Northumberland Park, £1.60 from Earsdon on the 19. Sounds like it's a simular story on the 20/20A as someone has posted above.

(02 Sep 2019, 8:00 am)Rob44 wrote

Whilst i agree that using a car will work out more expensive in the short term what about situations where you need to get somewhere quick ( like a hospital A&e), pick up the daughter from a club in the town at 1 in the morning, travel to a destination that's 5 miles and 10 minutes drive away but takes 15 miles travel on the bus and due to poor connections takes almost an hour and finally getting to work when buses don't start till after 9am ( Sunday) or at all ( Christmas, boxing and new years day)? imagine paying for taxi's for all those journeys.


For me, as i've said before its no good bus travel costing the same or slightly cheaper. It needs to be a lot cheaper ..... but reading the above Im now tending to agree with Streetdeck fan... i'm not sure they want a load more passengers for the reasons above.

Something else that just come to mind. Can anyone remember when petrol was rocketing in price, would have been the late 90's early 00' i think. I was on an arriva bust and they had put signs up saying how sorry they were having to put up tickets for the 3rd time that year? Anyway i was just wondering if anyone's ticket had come down in price when petrol fell ike a stone? No? Me neither

See, I have family both in Gateshead and Bishop who are willing to give me a lift if I need it, so for the most part I don't need to worry about that.

As I pay for my ticket monthly, it works out between £3 and £3.50 per day depending on the month, and to take the car between Bishop and Gateshead would cost about £4 each way in diesel (our car averages 38mpg), so a return journey in the car is more than double what I pay for the bus. So for me it's very much not worth having a car, even if I do have to take the odd taxi.

Plus because I'm young, if I had a car the insurance would be astronomical and would have to drive something like a Fiesta or Corsa, which is far too claustrophobic for me since we've always had big cars.

Plus, another factor for me preferring to get the bus is the fact that I can work on the bus, sure it takes 2 hours instead of 40 minutes, but I can work for those 2 hours instead of 'wasting' the 40 minutes in the car

(02 Sep 2019, 11:57 am)Storx wrote

The problems around here is the lack of any combined authority to take control of things. If you live in Teesside or inside Nexus' area then the pricing is usually fair but once you get out of it it's a joke unless there's competition Bishop -> Durham for example.

It also doesn't help that's there's absolutely no multi operator ticketing available so if you do journeys such as Seghill -> Chester-le-street you have to fork up £10.90 for a explorer ticket or pay £6.40 for an Arriva ticket plus whatever the GoNorthEast ticket is for that journey with no weekly / monthly tickets. No-one is their right mind is going to pay that and it's the same in many areas. Ponteland, Consett (2z 'co-incidently'), Chester-Le-Street, SE Northumberland, Durham, Seaham, Murton just to name a few which are on the borders and some with high car ownership. Ponteland in particular.

It doesn't help that certain bus companies take the piss with the prices of singles and returns neither when crossing boundaries. GoNorthEast and Arriva in particular. £4.50 for a single from Seghill to Newcastle yet £2.80 (I think) from Annitsford to Newcastle on the X7. £3.10 from Seaton Delaval to Northumberland Park, £1.60 from Earsdon on the 19. Sounds like it's a simular story on the 20/20A as someone has posted above.

The point about the multi operator ticket is one that I bring up all the time.

Travelling between between Bishop and Gateshead is fine during the day since the X21 runs to Tindale, but after 5pm the X21 terminates at Bishop Bus Station so to get to Tindale I need to pay for an Arriva ticket.

It just seems stupid to me that with the latest changes, the latest I can leave Newcastle and get to Tindale (well, the bottom of Woodhouse is close enough) is 4pm, last week it was 5pm which was reasonable, but still too early for people who actually work in Newcastle

(02 Sep 2019, 1:02 pm)streetdeckfan wrote

See, I have family both in Gateshead and Bishop who are willing to give me a lift if I need it, so for the most part I don't need to worry about that.

As I pay for my ticket monthly, it works out between £3 and £3.50 per day depending on the month, and to take the car between Bishop and Gateshead would cost about £4 each way in diesel (our car averages 38mpg), so a return journey in the car is more than double what I pay for the bus. So for me it's very much not worth having a car, even if I do have to take the odd taxi.

Plus because I'm young, if I had a car the insurance would be astronomical and would have to drive something like a Fiesta or Corsa, which is far too claustrophobic for me since we've always had big cars.

Plus, another factor for me preferring to get the bus is the fact that I can work on the bus, sure it takes 2 hours instead of 40 minutes, but I can work for those 2 hours instead of 'wasting' the 40 minutes in the car

Some good positives to using the bus but positives in me using my car are door to work. no waiting at bus stops in the rain..... car turning up and being able to get a seat.  As for the work you get done on the bus in the time gain using the car i get to do that work .... at work... in a nice warm office with a hot cup of coffee with no swearing, loud music or bloody awful ring tones going off!

Like i said i'm not against the bus but it needs to be substantially cheaper to temp me ( and im a bus fan) onto it. more carrot and less stick.

(02 Sep 2019, 2:50 pm)Rob44 wrote

Some good positives to using the bus but positives in me using my car are door to work. no waiting at bus stops in the rain..... car turning up and being able to get a seat.  As for the work you get done on the bus in the time gain using the car i get to do that work .... at work... in a nice warm office with a hot cup of coffee with no swearing, loud music or bloody awful ring tones going off!

Like i said i'm not against the bus but it needs to be substantially cheaper to temp me ( and im a bus fan) onto it. more carrot and less stick.

I suppose it really does depend on what work you do and what route you'll be using. I'm fortunate enough to have the bus stop less than a minute walk from my front door wherever I am. I also spend most of my time working from home, except from when I have to go to meetings,

The X21, as long as you time it right, is actually a nice quiet place to work, with heating during the winter, and air conditioning during the summer! It's especially nice on a night when you've got the whole upstairs to yourself!

For me the cost savings of using a bus vastly outweighs the convenience of using a car, but I suppose that totally depends on your personal circumstances.

(02 Sep 2019, 8:14 am)Rob44 wrote

I think all operators would rather squeeze more profit from the current " locked in passengers" than really go all out to get more.

Quite possibly, but there will be some give and there will be those who find it easier, cheaper and quicker to driver. The inelastic customers can quickly become elastic ones when circumstances change.

It costs more to get a new customer, than it does to keep an existing one.

(02 Sep 2019, 11:57 am)Storx wrote

The problems around here is the lack of any combined authority to take control of things. If you live in Teesside or inside Nexus' area then the pricing is usually fair but once you get out of it it's a joke unless there's competition Bishop -> Durham for example.

It also doesn't help that's there's absolutely no multi operator ticketing available so if you do journeys such as Seghill -> Chester-le-street you have to fork up £10.90 for a explorer ticket or pay £6.40 for an Arriva ticket plus whatever the GoNorthEast ticket is for that journey with no weekly / monthly tickets. No-one is their right mind is going to pay that and it's the same in many areas. Ponteland, Consett (2z 'co-incidently'), Chester-Le-Street, SE Northumberland, Durham, Seaham, Murton just to name a few which are on the borders and some with high car ownership. Ponteland in particular.

It doesn't help that certain bus companies take the piss with the prices of singles and returns neither when crossing boundaries. GoNorthEast and Arriva in particular. £4.50 for a single from Seghill to Newcastle yet £2.80 (I think) from Annitsford to Newcastle on the X7. £3.10 from Seaton Delaval to Northumberland Park, £1.60 from Earsdon on the 19. Sounds like it's a simular story on the 20/20A as someone has posted above.

NECA took over control from the TWITA, but the reach still doesn't seem to have got any further than the old offering and quite a bit of the transport policy seems to be devolved to some of the LA's.

QCS may have fixed that problem.

The prices you mention are interesting.

It doesn't seem two minutes ago, when I first brought the ridiculous fare system on the 20's to the forums attention. That was when a single fare between Durham and Houghton was a few pence shy of £4.

It is now just shy of £5.

A return ticket is £6.90.

A weekly ticket on the app is £25. Ideal for commuters, but no good to those who use the bus once or twice a week (in my case this was usually a return, but spread out over a few days).

There's a market out there, that is being ignored and/or exploited. I can't decide which.

In an industry that is seeing the bums on the seats fall, I find it extraordinary that nothing is apparently being done about the pricing structure or anamolies like we have both described.

(02 Sep 2019, 5:30 pm)Andreos1 wrote

Quite possibly, but there will be some give and there will be those who find it easier, cheaper and quicker to driver. The inelastic customers can quickly become elastic ones when circumstances change.

It costs more to get a new customer, than it does to keep an existing one.

NECA took over control from the TWITA, but the reach still doesn't seem to have got any further than the old offering and quite a bit of the transport policy seems to be devolved to some of the LA's.

QCS may have fixed that problem.

The prices you mention are interesting.

It doesn't seem two minutes ago, when I first brought the ridiculous fare system on the 20's to the forums attention. That was when a single fare between Durham and Houghton was a few pence shy of £4.

It is now just shy of £5.

A return ticket is £6.90.

A weekly ticket on the app is £25. Ideal for commuters, but no good to those who use the bus once or twice a week (in my case this was usually a return, but spread out over a few days).

There's a market out there, that is being ignored and/or exploited. I can't decide which.

In an industry that is seeing the bums on the seats fall, I find it extraordinary that nothing is apparently being done about the pricing structure or anamolies like we have both described.

Hopefully as it would improve it massively imo.

Personally I always thought it was down to the transfares with the metro and it effectively causing a cap on the max they could charge however when your cross the boundary they basically have a free for all and abuse it.

Some anomolies on the 20 though mind just looking at the prices, £4.60 for a single from Houghton to South Shields yet it's £3.70 for a two zone transfare for example. However in general they tend to be under the transfare. £3.60 East Rainton to Sunderland vs £4.60 to Durham for example.

Whatever it is it's delibrate (I'm bored tonight and was curious) and it's the same all over when crossing boundaries:

X45 Newcastle to Hamsterley £3.60 a extra on mile or so to Ebchester it's now £5.30
28 Newcastle to Birtley is £3.10 then to Ouston Crossroads it's now £4.60
55 Houghton to Easington Lane £2.10 but to South Hetton it's £3.60
19 Northumberland Park to Holywell £1.70 but to Seaton Delaval £3.10
20 Houghton to East Rainton £1.70 but to West Rainton it's now £3.10

(02 Sep 2019, 9:15 pm)Storx wrote

Hopefully as it would improve it massively imo.

Personally I always thought it was down to the transfares with the metro and it effectively causing a cap on the max they could charge however when your cross the boundary they basically have a free for all and abuse it.

Some anomolies on the 20 though mind just looking at the prices, £4.60 for a single from Houghton to South Shields yet it's £3.70 for a two zone transfare for example. However in general they tend to be under the transfare. £3.60 East Rainton to Sunderland vs £4.60 to Durham for example.

Whatever it is it's delibrate (I'm bored tonight and was curious) and it's the same all over when crossing boundaries:

X45 Newcastle to Hamsterley £3.60 a extra on mile or so to Ebchester it's now £5.30
28 Newcastle to Birtley is £3.10 then to Ouston Crossroads it's now £4.60
55 Houghton to Easington Lane £2.10 but to South Hetton it's £3.60
19 Northumberland Park to Holywell £1.70 but to Seaton Delaval £3.10
20 Houghton to East Rainton £1.70 but to West Rainton it's now £3.10

Some of those fares are quite frankly shocking.

Increasing massively because of a change in LA.

I wonder how many of these cross-county fares are a legacy of pre-86 structures? The above inflation fares obviously are, but I can't think of any other reasons as to why it costs money to cross an arbitrary county boundary, dreamt up by a suit 40 odd years ago when T&W was invented.

One fare that often annoys/amuses me is that of the 71 between Houghton and Chester.

Single fare: £3.60

Return fare: £6.70

Yet, they have the gaul to constantly change, revise and update the service cos the predecessor didn't work the way they want it.

(02 Sep 2019, 9:15 pm)Storx wrote

Hopefully as it would improve it massively imo.

Personally I always thought it was down to the transfares with the metro and it effectively causing a cap on the max they could charge however when your cross the boundary they basically have a free for all and abuse it.

Some anomolies on the 20 though mind just looking at the prices, £4.60 for a single from Houghton to South Shields yet it's £3.70 for a two zone transfare for example. However in general they tend to be under the transfare. £3.60 East Rainton to Sunderland vs £4.60 to Durham for example.

Whatever it is it's delibrate (I'm bored tonight and was curious) and it's the same all over when crossing boundaries:

X45 Newcastle to Hamsterley £3.60 a extra on mile or so to Ebchester it's now £5.30
28 Newcastle to Birtley is £3.10 then to Ouston Crossroads it's now £4.60
55 Houghton to Easington Lane £2.10 but to South Hetton it's £3.60
19 Northumberland Park to Holywell £1.70 but to Seaton Delaval £3.10
20 Houghton to East Rainton £1.70 but to West Rainton it's now £3.10

That's another thing that gets me, on the X21, it's £4.60 from Newcastle to Durham, but to Nevilles Cross it's £5.30, but then to Tindale Crescent it's also £5.30

And also, even though the single ticket on your X45 example and the X21 to Tindale are the same price at £5.30, the return ticket for the X45 is £7.00 and the X21 is only £6.50.

But then again, the X-Lines X21 saver is only £6.30, so it's actually more expensive to get a return than it is for a day ticket

(12 Sep 2019, 8:15 am)LeeCalder wrote There's a lot of noise on Facebook from unhappy parent's regarding the new Under-25 fares.

I kind of agree with them, they aren't going to want their 15 year old son/daughter carrying their passport around with them.

In my opinion, GNE should be offering an ID card, for the cost of £5 maybe.

Surely that'd be the logical thing to do!

They used to do exactly that! Back in my day, when they actually bothered with The Key, I had a Key card with my picture on it to prove that I was eligible for the ticket

(12 Sep 2019, 9:22 am)streetdeckfan wrote

They used to do exactly that! Back in my day, when they actually bothered with The Key, I had a Key card with my picture on it to prove that I was eligible for the ticket

(12 Sep 2019, 9:25 am)LeeCalder wrote "Back in your day"! It was only four or so years ago.

Feels like a life time mate!

(12 Sep 2019, 12:50 pm)Rob44 wrote I don't normally stick up for GNE but on this i'm with them. They're offering a cheaper ticket for a particular age range... if you want to take advantage of it you need to prove you fit the criteria. I'm sure they gave several different option to do this in the bumff I was reading. Also as for carrying a passport around when i was young my mate used to have to carry theirs with them down the big market to get into bars.......... which i would say is a lot more risky of losing it than showing it to a bus driver when your sober! And to my knowledge no one ever did lose one

I applied for my provisional driving licence as soon as I could. It was an age-related "milestone" thing for me. Since turning 18, I've used it to prove my ID for shops, bars, etc. I've not lost it yet (touch wood!)

The young peoples' research carried out indicated that the majority of people in this age category carry either a provisional driving licence, passport or railcard, when they know they need to prove their age.

(12 Sep 2019, 4:16 pm)Dan wrote

I applied for my provisional driving licence as soon as I could. It was an age-related "milestone" thing for me. Since turning 18, I've used it to prove my ID for shops, bars, etc. I've not lost it yet (touch wood!)

The young peoples' research carried out indicated that the majority of people in this age category carry either a provisional driving licence, passport or railcard, when they know they need to prove their age.

I think the main thing at the minute is letting people know they need to prove their age. I think it needs to be advertised more, sure, it's mentioned, but I think there needs to be a campaign where it's the focus, rather than small print, as when I was out and about today, there were people getting on who didn't know they needed it.

Plus, I don't think the front cover of the Metro is the right place to advertise to the target audience, when was the last time you saw someone under the age of 25 read the news paper? According to Metro's statistics, only 9% of the readership is Students (which is pretty much the target audience), it's still over 11,000 a week in the North East, but not exactly great.

I'd say I fit squarely in the target market, and on social media, I've seen very little target advertising for it, so either it's not working very well, or they're not really advertising it. Even on GNE's Twitter posts about it, it's just a quick mention at the bottom "ID required for anyone 16 or over", lets be honest, nobody reads the bottom of tweets

(12 Sep 2019, 6:01 pm)idiot wrote Meanwhile 25 plus singles are scandalous

Singles definitely and returns maybe, but for regular users weekly and monthly tickets are quite good value

(12 Sep 2019, 5:28 pm)streetdeckfan wrote

I think the main thing at the minute is letting people know they need to prove their age. I think it needs to be advertised more, sure, it's mentioned, but I think there needs to be a campaign where it's the focus, rather than small print, as when I was out and about today, there were people getting on who didn't know they needed it.

Plus, I don't think the front cover of the Metro is the right place to advertise to the target audience, when was the last time you saw someone under the age of 25 read the news paper? According to Metro's statistics, only 9% of the readership is Students (which is pretty much the target audience), it's still over 11,000 a week in the North East, but not exactly great.

I'd say I fit squarely in the target market, and on social media, I've seen very little target advertising for it, so either it's not working very well, or they're not really advertising it. Even on GNE's Twitter posts about it, it's just a quick mention at the bottom "ID required for anyone 16 or over", lets be honest, nobody reads the bottom of tweets

(12 Sep 2019, 6:27 pm)Dan wrote There's a vinyl on the cab door of each bus...

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

I know, I'm talking more about them needing to know in advance.

It's no use having a vinyl on the door if they weren't told before leaving the house they needed to take ID with them

D

(12 Sep 2019, 4:16 pm)Dan wrote

I applied for my provisional driving licence as soon as I could. It was an age-related "milestone" thing for me. Since turning 18, I've used it to prove my ID for shops, bars, etc. I've not lost it yet (touch wood!)

The young peoples' research carried out indicated that the majority of people in this age category carry either a provisional driving licence, passport or railcard, when they know they need to prove their age.

I think it’s the 16/17 year olds where the biggest issue with id is.

Plus the short notice doesn’t seem to have helped, nor making people have change (for a £1.20 fare) if they haven’t got a contactless card. Promoting POP Pay As You Go could resolve this problem.

Pushing people to get a Provisional Driving Licence to use as id might also push them to learn to drive and then get a car!

(12 Sep 2019, 9:46 pm)busmanT wrote

D

I think it’s the 16/17 year olds where the biggest issue with id is.

Plus the short notice doesn’t seem to have helped, nor making people have change (for a £1.20 fare) if they haven’t got a contactless card. Promoting POP Pay As You Go could resolve this problem.

Pushing people to get a Provisional Driving Licence to use as id might also push them to learn to drive and then get a car!

(12 Sep 2019, 9:46 pm)busmanT wrote

Pushing people to get a Provisional Driving Licence to use as id might also push them to learn to drive and then get a car!

I got my provisional as soon as I could purely as a form of ID, I have no intention of learning to drive any time soon because as I explained further up, for my journeys it doesn't make financial sense to drive

(12 Sep 2019, 8:14 pm)N1cholas wrote Love it or hate the idea but the needing ID is working, just this morning a lad got on, looking at him i could tell he was early 20s, he said 1.20 please, i said you got any ID, he said no, i said where you traveling to he said eventually to durham, i said that a £7 all zone is what he needs then, but if you had ID you could be eligible for the £4.50 day ticket, he said what age does it go up to i said 25 and funnily enough he said well im 23 and pulled his ID straight out of his wallet. over the years how much has this lad saved? thousands probably, meaning just from this 1 person thousands of pounds of lost revenue for gne. this is just 1, how many others have been getting away with getting a pound fare well into their 20s. give it a few weeks and it will be second nature to produce ID, stagecoach have there VIP ID cards (that gne also accept as id) that have to be shown for an under 19 ticket. if people are also constantly asked for the next 2 weeks when they got on a bus if they have ID im sure they will soon remember to take it with them.

I agree 100%. In my opinion, the ones who are wholeheartedly against showing ID are those that have been paying £1 for 3 years and are well above 18 and still want the cheap ticket. I could probably fill a bus with people now paying full fare now who were getting child fares just 2 weeks ago.

(13 Sep 2019, 6:19 am)Stanleyone wrote

I agree 100%. In my opinion, the ones who are wholeheartedly against showing ID are those that have been paying £1 for 3 years and are well above 18 and still want the cheap ticket. I could probably fill a bus with people now paying full fare now who were getting child fares just 2 weeks ago.

I like the idea of the ID for the single tickets, but for the day/week/monthly tickets it's quite an inconvenience. Even though I'm eligible for the £68 a month ticket, I'll probably continue to pay the £95 for the convenience of just tapping my card on the reader and getting straight on

(13 Sep 2019, 6:30 am)streetdeckfan wrote

I like the idea of the ID for the single tickets, but for the day/week/monthly tickets it's quite an inconvenience. Even though I'm eligible for the £68 a month ticket, I'll probably continue to pay the £95 for the convenience of just tapping my card on the reader and getting straight on

You would pay £324 a year more then you need to....I think you best go and see your doctor