(26 Jan 2022, 7:41 pm)Omega54 wrote Passengers are back at 70%, 25% of that is concessionary passes, nexus is slashing that to 5%, so realistic GNE revenue is going to drop by 20%. 

That is ridiculous.

(26 Jan 2022, 8:13 pm)streetdeckfan wrote I don't follow, Nexus are reducing the concessionary rate by 20%, so if that's 25% of GNE's revenue, then it would be 20% of 25%, so their revenue would only drop by 5%?

(26 Jan 2022, 8:13 pm)streetdeckfan wrote I don't follow, Nexus are reducing the concessionary rate by 20%, so if that's 25% of GNE's revenue, then it would be 20% of 25%, so their revenue would only drop by 5%?

(26 Jan 2022, 7:30 pm)Omega54 wrote What do you think they should be going?

(26 Jan 2022, 8:23 pm)Omega54 wrote Oh sorry, I withdraw my comment, I thought he meant reducing it by 20% to 5%, 5% is still a massive percentage. 

Company make 50 million (pre pandemic), 2022, 70% which is 35 million, drop that by 5%, now down to 30 million.

(26 Jan 2022, 8:40 pm)busmanT wrote Which company made 50 million what pre pandemic?

Go North East published accounts show a profit for the year ended 30 June 2019 of £2.85 million.

(26 Jan 2022, 8:35 pm)Malarkey wrote Elsewhere how many times has the Washington Mini Bus Ops been changed, is it still Simply Washington, Washington Street Shuttle, Indigo or Links Pinks, it's had that many changes even i'm getting lost as to whether it is 2022 or if i've time travelled back to 2006, the Venture Network in Stanley and Consett and the 33 in Sunderland are other examples I can think of straight off the top of my head, the developing pattern here has been established that as an Operator when it comes to services changes the same mistakes are made time and time again at Go North East, for me whoever makes those decisions really should be held accountable as they have played a major role the damage to the network we see today.

(26 Jan 2022, 8:50 pm)L469 YVK wrote The Coast Road is a funny one. Whilst the 306/308 have been stable, GNE have seriously upped their game on the 309/310/311 since 2013 and certainly 2016 onwards.

If anything other than minor changes, I see no reductions to the 309/310/311 as  at most, a PVR of 3x would be saved unless GNE made very deep cuts. And given Arriva's potential circmstances (Jesmond Depot) and the need to review and streamline things, GNE would be wise to take advantage of that unless BSIP actually comes in.

(26 Jan 2022, 5:44 pm)Andreos1 wrote I think the SNE network works as it does, cos it doesn't take someone an hour plus to get to work or the shops. 
They can get from a - b pretty easily.

Using Newcastle as an example. 
Newburn to Quorum. 
Killingworth to the Business Park... You get the gist.

The footprint of the network is pretty small vs ANE or GNE and if someone does need to change buses, they're not sitting there for the best part of an hour on the first leg.

It's stable because it works.

However, when you compare it to Shields, Sunderland and Hartlepool, I'm not sure I am of the same opinion.

I've kept quiet on these rumoured changes on purpose. It's well documented what I think GNE do and don't need to do. They're seemingly sticking with the slashing method and I'm not convinced it's the right method.

(26 Jan 2022, 8:23 pm)Omega54 wrote Oh sorry, I withdraw my comment, I thought he meant reducing it by 20% to 5%, 5% is still a massive percentage. 

Company make 50 million (pre pandemic), 2022, 70% which is 35 million, drop that by 5%, now down to 30 million.

(26 Jan 2022, 8:50 pm)L469 YVK wrote The Coast Road is a funny one. Whilst the 306/308 have been stable, GNE have seriously upped their game on the 309/310/311 since 2013 and certainly 2016 onwards.

If anything other than minor changes, I see no reductions to the 309/310/311 as at most, a PVR of 3x would be saved unless GNE made very deep cuts. And given Arriva's potential circmstances (Jesmond Depot) and the need to review and streamline things, GNE would be wise to take advantage of that unless BSIP actually comes in.

(26 Jan 2022, 9:05 pm)RobinHood wrote The EP will sort the Coast Road. It will be rationalised I suspect by the summer.

Unfortunately Qualifying Agreements aren't quick though, as you need to tick quite a few legal boxes.

Operators will be focused on sorting their immediate financial concerns first I suspect.

(26 Jan 2022, 9:07 pm)Storx wrote Aye totally get what your saying and honestly don't disagree about it tbh.


Revenue: 150m
Costs: 140m
Profit: 10m

Reduction by 20%

Revenue: 120m
Costs: 140m
Loss: 20m

Just saying


But why should they 'take advantage of it'. It's a horrible selfish attitude and it's partly the reason they're in the mess they are anyway. Just because you use the 311, those buses shouldn't be there to be frankly honest. They offer nothing bar petty competition. The sad thing is if Arriva did do streamlining, it'll be some other community, somewhere like Amble because it happens to be in the middle of nowhere getting the brunt of it but you won't care as it's not your area.

GoNorthEast don't have a network in North Tyneside anymore. The 1 during the day only, the 41 Monday - Friday during the day only and a few routes along a horribly congested road competing against someone else isn't a network. If GNE wasn't there, you could make the argument Arriva would make more profit and could potentially attempt to make some of the local routes commercial like the 11 in particular.

I might be being brutal but there's no need for GoNorthEast anymore, you could get arid of the 309 tomorrow and there'd be a very very small minority who would be affected similar with the 311 if the 310 served Hadrian Park all day.

(26 Jan 2022, 2:26 pm)Bazza wrote The question is why?

What was GNE doing wrong?  Does it show that all the gimmicks (Branded routes, constant rebranding,  fares, special routes, hi spec buses etc etc) made no positive difference whatsoever to the bottom line of the balance sheet? Perhaps even had the opposite effects due to the extra costs incurred.

(26 Jan 2022, 2:59 pm)Storx wrote Probably more to do with the routes imo. Arriva and Stagecoach have some very strong corridors (X10/X11/X21/X22/X15/X18/306/308/6/7/63/64/X93/1: Arriva), (1/39/40/62/63 and so on: SNE). Apart from the 20, 21, 56, 60 and X1. There's nothing that really stands out in terms of making a fortune. On the otherhand they have some very weak routes, (82/83/11/42/42A/5/26/28/29/Peterlee locals).

Not sure there's much you could really do with some of the routes realistically as there's just not the demand and over the years they've butchered the network to a level where there's literally nothing left to butcher.

It doesn't help there's the Metro / Arriva and SNE dominating most their areas neither with the routes you realistically want.

(26 Jan 2022, 3:35 pm)Bazza wrote ANE and Stagecoach have kept there routes more or less stable.   It has been mentioned that Arriva have made cuts, but these have been frequency reductions rather than routes being curtailed, diverted or stopped.  it seems like GNE chop and change very quickly. How many different brands have there been in the last few years?

(26 Jan 2022, 5:44 pm)Andreos1 wrote I think the SNE network works as it does, cos it doesn't take someone an hour plus to get to work or the shops. 
They can get from a - b pretty easily.

(26 Jan 2022, 9:07 pm)Storx wrote Aye totally get what your saying and honestly don't disagree about it tbh.


Revenue: 150m
Costs: 140m
Profit: 10m

Reduction by 20%

Revenue: 120m
Costs: 140m
Loss: 20m

Just saying


But why should they 'take advantage of it'. It's a horrible selfish attitude and it's partly the reason they're in the mess they are anyway. Just because you use the 311, those buses shouldn't be there to be frankly honest. They offer nothing bar petty competition. The sad thing is if Arriva did do streamlining, it'll be some other community, somewhere like Amble because it happens to be in the middle of nowhere getting the brunt of it but you won't care as it's not your area.

GoNorthEast don't have a network in North Tyneside anymore. The 1 during the day only, the 41 Monday - Friday during the day only and a few routes along a horribly congested road competing against someone else isn't a network. If GNE wasn't there, you could make the argument Arriva would make more profit and could potentially attempt to make some of the local routes commercial like the 11 in particular.

I might be being brutal but there's no need for GoNorthEast anymore, you could get arid of the 309 tomorrow and there'd be a very very small minority who would be affected similar with the 311 if the 310 served Hadrian Park all day.

(26 Jan 2022, 9:22 pm)stagecoachbusdepot wrote Although I asked the question of why the recent and forthcoming cuts were so stark with GNE compared to the others, I think the question of why they had different starting positions is quite clear.  As others have pointed out GNE and SNE had pretty massively different portfolios of routes, with SNE still basically being confined to urban ex Corporation boundaries, whereas GNE have more diverse, more rural and by and large longer routes, with less easy profit to cream off.

That said, the fact that the performance of GNE has been consistently challenged, despite over a decade and a half of branding and gimmicks, might suggest they aren’t working.  Not the cause, but also very clearly not a solution.

I do think the stability/instability of the network has a role to play.  SNE are undeniably rigid and I think could do with refreshing or improving some services – but again variations not wholesale cuts.  The reverse is true with GNE which has for years and now worse than ever in my opinion is a complete basket-case of changes.  While SNE would do well to be a bit more imaginative, the GNE network would surely benefit from a period of stability (i.e. what the Sept cuts were meant to bring, then the Oct ‘tweaks’…) – really does seem changes are made on top of changes without enough time for travel patterns to settle.  It does seem bizarre GNE put effort into producing and updating branded material for the likes of ‘the Blue’ yet four months and two timetable changes on, there’s still no sign of an actual Blue branded bus.

It does appear, from the outside looking in, to be a maybe less resilient operation, forced to respond to the challenges of the pandemic more drastically and sooner than competitors – yet at the same time the most vocal about ‘fit for the future’ and ‘we’re better than ever’ etc.  Appreciate these slogans have been dropped of late but arguably ill-conceived in the first place as they become a hostage to fortune.


You have clearly never tried getting from A to B on the 32/32A!

(26 Jan 2022, 9:41 pm)Storx wrote Wonder if it might also have to do with the type of networks they've both pushed. GNE pushing the hub and spoke model hard whereas Arriva and SNE have long bus routes connecting two (or more) hubs but serving lots of little communities in between.

I know certain people on here like pushing that hub and spoke is the future but looking at what's going in North Tyneside it can't be anything of the opposite since GNE are now pretty cancelling all of the spokes.

Like just picking Ashington out of anywhere, it doesn't matter where you live in Ashington there will be a service direct to Newcastle nearby some quicker than others but it's a service. Similar to Newbiggin along the road with both direct links to Newcastle, Ashington and Morpeth argubly the 3 places they'd most likely want to be. Compare to that to say Washington where a very small amount of the town have a direct service to Newcastle, Sunderland or Chester Le Street. If you live in say Teal Farm and want to go anywhere you have to piss about with a minibus to a hub to then change to go anywhere which no doubt don't connect with anything.

I know which network I'd have and the fact the first isn't subsidised at all currently and second is probably says something.

(26 Jan 2022, 9:50 pm)stagecoachbusdepot wrote I dunno I don't really see SNE (and dont know enough about Arriva ops to comment) being much better on that front to be honest.  SNE 'cross city' routes in Sunderland and Newcastle only work if you happen to want to go from e.g. Silksworth to Doxy or or the Sunderland North Estates.  You still need to change to get to plenty of places as they binned off all of their more 'community serving' linking up routes over the last couple of decades (likes of 5, 6, 7, 14, 17, 18/19, 21 etc in Sunderland and 2, 3, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 19, 20 etc in Newcastle).  Hub and spoke definite demotivator for public transport usage overall; convenient as it may be for the operators.

(26 Jan 2022, 9:50 pm)stagecoachbusdepot wrote I dunno I don't really see SNE (and dont know enough about Arriva ops to comment) being much better on that front to be honest.  SNE 'cross city' routes in Sunderland and Newcastle only work if you happen to want to go from e.g. Silksworth to Doxy or or the Sunderland North Estates.  You still need to change to get to plenty of places as they binned off all of their more 'community serving' linking up routes over the last couple of decades (likes of 5, 6, 7, 14, 17, 18/19, 21 etc in Sunderland and 2, 3, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 19, 20 etc in Newcastle).  Hub and spoke definite demotivator for public transport usage overall; convenient as it may be for the operators.

(26 Jan 2022, 11:56 pm)N391OTY wrote I hope you are not blaming SNE for the disappearance of the Newcastle routes you list. Most of those hardly made it to the advent of Busways, never mind SNE !

(26 Jan 2022, 11:23 pm)DaveFromUpNorth wrote Public transport on arriva and GNE despite the regular services along the coast road are actually doing its purpose  and having bums on seats.

You may critise GNE and tell them to give up!

Tell NUFC to give up and leave the football league as they are in the relegation  zone it's the same philosophy

I saw in previous  posts Dan explaining and defending the decision to extend services and tweaking them

We should not be on this forum promoting the abolishing of bus services and companies from areas because as soon as they go and the competition is removed that competition will not return even decades later we have routes that have never been restored think of OK bus services as an example.

We haven't seen those services back have we?

What you also have to remember  is speculation and and encouraging companies to leave a particular  region means  a strategic consideration along with job losses for drivers

What I have read tonight is basically slagging off GNE

There is tough decisions about this budget meeting on 2 February 2022!

If you live in Tyne And Wear contact your local NECTA Representative if you have ideas on how Nexus can increase the revenue.

There has also been criticism with GCT operating services.

Tonight has given me an insight on doing some hypothetical maths and it looks like to run an hourly secured service with one bus on an hourly route is about £40 an hour .  Instead of attacking we should realistically look at how to increase passengers onto a service that Costs about £40 an hour to run at least  i do agree with Dan on why little tweeks to services is the future as oppose to new services

Cutting services and removing operators from an area in 5 years time we see a service issue going from 10min to 20min to 30min then hourly

Remember before covid

Services to estates in CLS were operated by Scarlet Band every 2 hours!

In the countryside they have one service a day in each direction

We should be fighting for more services if we are enthuisasts not less!

For every one bus that is removed from service is about 2-3 bus drivers job loss and the knock on effect on labour hours elsewhere

I hope we are not promoting job losses are we?

Sorry for chapter 1 on War and Peace... if you have never read the book it's a good read and apologies for the rant.

(26 Jan 2022, 9:45 pm)Bazza wrote Maybe we’re seeing the last dying gasps of a 40 year experiment in bus deregulation.   

Many people / companies have made a lot of money in that time, but the public have very little improvement, in terms of service delivery levels, to see and take away from deregulation.   

If operators have to work together to make services sustainable, I’d rather profits generated are ploughed back into public transport than salted away overseas or into the pockets of the wealthy shareholders

(27 Jan 2022, 12:15 am)DaveFromUpNorth wrote The death of the high Street has a strong factor of bus companies creating cross service operations  giving no purpose for passengers to get off and change

We used to have feeders to the metro like Heworth or Wallsend buses went to them and you were forced to use them to get to Newcastle or Gateshead quicker.

What we now have is Nexus Assets occupying bus interchanges  and wasted space in terms of provisions for bus layovers and breaks when it's not necessary look at Heworth  we could build a lidl on the arrival side  and still effectively run a bus station

Infact a drive through could be added to increase footfall at Heworth to generate rental increase and passengers

(27 Jan 2022, 12:39 am)Ambassador wrote I don’t think anyone is promoting job losses but we have to be realistic in how we got here and where we go from here, we probably should fund public transport in a better way, but it doesn’t win votes so we won’t. It’s too easy to push this whole thing on covid, it’s not just Covid. Covid exposed frailties for sure but we’ve been creaking at the seams in GNE terms for years. Private companies have done alright out of the network for a long time, it can’t be one way anymore.

The GNE network and branding has been so scattergun, even the flagship routes. Look at the 21 in the last 25 odd years. We’ve had: 221, Classicliner 21, 21-24/7, pink Angel ,red Angel, panicked pink deckers Angel again, hybrid green and newer green. You don’t see the same chaotic approach at Arriva and GNE (and this is on a route aside an hourly X12 they hold a monopoly on)

Even the ticketing has had so many changes and tweaks and gimmicks where SNE have…dayrider/mega rider. The zones make no sense. A purple zone carries you from barley mow/Birtley to Blyth and Ashington but not to Chester le St where you might want to go shopping or socialise

(27 Jan 2022, 1:12 am)stagecoachbusdepot wrote They all made it well into Stagecoach years, and almost all in fact into the 2000s, so very much SNE cuts.

(27 Jan 2022, 7:58 pm).N391OTY wrote Really !

The 2 parallelled the 1 through Heaton before setting off to Walker / Montagu Estate, the 15 Jesmond Circle bit the dust when Newcastle's central motorway was built and isolated part of the route from Barras Bridge to Jesmond Road, and the 19 Walker Circle disappeared about the same time, leaving Benfield Road without any regular buses for many many years. I live on the route of the former 15 and 19 so I know when they stopped running and it was well before 2000.

Unless you are aware of these route numbers being reused subsequently.

(27 Jan 2022, 11:48 pm)Ok Rapidsnap wrote The bus network regardless of where you are isn't helped by a number of different factors.

The obvious one is increased car ownership.

Modern housing estates that are built to suit car owners, and are built in such a way that it's difficult to send a regular size bus service through these new estates when roads are only suitable for breadvan style minibuses, plus the fact that most of these estates are one way in and out. Really devlopers should make bus travel attractive by providing a bus road that runs the length of the estate which also prevents the need for the bus having to go back on itself to regain its normal route. It brings the bus closer to the doorstep of those living on the far side of these new estates.

The rise of budget supermarkets. People shoping habits have changed, once upon a time people would look down their noses at you if you shop at Kwik Save or Netto etc. These days, people happily do their weekly shop at Lidl or Aldi, even at a push Herons. They've become so popular that they are popping up everywhere, you cannot go too far without finding one of these, just look at Pelaw, there's a Lidl and an Aldi accross the road from each other. Because they are everywhere, most people don't have to travel as far by bus, some might even walk there on a nice day and get a taxi back once they've got all their shopping in. Even the bigger supermarkets don't do the bus operators any favours by making it harder for bus users to travel to them with a long walk over a windswept car park, and it isn't very appealing having to cross back over the car park back to the bus stop. There used to be a time where buses actually went to the front door of the Hypermarket (now Benton ASDA) and Boldon Asda where people get off the bus and walk straight into the supermarket, and wait in the comfort of the supermarket waiting for the bus home too. Only supermarket that comes to mind where the bus actually drops you off at the store entrance is the Sainsbury's in Whitby (https://flic.kr/p/2mtcqDJ). I'm not sure if the 16 actually goes into the Tesco car park at Consett which the free bus used to (https://flic.kr/p/2kUBV3v), that stopped next to the entrance. Again design the car park where a bus road runs along and stops at the entrance of said supermarket, it's not as if some of these supermarkets are pressed for space. Think the Morrisons at Alnwick is pretty much spot on considering the Bus Station is next to the supermarket. I know some supermarkets do have dedicated bus stops like Morrisons at Jarrow and somewhere in Middlesbrough, but they aren't at the front door to the place. Annoyingly when they built Killingworth bus station, I feel that they put the bus station in the wrong location and should have been placed closer to the entrace to the morrisons along by where Greggs and Ladbrokes are, least it make it more safer for passengers considering the Ladbrokes and Betfred that are there are open to 10pm every night, so if someone felt threatened they could always take refuge next to or in the shop.

The final one is that people are losing confidence in their bus service, with services going missing whether they have been announced or not, doesn't really help people if they had planned a few days before hand to get a certain journey to find the day before it has been cancelled and they have to re-arrange their travel plans.

(27 Jan 2022, 11:48 pm)Rapidsnap wrote Annoyingly when they built Killingworth bus station, I feel that they put the bus station in the wrong location and should have been placed closer to the entrace to the morrisons along by where Greggs and Ladbrokes are, least it make it more safer for passengers considering the Ladbrokes and Betfred that are there are open to 10pm every night, so if someone felt threatened they could always take refuge next to or in the shop.

(27 Jan 2022, 11:02 pm)stagecoachbusdepot wrote Seems you are thinking of route numbers in Newcastle from way further back than those I was referring to.

The 15 operated from July 1988 (for a long time as 14/15 circulars) under Newcastle Busways, TWOC, Newcastle Busways again, Stagecoach Busways and well into Stagecoach stripes (existing until maybe 5 years ago) though by the end just as the 15.

The 19 I am referring to was introduced in July 1988 as part of the 18/19/20 grouping (now just the 18 remains, and only in part) and existed for decades through the Busways years and well into Stagecoach (19 went in 2006).

In terms of the Sunderland routes, again I was referring to post-dereg numbers from late 80s onwards.  Prior to that believe routes in Sunderland hadn't carried 1 or 2 digit numbers since 1973...