(21 Feb 2020, 3:50 pm)mb134 wrote I've believed for quite a while that, bar a few key routes (including things like Airport routes), a strong corporate livery with minimal route branding is the way forward. Things like WiFi, USB sockets, NSAs are becoming standard spec, so going forward operators need to do a better job of marketing other benefits. 

Journey times, fares in comparison to parking, fuel, insurance etc, perks of using it on a night into town in comparison to driving is what they need to focus on moving forward. Daytime services, while passenger numbers will probably be slightly lower than they used to be, probably aren't the main issue - evening services using the same vehicles with substantially lower passenger numbers are. Essentially leisure users need to increase - that can only really be done with attractive fares. 

(21 Feb 2020, 4:47 pm)WheelBus1986 wrote There is a bus 30 seconds from my front door right to the Metrocentre. Because i own a car, it is not economical for me to get a bus as i simply dont spend £5.30 on fuel there and back, if i am with my partner then £10.60 is far too much! 

The operators need to keep hold of people before they get a car at a young age, as no one is really going to spend on both, if you already have that outgoing of finance/insurance/tax, fuel is much cheaper than a bus ticket. 

When you add it all up, if i currently could get a bus to work, i would get rid of the car it would save me £200+ a month.

When i start at GNE we are going straight down to 1 car. It makes zero sense to have 2 when i do not need it for work. Even if i had to pay for the bus i would still get rid as its not economical to pay for both.

(21 Feb 2020, 5:46 pm)Andreos1 wrote To counter streetdeckfans Mams car, I'm getting 55/58 mpg in mine and paying pennies in tax. 

(21 Feb 2020, 5:59 pm)streetdeckfan wrote We need a big car as we move quite a bit of stuff around (we do property development on the side), the downside of that is not the best fuel economy (although better than my friend's Mini Cooper) and £250 a year in tax! 

If I had to buy a car, I would get an EV anyway as I love quick cars and have off street parking, so that would basically remove the cost of fuel and tax, but then the insurance is still a killer!

Plus, I like the convenience of just sitting on a bus and getting work done

(21 Feb 2020, 5:46 pm)Andreos1 wrote I think those two bib highlight exactly what the issue is. 
They need to attract people, but it's cheaper and more convenient in the car. 

I can't get a direct bus to the metrocentre from my T&W property. Its 3 buses there and the same back, unless its a weekend and I can time my connections with an X88. Then it can be done with one change. 

I can be on the A1(M) at Picktree within 5 mins of leaving the house. Granted I'm then at the whims of the Western Bypass, but on a good day I can be there another 10mins later.
To counter streetdeckfans Mams car, I'm getting 55/58 mpg in mine and paying pennies in tax. 

For all the WiFi and USB's, there's still no financial incentive or convenience in using the bus.

It's the same if I'm in R&C.
Three buses (needing a multi-operator ticket this time) or the car. But there is the option of the train and it being much quicker than the bus.
Having the railcard makes it cheaper.

(21 Feb 2020, 6:04 pm)Andreos1 wrote Mines a decent sized car too. 
It has to be for the things I need it for (and when MrsC wanted the Christmas tree). 
Pennies in tax, good mpg and a decent size. It's one of the reasons I got rid of the old one.


The time saved when driving somewhere, allows me to do my work when I get there.
It still doesn't offer an incentive to use the bus, however much I may want to.

(21 Feb 2020, 6:14 pm)mb134 wrote I'm reasonably out of touch with parking charges in the NE, though last I remember Newcastle was free after 5?

Up here the main shopping centre is a flat £1.50 after 18:00, with many other parking places free after 19:00. First sell an "evening ticket" for £3 after 19:00 - no real use to anyone with a car as parking is cheaper and the distance First cover nobody is realistically paying more than £1.50 in petrol (bar one route). I guess the hope for bus companies is that people want to have a drink, which rules the car out completely. Then, however, they need to be priced considerably less than a Taxi and be reasonably convenient. 

There is no bus from where I live down home to the Metrocentre, I'd have to change at Haymarket/Eldon Square onto another operator - taking my bus fare to nearly £10. In comparison on that journey my car will do about 45mpg, keep me warm, play the music I want through speakers, and smell of whatever air freshner I've got in - and take less than half the time. 

Further, myself and majority of the people I know have a reasonably large chunk of mobile data per month so WiFi - which isn't always straightforward to get onto in the first place - becomes obsolete. Plugs, when they work, are handy but who's taking a USB cable with them on an evening out? Surely you stick your phone on charge while getting changed etc from work, and as most phones have quick charging these days that's you up to 50%+ in about half an hour. 

Tables are nice, but again, if there's 4/5 of you are you really going to choose the bus over a car if someone is willing to not drink for one evening? There's also the possibility of tables not being available, people listening in on conversations, someone wanting the window open in the middle of December etc...

(21 Feb 2020, 6:14 pm)mb134 wrote I'm reasonably out of touch with parking charges in the NE, though last I remember Newcastle was free after 5? 

Up in Aberdeen the main shopping centre is a flat £1.50 after 18:00, with many other parking places free after 19:00. First sell an "evening ticket" for £3 after 19:00 - no real use to anyone with a car as parking is cheaper and the distance First cover nobody is realistically paying more than £1.50 in petrol (bar one route). I guess the hope for bus companies is that people want to have a drink, which rules the car out completely. Then, however, they need to be priced considerably less than a Taxi and be reasonably convenient. 

There is no bus from where I live down home to the Metrocentre, I'd have to change at Haymarket/Eldon Square onto another operator - taking my bus fare to nearly £10. In comparison on that journey my car will do about 45mpg, keep me warm, play the music I want through speakers, and smell of whatever air freshner I've got in - and take less than half the time. 

Further, myself and majority of the people I know have a reasonably large chunk of mobile data per month so WiFi - which isn't always straightforward to get onto in the first place - becomes obsolete. Plugs, when they work, are handy but who's taking a USB cable with them on an evening out? Surely you stick your phone on charge while getting changed etc from work, and as most phones have quick charging these days that's you up to 50%+ in about half an hour. 

Tables are nice, but again, if there's 4/5 of you are you really going to choose the bus over a car if someone is willing to not drink for one evening? There's also the possibility of tables not being available, people listening in on conversations, someone wanting the window open in the middle of December etc...

(21 Feb 2020, 6:33 pm)Andreos1 wrote Yeah, the Alive after 5 deal is still on. I've seen a fair few operator representatives complaining about the free parking. 
I was fortunate in that the Alive after 5 scheme started not too long after GNE axed the direct bus from Newcastle.

(21 Feb 2020, 6:41 pm)mb134 wrote Slightly off topic but this is what councils need to put a stop to if they're wanting to lower city centre emissions. Assuming on an evening families etc are using the car parking and have cars of 3/4 people, one double decker could take 20 cars off the road. 

If people are wanting to be in town on an evening, they'll still get into town - be it paying for parking or getting a bus.

(21 Feb 2020, 6:46 pm)Andreos1 wrote Assuming they can get a bus...
If they can't, then they either continue driving in or find an alternative.

(21 Feb 2020, 7:07 pm)mb134 wrote Indeed. 

The annoying thing is that public transport doesn't need to be too jazzy for people to use it. I frequently go to Norway where on the whole buses aren't painted in hugely eye-catching liveries, but are reliable, comfortable and reasonably priced. The few times I've used the buses there on an evening they've had very decent loads, and through the daytime I can't remember ever getting a bus that's had less than 10 or so people. 

An example of the simplistic liveries:

https://twitter.com/alextransdev/status/1227250643901067268?s=19

(27 Feb 2020, 2:14 pm)Big O wrote When I first moved up here I noticed that the fares were simply a rip-off, I live towards Rowlands Gill and my local bus service is the red kite offering of GNE. I had a car down in London for a number of months that was getting fixed and I had to use the bus for the best part of 6 months. 2 of those 6 months completely cleared me out.  £5.30 for a return one just one bus is just ridiculous. That same money could get you around the whole London network for a day which is a far more expensive city.

There's a push to get people using public transport more, backed up by the talk of carbon emissions ect, but when your bus doesn't show up in the morning and there is little to no communication to tell you why, you won't care about the wifi, tables, leather seats and fancy colour schemes. You just want to get to where you are going. The model in London is different, there are no commercial services, it's all tendered work which means if a bus doesn't show up the operator is heavily penalised. So there is an incentive to run on time. In the rare event that a bus doesn't show, the frequencies can make up for it and buses are adjusted.

I remember once in Sunderland, there were delays for whatever reason and I remember seeing 4 16s in a row, none adjusted and thus leaving a big gap in service. Who wants to trade their car for that?! The buses will never be attractive to young people who now have their mind dictated by social media, everybody wants to fit the "image" and a car is certainly apart of this. 

The lack of connections in certain parts of the city is just terrible and puts you off using the bus altogether due to the price again. I think people in my area would greatly benefit from a service that could run from Rowlands Gill - Whitley Bay via Four Lane Ends the Cobalt. A nice cross-city service linking the main hubs of employment and also a place of leisure in the summer months.

I think tendered services are the way forward, it creates better competition and not just operators trying to time themselves in front of the other, cheaper fares, an enhanced bus network and it would increase patronage. Manchester is another City who are going to adopt this approach and it cleatrly works. Look at London.

(27 Feb 2020, 2:52 pm)Ds1197 wrote You can't really compare north east with London and go north east is actually quite cheao

(27 Feb 2020, 3:10 pm)RM2186 wrote London Bus services received a £722 million subsidy to produce nice cheap fares for those that earn a greater wage than those outside. Something wrong there and maybe answers your question as to the reasons fares in the North East are comparably higher.

(27 Feb 2020, 5:09 pm)RM2186 wrote https://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/tfl-set-for-742m-loss-thanks-to-bus-subsidies-a4096581.html

(27 Feb 2020, 3:02 pm)Big O wrote Your definition of cheap and mine must be different. London services are no-thrills, NSA announcements on every bus, and some now have USB charging points and Wi-Fi. The difference is a better-integrated network which actually makes sense you using the bus over the car in a lot of cases. All the money spent on here to make buses fancy could be put into R&D to find out what the public want versus what the overheads think they want. A standard fare of £1.50 per journey and a hopper fare which means you can change as many times as you want in an hour is an attractive business model that has worked down there.

(27 Feb 2020, 8:22 pm)BusLoverMum wrote Those London fares are very heavily subsidised. Bus companies have to be profitable. 

Considering large parts of our region are rural, what we have isn't at all bad compared with a lot of the provinces. Lots of small villages have a bus every hour or two or even every half hour and often a few to different places, while down in parts of East Yorkshire and some parts of the southwest, people are lucky to see a bus a day.

It's rare that a bus doesn't show up because the bus has conked out. There's usually circumstances way beyond the operator's control such as traffic delays (which affect car drivers, too) causes by roadworks, accidents, severe weather or just plain gridlock.

Screenshot_20200227_123423.jpg (Size 610.7 KB | Downloads 39)

(27 Feb 2020, 3:02 pm)Big O wrote Your definition of cheap and mine must be different. London services are no-thrills, NSA announcements on every bus, and some now have USB charging points and Wi-Fi. The difference is a better-integrated network which actually makes sense you using the bus over the car in a lot of cases. All the money spent on here to make buses fancy could be put into R&D to find out what the public want versus what the overheads think they want. A standard fare of £1.50 per journey and a hopper fare which means you can change as many times as you want in an hour is an attractive business model that has worked down there.

(29 Feb 2020, 8:42 pm)Adtrainsam wrote The  buses in the North East are much better compared to other areas. In Essex, it’s First territory, majority 15 year old buses, no WiFi, next stop announcements etc. 20 year old deckers on major services. Expensive, Old, Unreliable. GNE do good value tickets(a weekly ticket is more than 2x cheaper) and provide a good service. Fancy buses, that’s what customers want. London is heavily subsidised and don’t have WiFi and most don’t have USB ports. Businesses have to make a profit to survive. If GNE and Stagecoach did what London did, they’d be out of business.

(01 Mar 2020, 1:13 am)Big O wrote Fancy buses are not what the industry wants. A bus to run on time is what the passenger wants.

(01 Mar 2020, 7:03 am)Dan wrote So why do operators keep spending lots of money on trying to improve customer experience on-board buses? Are they all wrong?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

(01 Mar 2020, 10:31 am)Big O wrote Got my words mixed up, I meant to say fancy Buses is what the industry wants. A passenger wants a reliable service. I’ve yet to encounter someone who thinks a table can account for a late running service. You’d get more footfall if that money was invested into more frequent service and maintenance to make vehicles more reliable. E-leather seats on a streetlite do not disguise the fact it’s an uncomfortable rough riding bus with a cramped and claustrophobic feeling interior.

(01 Mar 2020, 12:26 pm)EAndreos1 wrote Cars can link to Spotify and are comfortable. It's possible to charge your phone in the car too. 

No different to what you can do on the bus, yet bus operators are pushing these things as luxuries. 
But inconveniencing passengers with prices, changes and limitations on service hours. 

I've never had those restrictions in the car and can do without the urge to scroll through social media every few minutes.

(01 Mar 2020, 3:23 pm)Big O wrote I agree, it’s all ridiculous to be fair and only someone biased or trying to impress their overheads could disagree.

A bus will always be a bus, no one really likes them and gets on one because it’s has tables or WiFi. Run them on time and to places people actually want to go and you’ll get a return on your investment. I don’t use the WiFi on public vehicles anyway because it isn’t secure and data can easily be interfered with.

(01 Mar 2020, 4:50 pm)Dan wrote Maybe I'm biased then, as I disagree. There are numerous articles online which attribute improving customer experience, by way of more premium specification features on-board buses, to revenue growth.

A couple of Arriva examples, admittedly in the trade press a few years old now, are below:
https://cbwmagazine.com/arriva-goes-max/
https://www.busandcoachbuyer.com/arriva-midlands-110-sapphire-growth/

In my opinion; providing a reliable bus service that goes to the places its users want to go to, maintains revenue. Operators have to do more to protect that revenue and grow it. Schemes such as Arriva's 'Sapphire' and 'MAX' - and more recently Go North East's 'X-lines' - aim to provide a better customer experience for the operators' passengers, with the view of boosting revenue.

Sadly merely maintaining existing passenger numbers and/or revenue is not sustainable. Bus operators' costs rise every year with employees' pay rises alone. That's before you consider other factors, such as fuel, insurance, etc. Operators need to do something more than provide a basic bus service to increase patronage to make this affordable, and I'd argue investing in new buses and refurbishing existing buses with better features, definitely contribute to doing this.

Clearly some operators see no other alternative but to reduce service levels in order to reduce costs and in turn maintain profit levels. This is a last resort, I'm sure, as operators know that reducing service levels will see a reduction in passenger numbers and hence revenue.