(10 Sep 2021, 11:12 am)tcts24 wrote Yes there is those routes. But the chances of regularly being one of those 3 evening drivers are fairly slim. As for the lack of evening services, that's something only Hartlepool Council and it's potential contractors can change. I'm merely a driver and have no control over such things. But as things stand, that's the main reason I chose Hartlepool. Should the situation change, I'll still do the job but probably transfer to Sunderland.

(10 Sep 2021, 3:24 pm)col87 wrote I personally thing if Stagecoach want to have all town services to themselves then they should do it properly including a good Sunday and Evening network and not just what suits them. Better buses in the fleet and and better evening would see more people using the bus or else the whole town should be giving to someone else. Same with Go North east in Gateshead should not be able to pick and chose what suits them. This is exactly the reason why I would be on favour of services been done on a franchise system as might actually get decent services then.

(10 Sep 2021, 3:24 pm)col87 wrote I personally thing if Stagecoach want to have all town services to themselves then they should do it properly including a good Sunday and Evening network and not just what suits them. Better buses in the fleet and and better evening would see more people using the bus or else the whole town should be giving to someone else. Same with Go North east in Gateshead should not be able to pick and chose what suits them. This is exactly the reason why I would be on favour of services been done on a franchise system as might actually get decent services then.

(10 Sep 2021, 3:44 pm)54APhotography wrote Whilst the battle to win passengers is a huge one for the public relations teams, there is one major problem, that is beyond their control.

Anti-Social behaviour. From playing music and watching clips at full volume without any respect. Loud, leary behaviour. Violence towards the driver and passengers. Drunken loutish behaviour (which is all day now, not at 10pm onwards).

The collapse of any respect and manners in society is no more acutely visible and audible as that when you are on public transport, bus, tram, train. 

The vast majority of passengers have to put up with that, and at night it is extremely intimidating . On the odd occasion I've used public transport this year, I've had to challenge three people. Few will stand up and do so, those who can will use car or taxi. I suspect everyone sees this going on on buses.

The bus and other transport companies can't do a lot to stop this, and it is worse now that ever.

(10 Sep 2021, 3:24 pm)col87 wrote I personally thing if Stagecoach want to have all town services to themselves then they should do it properly including a good Sunday and Evening network and not just what suits them. Better buses in the fleet and and better evening would see more people using the bus or else the whole town should be giving to someone else. Same with Go North east in Gateshead should not be able to pick and chose what suits them. This is exactly the reason why I would be on favour of services been done on a franchise system as might actually get decent services then.

(10 Sep 2021, 5:57 pm)tcts24 wrote Unfortunately, that's how capitalism works. Stagecoach or anyone else can pick and choose what they want to run. Even Paul's Travel haven't chipped in with an evening service because it isn't profitable. Asking Stagecoach to run an empty bus (and to be fair, they often do! I've been the only person on a Hartlepool local route several times) just on the off chance somebody might occasionally get on with their NCTS pass is like asking Tesco to to stock miniture condoms just in case somebody is big enough to admit their shortcomings. But they don't, as there's no profit to be made from using shelf space for something that will barely, if ever sell.

You don't seem to be grasping that the primary function of Stagecoach (and other commercial transport providers) is to make a profit and any gaps in the network are the responsibility of the local authority or PTE to fill. In this particular case it's Hartlepool Council that's at fault, not Stagecoach. You may remember that it was actually Arriva not Stagecoach that ran most of the tentered routes in the town before HBC cut the funding over a decade ago.

(10 Sep 2021, 6:36 pm)Adrian wrote As others have said, its not just on Stagecoach, but anyone can start up a service there if they so wish to do so. Given Go North East's attempts in the past, I'd suggest the customer base just isn't there, with them subsequently withdrawing from the area completely.

You've still got a fairly late Hartlepool to Durham service with the 24/58, but perhaps an evening and Sunday network would be an opportunity for Tees Flex? I know they added new destinations in July, but still disappointing that it only runs until 8pm Mon-Sat.

(10 Sep 2021, 8:26 pm)col87 wrote I know what your saying but a better service could actually bring more people onto the bus. They no reason why they couldn’t at least for example trial the 1 Between High Tunstall - Seaton on a evening. I have had this argument with the council but the council don’t exactly care I asked them about helping out last month just got a load of excuses.  I know when it was Hartlepool Transport they used profits from the more popular routes to fund less popular ones instead we have Stagecoach using any profits mostly for shareholders and as you know Hartlepool is probably the least cared about depot Stagecoach North East have with most things done from Sunderland. If services where there am sure people would use them and the E200 midi buses would be more than enough they could even use one of the tees flex buses for something like the old 15 would be no harm in at least trailing more evening services.

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The reason the 55 never worked was it was two long a journey and no good as a local service. The 24/58 only serve the Dyke House area of town so still not exactly good if you live in Seaton or Rift House.  I not sure anyone can just start a company up either and do commercial services in the town or else someone may well have tried by now the closest was Tees Valley Coach Travel but that again was an out of town service and even then they did not exactly go head to head with Stagecoach and I no some plans they had for town services never happened.

(10 Sep 2021, 8:26 pm)col87 wrote I know what your saying but a better service could actually bring more people onto the bus. They no reason why they couldn’t at least for example trial the 1 Between High Tunstall - Seaton on a evening. I have had this argument with the council but the council don’t exactly care I asked them about helping out last month just got a load of excuses.  I know when it was Hartlepool Transport they used profits from the more popular routes to fund less popular ones instead we have Stagecoach using any profits mostly for shareholders and as you know Hartlepool is probably the least cared about depot Stagecoach North East have with most things done from Sunderland. If services where there am sure people would use them and the E200 midi buses would be more than enough they could even use one of the tees flex buses for something like the old 15 would be no harm in at least trailing more evening services.

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The reason the 55 never worked was it was two long a journey and no good as a local service. The 24/58 only serve the Dyke House area of town so still not exactly good if you live in Seaton or Rift House.  I not sure anyone can just start a company up either and do commercial services in the town or else someone may well have tried by now the closest was Tees Valley Coach Travel but that again was an out of town service and even then they did not exactly go head to head with Stagecoach and I no some plans they had for town services never happened.

(11 Sep 2021, 6:48 am)tcts24 wrote Stagecoach have trialed route 1 on a night. It was subsidised back in the Hartlepool Transport days. Stagecoach briefly took it on commercially about 20 years ago before the council had to chip in with it again. Clearly, it didn't work out for them. I guess it didn't help that the good people of Seaton Carew decided to smash up half the buses that ran through it either.

Then of course there's route 6, evening journeys withdrawn by Stagecoach a few years ago. They experimentally reinstated the northern section (southern section largely covered by the 36) and that's still going. Plus route 7, evening journeys also withdrawn. They were they ran by Arriva under subsidy. Stagecoach took it back on commercially again following the council's complete withdrawl of it's entire network - including it's own service 980 works bus! Stagecoach still run this today! Meaning they took another experimental risk and it must be working for them.

Yes, it really is that simple! If you or I fancied running the 15 again, all we pretty much need to do is find a base to run from, get an operator licence, two buses (one for the route and a spare) and we're near enough away! Arguably, Paul's Travel is currently best place to plug any gaps and unless I have my wires crossed, she's a Seaton Carew councillor? And if she can't she the merit of running evening buses through her own patch, then it really is down to HBC / TVCA. 

(11 Sep 2021, 11:10 am)Andreos1 wrote Really?
Don't SNE have a responsibility towards their stakeholders? A duty of care perhaps?
A duty of care which could quite possibly increase overall usage and in turn profit.
I'm not sure its a local authorities job to prop up a business which isn't set up or structured for anything other than the benefit of its shareholderss.

(12 Sep 2021, 8:43 am)tcts24 wrote Asda has no responsibility to feed starving families. Which is where food banks and the relevant authorities step in. Stagecoach has no responibility to provide a bus to get me Stockton to Ludworth if I decided to go for a few drinks. In both cases and in every commercial organisation the two responsibilities are to provide a profit for its owners and stay within regulations. If any further non profitable service is required it's up to the relevant social authorities to ensure it's provided, usually at a cost to the public in one way or another.  That's simply the way capitalim works. 

(12 Sep 2021, 8:43 am)tcts24 wrote Asda has no responsibility to feed starving families. Which is where food banks and the relevant authorities step in. Stagecoach has no responibility to provide a bus to get me Stockton to Ludworth if I decided to go for a few drinks. In both cases and in every commercial organisation the two responsibilities are to provide a profit for its owners and stay within regulations. If any further non profitable service is required it's up to the relevant social authorities to ensure it's provided, usually at a cost to the public in one way or another. That's simply the way capitalim works.

(12 Sep 2021, 9:08 pm)James101 wrote It's worth pointing out that the UK is quite unique in the developed world in having a privatised, de-regulated bus system. Even the USA recognise that buses are ran as a loss-making public service to allow citizens to engage with the economy. That's also Capitalism. 

There's a common argument that buses must make money or they shouldn't run. Buses do not make money. Never have & never will. In the UK we provide zero-rate tax on bus fares, Bus Service Operators Grant, (to become Bus Recovery Fund), Green Bus Fund (and it's evolvement into new funds) direct support, Concessionary Fares & more. Vast sums of public money keep buses on the road every day, the difference in the UK is that we've signed off all control of when & where buses run to the private sector. 

Many will point to the Brighton & Hove, Bristol & Harrogate to how the private sector is the best way to run a bus service with local authority support. They can be great, but for every Brighton there's a Hartlepool, a Stoke-on-Trent, a Stafford.....a disinterested local authority and a skeleton private service.

(12 Sep 2021, 9:41 pm)Storx wrote I don't want to turn this into a politics debate but you've listed 3 richer council areas and slagged off 3 poorer / rural council areas. There's a lot more funding spend on stuff like poverty and social care in places like Hartlepool that they simply don't have the money to spend on buses. I wouldn't call them disinterested but in comparison to Harrogate and Brighton there's a lot less money needed to be spend on social care and poverty so they have money spare to spend it on buses etc.

Would you rather Hartlepool funded the 1 to Seaton Carew for 3 passengers over housing a homeless person as that's the sort of decision they have to make and sadly in bus terms they've made the right choice imo.

You could use the same argument that someone in Harrogate or Brighton can happily pay £600+ for a yearly pass upfront whereas for someone in Hartlepool that's just not possible hence the skeleton service.

(12 Sep 2021, 11:52 pm)James101 wrote Social needs are entirely subjective to the user. I can get by without an evening bus. Can the elderly resident of Dalton Piercy who hasn’t seen another person for 3 weeks and doesn’t want to go to the doctor about their symptoms as the taxi is too expensive? Are they less needy than the homeless person? It’s not healthy to pit desperate people against each other.

It’s not always a purely financial problem for local authorities, there’s a genuine competency issue too. I recently tried to use a supported service in Stafford. The total absence of bus-stop timetables left me questioning where to wait so I missed the bus. I emailed the council for clarification on stopping places, it took a week of back & forth to finally get them to understand what I was asking. Their response to my suggestion it could have all been avoided by providing timetables at stops was met with this would be a waste of taxpayers money! I had no reply to my suggestion the greater waste was running an anonymous white ex-welfare minibus with no destination equipment on a route no-one has a clue when or where it runs. 

For this reason I think transport authorities should be established where they do not already exist to asses and implement the social and economic necessary services the Bus Strategy mandates local authorities will now be obligated to provide. I’d go further and have tangible metrics like a minimum service per population density.

(13 Sep 2021, 6:52 am)Storx wrote Honestly I don't disagree with putting social needs against each other tbh. Don't disagree about minimum bus services either and that it should be ran outside of the council's control maybe like the rail to give a decent service for everyone. But sadly a homeless person will always get priority as it's a burden on other services. It's a mess tbh and sadly some places are getting the burden more than others. Councils badly need more money, maybe could be a thing for the Tories to prove their 'levelling up' since they've got a Hartlepool MP now. 

Mind I can't comment on Stafford, it's quite a well off county aswell tbf bar Stafford itself which is a mixed bag. Rural though but you'll always have some bad apples.

Btw one thing that can actually work is to have parish councillors or another level below the main council like Northumberland for most the stuff you mentioned above as they're usually more proactive and care about their local issues. Especially with stuff like timetables as our parish council is constantly getting on about it. I believe they partially subsidise one bus service, with Northumberland Council taking a bit and Arriva aswell. 

The only negative thing I could say about a transport body is GCT in Nexus land so even then you still have problems and let's be honest Nexus don't give a toss either.

(12 Sep 2021, 10:04 am)Andreos1 wrote And look at the problems it creates? 

Those starving families a by-product of it... 

But aye, keep the status quo and allow businesses designed to benefit shareholders do their own thing. Maybe leeching off the taxpayer at the same time.

I mean, commercial risk is surely linked to capitalism too. Yet here we are, with those companies taking very little commercial risk.

(13 Sep 2021, 10:32 am)James101 wrote Transport authorities aren't perfect, as you say Nexus' ability to hold GCT to account for their contract failings isn't ideal. But at least it's something, so many non-PTE areas have zero supported services and zero timetable information provision. 

Bus services in Stafford raises another worrying point in deregulated bus market. Arriva had a monopoly on the Stafford & Cannock network, quite similar to Stagecoach with Hartlepool. Despite not having any competition they still couldn't make the depot work and sold the operations to D&G bus, who quickly offloaded the Stafford network to smaller independent Select Bus of Penkridge. Clearly the town isn't attractive bus territory - what happens if Select can't make it work with their low-cost operation and fleet of elderly buses? Does a borough of 120'000 people simply have to go without a local bus network?

(14 Sep 2021, 5:53 am)Charles41 wrote I feel greater use should be made of the legislation that allows taxi firms to run bus services. This is used in Tyne & Wear by Nexus in parts of the county.

It would be ideal for rural areas of Northumberland and County Durham. Let's say for example you use a taxi firm from Morpeth on a route to Wallington Hall. Chances are you'll be employing someone with good local knowledge. You'll be using say an eight seater minibus that can also be used for school contracts and general taxi work. You'll be able to negotiate narrow country lanes and pick/up drop off in isolated locations. All that would be needed is training the operator in ticketing options and customer service requirements. With good publicity you could make a success of it never mind encouraging local bus use.

It could also work in areas such as Hartlepool on evenings and Sundays. There are two private hire operators in Hartlepool (23 and Blue line). Use a wheelchair accessible 8 seater after conducting a survey to find out where people wish to travel the most. Then get some publicity in place.

Charles

(14 Sep 2021, 5:53 am)Charles41 wrote I feel greater use should be made of the legislation that allows taxi firms to run bus services. This is used in Tyne & Wear by Nexus in parts of the county.

It would be ideal for rural areas of Northumberland and County Durham. Let's say for example you use a taxi firm from Morpeth on a route to Wallington Hall. Chances are you'll be employing someone with good local knowledge. You'll be using say an eight seater minibus that can also be used for school contracts and general taxi work. You'll be able to negotiate narrow country lanes and pick/up drop off in isolated locations. All that would be needed is training the operator in ticketing options and customer service requirements. With good publicity you could make a success of it never mind encouraging local bus use.

It could also work in areas such as Hartlepool on evenings and Sundays. There are two private hire operators in Hartlepool (23 and Blue line). Use a wheelchair accessible 8 seater after conducting a survey to find out where people wish to travel the most. Then get some publicity in place.

Charles

(14 Sep 2021, 9:37 am)Adrian wrote Why would taxi firms want to do that though? If the bus service doesn't exist in the first place, then the taxi companies have the monopoly.

A better solution would be to allow local authorities to run their own municipal bus companies again, which would allow the commercial gap to be plugged without giving more work to the private sector.

(14 Sep 2021, 9:37 am)Adrian wrote Why would taxi firms want to do that though? If the bus service doesn't exist in the first place, then the taxi companies have the monopoly.

A better solution would be to allow local authorities to run their own municipal bus companies again, which would allow the commercial gap to be plugged without giving more work to the private sector.

(13 Sep 2021, 10:42 am)tcts24 wrote I never said it was moraly right. Capitalism is simply the system inplemented by consecutive govermenments voted in by the masses or some crap like that.

From what I'm told by a friend that works within the social sector of Hartlepool Council, one of the biggest funding problems is the lack of high value housing, meaning they have a higher proportion of band A properties than most other local authority areas, this coupled with over a decade of funding cuts = less funding for what's deemed as less important sectors, such as transport.

Other areas wich may affect the bus industry in the town are the exeptionally cheap taxi's - which again, I'm told make remarkably little profit. Whether this is because of cheap fares, cometition, or maybe a lack of social travel because of the low income much of the local population has due to high unemployment.

Whatever the solution is, it won't be solved overnight by a bus company resurecting long forgotten routes that few if anybody is going to patronise.

(14 Sep 2021, 7:18 pm)Charles41 wrote Maybe the question should be asked are local authorities the best organisations to run local bus services. I would argue in their present state they are not. Many councils are bureaucratic, risk averse and dominated by political factions.

You need an element of private enterprise to take risks and build new markets. I'd argue the late Spirit Buses of Rothbury made a valiant attempt at this. Things took a turn for the worse when the local council awarded the service to the lowest bidder, PCL Travel.

Charles