(17 May 2022, 11:04 pm)Acky81 wrote Pointless sending the 39 up to houghton le spring. People can use the 20 and walk from Durham road

(17 May 2022, 11:02 pm)Drifter60 wrote I’ve been taking time to review the full list before making detailed comments, but I think we all well expected lots of these cuts. What really sticks out is the fact it’s not a year since the “getting buses fit for the future”. A few points from me.

Service 65
A big uplift in September 2022, later evening and Sunday buses for the first time in about a decade but 8 months in they’re wanting to cut it back? As people have said above; it hasn’t yet had the summer period to monitor passenger loads, both ends of the route during summer could have boosted Sunday services. I also distinctly remember being told to expect a ‘marketing campaign’ for this service, but I’ve never seen any promotional material about it.
Don’t get me started on the idea of a ‘two hourly’ service!! Night buses maybe but not for daytimes.

Service 62
Essentially this was just the 202 that had ran for years previously but with an extension to Sunderland. The interworking with X6 meant departure times to/from Sunderland were useless, X6/62 pretty much within 10 minutes of each other, there was little point from the start.

Murton
62 up for the axe and the 61 losing an bus each hour leaves Murton with fewer bus links and fewer connections - no direct bus to Peterlee, South Hetton, Spectrum Business Park.
I can remember when the 61 was every 15 minutes - it’s another which seems to have went the way of the 35; constant tinkering which has put passengers off. In the last ten years the 61 has numerous brand names, different coloured buses and vehicles types:
* Green ‘Drifter’ Cadets
* Purple ‘SimpliCity’ Versas
* Silver ‘unbranded’ Citaros
* Red ‘Black Cats’ Streetlites/Solars
* Changed to the ‘The 9’ with Red/Blue Citaros
* Back to the 61, Now branded as ‘Blue’ but still without blue buses.

If we’re saying branding works, having multiple colours, names and vehicles surely can’t be helping?

South Hetton
They’ll go from five buses per hour as is now to two buses although in fairness the X1 has added extra bus just recently. But it’s also about lost connections,if these changes go ahead mixed with previous cuts direct links to Durham, Seaham, Dalton Park, Horden, Easington Colliery, Sunderland and Doxford International all lost.

(17 May 2022, 11:02 pm)Drifter60 wrote I’ve been taking time to review the full list before making detailed comments, but I think we all well expected lots of these cuts. What really sticks out is the fact it’s not a year since the “getting buses fit for the future”. A few points from me.

Service 65
A big uplift in September 2022, later evening and Sunday buses for the first time in about a decade but 8 months in they’re wanting to cut it back? As people have said above; it hasn’t yet had the summer period to monitor passenger loads, both ends of the route during summer could have boosted Sunday services. I also distinctly remember being told to expect a ‘marketing campaign’ for this service, but I’ve never seen any promotional material about it.
Don’t get me started on the idea of a ‘two hourly’ service!! Night buses maybe but not for daytimes.

Service 62
Essentially this was just the 202 that had ran for years previously but with an extension to Sunderland. The interworking with X6 meant departure times to/from Sunderland were useless, X6/62 pretty much within 10 minutes of each other, there was little point from the start.

Murton
62 up for the axe and the 61 losing an bus each hour leaves Murton with fewer bus links and fewer connections - no direct bus to Peterlee, South Hetton, Spectrum Business Park.
I can remember when the 61 was every 15 minutes - it’s another which seems to have went the way of the 35; constant tinkering which has put passengers off. In the last ten years the 61 has numerous brand names, different coloured buses and vehicles types:
* Green ‘Drifter’ Cadets
* Purple ‘SimpliCity’ Versas
* Silver ‘unbranded’ Citaros
* Red ‘Black Cats’ Streetlites/Solars
* Changed to the ‘The 9’ with Red/Blue Citaros
* Back to the 61, Now branded as ‘Blue’ but still without blue buses.

If we’re saying branding works, having multiple colours, names and vehicles surely can’t be helping?

South Hetton
They’ll go from five buses per hour as is now to two buses although in fairness the X1 has added extra bus just recently. But it’s also about lost connections,if these changes go ahead mixed with previous cuts direct links to Durham, Seaham, Dalton Park, Horden, Easington Colliery, Sunderland and Doxford International all lost.

(18 May 2022, 12:10 am)Jimmi wrote I do wonder if the fact the 61 goes against the grain of many of its contemporaries in Sunderland by looping round via Burdon Road & Holmeside instead of going straight into Park Lane Interchange has an affect on things?

(18 May 2022, 12:10 am)Jimmi wrote One of the other issues with the 61 now is its in a somewhat over-saturated market with other services running along the same corridor(s), between Murton and Dalton Park (albeit with slight differences) there's currently 7 buses an hour (61: 3ph - 62: 1ph - 65: 2ph - X1: 1ph), between Dalton Park and Sunderland you have Arriva competing with a 15 minute frequency on the 22/23 with GNE having a 20 min frequency on the 61 (plus between the two locations you also have the 62 & X6 thrown into the mix) and other GNE services in parts the rest of the way like the 60, 65 & 39/39A.

I do wonder if the fact the 61 goes against the grain of many of its contemporaries in Sunderland by looping round via Burdon Road & Holmeside instead of going straight into Park Lane Interchange has an affect on things?

(18 May 2022, 6:28 am)Storx wrote Could drop the 39/39A to half hourly on the 39A route and renumber it the 2B maybe instead and have the 2's working every 10 minutes. Would be every 30 minutes out of Washington towards Sunderland so not that bad timing wise. 

Then have the 61 running every 20 minutes in-between them so it's a 5 / 10 service along there. Seems more sensible than it running as an oddbod service. 

The 39/39A mostly duplicates things anyway including Stagecoach services. Whatever happened to the BSIP as there still seems to be a lot of protecting routes with the Coast Road services and now these. Not to mention the 33 which duplicates either the Stagecoach 12 or 13 throughout (forgot which).

(18 May 2022, 6:48 am)cbma06 wrote I would drop the 39/39a between town and pennywell, Chester road is covered by other services plus the 20 in pennywell, and could if needed maybe extend from Doxford international via back of Farringdon where the 55 went to board inn then along to Herrington burn then newbottle then down to burnside into Houghton


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(18 May 2022, 2:05 pm)V514DFT wrote One change that sticks out at me is the 1,wasnt it only back in March the 1 was threatened to be cut,now they're proposing extending it

(18 May 2022, 2:05 pm)V514DFT wrote One change that sticks out at me is the 1,wasnt it only back in March the 1 was threatened to be cut,now they're proposing extending it

(18 May 2022, 2:21 pm)Boggle wrote I believe this will be the third time that the 1 was been extended to Low Fell and Wrekenton. Let’s see how long it lasts this time.

(18 May 2022, 2:31 pm)Andreos1 wrote November.

'Due to passenger feedback which states passengers prefer using Eldon Square, the 1 will no longer operate between Gateshead and Wrekenton via Allerdene and Harlow Green. Passengers in Allerdene are advised to thumb a lift up to Allerdene Bridge or the Aletaster and wait for a 21. Our new partnership with Go Outdoors and the latest incarnation of our smart card, means you can get 6% off the price of a sledge and make those snowy walks back down the hill, much more fun.
For those on Waverely Road, we advise you to sign up to our innovative car share scheme and contribute to the queues of traffic on Old Durham Road, Kells Lane or Durham Road'.

(18 May 2022, 2:31 pm)Boggle wrote I know it’s symptomatic of the world we live in where profit is all that matters to organisations such as GNE but these proposed changes are hard to digest. The removal of the 25 cuts long established links from Portobello to Newcastle, not to mention Sacriston, Langley Park etc. Maybe the previous changes to the 25 diverting it via Low Fell were an attempt to make it less attractive and justify its cancellation. The loss of all buses to Kibblesworth is terrible for the village. Yes, I doubt they make much money for GNE but they are vital services particularly for the older population of the village. Loss of the 69 cuts links which have existed for decades.

(18 May 2022, 3:44 pm)Storx wrote Not sure where to post this so I'll post it here but just a trail of thought here but is it just me which things the GNE network in general is broken in areas. There seems to be a massive obsession with having one primary route that does one route then everywhere else streets away just rots.

Just picking on the 21 as it's one of the worst for it surely a better well designed network like pretty much every other network including Arriva (see 43, 44, 45, 46 up the GNR for an example) would be to split it up into individual routes such as:

R1 - Newcastle to Brandon (2bph)
R2 - Newcastle to Langley Park splitting at Chester le Street (2bph)
R3 - Newcastle to Washington via 82 route splitting at Birtley (2bph)
R4 - Newcastle to Pelton via 28 route after Birtley (2bph)
R5 - Newcastle to Kibblesworth after Harlow Green (1bph)
R6 - Newcastle to Eighton Banks after Harlow Green (1bph)

(These are just examples not suggestions, don't want to discuss where they go it's not the point of the post)

Surely this provides a better service for everyone with 10 BPH between Harlow Green and Newcastle (R1 - 6), 8 BPH to Birtley (R1 - 4) and 4 BPH (R1 - R2) to Chester Le Street with all the local communities which are now getting hammered because they can't pick up punters as they're on longer routes going around the world where there's no passengers being cut. 25/28/29 in particular and removes duplicates which was supposedly a point of the BSIP not to mention loads of new direct connections. I haven't worked it out but the PVR has to be lower than the current 21/25/28/29 combined or close and almost everyone wins with mostly quicker services (CLS the only loser but they've got the X21 anyway). Instead there's 4 buses just running to CLS on one corridor and terminating yet everywhere else in Birtley and CLS has no service, at all, now to Newcastle. If they were all numbered in a block say the 20's then people going to Low Fell know to just get any 20 bus it's not exactly confusing.

Similar could be said for the rest of the Washington locals where there's minibuses running around struggling and 15 minute corridors next door just passing by not picking up people surely routes could be changed to get arid of them altogether, people don't want to change buses. There's other areas aswell which are the same.

(18 May 2022, 3:44 pm)Storx wrote Not sure where to post this so I'll post it here but just a trail of thought here but is it just me which things the GNE network in general is broken in areas. There seems to be a massive obsession with having one primary route that does one route then everywhere else streets away just rots.

Just picking on the 21 as it's one of the worst for it surely a better well designed network like pretty much every other network including Arriva (see 43, 44, 45, 46 up the GNR for an example) would be to split it up into individual routes such as:

R1 - Newcastle to Brandon (2bph)
R2 - Newcastle to Langley Park splitting at Chester le Street (2bph)
R3 - Newcastle to Washington via 82 route splitting at Birtley (2bph)
R4 - Newcastle to Pelton via 28 route after Birtley (2bph)
R5 - Newcastle to Kibblesworth after Harlow Green (1bph)
R6 - Newcastle to Eighton Banks after Harlow Green (1bph)

(These are just examples not suggestions, don't want to discuss where they go it's not the point of the post)

Surely this provides a better service for everyone with 10 BPH between Harlow Green and Newcastle (R1 - 6), 8 BPH to Birtley (R1 - 4) and 4 BPH (R1 - R2) to Chester Le Street with all the local communities which are now getting hammered because they can't pick up punters as they're on longer routes going around the world where there's no passengers being cut. 25/28/29 in particular and removes duplicates which was supposedly a point of the BSIP not to mention loads of new direct connections. I haven't worked it out but the PVR has to be lower than the current 21/25/28/29 combined or close and almost everyone wins with mostly quicker services (CLS the only loser but they've got the X21 anyway). Instead there's 4 buses just running to CLS on one corridor and terminating yet everywhere else in Birtley and CLS has no service, at all, now to Newcastle. If they were all numbered in a block say the 20's then people going to Low Fell know to just get any 20 bus it's not exactly confusing.

Similar could be said for the rest of the Washington locals where there's minibuses running around struggling and 15 minute corridors next door just passing by not picking up people surely routes could be changed to get arid of them altogether, people don't want to change buses. There's other areas aswell which are the same.

(18 May 2022, 6:48 am)cbma06 wrote I would drop the 39/39a between town and pennywell, Chester road is covered by other services plus the 20 in pennywell, and could if needed maybe extend from Doxford international via back of Farringdon where the 55 went to board inn then along to Herrington burn then newbottle then down to burnside into Houghton


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(18 May 2022, 4:37 pm)Unber43 wrote Really the 39 could be an attempt to get GNE more links from Farringdon, Thorney, Doxford Park.

The you could have the 40 from Sunderland Park Lane, to Pennywell but not via chester road.

(18 May 2022, 4:40 pm)deanmachine wrote Always thought the 39 should be a circular service that went to Doxford via Farringdon and Thorney Close after serving Pennywell.

(18 May 2022, 4:44 pm)Unber43 wrote To be fair same, it goes so close to Pennywell at Doxford it would make much more sense for a loop (i think i suggested this previously) 

Also it should go into Parklane

(18 May 2022, 4:33 pm)DeltaMan wrote If you replace loads of infrequent services with one main bus route at a high frequency thorugh the middle of where people live, then that would normally mean you should attract more people within walking distance of the main road than you lose by not diverting off the main drags.  Given how frequent the 21 remains between Chester and Newcastle, that would lend credence to the idea that removing routes such as the 777, 721 etc were, on balance, the right thing to do.

(18 May 2022, 5:00 pm)cbma06 wrote Park lane interchange is a shambles, it’s not fit for a bus interchange, needs knocking down or blown up , to cold and windy, you would think the person who designed it didn’t live on the windy cold coastline and then the pathetic excuse of the council who approved it, stagecoach stopped using it as it costed more time for the buses to divert in and out and the cost per bus each day to use it, should knock down Blandford street, pull down between holmside and Brougham street and a build a better bus station with bricks and not glass


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(18 May 2022, 5:05 pm)Storx wrote Aye I understand that but does that really happen though in theory when you've got the 25, 28, 29 and 51 bouncing all over it at numerous points which are all really struggling and now were at the case where one road has a really good service but Ouston, Kibblesworth, Portobello, Langley Park etc don't have a bus service at all now to Newcastle because of the 21 pretty much.

https://images.nctx.co.uk/2022-02/Nottingham%20Colour%20Coded%20Map%20Feb%2022.pdf - There's a few good examples there in Nottingham where it happens and it seems sensible to me with blocks of numbers and the core corridor in this case Durham Road having a good service then when they go further out they start to split up and serve everywhere. It means the profits coming from the 21 can top up the less profitable end bits rather than those services running all the way to Newcastle / Gateshead duplicating the 21 around the world attempting to create links which don't exist.

(18 May 2022, 5:06 pm)Unber43 wrote You could use the example of the 61 & 60. 

Where ones goes the current route from Ryhope, however one could do the way of the diversion (Sunderland Marathon) its worth a try and basically adds nothing to journey times.

(18 May 2022, 3:44 pm)Storx wrote Not sure where to post this so I'll post it here but just a trail of thought here but is it just me which things the GNE network in general is broken in areas. There seems to be a massive obsession with having one primary route that does one route then everywhere else streets away just rots.

Just picking on the 21 as it's one of the worst for it surely a better well designed network like pretty much every other network including Arriva (see 43, 44, 45, 46 up the GNR for an example) would be to split it up into individual routes such as:

R1 - Newcastle to Brandon (2bph)
R2 - Newcastle to Langley Park splitting at Chester le Street (2bph)
R3 - Newcastle to Washington via 82 route splitting at Birtley (2bph)
R4 - Newcastle to Pelton via 28 route after Birtley (2bph)
R5 - Newcastle to Kibblesworth after Harlow Green (1bph)
R6 - Newcastle to Eighton Banks after Harlow Green (1bph)

(These are just examples not suggestions, don't want to discuss where they go it's not the point of the post)

Surely this provides a better service for everyone with 10 BPH between Harlow Green and Newcastle (R1 - 6), 8 BPH to Birtley (R1 - 4) and 4 BPH (R1 - R2) to Chester Le Street with all the local communities which are now getting hammered because they can't pick up punters as they're on longer routes going around the world where there's no passengers being cut. 25/28/29 in particular and removes duplicates which was supposedly a point of the BSIP not to mention loads of new direct connections. I haven't worked it out but the PVR has to be lower than the current 21/25/28/29 combined or close and almost everyone wins with mostly quicker services (CLS the only loser but they've got the X21 anyway). Instead there's 4 buses just running to CLS on one corridor and terminating yet everywhere else in Birtley and CLS has no service, at all, now to Newcastle. If they were all numbered in a block say the 20's then people going to Low Fell know to just get any 20 bus it's not exactly confusing.

Similar could be said for the rest of the Washington locals where there's minibuses running around struggling and 15 minute corridors next door just passing by not picking up people surely routes could be changed to get arid of them altogether, people don't want to change buses. There's other areas aswell which are the same.

(18 May 2022, 5:06 pm)Unber43 wrote I agree, I think Sunderland needs a new massive interchange, for Stagecoach, Arriva & GNE to all use together . 

And it would be close to the train station aswell. You could make a bus gate between Park lane & that bus station aswell to only add a few minutes to journey times. And Park Lane can just become something else. Its like a bloody wind tunnel

---

You could use the example of the 61 & 60. 

Where ones goes the current route from Ryhope, however one could do the way of the diversion (Sunderland Marathon) its worth a try and basically adds nothing to journey times.

(18 May 2022, 5:05 pm)Storx wrote Aye I understand that but does that really happen though in theory when you've got the 25, 28, 29 and 51 bouncing all over it at numerous points which are all really struggling and now were at the case where one road has a really good service but Ouston, Kibblesworth, Portobello, Langley Park etc don't have a bus service at all now to Newcastle because of the 21 pretty much.

https://images.nctx.co.uk/2022-02/Nottingham%20Colour%20Coded%20Map%20Feb%2022.pdf - There's a few good examples there in Nottingham where it happens and it seems sensible to me with blocks of numbers and the core corridor in this case Durham Road having a good service then when they go further out they start to split up and serve everywhere. It means the profits coming from the 21 can top up the less profitable end bits rather than those services running all the way to Newcastle / Gateshead duplicating the 21 around the world attempting to create links which don't exist.

Compare that to GNE's network map and it looks like some kid has had the crayons out.

(18 May 2022, 2:31 pm)Andreos1 wrote November.

'Due to passenger feedback which states passengers prefer using Eldon Square, the 1 will no longer operate between Gateshead and Wrekenton via Allerdene and Harlow Green. Passengers in Allerdene are advised to thumb a lift up to Allerdene Bridge or the Aletaster and wait for a 21. Our new partnership with Go Outdoors and the latest incarnation of our smart card, means you can get 6% off the price of a sledge and make those snowy walks back down the hill, much more fun.
For those on Waverely Road, we advise you to sign up to our innovative car share scheme and contribute to the queues of traffic on Old Durham Road, Kells Lane or Durham Road'.