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+--- Thread: Best of the big three? (/showthread.php?tid=4072)
Best of the big three? - Starscream - 07 Aug 2022
Historically, I'd always ranked the local big three as 1. GNE, 2. Stagecoach, 3. Arriva. I'd always loved GNE's forward looking approach to vehicles, marketing, networks and ticketing. I'd harboured a grudging respect for Stagecoach's corporatism and Day Rider, and I'd never seen anything I like about Arriva, dreading any journey that included them.
Latterly, I've been surprised how my thoughts have changed....
I have recently had to use Arriva a lot, on many different services, and have found their punctuality excellent, vehicles fair to good, the app surprisingly useful (once you get used to it), and the routes, timings, fares and ticketing options quite reasonable given their operating constraints. All you can really criticise them for is the haphazard use of branding, but that seems to be a problem affecting all operators three days, assuming the reason is the recent ructions. I am not too sure, but they also seem to be the least reluctant to start hacking off bits of their network to save a penny, but perhaps others know different.
GNE has gone way down in my eyes, having seemingly forgotten all the things that made them good, but not so much that they have a better way of doing things now, the resulting hybrid of a bit of the same and yet some changing ways being a sad and almost delusional look, as seems to have been observed here. Their network seems to be crumbling, their marketing, in practice and conception, seeming to be as bad if not worse than Arriva of the present day. And they can't really blame Covid either, since the decline began way before that, and yet they're in possession of the same advantages/drawbacks as Arriva and Stagey, and arguably have a stronger local position from which to leverage efficiencies and new opportunities.
Stageoach's decline is the most depressing to me. A stable network isn't worth much if the routes, timings and connection opportunities aren't as good as they could be. They can't blame urban congestion for all of their increasingly poor time keeping, with notably Arriva seeming to be able to do more with less, but they seem to think the punters are mug enough to believe it. The new corporate livery and growth strategy is frankly absurd, the worst of a world where the three companies seem determined to be the worst at this very basic aspect of running buses (in essence, livery and offer). The DayRider just seems to be less of a good deal and more of a con trick these days. The buses have steadily gone from a well turned out relatively modern fleet, to the embarrassment of the region. The loss of WiFi seems to personify everything that the current Stagecoach offer represents (i.e. we know you don't have any better options, so F You).
What a world to live in, where Arriva is the best local offering. And to be clear, Arriva's offering is poor enough in my eyes for the haphazard use of branding alone, to seriously contemplate the horror of a publicly managed just about good enough not really run for the customer in the ways of counts (treating their needs as priority one, two and three) but at least subsidised by car drivers Manchester style monopoly.
Depressing.
RE: Best of the big three? - Storx - 07 Aug 2022
tbh I think it would be better to look at it on depot to depot basic rather than as a company as a whole. All 3 seriously vary between each other big time depending on which one were talking about.
Just to pick Arriva out; Ashington, Blyth and Stockton are generally very good, generally alright fleet presentation and as you say good reliability but then you have Durham and Darlington which are the complete opposite; buses which are in shocking condition, cancellations constantly and are generally just poor with inappropriate allocations in particular at Darlington with Solo's running routes than should be double decker.
It's the same with Stagecoach really; Walkergate is generally alright but then you have Hartlepool which is the dumping ground of everything that no-one wants. I don't know Stockton too well but from what I've seen it seems to be generally alright bar the few MAN's they've inherited for the Euro 6 zone up in Newcastle.
GNE is just a mess throughout though with bad management imo and a serious big morale issue. Percy Main and Hexham being generally better than the Southern depots though, CLS / Washington by far the worst because of the strike action pretty much. GNE have the best marketing though which cover up the cracks, in particular service cuts which have been going for years. In the past 15 years, North Tyneside has gone from a GNE dominant area with some Arriva routes to an Arriva area with barely no GNE routes at all.
RE: Best of the big three? - streetdeckfan - 07 Aug 2022
Despite living in the middle of an Arriva area, I rarely find a reason to use their services over the one GNE service we have.
Having said that, when I have used them, other than the presentation of some vehicles, and the quality of some drivers (although that seems to have improved vastly, a few years back I remember having a driver who literally couldn't speak a word of English! How they got the job I'll never know), I don't really have a problem with the service. For the most part they turn up on time and get me where I need to be.
And if there's a delay, THE APP ACTUALLY TELLS ME! It doesn't cover it up and just change the time without saying anything like the GNE app does. If I need to make a connection, I NEED to know it's running late!
As for Stagecoach, of the very few times I've used them (I can only recall using them maybe twice in the last decade), I can't say I was impressed. The drivers were shocking and the buses weren't much better. But, due to the small sample size, I can't really make a valid assessment of them either way!
In my experience of GNE and Arriva, I'd probably say Arriva offers the better bus service, but I'd definitely say GNE offers the best 'experience' (if they turn up).
I don't believe that GNE have any truly 'bad' buses left (although I'm happy to be corrected on that), whereas Arriva definitely do have some shockers out and about!
RE: Best of the big three? - Unber43 - 07 Aug 2022
Outside of the cancellations GNE are hands down the best experience you can have on a bus.
RE: Best of the big three? - Andreos1 - 07 Aug 2022
Wherever I've lived, I've always wanted another of the operators to start working routes in that area.
Lived in Durham and wanted GNE to make a move.
Lived in various places in T&W and wanted ANE or SNE to make a move.
Mind, as a kid - Northern/GoAhead Gateshead were always my favourites. Tended to choose them over OK or United.
Once I started to rely on the company for more than trips out and I needed to commute to school, college or work - then my perception quickly changed to the one where I wanted that other operator to step in and I used the likes of OK where possible and Redby when they introduced a bit of competition.
Back in ANE land now and for all the fares are pretty naff and there's gaps that Teesflex fill, I've no major issues. Certainly don't have the desire for GNE to make a move in to the area at all.
RE: Best of the big three? - PH - BQA - 07 Aug 2022
(07 Aug 2022, 1:52 pm)streetdeckfan wrote Despite living in the middle of an Arriva area, I rarely find a reason to use their services over the one GNE service we have.
Having said that, when I have used them, other than the presentation of some vehicles, and the quality of some drivers (although that seems to have improved vastly, a few years back I remember having a driver who literally couldn't speak a word of English! How they got the job I'll never know), I don't really have a problem with the service. For the most part they turn up on time and get me where I need to be.
I've recently started to use Arriva to commute to work. The monthly ticket is over £100 cheaper than what I'd need to be paying in fuel at current prices, with the trip only being around 40 mins per day longer on the bus.
The punctuality of the bus I catch in the morning is always spot on, with the evening bus only really being late on a Friday - though I can always check this while still at work and just leave a bit later. Twice I've been let down on a morning due to mechanical failure and while this is highly inconvenient for most, for me I can always just go and jump in my car so it isn't a huge issue. The comfort and cleanliness of the vehicles is always fine, not "as posh as my car" by any stretch but it isn't advertised as such and so my expectations weren't high going in. I don't use the WiFi, but it's generally always there if needed, and to be honest I've never had the need to see if the sockets/USBs work (though I'd assume they don't).
In essence, I find the service convenient, good value for money and, usually, reliable. They get the basics right majority of the time, and personally this is the most important part of a bus service.
I can't comment on commuting with GNE/SNE, as bar odd journeys here and there I've never relied on them to get me anywhere, but I would say that Arriva Northumbria at least tend to do a solid, if unremarkable, job.
RE: Best of the big three? - streetdeckfan - 07 Aug 2022
(07 Aug 2022, 6:33 pm)mb134 wrote I've recently started to use Arriva to commute to work. The monthly ticket is over £100 cheaper than what I'd need to be paying in fuel at current prices, with the trip only being around 40 mins per day longer on the bus.
The punctuality of the bus I catch in the morning is always spot on, with the evening bus only really being late on a Friday - though I can always check this while still at work and just leave a bit later. Twice I've been let down on a morning due to mechanical failure and while this is highly inconvenient for most, for me I can always just go and jump in my car so it isn't a huge issue. The comfort and cleanliness of the vehicles is always fine, not "as posh as my car" by any stretch but it isn't advertised as such and so my expectations weren't high going in. I don't use the WiFi, but it's generally always there if needed, and to be honest I've never had the need to see if the sockets/USBs work (though I'd assume they don't).
In essence, I find the service convenient, good value for money and, usually, reliable. They get the basics right majority of the time, and personally this is the most important part of a bus service.
I can't comment on commuting with GNE/SNE, as bar odd journeys here and there I've never relied on them to get me anywhere, but I would say that Arriva Northumbria at least tend to do a solid, if unremarkable, job.
I think Arriva (County Durham in my case) get the basics right, and don't promise anything more than they can deliver. At least on the services I use.
GNE, on the other hand, seem to be over promising, and very much underdelivering.
Having said that, ask me a year or two ago, and I would have said the complete opposite!
GNE were the punctual one, and it was Arriva I was having constant problems with.
Do I think GNE were wrong to go down the path they did with MG's vision for the company?
No, I honestly don't. If we're to believe what they were saying, it actually did start to work and increase passenger numbers prior to COVID.
Do I think GNE were wrong to double down on it?
No, I honestly don't. It worked in the past so why wouldn't it work again.
Do I think that GNE, having realised it wasn't working again, should have just kept going, resulting in the absolute shitshow of today?
Obviously not.
I think, as Andreos has been saying (If I ever say those words again, put me down), they really need to start again from scratch, look at where people are and where they want to go, and put some f**cking buses between them! Cutting service after service is never going to result in anything other than a spiral of decline.
Why hasn't there been a massive consultation with the public on public transport, asking people where they want to go?
I get it's a lot of effort, and probably a fair bit of money, but it's not exactly a difficult job. It'd be mostly quantitative data that could easily be sorted automatically!
In fact, given that my day job is literally working on market research and we deal with large consultations quite regularly, it's something I could probably very easily do if I could be arsed!
RE: Best of the big three? - PH - BQA - 07 Aug 2022
(07 Aug 2022, 7:17 pm)streetdeckfan wrote I think, as Andreos has been saying (If I ever say those words again, put me down), they really need to start again from scratch, look at where people are and where they want to go, and put some f**cking buses between them! Cutting service after service is never going to result in anything other than a spiral of decline.
Why hasn't there been a massive consultation with the public on public transport, asking people where they want to go?
I get it's a lot of effort, and probably a fair bit of money, but it's not exactly a difficult job. It'd be mostly quantitative data that could easily be sorted automatically!
In fact, given that my day job is literally working on market research and we deal with large consultations quite regularly, it's something I could probably very easily do if I could be arsed!
It's arguably the sort of thing Nexus/NCC/DCC should be doing as a combined approach, after all a decent chunk of routes in the NE spend time in multiple areas.
Realistically it should have been done at the start of 2021 to give operators a chance to implement the outcomes and give them a year or so to settle in while being subsidised by the government.
RE: Best of the big three? - col87 - 11 Aug 2022
Am ok so I have a pass but to be honest at the moment I would have to say Arriva is the best of the three but I am judging them on quality of service and how good the buses are from where I live.
Arriva. Despite cutting the number of destinations from the town and reducing the 23 the majority of the fleet is comfortable and most of them now have next stop announcements. Services still pretty regular with 15 minutes between the 23 and 24 and 57/57A not been to bad. They do get marked down for the awful uncomfortable seats on the enviro 200 though.
Stagecoach. Where do I start here. Since taking over Hartlepool Transport and Cleveland Transit in 1995 services have been cut right back with not much of a service after 6.30. The majority of the fleet is awful buses often get full and they can be unreliable. Investment is badly needed but Stagecoach won’t invest. Providing it’s not broke down though then Stagecoach do provide a 10 minute service ( although it can often be late resulting in buses playing leapfrog with each other ) and the seats are comfortable so could be worse. The only thing needed is a slightly better network and better buses.
Go North East. The worst of the big three. Can’t even be bothered to serve the town anymore so they can make the buses as nice and shiny as they want but if they don’t serve the area for me to use them much it a bit redundant. Often messing about with services what was once a stable network is now a complete mess. They have gone from best to worse within just a few years.
RE: Best of the big three? - morritt89 - 11 Aug 2022
For me it used to be GNE. I grew up with them and they were the dominant operator where I grew up (Silksworth) however there were independents that I used frequently too (Redby and George Bell - remember them?). However now, I feel too much emphasis is placed on the gimmicks of what is on board (and the brand) rather than the basics of providing a decent service which is frequent and offers value for money and most importantly a stable network. The fleet is good too bar the hideously unreliable and rattley Mercs. The chopping and changing of routes makes understanding the network complex (or more complex than needed anyway).
Stagecoach are the dominant operator where I live now and I'm happy with the service they provide on my local route. Every 10 minutes with decent buses too (gas buses which I rate). I remember when Stagecoach first introduced the 12 to Silksworth and we had leaflet drops and other marketing and it provided a good reliable service and provided competition to GNE. Stagecoach also have a much more stable network than GNE and a decent fleet. One thing I think however, is if the GNE X36 was a Stagecoach service through the North Estates, it probably would have been more popular.
Arriva is a tough one. I've worked for them and I would say from an outsider, they have vastly improved the fleet however the lack of investment in recent years has started to show. The network is mostly stable too. They don't however operate anywhere near where I live so I rarely use them as a passenger.
Overall, I would say Stagecoach is my preference of operator. I would like to see some new routes tried but overall the stability of the network (and buses that take me and my family where I want to go) puts them miles ahead.
RE: Best of the big three? - F114TML - 11 Aug 2022
I'd say stagecoach, though I may be biased as I work for them. Go NE certainly have the nicest fleet and are the cheapest but, certainly around Sunderland, Stagecoach seems to be much more stable and better in actually providing a service - they aren't perfect, but still fairly good in my experience, and the buses are so frequent (exceptions being the X24 and 8) that you're not delayed too much if a bus is cancelled anyway. Also they pay their drivers the most. Can't comment on my experiences of Stagecoach elsewhere in the NE because they're non-existent.
I used Arriva during college and learnt very quickly to avoid them like the plague. I have no reason to believe that's improved considering they seem to be chucking whatever they found round the back of the shed on the "Sapphire" 22/23/24. I've seen bus types on those routes that I never even knew existed.
RE: Best of the big three? - Unber43 - 11 Aug 2022
(11 Aug 2022, 6:13 pm)F114TML wrote I'd say stagecoach, though I may be biased as I work for them. Go NE certainly have the nicest fleet and are the cheapest but, certainly around Sunderland, Stagecoach seems to be much more stable and better in actually providing a service - they aren't perfect, but still fairly good in my experience, and the buses are so frequent (exceptions being the X24 and 8) that you're not delayed too much if a bus is cancelled anyway. Also they pay their drivers the most. Can't comment on my experiences of Stagecoach elsewhere in the NE because they're non-existent.Speaking of frequency I wonder if any of SC Sunderland services will be reduced in Frequency in Oct/Nov when the funding ends
I used Arriva during college and learnt very quickly to avoid them like the plague. I have no reason to believe that's improved considering they seem to be chucking whatever they found round the back of the shed on the "Sapphire" 22/23/24. I've seen bus types on those routes that I never even knew existed.
RE: Best of the big three? - F114TML - 11 Aug 2022
(11 Aug 2022, 6:20 pm)Unber43 wrote Speaking of frequency I wonder if any of SC Sunderland services will be reduced in Frequency in Oct/Nov when the funding endsSame. I haven't been on the 20 so not sure of the loadings, but I'm not sure how they can justify a full length bus every 10 minutes, considering the 10 and 11 are E200s every 15. I have a feeling that'll be cut, along with maybe the 12, 13 (which are strange timetables anyway - doesn't really work with them combining to be every 12) and 23, and the 18 will probably go secured if it isn't already (I don't think it'll be withdrawn as it gives quite a few areas a direct bus to the hospital).
RE: Best of the big three? - Unber43 - 11 Aug 2022
(11 Aug 2022, 6:36 pm)F114TML wrote Same. I haven't been on the 20 so not sure of the loadings, but I'm not sure how they can justify a full length bus every 10 minutes, considering the 10 and 11 are E200s every 15. I have a feeling that'll be cut, along with maybe the 12, 13 (which are strange timetables anyway - doesn't really work with them combining to be every 12) and 23, and the 18 will probably go secured if it isn't already (I don't think it'll be withdrawn as it gives quite a few areas a direct bus to the hospital).23 if that goes into Tender and if GNE picks it up that will strengthen there sunderland operations.
If the 20 gets cut down GNE 39's might pick up some passengers.
RE: Best of the big three? - F114TML - 11 Aug 2022
(11 Aug 2022, 6:51 pm)Unber43 wrote 23 if that goes into Tender and if GNE picks it up that will strengthen there sunderland operations.True, but I wouldn't exactly trust them with it the way things are, and I don't think the 23 will go to tender.
If the 20 gets cut down GNE 39's might pick up some passengers.
RE: Best of the big three? - Michael - 11 Aug 2022
(11 Aug 2022, 6:51 pm)Unber43 wrote 23 if that goes into Tender and if GNE picks it up that will strengthen there sunderland operations.
If the 20 gets cut down GNE 39's might pick up some passengers.
Hope not... Stagecoach are actually decent on the route - I do however agree, it'll probs drop to every 15 mins after the funding ends.
I do wonder, if they'll go for the previous proposed changes, swapping the 4 and 23 around -
4 to Thorney Close
23 - renumbered 22 and to Doxford Park.
RE: Best of the big three? - Unber43 - 11 Aug 2022
(11 Aug 2022, 6:56 pm)F114TML wrote True, but I wouldn't exactly trust them with it the way things are, and I don't think the 23 will go to tender.Hopefully they can get more drivers in and the driver shortage will have minimal impact from Sept.
RE: Best of the big three? - Michael - 11 Aug 2022
(11 Aug 2022, 7:10 pm)Unber43 wrote Hopefully they can get more drivers in and the driver shortage will have minimal impact from Sept.
I've noticed they've been quite good at not cancelling services in Sunderland - noticed the 16 has had a couple the last 2 weeks (both the same times).
I only ever use the services on a morning and evening though, with maybe once or twice during the day - so not sure what its actually like throughout the day in Sunderland.
RE: Best of the big three? - stagecoachbusdepot - 11 Aug 2022
(11 Aug 2022, 7:09 pm)Michael wrote Hope not... Stagecoach are actually decent on the route - I do however agree, it'll probs drop to every 15 mins after the funding ends.
I do wonder, if they'll go for the previous proposed changes, swapping the 4 and 23 around -
4 to Thorney Close
23 - renumbered 22 and to Doxford Park.
Struck me as weird that they were planning to renumber the 23 (presumably due to rerouting/change to terminus?) but not renumber the 4 despite it also having a new terminus.
In terms of frequency cuts, they might be less likely in Sunderland at least as they were already planning to decrease the frequency of most routes pre covid, and they never actually reverted to their full pre-covid frequencies as a result.
RE: Best of the big three? - Michael - 12 Aug 2022
(11 Aug 2022, 11:18 pm)stagecoachbusdepot wrote Struck me as weird that they were planning to renumber the 23 (presumably due to rerouting/change to terminus?) but not renumber the 4 despite it also having a new terminus.
In terms of frequency cuts, they might be less likely in Sunderland at least as they were already planning to decrease the frequency of most routes pre covid, and they never actually reverted to their full pre-covid frequencies as a result.
Aye that's true and tbh, every 12 minutes is still decent, buses are still busy on a morning and afternoon too, despite it being the school holidays.