(16 Apr 2023, 6:48 pm)logidoodah wrote I have always wondered is there a specific list or something of PVRs for each route?

If not how do you work it out? Timings, overlay times, driver changes?

Help is appreciated

• 1: Coach Lane Campus > Benwell/Slatyford - 12 Enviro400
  
• 12: Two Ball Lonnen > Walker/Wallsend - 8 Enviro400/Enviro400H & 2 Enviro300 (10 Enviro400MMC from mid-2023)
  
• 18: Benton > Walker - 3 Enviro400
  
• 22*: Cobalt > Throckley - 17 Enviro400/Enviro400H
  
• 38*: Whickham View > Freeman Hospital - 10 Enviro400/Enviro400H
  
• 39/40: Lemington/Chapel House > Walker/Wallsend - 21 Enviro400MMC
  
• 62/63: Throckley/North Walbottle/Chapel House > Killingworth - 3 Enviro400MMC
  
• X63*: Newcastle > Killingworth - 1 Enviro400 & 2 Enviro300
  
• 317: Wallsend > Whitley Bay - 5 Enviro200
  
• Scholars - 2 Enviro400 
  

• 6/7/8: MetroCentre > Freeman Hospital - 5 Enviro300
  
• 10/11*: West Denton > North Kenton - 1 Enviro400 & 11 Enviro300
  
• 30/31/36: Fawdon > Fenham - 1 Enviro400 & 13 Enviro200MMC
  
• 32/32A: Walker > North Kenton - 6 Enviro200
  
• 35: Newcastle > Red House Farm - 2 Enviro300
  
• X47: Newcastle > Kingston Park - 4 Enviro300
  
• 62/63: Throckley/North Walbottle/Chapel House > Killingworth - 20 Enviro400MMC
  
• 71: Chapel House > Newcastle - 2 Enviro300
  
• 72: Chapel House > Newcastle - 1 Enviro300
  
• 87: Newbiggin Hall > Newcastle - 1 Enviro300
  
• X77/X78/X79/X82: Ponteland/Throckley > Newcastle -  5 Enviro300
  
• X87/X88: Newbiggin Hall > Newcastle - 2 Enviro400 & 3 Enviro300
  
• 685: Newcastle > Carlisle - 2 Enviro300
  

(24 May 2023, 4:38 pm)Andreos1 wrote What I am keen to look at/discuss is the continual decline of the PVR's/fleet size over the years and the correlation it has/may have with declining passenger numbers.

Fleet reductions aren't exclusive to the post-Covid world and has been happening for years (with some operators more than others), but what I don't get is the long-term strategy that operators may have.

* How can saving money by reducing fleet size, increase profit? It may increase margins, but not profit.
* If numbers start to increase and passengers come back to use the poorer service, will that demand lead to a greater PVR or even newer vehicles?
* At what point do operators cut their losses and cease trading? There's no growth, there's no expansion. It's literally tightening the belt a notch at a time.

If anyone does have data that shows depot PVR reductions/fleet sizes over the years, I'd love to see it in all its glory.

(24 May 2023, 4:38 pm)Andreos1 wrote Don't think it's worth creating a new thread (far too many of them), so this seemed the most suitable.

It's clear that operators across the region are reducing their PVR's. With older vehicles coming to the end of their lives, replacements not forthcoming (for whatever reason that may be) and subsequently, frequencies are reducing.

I've made my thoughts on the state of the network clear and I want to make clear, that this specific post isn't relating to the network. 

What I am keen to look at/discuss is the continual decline of the PVR's/fleet size over the years and the correlation it has/may have with declining passenger numbers.

Fleet reductions aren't exclusive to the post-Covid world and has been happening for years (with some operators more than others), but what I don't get is the long-term strategy that operators may have.

* How can saving money by reducing fleet size, increase profit? It may increase margins, but not profit.
* If numbers start to increase and passengers come back to use the poorer service, will that demand lead to a greater PVR or even newer vehicles?
* At what point do operators cut their losses and cease trading? There's no growth, there's no expansion. It's literally tightening the belt a notch at a time.

If anyone does have data that shows depot PVR reductions/fleet sizes over the years, I'd love to see it in all its glory.

(24 May 2023, 10:17 pm)Storx wrote This might come as a bit controversial from me but personally I wouldn't be bothered about some PVR reductions, if the changes were sensible.

Like to pick an example the 1 and X1 between Darlington and Tow Law. There's probably too much capacity there so why not up the 1 to every 20 minutes, ran by Deckers and scrap the X1. You've reduced the PVR but at the same time increased the frequency so it's a win/win.

Other examples are stuff like the 6 and 7 in Hartlepool. Would it really be the end of the world if they were both reduced to every 15 minutes but then allocated Decker's instead. Same / more capacity, less driver's / vehicles and there's no big difference between every 10 and 15 minutes really. Even the likes of the 30/31/36 in Newcastle could arguably fit that then those MMC's could be used to sort out the singles problem if they could get some of the displaced Deckers elsewhere as long as ran the 30/31 all the way through in the West End, a 15 minute service would be more than enough for the core of the route.

There has been some examples of it ie. 1 and 2 at Blyth, X66/X67 merger at Darlington but across the main it's not happening - they're sensible cuts imo. Removing routes altogether on the other hand isn't or reducing frequencies with the same buses as that's leaving no future growth.

(24 May 2023, 4:38 pm)Andreos1 wrote Don't think it's worth creating a new thread (far too many of them), so this seemed the most suitable.

It's clear that operators across the region are reducing their PVR's. With older vehicles coming to the end of their lives, replacements not forthcoming (for whatever reason that may be) and subsequently, frequencies are reducing.

I've made my thoughts on the state of the network clear and I want to make clear, that this specific post isn't relating to the network. 

What I am keen to look at/discuss is the continual decline of the PVR's/fleet size over the years and the correlation it has/may have with declining passenger numbers.

Fleet reductions aren't exclusive to the post-Covid world and has been happening for years (with some operators more than others), but what I don't get is the long-term strategy that operators may have.

* How can saving money by reducing fleet size, increase profit? It may increase margins, but not profit.
* If numbers start to increase and passengers come back to use the poorer service, will that demand lead to a greater PVR or even newer vehicles?
* At what point do operators cut their losses and cease trading? There's no growth, there's no expansion. It's literally tightening the belt a notch at a time.

If anyone does have data that shows depot PVR reductions/fleet sizes over the years, I'd love to see it in all its glory.

(25 May 2023, 8:44 am)Unber43 wrote There is a huge difference between 10 and 15 mins, if its 10 mins if ones late it will only be another 10 mins, so a 20 mins wait, if a 15 min service doesn't run that will be 30 mins, if one doesn't run and the one behind it gets busy that its 15 mins late, then it goes out of service thats a 45 min wait instead of 30. 

10 to 12 is no issue really, its only upto an extra 4-6 mins if one doesn't run (waiting 12, 24, 36 etc).

(25 May 2023, 11:55 am)Storx wrote In fairness though all services should run though, arguably reducing it would help that as you'd have more drivers spare to reduce cancellations. Obviously breakdowns will always be an issue but you could make the argument the engineering have less buses to look after so can better look after buses.

10 minute and more frequent services quite often have stacking issues which you don't tend to get with 15 minute services as no-one goes for a bus 10 minutes early.

(25 May 2023, 11:55 am)Storx wrote In fairness though all services should run though, arguably reducing it would help that as you'd have more drivers spare to reduce cancellations. Obviously breakdowns will always be an issue but you could make the argument the engineering have less buses to look after so can better look after buses.

10 minute and more frequent services quite often have stacking issues which you don't tend to get with 15 minute services as no-one goes for a bus 10 minutes early.

(25 May 2023, 11:55 am)Storx wrote 10 minute and more frequent services quite often have stacking issues which you don't tend to get with 15 minute services as no-one goes for a bus 10 minutes early.

(25 May 2023, 2:33 pm)N1cholas wrote Twirlys do, they start their militarised mission to be first on the 0927 bus around 0900 on a morning and sit and look at their watches until it is time for action, the delight when the 0925 bus is a couple of mins late as they can use it

(25 May 2023, 5:49 pm)F114TML wrote And the 0925 is probably late cos they keep flagging it down and trying their passes on it.

Why do they have to get the 0927? There's plenty of buses afterwards.

(25 May 2023, 3:07 pm)Unber43 wrote Whats the PVR of the GNE 8?

(26 May 2023, 4:00 am)Dan wrote Technically, just 4 in the weekday peak (but off-peak and Saturdays, 6).

Go North East has recently reinstated the full frequency around schools. One bus drops out to do the 28S at school times, another drops out to do the 4.

It’s a smarter, more cost-effective, way of introducing the full frequency at the lowest possible cost - though clearly this does mean a lower frequency is provided during the weekday morning peak (where schools requirement clashes with high demand on the local network).

I wonder if this could be done anywhere else on the network?


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(26 May 2023, 4:00 am)Dan wrote Technically, just 4 in the weekday peak (but off-peak and Saturdays, 6).

Go North East has recently reinstated the full frequency around schools. One bus drops out to do the 28S at school times, another drops out to do the 4.

It’s a smarter, more cost-effective, way of introducing the full frequency at the lowest possible cost - though clearly this does mean a lower frequency is provided during the weekday morning peak (where schools requirement clashes with high demand on the local network).

I wonder if this could be done anywhere else on the network?

(26 May 2023, 6:41 am)Jimmi wrote I can certainly see more of this happening across the board, Arriva are going further down this route again with the 23 losing trips to enable the buses to work the East Durham College contracts in the upcoming timetable changes, service 8A between Ferryhill and Spennymoor being another which will supposedly help to keep this service viable. Arriva have done this in the past in Durham when the likes of the 43 and 56 had dropouts for Durham Johnston School contracts.

(26 May 2023, 9:14 am)Storx wrote Stagecoach has done it for years with 3, 4, 12 and 13 in Sunderland and 22 in Newcastle aswell.

Both run their full route in or out of the city at peak times then drop onto the X1 or 22X from Doxford Park or Cobalt respectively. 

I wouldn't be surprised to see it work on more of the Newcastle / Sunderland routes where they're very busy in one direction but dead in the other direction at peak times. 

The 39/39A with GNE could be a good route for it with shorts running in the peak doing Doxford Park to Sunderland on the 39 route then dropping onto the X20 then dropping back onto another short 39 and repeat. 

I'm surprised there isn't more peak boards ie. a 7.30am peak from Stanley for example which then drops onto a school bus board before going for maintenance for 4 hours then dropping on the later school board and doing the return journey. I believe it's what the X30 does at Ashington nowadays and provides needed peak journeys and a drop during the day when they're most dead.

(25 May 2023, 3:07 pm)Unber43 wrote Whats the PVR of the GNE 8?

(26 May 2023, 6:22 pm)busmanT wrote PVR looks to be 4 according to bustimes.org - 6 buses to run the timetable but with two buses dropping in/out to do schools on the 28S and 4.
5367 and 5399 were the two that did schools around the 8 today 

https://bustimes.org/vehicles/gnel-5399?date=2023-05-26
https://bustimes.org/vehicles/gnel-5367?date=2023-05-26

(27 May 2023, 8:52 pm)Adtrainsam wrote When talking about PVR - does PVR mean the maximum number of vehicles needed to run over a sustained period of time or just the number needed during the M-F peaks? If it's the former, then surely the PVR of the 8 is 6 - as the 2 buses that drop out to do school runs are only for a few hours in the morning/afternoon, whereas most of the day (and on Saturdays) it's 6...