Can anyone think of any issues at all with commerical operators or even contracted services in terms of routing or timetabling that has caused public uproar. I am looking into trying consultancy and advisory work and would really appriecate some good information.

(18 Dec 2020, 7:31 pm)ASX_Terranova wrote Can anyone think of any issues at all with commerical operators or even contracted services in terms of routing or timetabling that has caused public uproar. I am looking into trying consultancy and advisory work and would really appriecate some good information.

There's loads not sure how you want to go back though.

Arriva Marsden to N Tyneside Hospital
Arriva Seaton Valley to N Tyneside Hospital
Arriva Guisborough to Stokesley
GoNorthEast Prudhoe Local Services
GoNorthEast Silksworth Changes (More than once)
GoNorthEast QE to Birtley
GoNorthEast South Tyneside Hospital to Hebburn
GoNorthEast Lukes Lane
GoNorthEast Leechmere Changes

There's a lot more tbh but there's a few, some of the GNE ones are very recent (QE, Leechmere and Silksworth (again))

(18 Dec 2020, 11:17 pm)Storx wrote There's loads not sure how you want to go back though.

1. Arriva Marsden to N Tyneside Hospital
   
2. Arriva Seaton Valley to N Tyneside Hospital
   
3. Arriva Guisborough to Stokesley
   
4. GoNorthEast Prudhoe Local Services
   
5. GoNorthEast Silksworth Changes (More than once)
   
6. GoNorthEast QE to Birtley
   
7. GoNorthEast South Tyneside Hospital to Hebburn
   
8. GoNorthEast Lukes Lane
   
9. GoNorthEast Leechmere Changes
   

There's a lot more tbh but there's a few, some of the GNE ones are very recent (QE, Leechmere and Silksworth (again))

Solutions:
1. Return of 44.
2. Return of 810/811.
3. Crowdfunding for a New Bus Company Run by A forum member in this area.
4. X12 (Newcastle - Non-Stop - Blaydon - Ryton - Crawcrook - Prudhoe (Front Street, Rail Staion & Highfield Estate)
5. Extend 37 to Sunderland via Silksworth (Attachment 2)
6. Return of Service 721.
7. Return of Services 526 or 544 (Might try and look into these more). 
8. Bring Back Services 88 & 531 (Both Hourly)
9. Return of Service 137 (See Attachment 1).

(19 Dec 2020, 9:39 am)ASX_Terranova wrote Solutions:
1. Return of 44.
2. Return of 810/811.
3. Crowdfunding for a New Bus Company Run by A forum member in this area.
4. X12 (Newcastle - Non-Stop - Blaydon - Ryton - Crawcrook - Prudhoe (Front Street, Rail Staion & Highfield Estate)
5. Extend 37 to Sunderland via Silksworth (Attachment 2)
6. Return of Service 721.
7. Return of Services 526 or 544 (Might try and look into these more). 
8. Bring Back Services 88 & 531 (Both Hourly)
9. Return of Service 137 (See Attachment 1).

Some interesting thoughts/ideas there.
Whilst I think reinstating or extending services could be an option, I do think the wider network needs looking at for some of them to work. 

As an example, I was aware of an organisation set up a few years back which was often mentioned on here. 
The Fencehouses Popular Front (FPF), were an action group set up by disgruntled residents of Fencehouses. There were all sorts of schemes planned and plotted to disrupt services across the region. 
Residents had been left with the poor 71 service, which only offered limited options compared to the 21A, 160, 163, 177 and 178 which it 'replaced'. 
Similarly, the X94 and X3/X4 offered a lot more than the then the M1 which took its place. 
Whilst the 4 and its increase in frequency is appreciated, it still doesn't allow residents of a wide area direct routes to Newcastle or Gateshead and therefore both journey times and fares are a lot greater than they once were. 

Reinstating a service from/via Fencehouses to Newcastle or Gateshead would conflict with the 21 or X1, depending which route it took. Even though it would be popular and could see the FPF cease its attacks. 

A while back, I brought probability in to the forum and questioned whether or not a shared corridor and the ratio of services along the route had any impact on the success or longevity of some routes. The two corridors I brought up at the time were Newcastle Road and Ryhope/Stockton Road. I predicted the likes of the infrequent X3 and 238 would go and the more frequent services would last. 
Using Eldon Square - Harlow Green as an example: Per hour there are - 8x 21, 2x X21, 2x 25 and 2x X12.
Ratio/probability will be 8:2:2:2. If you're waiting for the first bus to rock up, chances are it will be the 21. The other buses are an option if there's no 21 at the stand. But the probability of that happening is very low. 
Stick in a twice hourly 21A in to the mix and there's still more of chance of boarding a 21 to Harlow Green than any of the other individual services. 

That's forgetting any marketing/route branding and brand or operator preference.

If you look at your 721 example, you're potentially going to see the same pattern on Old Durham Road and Durham Road. 
Whilst there will be punters needing to get to/from the QE from various parts Birtley, I don't think that will be enough to sustain the service.
Between Chester and Birtley the ratio is 8:2:2:1 (21, X21, X12 and X22). Add the 721 in to the picture and you've got 8:2:2:1:1. The 21 is in all probability going to sweep the passengers up travelling between the two points with both options.
It will be a similar pattern between Newcastle/Gateshead and the QE or the QE and Wrekenton where the frequent X1 and 56 is the dominant force and you have the other local services such as the 57 and 58 dropping in and out of the mix.

(19 Dec 2020, 11:08 am)Andreos1 wrote Some interesting thoughts/ideas there.
Whilst I think reinstating or extending services could be an option, I do think the wider network needs looking at for some of them to work. 

As an example, I was aware of an organisation set up a few years back which was often mentioned on here. 
The Fencehouses Popular Front (FPF), were an action group set up by disgruntled residents of Fencehouses. There were all sorts of schemes planned and plotted to disrupt services across the region. 
Residents had been left with the poor 71 service, which only offered limited options compared to the 21A, 160, 163, 177 and 178 which it 'replaced'. 
Similarly, the X94 and X3/X4 offered a lot more than the then the M1 which took its place. 
Whilst the 4 and its increase in frequency is appreciated, it still doesn't allow residents of a wide area direct routes to Newcastle or Gateshead and therefore both journey times and fares are a lot greater than they once were. 

Reinstating a service from/via Fencehouses to Newcastle or Gateshead would conflict with the 21 or X1, depending which route it took. Even though it would be popular and could see the FPF cease its attacks. 

A while back, I brought probability in to the forum and questioned whether or not a shared corridor and the ratio of services along the route had any impact on the success or longevity of some routes. The two corridors I brought up at the time were Newcastle Road and Ryhope/Stockton Road. I predicted the likes of the infrequent X3 and 238 would go and the more frequent services would last. 
Using Eldon Square - Harlow Green as an example: Per hour there are - 6x 21, 2x X21, 2x 25 and 2x X12.
Ratio/probability will be 6:2:2:2. If you're waiting for the first bus to rock up, chances are it will be the 21. The other buses are an option if there's no 21 at the stand. But the probability of that happening is very low. 
Stick in a twice hourly 21A in to the mix and there's still more of chance of boarding a 21 to Harlow Green than any of the other individual services. 

That's forgetting any marketing/route branding and brand or operator preference.

If you look at your 721 example, you're potentially going to see the same pattern on Old Durham Road and Durham Road. 
Whilst there will be punters needing to get to/from the QE from various parts Birtley, I don't think that will be enough to sustain the service.
Between Chester and Birtley the ratio is 6:2:2:1 (21, X21, X12 and X22). Add the 721 in to the picture and you've got 6:2:2:1:1. The 21 is in all probability going to sweep the passengers up travelling between the two points with both options.
It will be a similar pattern between Newcastle/Gateshead and the QE or the QE and Wrekenton where the frequent X1 and 56 is the dominant force and you have the other local services such as the 57 and 58 dropping in and out of the mix.

Surely the better option would be to just extend some of the short 21's instead, there's 6 of them you could do something with rather than sticking another service on top of them. (There's 8 21's btw not 6 (every 7.5 mins)).

For the North Tyneside Hospital from S. Valley restoring the 57 to North Shields would be the easiest option and the QE to Birtley restoring the 25 along there. The bottom half already has an hourly service btw with the 28 it's Portobello etc where the complaints are coming from.

(19 Dec 2020, 12:00 pm)Storx wrote Surely the better option would be to just extend some of the short 21's instead, there's 6 of them you could do something with rather than sticking another service on top of them. (There's 8 21's btw not 6 (every 7.5 mins)).

For the North Tyneside Hospital from S. Valley restoring the 57 to North Shields would be the easiest option and the QE to Birtley restoring the 25 along there. The bottom half already has an hourly service btw with the 28 it's Portobello etc where the complaints are coming from.

I'll fix my numbers
Although the point about probability is only enhanced. 

To be fair, the 28 misses out a big chunk of Birtley. Emerging on to Durham Road at the Station Road junction, it doesn't serve the majority of the shops and obviously you've got the likes of Barley Mow, Vigo, Portmeads etc who don't have a direct bus to the hospital (excluding the inept 925 which skirts the fringes of two of those three estates).

The 81/82 allows connections to each of the three areas from the 28 (although there's no common stop and it means crossing two roads or walking up Orchard Terrace) and with the 81/82 being a one-way loop, it means residents in the new houses can't actually get a GNE bus TO Birtley and connect to the 28.

The stop opposite the library/cenotaph which is the one opportunity for the 81/82 and 28 to share a common stop - doesn't have the 81/82 stopping there and is pretty exposed compared to others.
Obviously this means a walk down Orchard Terrace or a walk from outside Lloyd's Bank.

Can anyone on the forum back up the issues in South Tyneside

(19 Dec 2020, 2:22 pm)ASX_Terranova wrote Can anyone on the forum back up the issues in South Tyneside

I'm South Tyneside and the simple answer here is lack of passengers.  No passengers and no competition.  Only really SNE and GNE the main operators here. GNE greatly reduced their services when withdrew from South Shields. We really need a 3rd competing operator to make the other 2 stand up and take notice but sadly the custom is not there. H1 and H2 from Hebburn to South Tyneside Hospital need to be looked at and merged into one service operating longer into the evening (post covid) or merging and introducing a new service altogether

(19 Dec 2020, 4:19 pm)ifm001 wrote I'm South Tyneside and the simple answer here is lack of passengers.  No passengers and no competition.  Only really SNE and GNE the main operators here. GNE greatly reduced their services when withdrew from South Shields. We really need a 3rd competing operator to make the other 2 stand up and take notice but sadly the custom is not there. H1 and H2 from Hebburn to South Tyneside Hospital need to be looked at and merged into one service operating longer into the evening (post covid) or merging and introducing a new service altogether

Surely the biggest problem is that there's too much competition and people are using the Metro instead which is much quicker than an alternative bus so there's not much left to go around and sharing the small share between 2 operators there's just nothing there to make money bar the obvious routes (E1, E2, E6, 20, 27, 35, 50) which bridge the gaps in the Metro not to mention that there is a river in between with very very little service crossing it.

(19 Dec 2020, 4:41 pm)Storx wrote Surely the biggest problem is that there's too much competition and people are using the Metro instead which is much quicker than an alternative bus so there's not much left to go around and sharing the small share between 2 operators there's just nothing there to make money bar the obvious routes (E1, E2, E6, 20, 27, 35, 50) which bridge the gaps in the Metro not to mention that there is a river in between with very very little service crossing it.

Just because the metro goes to South Shields does mean it covers the vast areas of it.  Main areas of services 3, 4, 7, 8, 12, 17 and 30 are not served by metro.
The issue is the core services of 3, 4, 7, 8, 17, and 18 are midibus operated every 10 mins (pre covid) . SNE operate via contract to Nexus into Jarrow but not Hebburn.  If the core services were reduced to 20 mins and operated by double decker (not sure on fuel efficie cy vs vehicle or anything) that would release prob 6 to 10 drivers amd vehicleswhich would enable an introduction of other new services which could extend into the areas that are neglected by GNE. But again if the passengers arent there for GNE what's to say they would be there for SNE.  Personally I believe SNE should trial a service commercially into Jarrow and Hebburn and see if there is any potential.

(19 Dec 2020, 4:19 pm)ifm001 wrote I'm South Tyneside and the simple answer here is lack of passengers.  No passengers and no competition.  Only really SNE and GNE the main operators here. GNE greatly reduced their services when withdrew from South Shields. We really need a 3rd competing operator to make the other 2 stand up and take notice but sadly the custom is not there. H1 and H2 from Hebburn to South Tyneside Hospital need to be looked at and merged into one service operating longer into the evening (post covid) or merging and introducing a new service altogether

I dunno if there's a lack of passengers. The population is huge. Just look at the vast number of housing estates in Shields alone.
I think it's a case of the buses not going where people are going.

The model is such, that the majority all feed in to the same areas they have done for the last 40 odd years when people shopped on King St, worked at Westoe or in the yards.
Except the yards and pit have gone and King Street is... well... King Street.

(19 Dec 2020, 4:55 pm)ifm001 wrote Just because the metro goes to South Shields does mean it covers the vast areas of it.  Main areas of services 3, 4, 7, 8, 12, 17 and 30 are not served by metro.
The issue is the core services of 3, 4, 7, 8, 17, and 18 are midibus operated every 10 mins (pre covid) . SNE operate via contract to Nexus into Jarrow but not Hebburn.  If the core services were reduced to 20 mins and operated by double decker (not sure on fuel efficie cy vs vehicle or anything) that would release prob 6 to 10 drivers amd vehicleswhich would enable an introduction of other new services which could extend into the areas that are neglected by GNE. But again if the passengers arent there for GNE what's to say they would be there for SNE.  Personally I believe SNE should trial a service commercially into Jarrow and Hebburn and see if there is any potential.

It was more about though do people really want to go to Jarrow and Hebburn though or are most people actually travelling to Newcastle and beyond and are just using the bus to connect to a Metro station at Chichester or Jarrow with the 10 and 11 etc. For example someone going to  Hebburn they could easily just hop on the bus to Chichester or Jarrow and then just use the Metro from there for what little demand there will be. I'm guessing most people will have Network One pass though unless they live their live entirely in South Shields and will use both anyway.

The areas which are further away from the Metro have the 11 and 12 running through them pretty much bridging the gap then if you want to travel beyond Jarrow then you'd change to the Metro. It's same for someone from Hebburn if they wanted to travel to say South Shields they'd get their local service to Hebburn Metro then change there rather than sitting on a bus for 35 minutes with the X34 offering an express to Newcastle for those who don't want the change but good luck if you want it in an evening as it doesn't exist.

To me the bigger problem is the confusion for multi modal tickets. Network One tickets are just confusing for someone who never uses buses especially now you can't actually buy them outside of Metro stations and it's where we badly need some form of Smartcard like Oyster, MCard (Leeds), GetMeThere (Manchester), Swift (West Midlands) and so on. Pop should be the answer but Nexus are only bothered about the Metro. We must be the only area in the country where in 2020 you can't buy a bus and tram/rail ticket on the internet.

(19 Dec 2020, 7:30 pm)Storx wrote It was more about though do people really want to go to Jarrow and Hebburn though or are most people actually travelling to Newcastle and beyond and are just using the bus to connect to a Metro station at Chichester or Jarrow with the 10 and 11 etc. For example someone going to  Hebburn they could easily just hop on the bus to Chichester or Jarrow and then just use the Metro from there for what little demand there will be. I'm guessing most people will have Network One pass though unless they live their live entirely in South Shields and will use both anyway.

The areas which are further away from the Metro have the 11 and 12 running through them pretty much bridging the gap then if you want to travel beyond Jarrow then you'd change to the Metro. It's same for someone from Hebburn if they wanted to travel to say South Shields they'd get their local service to Hebburn Metro then change there rather than sitting on a bus for 35 minutes with the X34 offering an express to Newcastle for those who don't want the change but good luck if you want it in an evening as it doesn't exist.

To me the bigger problem is the confusion for multi modal tickets. Network One tickets are just confusing for someone who never uses buses especially now you can't actually buy them outside of Metro stations and it's where we badly need some form of Smartcard like Oyster, MCard (Leeds), GetMeThere (Manchester), Swift (West Midlands) and so on. Pop should be the answer but Nexus are only bothered about the Metro. We must be the only area in the country where in 2020 you can't buy a bus and tram/rail ticket on the internet.

Pretty sure you can order a network one online, you can buy them on the 3 major bus operators apps.

(19 Dec 2020, 8:55 pm)deanmachine wrote Pretty sure you can order a network one online, you can buy them on the 3 major bus operators apps.

Most people don't want a ticket on their app though as it's just a pain in the neck especially when phones die etc. M Tickets aren't the future for ticketing and never will be, offer it as an alternative but it shouldn't be the only option. Also it's only the GNE app where you can buy 4 weekly tickets, yet again more confusion for people and you can't get the yearly ones on there neither. Infact for yearly tickets I don't even know where you get them from as you need a photocard number but you can't get a photocard (unless you travel to Sunderland)... Total mess it's almost Nexus and Network One didn't talk to each other when they shut all the travelshops down. They should be smartcards and should've been for at least 5 year now.

Down in the West Midlands you can pay by direct debit so you don't have to mess about at all, that's what it should be like.

Interesting debate this. My view on Hebburn is that you’ve got swathes of new housing being built but all are designed for car users and most are indeed car users, so the increase in population isn’t really an increase in bus users and when those people do commute they’d prefer to stand on a metro to Newcastle for 13 minutes (by which time the 27 is still in Hebburn on it’s torturous route through Luke’s Lane)

The likes of Hebburn in particular is that it’s moving away from being a place of employment and industry to essentially a commuter town so people aren’t looking to make local journeys (outside concessionary pass holders) but more point to point

On the earlier point of the 721, it didn’t really compete Durham Rd wise as it served Elizabethville and Barley Mow which the the 23 sort of replaced but didn’t. Birtley used to have an excellent local network with the original 23 going up into Sanders Gardens and Birtley East school (now a taxi bus service) alongside the 184 and direct links to Sunderland (777) and South Shields (551) and more regular services to Ouston and direct services to Stanley (709/728) again Birtley is seeing that shift to commuter town status

(19 Dec 2020, 7:30 pm)Storx wrote It was more about though do people really want to go to Jarrow and Hebburn though or are most people actually travelling to Newcastle and beyond and are just using the bus to connect to a Metro station at Chichester or Jarrow with the 10 and 11 etc. For example someone going to  Hebburn they could easily just hop on the bus to Chichester or Jarrow and then just use the Metro from there for what little demand there will be. I'm guessing most people will have Network One pass though unless they live their live entirely in South Shields and will use both anyway.

The areas which are further away from the Metro have the 11 and 12 running through them pretty much bridging the gap then if you want to travel beyond Jarrow then you'd change to the Metro. It's same for someone from Hebburn if they wanted to travel to say South Shields they'd get their local service to Hebburn Metro then change there rather than sitting on a bus for 35 minutes with the X34 offering an express to Newcastle for those who don't want the change but good luck if you want it in an evening as it doesn't exist. 

To me the bigger problem is the confusion for multi modal tickets. Network One tickets are just confusing for someone who never uses buses especially now you can't actually buy them outside of Metro stations and it's where we badly need some form of Smartcard like Oyster, MCard (Leeds), GetMeThere (Manchester), Swift (West Midlands) and so on. Pop should be the answer but Nexus are only bothered about the Metro. We must be the only area in the country where in 2020 you can't buy a bus and tram/rail ticket on the internet.

I think the key is to finding where the cars are heading to. Not just in the morning and evening peaks, but beyond that. 

The Port of Tyne is a huge employer for residents of South Tyneside, as is the likes of Nissan.
For someone living in Whiteleas or Biddick Hall and on a shift pattern, is there any reliable public transport provision which would cover them to Tyne Dock or Nissan? Of course not.
Never mind two huge residential areas, you can't even do those journeys from the likes of Chichester or Boldon Colliery and they're not far from either of those two key employment sites. 

It's very similar for someone living in Marsden and working somewhere in Newcastle, such as the Business Park. 
Do you faff on getting a bus in to Shields and subsequently being at the whim of the Metro and the 22 or 12 (never mind any confusion of the various ticketing options or validity)? 
Do you go around the world on an X34 and look for a connection at the other end or do you drive in? 

Ticketing, pricing, the existing network and convenience.
That's where the problem lies imo.
The passengers are there, it's just the operators don't know what to do with them. Even though they think they do.
Except they don't - which is backed up with the ever regular decline in passenger numbers.

(19 Dec 2020, 11:54 pm)Ambassador wrote Interesting debate this. My view on Hebburn is that you’ve got swathes of new housing being built but all are designed for car users and most are indeed car users, so the increase in population isn’t really an increase in bus users and when those people do commute they’d prefer to stand on a metro to Newcastle for 13 minutes (by which time the 27 is still in Hebburn on it’s torturous route through Luke’s Lane)

The likes of Hebburn in particular is that it’s moving away from being a place of employment and industry to essentially a commuter town so people aren’t looking to make local journeys (outside concessionary pass holders) but more point to point

On the earlier point of the 721, it didn’t really compete Durham Rd wise as it served Elizabethville and Barley Mow which the the 23 sort of replaced but didn’t. Birtley used to have an excellent local network with the original 23 going up into Sanders Gardens and Birtley East school (now a taxi bus service) alongside the 184 and direct links to Sunderland (777) and South Shields (551) and more regular services to Ouston and direct services to Stanley (709/728) again Birtley is seeing that shift to commuter town status

Yeah agreed with the new housing it's the same up this way. Gosforth Park being one where they pretty much isn't a bus service at all to the place, the same as the new housing estates they're building in Cramlington.

Wrote a bit more on the commuter town below.

(20 Dec 2020, 12:08 am)Andreos1 wrote I think the key is to finding where the cars are heading to. Not just in the morning and evening peaks, but beyond that. 

The Port of Tyne is a huge employer for residents of South Tyneside, as is the likes of Nissan.
For someone living in Whiteleas or Biddick Hall and on a shift pattern, is there any reliable public transport provision which would cover them to Tyne Dock or Nissan? Of course not.
Never mind two huge residential areas, you can't even do those journeys from the likes of Chichester or Boldon Colliery and they're not far from either of those two key employment sites. 

It's very similar for someone living in Marsden and working somewhere in Newcastle, such as the Business Park. 
Do you faff on getting a bus in to Shields and subsequently being at the whim of the Metro and the 22 or 12 (never mind any confusion of the various ticketing options or validity)? 
Do you go around the world on an X34 and look for a connection at the other end or do you drive in? 

Ticketing, pricing, the existing network and convenience.
That's where the problem lies imo.
The passengers are there, it's just the operators don't know what to do with them. Even though they think they do.
Except they don't - which is backed up with the ever regular decline in passenger numbers.

Yeah agreed there, it's almost as the network is stuck back in 1980 for me serving places that were popular back then but not so much nowadays with noticeable places being pretty much unserved. Shopping without a car must be an absolute nightmare for most people like talking about South Shields if you wanted an ASDA you'd probably want to go to the one at Boldon but you can't get there; some clothes shopping Silverlink or Washington (no service / v little to both). There's 10 buses to South Shields though or you can go to Sunderland either which isn't exactly much better. Sainsburys, Washington Galleries (can't get there). Buggar it I'll drive.

It's the same as Birtley, most people there will either shop at Team Valley or The Metro Centre but can you get to either of them, nope not without changes infact you can't get to really anywhere to the Metro Centre from the North or South bar the token X22 service.

Live in the West End want to go to the Metro Centre; that's a trip to Newcastle then back out. Speaking of that I was speaking to someone in the West End and they shopped at ASDA at Byker (which was like eh). But they said it's the only supermarket you can actually get to from the West Road / Elswick (bar Morrisons at Cowgate but it's small and has a limited range). Even known there's an ASDA at Metro Centre and Gosforth, Tesco Gateshead and Kingston Park, Morrisons Blaydon, M&S Kingston Park etc but none of them are accesible from there. Then they wonder why people drive.

Not to mention there's no bus service from the West End at all to Newcastle / Newburn Business Parks (an employment site), never mind struggling from South Shields.

(Tounge in cheek the 50 serves Nissan from most the places you said )

(18 Dec 2020, 11:17 pm)Storx wrote There's loads not sure how you want to go back though.

Arriva Marsden to N Tyneside Hospital
Arriva Seaton Valley to N Tyneside Hospital
Arriva Guisborough to Stokesley
GoNorthEast Prudhoe Local Services
GoNorthEast Silksworth Changes (More than once)
GoNorthEast QE to Birtley
GoNorthEast South Tyneside Hospital to Hebburn
GoNorthEast Lukes Lane
GoNorthEast Leechmere Changes

There's a lot more tbh but there's a few, some of the GNE ones are very recent (QE, Leechmere and Silksworth (again))

Had the chance to replace this, we tried to tick as many boxes as we could within the limits of one driver and bus. The majority of our regular passengers are people from Stokesley & Great Ayton travelling to Guisborough for shopping, we take a few school kids from Guisborough to Stokesley School as well. We tried to open up the Guisborough to Saltburn market too, it's quiet at present but looked promising in September, hopefully in the summer it will come back - we get a few from Stokesley to Saltburn and vice versa too but it is pretty much two separate markets.

(19 Dec 2020, 11:54 pm)Ambassador wrote Interesting debate this. My view on Hebburn is that you’ve got swathes of new housing being built but all are designed for car users and most are indeed car users, so the increase in population isn’t really an increase in bus users and when those people do commute they’d prefer to stand on a metro to Newcastle for 13 minutes (by which time the 27 is still in Hebburn on it’s torturous route through Luke’s Lane)

The likes of Hebburn in particular is that it’s moving away from being a place of employment and industry to essentially a commuter town so people aren’t looking to make local journeys (outside concessionary pass holders) but more point to point

On the earlier point of the 721, it didn’t really compete Durham Rd wise as it served Elizabethville and Barley Mow which the the 23 sort of replaced but didn’t. Birtley used to have an excellent local network with the original 23 going up into Sanders Gardens and Birtley East school (now a taxi bus service) alongside the 184 and direct links to Sunderland (777) and South Shields (551) and more regular services to Ouston and direct services to Stanley (709/728) again Birtley is seeing that shift to commuter town status

I've read back and realise what I was saying didn't come across too clearly. I meant the section south of Barley Mow through North Lodge etc. 

I'm still amazed that developers are designing estates for car users, particularly as there are all sorts of measures in place for councils to implement specific rules and regs in relation to public transport. 
Similarly, I'm flabbergasted that bus operators don't look to encourage that switch in those areas. 

The new housing in Birtley has the 81/82 coming through on a one-way loop (from Birtley, but not taking them to Birtley), but at the same time residents have seen the 25 (which skirts the estate) adapt its route and make getting in to Newcastle less attractive. 
No wonder car use is on the increase.

(20 Dec 2020, 12:54 am)Storx wrote Yeah agreed with the new housing it's the same up this way. Gosforth Park being one where they pretty much isn't a bus service at all to the place, the same as the new housing estates they're building in Cramlington.

Wrote a bit more on the commuter town below.


Yeah agreed there, it's almost as the network is stuck back in 1980 for me serving places that were popular back then but not so much nowadays with noticeable places being pretty much unserved. Shopping without a car must be an absolute nightmare for most people like talking about South Shields if you wanted an ASDA you'd probably want to go to the one at Boldon but you can't get there; some clothes shopping Silverlink or Washington (no service / v little to both). There's 10 buses to South Shields though or you can go to Sunderland either which isn't exactly much better. Sainsburys, Washington Galleries (can't get there). Buggar it I'll drive.

It's the same as Birtley, most people there will either shop at Team Valley or The Metro Centre but can you get to either of them, nope not without changes infact you can't get to really anywhere to the Metro Centre from the North or South bar the token X22 service.

Live in the West End want to go to the Metro Centre; that's a trip to Newcastle then back out. Speaking of that I was speaking to someone in the West End and they shopped at ASDA at Byker (which was like eh). But they said it's the only supermarket you can actually get to from the West Road / Elswick (bar Morrisons at Cowgate but it's small and has a limited range). Even known there's an ASDA at Metro Centre and Gosforth, Tesco Gateshead and Kingston Park, Morrisons Blaydon, M&S Kingston Park etc but none of them are accesible from there. Then they wonder why people drive.

Not to mention there's no bus service from the West End at all to Newcastle / Newburn Business Parks (an employment site), never mind struggling from South Shields.

(Tounge in cheek the 50 serves Nissan from most the places you said )

I think some of the examples you mention, really rams home how ineffective public transport can be in the region and no matter how funky and fancy the buses are - people won't use them if they can't get to the places they need to. 

I'm glad you mentioned the 50. I specifically used that example and the places too, referring to the variety of shifts on offer at the likes of Nissan or Tyne Dock.
The 50 may allow them to get to work if they're on a 9-5, Mon-Fri. There's mot much chance of them getting the 50 if they're on something like back shift, night shift or working on a Sunday.
If they can't use the 50 for thr majority of the shifts they're working - why bother at all?
You may as well make the investment and drive in, utilising the car for weekend trips to the shops (can't get a bus there either) and for days out too (why waste the day hanging around for connections?).

(20 Dec 2020, 11:07 am)Andreos1 wrote I'm still amazed that developers are designing estates for car users, particularly as there are all sorts of measures in place for councils to implement specific rules and regs in relation to public transport. 
Similarly, I'm flabbergasted that bus operators don't look to encourage that switch in those areas. 

The new housing in Birtley has the 81/82 coming through on a one-way loop, but at the same time residents have seen the 25 (which skirts the estate) adapt its route and make getting in to Newcastle less attractive. 

The starting prices of some of those new Northside homes is upwards of £260k - it's unlikely that no matter how many initiatives the council have that they'll ever make the switch and that's the problem.
There's no incentive to use public transport - you're talking 45 minutes from Birtley's new estates to Newcastle but the counter is even if an all singing dancing express came in, people still wouldn't use it.

I think we'll see some form of DRT up here (outside of Teesside) - it'll fail  but they'll trial it.

(20 Dec 2020, 12:45 pm)Ambassador wrote The starting prices of some of those new Northside homes is upwards of £260k - it's unlikely that no matter how many initiatives the council have that they'll ever make the switch and that's the problem.
There's no incentive to use public transport - you're talking 45 minutes from Birtley's new estates to Newcastle but the counter is even if an all singing dancing express came in, people still wouldn't use it.

I think we'll see some form of DRT up here (outside of Teesside) - it'll fail  but they'll trial it.

But operators can do their bit locally. It doesn't have to be an all signing, all dancing express service which goes between Northside and Newcastle - it just needs to be something which works for the residents.
As an example, the kids can't get a bus along to Lord Lawson on a morning and they can't get the bus home. So mammy and daddy take them in the car. Then the habit has the potential to become ingrained. 

Mammy can't get the bus to the shops or post office to return her latest asos delivery, after dropping the little un off at Ravensworth Terrace, so they use the car instead.

Daddy would leave the car and get the bus to his office job on Team Valley, but the trip is two buses in each direction and can take twice as long as it does in the car.

If that situation is repeated half a dozen times, in the various parts of Birtley (which it can quite easily be), then that's 30/40 extra cars on the road (on top of the traffic travelling to or through Birtley) causing issues to the various bus routes in Birtley.
Look at replicating a similar situation across T&W and no wonder we see all sorts of traffic problems and delays.
Ah and the endless harping on about needing bus priority measures.

If the operators served the market and potential market in the way passengers and potential passengers need, want and expect - maybe we wouldn't see the endless harping on about needing bus priority measures.

I was doing some consultancy work with a company who were struggling to identify and therefore meet their customers needs, wants and expectations prior to lockdown.
It was amazing to see the measures we put in to place kicking in and the subsequent adaptations they made once lockdown kicked in.

(20 Dec 2020, 1:02 pm)Andreos1 wrote But operators can do their bit locally. It doesn't have to be an all signing, all dancing express service which goes between Northside and Newcastle - it just needs to be something which works for the residents.
As an example, the kids can't get a bus along to Lord Lawson on a morning and they can't get the bus home. So mammy and daddy take them in the car. Then the habit has the potential to become ingrained. 

Mammy can't get the bus to the shops or post office to return her latest asos delivery, after dropping the little un off at Ravensworth Terrace, so they use the car instead.

Daddy would leave the car and get the bus to his office job on Team Valley, but the trip is two buses in each direction and can take twice as long as it does in the car.

If that situation is repeated half a dozen times, in the various parts of Birtley (which it can quite easily be), then that's 30/40 extra cars on the road (on top of the traffic travelling to or through Birtley) causing issues to the various bus routes in Birtley.
Look at replicating a similar situation across T&W and no wonder we see all sorts of traffic problems and delays.
Ah and the endless harping on about needing bus priority measures.

If the operators served the market and potential market in the way passengers and potential passengers need, want and expect - maybe we wouldn't see the endless harping on about needing bus priority measures.

I was doing some consultancy work with a company who were struggling to identify and therefore meet their customers needs, wants and expectations prior to lockdown.
It was amazing to see the measures we put in to place kicking in and the subsequent adaptations they made once lockdown kicked in.

When I was looking at moving, having access to good, frequent public transport (preferably GNE because of ticketing) was at the top of the list of priorities, and to be honest it was surprisingly challenging.

My mother lives in Crook, and despite it looking like they have pretty good links on the surface, from her house it's a 1 mile walk to get the bus to Durham, and a half mile walk to get the bus to Bishop/Darlington. That was enough to stop me using the bus at all for the couple years that I lived there.

When I was up in Gateshead and had a 10 minute frequency service with the 49, I'd use the bus all the time, it was often faster and easier than using the car, especially if going to Gateshead or even Newcastle on the half hourly X30, the fact that the bus stop was basically 30 seconds from the front door was great too! So like I say, when moving that was my number one priority.

So when searching for the house, I basically just followed the bus routes until I found an area that was tolerable (yes, I had my standards set quite low because frequent buses tend to run through dodgy areas!)

It's funny we keep talking about buses here but it's crying out for a train to link all these places we've been mentioning. There's literally a line already there. If we reopened the Leamside Line which has been mooted for ages and actually would be beneficial but at same restore the link from Drum Ind. Estate in Birtley linking to the Leamside you've got a perfect loop service linking them all with stops like:

Newcastle, Saltwell (Team Valley North), Chowdene Bank (Team Valley South), Birtley (Perfect for Ouston to connect), Barley Mow, Rickleton / Harraton (Perfect for Rolls Royce / BAE), Fatfield, Barmston (Washington), Usworth (Perfect for Nissan with a bus link), Follingsby Park (Perfect for the new Amazon), Wardley, Heworth (Metro Connection), Gateshead Quays (Perfect for new arena), Newcastle... repeat

One railway line and you've pretty much linked all the major employment sites South of the Tyne and most of the line is already there infact bar about 100m in Washington with a R'bout it's all there. The link from the ECML / the new line might be a difficult though but should be doable.

Apart from Chowdene to Drum it's pretty much passing consistantly through urban areas which all have really poor bus connections currently. You could easily build P&R sites at Whitemare Poor / Chowdene Bank aswell to get cars out the urban areas as people might actually use them if it's quicker which it would be.

(20 Dec 2020, 6:42 pm)Storx wrote It's funny we keep talking about buses here but it's crying out for a train to link all these places we've been mentioning. There's literally a line already there. If we reopened the Leamside Line which has been mooted for ages and actually would be beneficial but at same restore the link from Drum Ind. Estate in Birtley linking to the Leamside you've got a perfect loop service linking them all with stops like:

Newcastle, Saltwell (Team Valley North), Chowdene Bank (Team Valley South), Birtley (Perfect for Ouston to connect), Barley Mow, Rickleton / Harraton (Perfect for Rolls Royce / BAE), Fatfield, Barmston (Washington), Usworth (Perfect for Nissan with a bus link), Follingsby Park (Perfect for the new Amazon), Wardley, Heworth (Metro Connection), Gateshead Quays (Perfect for new arena), Newcastle... repeat

One railway line and you've pretty much linked all the major employment sites South of the Tyne and most of the line is already there infact bar about 100m in Washington with a R'bout it's all there. The link from the ECML / the new line might be a difficult though but should be doable.

Apart from Chowdene to Drum it's pretty much passing consistantly through urban areas which all have really poor bus connections currently. You could easily build P&R sites at Whitemare Poor / Chowdene Bank aswell to get cars out the urban areas as people might actually use them if it's quicker which it would be.

Personally, I'd pick a slower, but more convenient bus service any day of the week! Chances are the train isn't within a short walking distance of the the house, so I'd be getting the bus to the train station, the getting the train, then probably just getting another bus from that train station to where I actually want to be.

To me, all that faff just isn't worth it unless it's cutting a 2 hour journey to a half hour journey.

(20 Dec 2020, 6:46 pm)streetdeckfan wrote Personally, I'd pick a slower, but more convenient bus service any day of the week! Chances are the train isn't within a short walking distance of the the house, so I'd be getting the bus to the train station, the getting the train, then probably just getting another bus from that train station to where I actually want to be.

To me, all that faff just isn't worth it unless it's cutting a 2 hour journey to a half hour journey.

tbf though most those places don't have a bus alternative anyway:

• Fallowfield has the 4 but that's a change to Newcastle somewhere.
  
• Barlow Mow has the 25 but it doesn't connect to Team Valley and it's slow.
  
• Harraton and Rickleton you'd have to get the 2 or 81 and change at Washington.
  
• Follingsby Park doesn't have a bus service at all.
  
• Teal Farm doesn't really have a bus service at all either.
  
• Usworth has the 56 but it takes 50 minutes to Newcastle.
  

From Fallowfield etc which are quite large communities you'd journey times down quite a bit.

It's about going the other way aswell though like from Gosforth to Nissan right now is nigh on impossible with the train there the Metro / Train would take about 30 - 35 minutes then you'd have a 5 minute bus which is reasonable and would quicker be than a car. Right now you'd have to drive really unless you got to Metro to Gateshead then sit on the 56 for 45 minutes which is unreasonable. Heck you could even extend the Pelaw shorts (using the battery) through to Washington and give a direct train at peaks from the Regent Centre / Monkseaton to Nissan

Oh and Fenceshouses would get to a train quicker since they're always moaning

(20 Dec 2020, 5:55 pm)streetdeckfan wrote When I was looking at moving, having access to good, frequent public transport (preferably GNE because of ticketing) was at the top of the list of priorities, and to be honest it was surprisingly challenging.

My mother lives in Crook, and despite it looking like they have pretty good links on the surface, from her house it's a 1 mile walk to get the bus to Durham, and a half mile walk to get the bus to Bishop/Darlington. That was enough to stop me using the bus at all for the couple years that I lived there.

When I was up in Gateshead and had a 10 minute frequency service with the 49, I'd use the bus all the time, it was often faster and easier than using the car, especially if going to Gateshead or even Newcastle on the half hourly X30, the fact that the bus stop was basically 30 seconds from the front door was great too! So like I say, when moving that was my number one priority.

So when searching for the house, I basically just followed the bus routes until I found an area that was tolerable (yes, I had my standards set quite low because frequent buses tend to run through dodgy areas!) 

I've followed a similar pattern in the past, with the last three houses I've bought. 
Made very little difference in the grand scheme of things, as with two of those houses we lost a number of links - including direct ones to Newcastle.

When I bought a house in Durham, the motorway, station and bus routes were all factors. 

However our priorities could be different to someone elses. Schools, nightlife, retail, employment and whatever else might be the things someone else looks at and public transport may be at the very bottom of the list.
If public transport is at the bottom of the list, operators can either do something about it and make the provision appealing (see the mention of the new estate in Birtley and the ludicrous one way loop of the 81/82 which means residents can't use the bus to the shops and the decision to increase journey times on the 25) or just not bother. 

I've not lived in Birtley for almost 30 years, but having returned on a regular basis to see friends and family the transport provision is one I've kept an eye on.  Apart from deciding to live near a school with a decent reputation and having family nearby, one of the reasons my folks bought a house there - was access to public transport for both commuting and for non-driving family members to see them and then the family when we born. They decided to remain a one car household and managed to do so for almost 15 years.
That was a decision they made in the 1970s.

As a kid growing up, there was the 26, 721, 727 and later the 777 which stopped 5/10mins away.
The 551 was a bit further to walk, as was the 725, 726, 183 and a minibus which ran up Vigo Lane and operated between Chester and Washington (can't remember the number). 
The number of cars per household was a lot lower than now - yet there wasn't a bus which entered the estate and made life easier or stopped my Mam dragging me down to Presto and then back up Harras Bank.
There was the option of getting a bus back up, but it meant my mam was clock watching and reliant on us coming out of the shops as the bus was due. Once my first sibling came along and a pram was needed, the bus just wasn't an option at all.
Needless to say, in the early 90s the decision to become a two-car household was made. 

Fast forward 30 years and not much has changed for the better.
The 26, 183, 551, 721, 726, 727, 777 and Chester based minibus are all long gone. The 25 (what was the 725) is clearly viewed as second rate and whilst the 82 enters Vigo and stops at the end of my old street in one direction, it's only good if you fancy a trip to the Galleries or hanging around bus stops in Birtley.
Nexus to their credit have secured the 23 and TB14 - but they're not that frequent. 
Car use has gone through the roof and instead of each household having one car if they're lucky - they now have at least 2.

But yeah, WiFi, fancy tables and bus priority measures will fix things

(20 Dec 2020, 8:03 pm)Andreos1 wrote I've followed a similar pattern in the past, with the last three houses I've bought. 
Made very little difference in the grand scheme of things, as with two of those houses we lost a number of links - including direct ones to Newcastle.

When I bought a house in Durham, the motorway, station and bus routes were all factors. 

However our priorities could be different to someone elses. Schools, nightlife, retail, employment and whatever else might be the things someone else looks at and public transport may be at the very bottom of the list.
If public transport is at the bottom of the list, operators can either do something about it and make the provision appealing (see the mention of the new estate in Birtley and the ludicrous one way loop of the 81/82 which means residents can't use the bus to the shops and the decision to increase journey times on the 25) or just not bother. 

I've not lived in Birtley for almost 30 years, but having returned on a regular basis to see friends and family the transport provision is one I've kept an eye on. 
As a kid growing up, there was the 26, 721, 727 and later the 777 which stopped 5/10mins away.
The 551 was a bit further to walk, as was the 725, 726, 183 and a minibus which ran up Vigo Lane and operated between Chester and Washington (can't remember the number). 
The number of cars per household was a lot lower than now - yet there wasn't a bus which entered the estate and made life easier or stopped my Mam dragging me down to Presto and then back up Harras Bank.
There was the option of getting a bus back up, but it meant my mam was clock watching and reliant on us coming out of the shops as the bus was due. Once my first sibling came along and a pram was needed, the bus just wasn't an option at all.
Needless to say, in the early 90s the decision to become a two-car household was made. 

Fast forward 30 years and not much has changed for the better.
The 26, 183, 551, 721, 726, 727, 777 and Chester based minibus are all long gone. The 25 (what was the 725) is clearly viewed as second rate and whilst the 82 enters Vigo and stops at the end of my old street in one direction, it's only good if you fancy a trip to the Galleries or hanging around bus stops in Birtley.
Nexus to their credit have secured the 23 and TB14 - but they're not that frequent. 
Car use has gone through the roof and instead of each household having one car if they're lucky - they now have at least 2.

But yeah, WiFi, fancy tables and bus priority measures will fix things

I suppose it's probably because I have the anti-car mindset rather than the anti-public transport mindset that every bugger else seems to have!
But also, I think access to good public transport also helps with those other priorities.
If access to your workplace is important, maybe having a 10 minute bus ride could be more appealing than living closer but being stuck in traffic for 20 minutes.
If access to nightlife is important, having a bus directly into your city of choice could make that happen
For me, having a house 5 miles away from the Metrocentre but with good public transport links would be far more convenient than being 1 mile away but without any public transport at all.

And I definitely agree about new housing estates, they need to be designed with public transport in mind. And with the size of some of these new estates, you need a bus just to get to the main road!
I almost get the impression that with all the tight bends they're designed to NOT allow easy access for buses!

And on your point about the WiFi and fancy tables, I think they do have a place on longer, already established routes, and if we're to believe what GNE say it does seem to work. 

I know not everyone is like me, but if the X21 didn't have tables so I could do work on the go, I would think about getting a car and saving the extra hour the bus takes.

I think for routes like the Angel, the they don't make as much sense, because if you're going the full route, you'd just use the X21 instead.

(20 Dec 2020, 8:38 pm)streetdeckfan wrote I suppose it's probably because I have the anti-car mindset rather than the anti-public transport mindset that every bugger else seems to have!
But also, I think access to good public transport also helps with those other priorities.
If access to your workplace is important, maybe having a 10 minute bus ride could be more appealing than living closer but being stuck in traffic for 20 minutes.
If access to nightlife is important, having a bus directly into your city of choice could make that happen
For me, having a house 5 miles away from the Metrocentre but with good public transport links would be far more convenient than being 1 mile away but without any public transport at all.

And I definitely agree about new housing estates, they need to be designed with public transport in mind. And with the size of some of these new estates, you need a bus just to get to the main road!
I almost get the impression that with all the tight bends they're designed to NOT allow easy access for buses!

And on your point about the WiFi and fancy tables, I think they do have a place on longer, already established routes, and if we're to believe what GNE say it does seem to work.  

I know not everyone is like me, but if the X21 didn't have tables so I could do work on the go, I would think about getting a car and saving the extra hour the bus takes.

I think for routes like the Angel, the they don't make as much sense, because if you're going the full route, you'd just use the X21 instead.

The potential market attracted by tables and WiFi will be limited by virtue of the population of the routes they serve.
There's only so many people who can fit on to a bus and the frequency can only be increased if demand exceeds the offer. 

If they look to open up new markets or serve markets which are under-served, then the potential can be far greater.

As it stands, operators are putting their money on the WiFi and fancy tables. They think that's what people want.
I think those people open to using public transport, want a bus which will meet their needs, taking them to where they need and want to be.

It goes back to needs, wants and expectations. Those passengers who board the X21 may have their expectations exceeded by the WiFi and fancy tables. 
The ones who can't get a bus anywhere, are still looking for their needs and wants to be even considered.

Amazon at folly park site is big enough to be an airport!

(21 Dec 2020, 2:43 pm)Andreos1 wrote The potential market attracted by tables and WiFi will be limited by virtue of the population of the routes they serve.
There's only so many people who can fit on to a bus and the frequency can only be increased if demand exceeds the offer. 

If they look to open up new markets or serve markets which are under-served, then the potential can be far greater.

As it stands, operators are putting their money on the WiFi and fancy tables. They think that's what people want.
I think those people open to using public transport, want a bus which will meet their needs, taking them to where they need and want to be.

It goes back to needs, wants and expectations. Those passengers who board the X21 may have their expectations exceeded by the WiFi and fancy tables. 
The ones who can't get a bus anywhere, are still looking for their needs and wants to be even considered.

But arguably the cost of installing the WiFi and fancy tables is significantly lower than launching new routes, which require new vehicles, new drivers etc. so while I agree the potential is far greater, it also has a much more significant outlay and a lot more risk.

I personally think that the underserved areas are probably more suitable for the independents rather than the big groups, they have much lower overheads so a route that isn't viable for the likes of GNE and Arriva could be profitable for the likes of Weardale or Stanley.
But then you have the issue of ticketing, especially outside of T&W where multi-operator tickets are basically non-existent.
I believe that is one of the key objectives NE-Bus and once COVID is under control hopefully they can sort something out.