North East Buses

Hi all

Seeing as there seems to be much confusion over what meets the DDA regulations and what doesn't, and the dates etc for vehicles, I thought I would put a thread together to explain it all and therefore for discussion on various points.

The Regulations apply to any public service vehicle with a capacity exceeding 22 passengers used to provide a local or scheduled service. Here is a quick guide that I have written but you can find the full regulations here

Priority Floor Area 
Free of steps
Floor not to slope more than 3 deg, 5 deg in door area(s)
All floors need to be slip resistant

Contain at least 4 marked priority seats which must have a partition in front of it
Priority seats should not be moveable or tip up, and should only face the front or rear
Cushion width not less than 400mm, not above 500mm from floor

Gangways
Width of no less than 450mm upto a height of 1400mm from floor
Width of no less than 550mm at heights above 1400mm from floor
Vertical handrails must be provided along at least one side of gangway, at intervals of not less than 1050mm
Horizontal handrail from the door area to the priority seats, at a height between 800mm-900mm with minimum gaps where possible

Steps
should have contrasting colour edges
Entrance level must be no more than 250mm from the ground

Handrails
Horizontal handrail must be provided between 800mm-900mm from the ground on both sides
Horizontal handrail at intervals not more than 300mm from the door area to the designated wheelchair space
Handrails must have a diameter of not less than 30mm, not more than 35mm
No less than 45mm between the handrail and any other part of the vehicle
Contrasting colour

Bell pushes (communication device)
Must be within reach of every priority seat
Adjacent to no less than every third row of seats
No higher than 1200mm from floor for seated passengers
No higher than 1500mm from floor for standing passengers
Contrasting colour
When pressed, activate an audible and visual device (on each deck in case of double decks) that is visible to the majority of passengers

Kneeling system
Must be operational
Must be able to be stopped/reversible immediately by driver
Not allow vehicle to drive away while lowered

Destination Displays
On front of vehicle (route number & destination)
On nearside of vehicle (route number & destination) - between 1.2m (lower edge) and 2.5m (upper edge) height from the ground
Route number should be to the right of the front display
Displays showing both ends of the route simultaneously should be avoided

On rear of vehicle (route number only) - centrally above/below rear window no more than 2.5m above ground

Route numbers no less than 200mm height on front/rear displays
Route numbers no less than 70mm height on side display
Characters should contrast with background
Must be illuminated

Destination display must show characters no less than 125mm height on front, 70mm on side
Characters should contrast with background
Must be illuminated
Destinations must not be written in all capital letters

Dates for vehicles to comply
1st January 2015 - Single deck buses weighing less than 7.5 tonnes
1st January 2016 - Single deck buses weighing more than 7.5 tonnes
1st January 2017 - Double deck buses
1st January 2020 - Single deck & Double deck Coaches 

So a destination can have scrolling via points then.....

(04 Jan 2015, 6:03 pm)citaro5284 wrote [ -> ]So a destination can have scrolling via points then.....

The wording is "commercial advertising should not detract" from the clarity of the destinations and that "Other major points on the route can be included but they should not detract from the clarity of the ultimate destination" 

Interesting. So if any of a vehicle's three destination displays fail, the vehicle should be removed from service immediately, as it's not DDA compliant? 

(04 Jan 2015, 6:06 pm)tyresmoke wrote [ -> ]The wording is "commercial advertising should not detract" from the clarity of the destinations and that "Other major points on the route can be included but they should not detract from the clarity of the ultimate destination" 

So Stagecoach's E400Hs aren't compliant then, as there's a vinyl that partially obstructs the offside end of the front destination display?

Well Scarlet Band fall short of many of the destination rules.

Many of the Solos have the service number on the left instead of the right.

The 55 reg ex Park and Ride Solos have roller destination equipment but never display anything and there is no destinations on the blinds.

Older Solos with out of date roller blinds and often just display SERVICE on the blind.

The Pink Bus YT51 EAW has no side destination equipment.

Also I don't think the main destination should be scrolling along eg. Durham North Road on the X49.

Interesting to see nothing on the destination/number colour scheme specific to dyslexia or for those who are colour blind.
Granted, it says the details should contrast, but there are specific colours which work better than others.
Ditto with the font/typeface.

(04 Jan 2015, 9:32 pm)Andreos1 wrote [ -> ]Interesting to see nothing on the destination/number colour scheme specific to dyslexia or for those who are colour blind.
Granted, it says the details should contrast, but there are specific colours which work better than others.
Ditto with the font/typeface.

I remember at my primary school, there was a few kids in my year who struggled to read anything unless they had a specific colour on top of the piece of paper to read it through.

Red, yellow, green... Depended on the person. Could it be that there's nothing about the colour scheme of destination displays because there's not one colour which caters for everyone?

Just wondering, does the bit about the service number being to the right of the destination apply to the rear destination (if applicable), as the rear display on 7524 has the route number on the left with the destination on the left.

(08 Jan 2015, 6:44 pm)mb134 wrote [ -> ]Just wondering, does the bit about the service number being to the right of the destination apply to the rear destination (if applicable), as the rear display on 7524 has the route number on the left with the destination on the left.

Rear numbers with a destination are best on the left, closest to the kerb.

(08 Jan 2015, 10:04 pm)tyresmoke wrote [ -> ]Rear numbers with a destination are best on the left, closest to the kerb.

Ah right okay  just made me wonder with the thing about the one on the front being on the right, also as the others (that actually display the full thing) display theirs on the right. 

http://rustyoldrubbish.blogspot.co.uk/20...ustry.html

Is DDA killing the bus industry?

(15 Aug 2015, 3:16 am)citaro5284 wrote [ -> ]http://rustyoldrubbish.blogspot.co.uk/20...ustry.html

Is DDA killing the bus industry?

I'm going to agree in some way....


Some designs for buses has got worse... StreetDecker is one of those...

Companies can't afford to buy DDA buses - massive batches....

Although

They help people with disabilities 
The elderly 

AND

People with pushchairs think they the right to be first in line for a space to

...as my nana says: I remember putting the pushchairs down in 3 foot snow in a snow storm and having 10 bags of shopping... its not bloody hard, people these days are lazy.

The Disability Discrimination Act was superseded 5 years ago for a start. Its the Equality Act these days...

And no. The PSVAR is no more than a list of reasonable adjustments, to make buses available for everyone. That can only be a good thing. On the same token, an employer would be required to make similar adjustments, if they had disabled employees.

(15 Aug 2015, 6:55 am)Michael wrote [ -> ]People with pushchairs think they the right to be first in line for a space to

...as my nana says: I remember putting the pushchairs down in 3 foot snow in a snow storm and having 10 bags of shopping... its not bloody hard, people these days are lazy.

But just because people were expected to fold up pushchairs and struggle to board buses with kids and shopping in tow 10, 20 or 30 years ago doesn't mean the bus industry should live in the past and expect everyone to do the same without being proactive and providing progressive solutions to problems arising from poor accessibility. 

As many families with babies/toddlers tend to choose the car over the bus, I can't help but think that this sort of attitude is targeted towards a specific demographic who are forced to use public transport.

(15 Aug 2015, 6:55 am)Michael wrote [ -> ]I'm going to agree in some way....


Some designs for buses has got worse... StreetDecker is one of those...

Companies can't afford to buy DDA buses - massive batches....

Although

They help people with disabilities 
The elderly 

AND

People with pushchairs think they the right to be first in line for a space to

...as my nana says: I remember putting the pushchairs down in 3 foot snow in a snow storm and having 10 bags of shopping... its not bloody hard, people these days are lazy.

And many mothers never left the house. I bought a buggy for big'un that I could fold one handed but still couldn't handle it plus a very wriggly toddler and it was useless in Durham. Forget carrying any actual shopping. 

I could get the Peterlee as the 21 at the time went on to Sunderland and was required to have more modern buses, but it was rarely worth the bother.

I wholly agree that all buses should be low-floor. What I don't agree with is how low-floor vehicles which are perfectly accessible aren't DDA-compliant for the most minor things which barely inconvenience disabled passengers.

Modifying these vehicles (or replacing them with vehicles which are DDA-compliant) would be a huge cost to a small business. What's better - a non-DDA compliant low-floor single decker turning up, or no bus at all?

(15 Aug 2015, 9:29 am)Dan wrote [ -> ]I wholly agree that all buses should be low-floor. What I don't agree with is how low-floor vehicles which are perfectly accessible aren't DDA-compliant for the most minor things which barely inconvenience disabled passengers.

Modifying these vehicles (or replacing them with vehicles which are DDA-compliant) would be a huge cost to a small business. What's better - a non-DDA compliant low-floor single decker turning up, or no bus at all?

Minor things to you and I, may be a major thing to persons affected by it. I'd reckon there's proper reason and research behind everything included in the Equality Act and the PSVAR. Looking at the PSVAR specifically, a lot of operators are only doing the minimum required, rather than applying best practice. Though you'd expect modern orders to only be supplied as best practice.

I don't buy the non-compliant bus vs. no bus at all argument. If the bus isn't compliant, then for those affected by the element of non-compliance, the bus hasn't turned up for them.

(15 Aug 2015, 9:45 am)aureolin wrote [ -> ]Minor things to you and I, may be a major thing to persons affected by it. I'd reckon there's proper reason and research behind everything included in the Equality Act and the PSVAR. Looking at the PSVAR specifically, a lot of operators are only doing the minimum required, rather than applying best practice. Though you'd expect modern orders to only be supplied as best practice.

I don't buy the non-compliant bus vs. no bus at all argument. If the bus isn't compliant, then for those affected by the element of non-compliance, the bus hasn't turned up for them.

Hardly anything has changed on Go North East's now DDA-compliant Volvo B10BLEs - sorry, I cannot see the removal of one seat and a few further minor modifications being of great assistance to disabled passengers.

You questioned yourself if the Merits were DDA-compliant. These have a more awkward seating layout than any Volvo B10BLE I've been on, yet look which one isn't DDA-compliant...

Stand by what I said before... If a disabled passenger is not affected by something which makes a bus non-DDA compliant - what's better, that bus, or none at all (on what could potentially be a lifeline service to some passengers, given that a large number of independent operators do operate lifeline services).

Again, I really do support all buses being low-floor, but DDA compliance really isn't limited to this.

Also, I can't understand why the Lolynes aren't DDA compliant. Compared to the Presidents, the Lolynes are much more accessible and you hear a lot of people complaining when the Presidents are on the 1 and 17 due to the lack of wheelchair room (1 small space compared to 2 spaces on the Lolynes) and also lack of seats downstairs.

(15 Aug 2015, 9:51 am)Dan wrote [ -> ]Hardly anything has changed on Go North East's now DDA-compliant Volvo B10BLEs - sorry, I cannot see the removal of one seat and a few further minor modifications being of great assistance to disabled passengers.

Stand by what I said before... If a disabled passenger is not affected by something which makes a bus non-DDA compliant - what's better, that bus, or none at all (on what could potentially be a lifeline service to some passengers, given that a large number of independent operators do operate lifeline services).

There'll never be some generic catch-all for the typical disabled passenger though. What may affect one person with disabilities, may not affect another with disabilities. Of course, those not affected by it would always say 'that bus', but the Equality Act is all about inclusion - not exclusion. 

I can't personally see why the removal of a seat makes a difference either, but I find that things aren't always as black and white as they seem. Who am I to question a set of regulations, that someone a lot more qualified than I am, has come up with? It of course doesn't remove my curiosity. 

Village shops can also provide a lifeline service to locals. Having a step entrance and doorway not wide enough for a wheelchair may benefit the majority, but it'd exclude wheelchair users. It also amounts to indirect discrimination.

(15 Aug 2015, 9:57 am)Tom wrote [ -> ]Also, I can't understand why the Lolynes aren't DDA compliant.

Is the seat height from the floor compliant with the PSVAR?

(15 Aug 2015, 9:57 am)Tom wrote [ -> ]Also, I can't understand why the Lolynes aren't DDA compliant. Compared to the Presidents, the Lolynes are much more accessible and you hear a lot of people complaining when the Presidents are on the 1 and 17 due to the lack of wheelchair room (1 small space compared to 2 spaces on the Lolynes) and also lack of seats downstairs.

I'm currently sat on a lolyne. Access to the wheelchair space is tight and the stairs to the top deck make it inaccessible to a lot of people. I struggle on them even when the bus is stationary and I can't carry anything down them.

Seat height is lovely, but I'm a short arse who hates my feet not firm on the floor

I don't think DDA is affecting the bus industry too much. I'd say that:

- High fuel costs
- Euro emission laws

Are affecting the industry. If the D10-245 was mounted into a Gemini 2 body with a ZF Ecomat, you'd have the perfect bus that could do everything from a short hop around the Toon to a (100?) mile stint to Berwick with ease.

When I was in a wheelchair the MAN's SC had in Sunderland were easier than the Enviro to get on!

I have just passed the Scarlet Band E200 in Chester le Street and notice that it has no side or rear destination displays. With less than a day to go for the next phase of PSVAR they need to get a move on if this vehicle is going to be used next week.

(31 Dec 2015, 1:50 pm)GuyParkRoyal wrote [ -> ]I have just passed the Scarlet Band E200 in Chester le Street and notice that it has no side or rear destination displays. With less than a day to go for the next phase of PSVAR they need to get a move on if this vehicle is going to be used next week.

Both YN04LWM and YG55YGL are the same. Photos below.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/stueybish/...ateposted/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/stueybish/...otostream/

I know they don't have to be compliant until tomorrow, but talk about leaving things until the last minute!

(31 Dec 2015, 1:50 pm)GuyParkRoyal wrote [ -> ]I have just passed the Scarlet Band E200 in Chester le Street and notice that it has no side or rear destination displays. With less than a day to go for the next phase of PSVAR they need to get a move on if this vehicle is going to be used next week.

The vehicle in question is MX10KNW.

It certainly used to have a side destination display, and it looked like it used to have a rear destination screen too, but both had been removed (you could see the gap left behind with nothing there).

(31 Dec 2015, 1:56 pm)Adrian wrote [ -> ]Both YN04LWM and YG55YGL are the same. Photos below.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/stueybish/...ateposted/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/stueybish/...otostream/

I know they don't have to be compliant until tomorrow, but talk about leaving things until the last minute!

It's not just Scarlet Band!

Whilst the destination displays are fitted to Go North East and Arriva North East vehicles, several do not work. In just a short ten-minute trip to Sunderland City Centre today; I spotted one vehicle without a working rear destination display, another without working side/rear destination displays, and another with a distorted front display. Whilst the third was legible, and probably compliant with the regulations, it certainly isn't good practice to have it going around like that.

I cannot see operators being 100% compliant tomorrow (or the next day, given that nobody operates tomorrow), that's for sure.

(31 Dec 2015, 2:04 pm)Dan wrote [ -> ]The vehicle in question is MX10KNW.

It certainly used to have a side destination display, and it looked like it used to have a rear destination screen too, but both had been removed (you could see the gap left behind with nothing there).


It's not just Scarlet Band!

Whilst the destination displays are fitted to Go North East and Arriva North East vehicles, several do not work. In just a short ten-minute trip to Sunderland City Centre today; I spotted one vehicle without a working rear destination display, another without working side/rear destination displays, and another with a distorted front display. Whilst the third was legible, and probably compliant with the regulations, it certainly isn't good practice to have it going around like that.

I cannot see operators being 100% compliant tomorrow (or the next day, given that nobody operates tomorrow), that's for sure.

Neither can I, only Stagecoach are ready.

(31 Dec 2015, 2:04 pm)Dan wrote [ -> ]It's not just Scarlet Band!

Whilst the destination displays are fitted to Go North East and Arriva North East vehicles, several do not work. In just a short ten-minute trip to Sunderland City Centre today; I spotted one vehicle without a working rear destination display, another without working side/rear destination displays, and another with a distorted front display. Whilst the third was legible, and probably compliant with the regulations, it certainly isn't good practice to have it going around like that.

I cannot see operators being 100% compliant tomorrow (or the next day, given that nobody operates tomorrow), that's for sure.

It'll be interesting to see if any depots send non-compliant vehicles out on the 2nd. If the worst comes to the worst, do they send a bus with a knackered rear destination out, or just bite the bullet and record the lost mileage? 

(31 Dec 2015, 2:19 pm)DanPicken wrote [ -> ]Neither can I, only Stagecoach are ready.

Have you been round the depots to do an audit, Dan? I'd noticed a MAN yesterday, where the illumination on the front flipdot wasn't working. That wouldn't be 'ready', would it?

(31 Dec 2015, 2:24 pm)Adrian wrote [ -> ]It'll be interesting to see if any depots send non-compliant vehicles out on the 2nd. If the worst comes to the worst, do they send a bus with a knackered rear destination out, or just bite the bullet and record the lost mileage? 


Have you been round the depots to do an audit, Dan? I'd noticed a MAN yesterday, where the illumination on the front flipdot wasn't working. That wouldn't be 'ready', would it?

BIB#1 They'd probably just send it out as otherwise some services could have a limited service.

BIB#2 No, I haven't but thats one compared to the amount GNE/ANE have.